working with 70-200 IS

magicpic · December 16, 2007

This is the second time I used this lens and I was just wondering if to get the photo sharp everytime that it takes practice...look at my photos..800ISO, flash ETTL ss80 with around 2.8-3.2 ff
you can go to this site to get the camera information:
http://widgetr.smugmug.com/gallery/4001889#232815001

thanks for your comments janis

Glenn NK · December 16, 2007

Janis:

It could be the IS is not working, or maybe a DOF problem, but without knowing the shooting distance for each focal length, calculating DOF is difficult. But at f/2.8, there isn't much DOF.

Have you checked to see if the IS is working? Activate the focus, and "bounce" the end of the lens" a bit - you should be able to see the IS working.

Glenn

magicpic · December 16, 2007

Glenn NK wrote:

Janis:

It could be the IS is not working, or maybe a DOF problem, but without knowing the shooting distance for each focal length, calculating DOF is difficult. But at f/2.8, there isn't much DOF.

Have you checked to see if the IS is working? Activate the focus, and "bounce" the end of the lens" a bit - you should be able to see the IS working.

Glenn

thanks I will try it..janis

ziggy53 · December 16, 2007

Janis,

Those were tough lighting conditions.

I suggest that you really need a powerful flash and some light modifiers, and probably a way to get the external flash up and off the camera like using a flash bracket.

The photo of the two girls is pretty sharp, but the combination of mixed lighting and the direction of the light made for a tough situation.

Here is my take on a possible adjustment to the image (I will remove and delete if you wish):

In this next image, the father and daughter (maybe) is similar lighting but the direction of the light is more to my liking. Color balance was still a problem and I had to guess some of the tones. the background was distracting as well, so I tried to reduce the impact somewhat. The image is front-focused, but without knowing your focus technique it's hard to know what went wrong. (Again, I will remove and delete if you wish.)

On all of the images I used a mid-tone sharpen action and then some curves and both general and localized USM. The father/daughter also had some shadow recovery. Neat Image was used to help control the noise.

Zanotti · December 16, 2007

With a shutter speed of 1/50 and focal length of above 70mm, it is extremely tough to hand hold.

Suggest you use HS sync of the flash and get the shutter speeds up!

Good luck,

Z

jdryan3 · December 16, 2007

ziggy53 wrote:

... but without knowing your focus technique it's hard to know what went wrong.

I too would like to know your technique. Are you using One-shot or AI Servo? I'm not familiar with the 20D, but my 5D has a custom function that allows me to separate focus from the shutter button (Cf4 I think). Are you shooting f/2.8 because it is so dark or because you want a very shallow DOF?

Typically, the rule of thumb for the 'max' hand hold shutter speed is 1/FL, where FL is Focal Length. Safe is one stop faster. IS should allow 2-3 stops faster, so 1/50s @ 125 (the first picture) should be OK. But I use the same lens and without good technique, hand holding will definitely have some shake after awhile - it is a heavy lens.

Ziggy and Znaotti have some great suggestions, but I was wondering what kind of flash you are using? Does the 20D have a pop-up, or are you using a shoe mounted flash? As mentioned earlier, without know how far away you are, it is hard to figure out the best flash technique.

It looks like you are shooting everything manual, so if you are fairly close, your flash should allow you to get back to 1/125s or 1/200s. It doesn't seem the background is of any consequence, so you may not care if you don't see any of it, and a slower shutter speed wouldn't be needed.

magicpic · December 17, 2007

jdryan3 wrote:

I too would like to know your technique. Are you using One-shot or AI Servo? I'm not familiar with the 20D, but my 5D has a custom function that allows me to separate focus from the shutter button (Cf4 I think). Are you shooting f/2.8 because it is so dark or because you want a very shallow DOF?

Typically, the rule of thumb for the 'max' hand hold shutter speed is 1/FL, where FL is Focal Length. Safe is one stop faster. IS should allow 2-3 stops faster, so 1/50s @ 125 (the first picture) should be OK. But I use the same lens and without good technique, hand holding will definitely have some shake after awhile - it is a heavy lens.

Ziggy and Znaotti have some great suggestions, but I was wondering what kind of flash you are using? Does the 20D have a pop-up, or are you using a shoe mounted flash? As mentioned earlier, without know how far away you are, it is hard to figure out the best flash technique.

It looks like you are shooting everything manual, so if you are fairly close, your flash should allow you to get back to 1/125s or 1/200s. It doesn't seem the background is of any consequence, so you may not care if you don't see any of it, and a slower shutter speed wouldn't be needed.

I was on manuel...the 580 flash was on the camera..I have ordered a bracket but do not have it yet. If you go on my web site you can see what setting I used ..the photos were taken in a big airplane hanger and the light was terrible. I put the flash on the setting to let in some of the ambient light and it the IS I thought I could go down some stops..I am still learning about lighting and the flash stuff...I am a natural light person...thanks janis

http://widgetr.smugmug.com/gallery/4001889#232815001

Scott_Quier · December 17, 2007

magicpic wrote:

I was on manuel...the 580 flash was on the camera..I have ordered a bracket but do not have it yet. If you go on my web site you can see what setting I used ..the photos were taken in a big airplane hanger and the light was terrible. I put the flash on the setting to let in some of the ambient light and it the IS I thought I could go down some stops..I am still learning about lighting and the flash stuff...I am a natural light person...thanks janis

The flash bracket will not fix the problems I see here though it will help with other issues.

I've been to the gallery and noticed a couple of things

High ISO can make the photo a little grainy and this can lead to less than sharp edges.
Slow shutter speed for the focal length being used, but not too slow if IS is enganged properly.
All the images you posted here were taken at f/2.8. The first three were taken at focal length 75mm (+/- 5mm), but the last one was at 170mm.

I think you may have two or three issues in these photos

These photos are just that much underexposed. That's going to make the grain that much worse and make it harder to get the sharp edges at contrast boundaries that you are looking for (that we all would like to see!).
In the images posted here, you have a very shallow DOF. In your last photo posted here, the guy's thumb is in focus but the little girl's face just misses.
The IS on the lens takes time to fully engage. Your camera can, sometimes, get a focus lock and allow an exposure well before the IS settles down. I don't know how fast you went from focus lock to exposure, but if IS didn't have a chance to settle you may be getting fuzzy results due to the IS element in the lens still moving around on you.

cmason · December 17, 2007

Even though it is IS, I do think that shooting a long lens at shutter speeds BELOW the magic hand-held speed of 1/60th is gonna cause fuziness regardless of technology. Even more, for many of these you are shooting at 1/50 with focal lengths of around 95mm or so. That is a recipe for either disaster or a tripod.

Ideally, 95mm needs 1/100 speed at a minimum. If IS gets you 2 stops, then you can go 1/60th in a pinch, but you seem to be going below that at times.

magicpic · December 17, 2007

cmason wrote:

Even though it is IS, I do think that shooting a long lens at shutter speeds BELOW the magic hand-held speed of 1/60th is gonna cause fuziness regardless of technology. Even more, for many of these you are shooting at 1/50 with focal lengths of around 95mm or so. That is a recipe for either disaster or a tripod.

Ideally, 95mm needs 1/100 speed at a minimum. If IS gets you 2 stops, then you can go 1/60th in a pinch, but you seem to be going below that at times.

thanks for the comments...I think you are right about this all...I think that I need to take my time and practice on what the focus is..and looking at the histagram on my camera and comparing it to the monitor histagram, it seems that it is a little off...the histagram on the camera at the time seemed fine....I will work on that..and I will be more conscious about the exposure and the ss next time...thanks for the comments...so maybe the lens is ok and I will need to work a little harder.....thanks again...janis

rwells · December 18, 2007

Janis,

As to the lens sharpness, I would take some simple test shots to verify that the lens is not having back-focus issues, or IS issues. (which I doubt)

Also, are you shooting in the "One Shot" mode, or "AI Servo"? AI Servo is not a good mode to shoot for static subjects. It's expecting something to be moving, so it searches a little. One Shot does not. Also, and I'm not trying to be coy, but you are holding the shutter button half down to keep the IS engaged, right? (don't get mad: make sure the IS switch on the lens is engaged)

Also, you are using the center focus point, right? At f/2.8, just make sure you focus on what you want in focus. IE: The eye, or whatever.

I've shot a little over 80k pictures this year, and most were with that same lens. I'm sure with that many exposures I've gotten fairly good at holding that heavy lens, but in my opinion, you shouldn't be having an issue at 1/80 second shutter speed.

Here is a hand-held shot I took with this lens at 1/2 second.
While it is not tack sharp, it is acceptable. (for this test) IS does work.

Date Modified 2007-09-16 02:09:31
Date Taken 2007-09-12 11:09:08
Camera Canon EOS 30D
Exposure Time0.5s (1/2)
Aperture f/29.0
ISO100
Focal Length 98mm (156.8mm in 35mm)
Photo Dimensions 2336 x 3504
File Name IMG_1059.jpg
File Size 1.03 MB

Detailed

Flashflash did not fire, compulsory flash mode
Exposure Program aperture priority
Exposure Bias0 EV
Exposure Mode auto
White Balance auto
Color SpacesRGB

As to the exposure and using your flash. Do a search, there is a wealth of information about this very topic. You'll be taking great exposures in no time

Hope some of this helps you out.

Tee Why · December 18, 2007

I think the lens is fine and the limiting factor may be the shooter. Some have mentioned that the shutter speed may be too low, but in Manual mode with the flash on, the subjects are exposed by the flash which is very quick and shutter speeds will not make a big difference. What will happen as you "drag the shutter" is that the things in the background may be blurry or show subject movement as the flash cannot reach that far or wide and hence the background is exposed by the ambient light.

If you use ambient light and flash to "fill in" the subject, then you have to account for the shutter speed rule to avoid camera shake. Even with IS, if the subject is moving, using a shutter speed of under 1/60 or so may introduce some subject movement blur.

I personally think some of the softness is due to focus issue as if you don't make a conscious attempt to focus on the eyes then you may be focusing on other things and the eyes come out a bit out of focus. Quick way to check is to see if there is anything in focus, if so, usually a focusing issue, if not it could be due to subject/camera movement. Not perfect, but a decent way to check.

magicpic · December 18, 2007

Tee Why wrote:

I think the lens is fine and the limiting factor may be the shooter. Some have mentioned that the shutter speed may be too low, but in Manual mode with the flash on, the subjects are exposed by the flash which is very quick and shutter speeds will not make a big difference. What will happen as you "drag the shutter" is that the things in the background may be blurry or show subject movement as the flash cannot reach that far or wide and hence the background is exposed by the ambient light.

If you use ambient light and flash to "fill in" the subject, then you have to account for the shutter speed rule to avoid camera shake. Even with IS, if the subject is moving, using a shutter speed of under 1/60 or so may introduce some subject movement blur.

I personally think some of the softness is due to focus issue as if you don't make a conscious attempt to focus on the eyes then you may be focusing on other things and the eyes come out a bit out of focus. Quick way to check is to see if there is anything in focus, if so, usually a focusing issue, if not it could be due to subject/camera movement. Not perfect, but a decent way to check.

Ok It probably is the shooter...but anyway I just got the 70-200 and learning to use it so to engage the IS I hold down the shutter button...plus
which do I use the stabilizer mode 1 or 2? what is the 1.4 and the 2.5mm? thanks for your help...janis (learning)

Scott_Quier · December 18, 2007

magicpic wrote:

Ok It probably is the shooter...but anyway I just got the 70-200 and learning to use it so to engage the IS I hold down the shutter button...plus
which do I use the stabilizer mode 1 or 2? what is the 1.4 and the 2.5mm? thanks for your help...janis (learning)

IS Mode 1 is the "standard" in that it dampens movement in two directions.
IS Mode 2 "disables" the horizontal dampening so that you can do effective panning shots.
I believe the 1.4 and 2.5 you are referring to here is on of the switches on the barrel of the lens. If so, this controls the facility with which the lens focuses either close (1.4 -> infinity) or further away (2.5m -> infinity). I may have the details wrong here as I'm working from memory.

Also still learning - aren't we all?

CatOne · December 20, 2007

Scott_Quier wrote:

IS Mode 1 is the "standard" in that it dampens movement in two directions.

IS Mode 2 "disables" the horizontal dampening so that you can do effective panning shots.

I believe the 1.4 and 2.5 you are referring to here is on of the switches on the barrel of the lens. If so, this controls the facility with which the lens focuses either close (1.4 -> infinity) or further away (2.5m -> infinity). I may have the details wrong here as I'm working from memory.

Also still learning - aren't we all?

Yes, the 1.4/2.5 button controls minimum focus distance. The 2.5m->infinity is substantially faster to re-focus for far-away subjects in the case of "missed AF" because the lens doesn't sweep back and forth across its entire AF range; just half of it.

XHawkeye · December 20, 2007

Shooting in M or P will let you lower the iso. I shoot in M with the iso 200 or 400 and use the dial on the 580 to change the flash compensation as needed.

I use Derb flip-it but the 580 has a bounce card, pull it out and experiment putting the flash head at different angles.

How P, Tv, Av and M modes handle metering when using a flash.
http://photonotes.org/articles/eos-flash/index2.html#confusion

A 30D, 70-200 IS f2.8, 580 & Custom Bracket weighs at 8 lbs 5 oz. Yes, is heavy but it makes the 24-70 combination (7 lbs) seem light.

working with 70-200 IS

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