selling CDs

Elaine

I think there are some strong opinions on selling CDs with edited originals on them. I know I've read some discussions about it here somewhere. I keep going back and forth in my mind...if you sell a CD, you're giving up any quality control over future prints, which is even more of a concern than the future profit from print sales, I think. I guess if I'm going to sell a CD, then I need to somehow be compensated for the risk involved in letting those images out of my hands. Does that make sense or am I thinking about this all wrong? I really have no idea how to figure a reasonable price for a CD. Of course, it would depend on the number of images on it, I would think. Do any of you sell CDs and charge an amount per picture?

The nice thing about selling CDs is that customers seem to like them. I've recently made myself a doormat for a couple customers, and I've been reworking my site and planning out my new pricing for next year, and I don't want to be a doormat again! So, I need to nail down some prices and business practices that may cut out some of my clientelle (which is very small at this point anyway). So, I'm trying to figure out if I'll even offer CDs, or just make it prints from Smug or nothin'. And then there is the download option...

OK...enough for this line of questioning! I'd appreciate some experienced feedback!

JDub

I sell original resolution CD's. I used to give them away free, but my profits walked out the door with the CD. I charge based on the amount of images on the CD. Usually it starts at $200 and goes up from there. I have to factor in my print sales loss, because once that original goes out the door, you most likely (from my 12 years experience) will never hear from that customer again. So factor in your print sales loss, to get a starting point for the price of the original CD. I usually average $200 in print sales from every client, so thats how I got my starting point. In saying all this, I hardly ever really sell an original CD, people are thrilled with my presentation of the proofs, and usually order prints at the viewing session (held a week after the photo shoot). I have been very fortunate so far!!

~Jan~

If you sell CD's, sell them for a LOT. You are losing just a TON of sales with CD's, plus you have prints going around that have been printed on home printers, at Wal-mart, etc. and they are telling people they are your pics! I don't know about you, but that's not the word-of-mouth that I want. Obviously I think it's a really bad idea and I'd never do it! If you do decide to do it, decide what you want to make from each session, and price them there. If you want to make only $200 a session, then charge that. If you'd rather make $500 a session, charge that, and so on. I can almost guarantee if you offer a CD they'll buy that and not order many, if any, prints from you, unless the CD is priced high enough to prevent that. Thanks for reading my novel.

Shudderz

your question comes at the prefect time, and I can't wait for more those with more "Business" experience to answer.

Just this morning I had someone call, tell me that they were going to order $70 in prints and the rights to one of the photos, which we had originally agreed upon $40 for. I figure it's the cost of two 8x10s and would recoup the lost income from the print. She wanted to make me an offer of $200 for just a disc of the images in exchange.

I have serious concerns about giving my originals, I loose all control of where they are printed. If someone "resizes" them and messes up the ratio, so that they've "squeezed" a 5x7 ratio picture into an 8x10....then the picture looks bad, they have it printed, someone asks them who their photographer was, and it's MY NAME on it. They won't ask, who resized and printed the photo...they will just ask, who was the photographer, and then MY NAME is mud. Same results if they go have them printed at a local drug store with 1 hour printing that hasn't cleaned their chemicals, or their color profile is screwed up....it's my name on them, not the drug stores.

What kills me is the same person then says they will just order the few and scan them to make wallets...when told they can't do that due to copyrights, I'm told they won't pay $1.50 each wallet for something they're just going to carry around in their wallet for 3 months.......

how do you respond to that? I could refuse to sell them the photos....then my name is mud.....do I just stick to my guns, sell the $70 in prints and the $40 digital file and live with the fact they're going to scan the images?

If I sell them a disc of the 70 images taken during the family sitting for just $200, then I cheat myself out of all of the larger orders I would ever get from a customer. My average orders the past two months has been $400 in prints. I would never be able to charge another customer that...they would all choose the $200 disc. They knew what my prices were when they came to me. I can't change the rules for one person. Change it once, and word of mouth spreads and you have to honor it for everyone.

I have read other photographers charge the cost of 2 8x10s what ever that may be for the rights to the image to make up for lost income...still not sure if it's worth it.

Sam

Elaine,

I took a look at your pricing, and quite frankly at those rates your not protecting any profits by not selling the files.

Based on your prices you could spend 1 1/2 hours driving to and from a location, spend two hours photographing, ?? hours processing / uploading, all for a grand total of a guaranteed $20.00. I would seriously rather give the photography away to someone in need, than charge these rates.

I wouldn't sell a landscape, or other fine art type of image files, but portraits, and event types I absolutely would.

Everyone has to decide for themselves on their business model, but here in the 21st century most people have digital cameras, and are familiar with image files, scanners, print costs etc. I believe the days of holding on to the negatives, and charging a high print price are basically over.

Why not look at charging a sitting / package fee that is sufficient to provide the income you need for the project up front. If your concerned about quality, include a certain number of prints in the package along with a CD of the images.

Try taking a few of your images, and have non photographer friends get them printed at different stores. Don't give them any instructions, and see how they come out. I have done this and overall they came out pretty good.

Sam

~Jan~

Elaine--after reading the previous post, I agree, you are priced WAY too low, girl!! WAY WAY WAY too low. You are better than that!!

Shudderz -- the way to deal with scanning is to charge enough upfront that you're still making the profit you want even if they DO scan. So, if you charge a deposit of $250 the day of the session, you are guaranteed that.I personally don't do this but I should because this IS the way to deal with scanning. Get the money you want out of them, and then scanning doesn't hurt you. It will hurt a little when they are passing out scanned & printed images, but in this day and age there isn't much you can do about that.

Elaine

Sam wrote:

Elaine,

I took a look at your pricing, and quite frankly at those rates your not protecting any profits by not selling the files.

Based on your prices you could spend 1 1/2 hours driving to and from a location, spend two hours photographing, ?? hours processing / uploading, all for a grand total of a guaranteed $20.00. I would seriously rather give the photography away to someone in need, than charge these rates.

I wouldn't sell a landscape, or other fine art type of image files, but portraits, and event types I absolutely would.

Everyone has to decide for themselves on their business model, but here in the 21st century most people have digital cameras, and are familiar with image files, scanners, print costs etc. I believe the days of holding on to the negatives, and charging a high print price are basically over.

Why not look at charging a sitting / package fee that is sufficient to provide the income you need for the project up front. If your concerned about quality, include a certain number of prints in the package along with a CD of the images.

Try taking a few of your images, and have non photographer friends get them printed at different stores. Don't give them any instructions, and see how they come out. I have done this and overall they came out pretty good.

Sam

Yep, my pricing stinks! Thanks for pointing that out! I do say that those prices are only good through today (Dec 31, 2007), and that's why I'm here asking questions so I can re-evaluate and make some changes. You make some interesting points and suggestions...things I will certainly consider. Thanks for weighing-in!

Elaine

I've appreciated hearing how people are dealing with this! Thanks for sharing your own experiences and view points.

gregneil

I agree completely with what Sam said! I'm just starting out myself, but I feel that in order to compete in today's market, you're going to need to figure out a way to sell the files. Younger customers want files to email. To put on myspace. To put on their blogs. And then to make prints, sometimes. Just make sure you charge enough. Don't sell yourself short!

You may consider offering different price points for different sizes... for example, if they just want the files for web use, but not for prints, you could sell them a CD of files for that purpose at appropriate sizes, and retain the originals. If they want full-size images, charge more.

One way to help overcome the print issue is just with a little education. Have some sample prints that you've done yourself, and then have those same prints done at a Wal*Mart, or self-service kiosk somewhere, or a home printer... so you can show how much of a difference it makes. That way the customer understands how much better the prints will look when purchased through you instead of trying to do it themselves.

But really, I think as time goes on, you'll get more referrals from people seeing the pictures you took on someone's blog than losing referrals because someone saw a poorly made print.

~Jan~

I put a few of my favorites from each session my blog. Those aren't full-res files, and they aren't protected. I tell clients they can save those for use on my space, etc. Saving those doesn't give you enough resolution to print more than a 4x6 file, so I'm not hugely concerned about it. Plus, it's watermarked. Just an idea for those wanting Myspace stuff. Actually, I LIKE my pics on myspace w/ my watermark on them! Great advertisement!

Elaine

This may sound like I'm getting off my own topic, but I'm wondering how many images do most photogs offer from, say, a 1 hour family-type session?

I'm struggling with my own value because I don't feel like my keeper rate is high enough yet. I'm thrilled to be able to offer 10 or hopefully 20 pics after a 1 hour session, and somehow that just doesn't seem like enough...not exactly sure why. Editing 20 pictures certainly does take time!

I've been aware that I've been really cheap, but I haven't felt experienced enough or like I'm producing enough to really be able to ramp up my prices. Now that I have some new gear, my confidence has increased.

Of course, my first shoot after I got my new gear was VERY difficult...22 month old who wanted nothing to do with her 3 month old sister! Eeeks! I gave the mom 27 pictures, but she didn't get what she really wanted...the perfect shot of her two girls in front of the Christmas tree. So, I felt like I just didn't deliver that time, which makes it hard to really charge what I should have. I'm totally embarrassed to admit this, but that shoot cost me 1 hour of driving, 2+ hours of shooting, many hours of editing, and then I let her "buy" a CD because she didn't want to pay my ridiculously low Smug print prices (well, she may tell you it was because she wanted her instant prints from Costco...which reminds me...I will do my very best to not do ANY shoots for people after Thanksgiving!!! Time crunch makes people want instant prints for Christmas.). Anyway, my husband says I ended up paying them to let me take pictures of two kids at very difficult ages.

OK..enough of my rant.

~Jan~

Elaine wrote:

This may sound like I'm getting off my own topic, but I'm wondering how many images do most photogs offer from, say, a 1 hour family-type session?

I'm struggling with my own value because I don't feel like my keeper rate is high enough yet. I'm thrilled to be able to offer 10 or hopefully 20 pics after a 1 hour session, and somehow that just doesn't seem like enough...not exactly sure why. Editing 20 pictures certainly does take time!

I've been aware that I've been really cheap, but I haven't felt experienced enough or like I'm producing enough to really be able to ramp up my prices. Now that I have some new gear, my confidence has increased.

Of course, my first shoot after I got my new gear was VERY difficult...22 month old who wanted nothing to do with her 3 month old sister! Eeeks! I gave the mom 27 pictures, but she didn't get what she really wanted...the perfect shot of her two girls in front of the Christmas tree. So, I felt like I just didn't deliver that time, which makes it hard to really charge what I should have. I'm totally embarrassed to admit this, but that shoot cost me 1 hour of driving, 2+ hours of shooting, many hours of editing, and then I let her "buy" a CD because she didn't want to pay my ridiculously low Smug print prices (well, she may tell you it was because she wanted her instant prints from Costco...which reminds me...I will do my very best to not do ANY shoots for people after Thanksgiving!!! Time crunch makes people want instant prints for Christmas.). Anyway, my husband says I ended up paying them to let me take pictures of two kids at very difficult ages.

OK..enough of my rant.

Don't let people push you around like that! This is why you should set a HIGH price for your CD's and stick to it. If someone is balking at YOUR prices, they have a problem. You are better than Walmart but as cheap (or cheaper??).

Plus, it's not your fault her girls didn't cooperate. Offer a reshoot if something like that happens again--not a discounted product.

ShepsMom

Good topic Elaine, i think few of us here on the same boat.

I'll never sell a CD. Look at it this way, if you charge $10-20 1mx digital download, that would be equial same for a cd, right? So, if you have 100 pictures on cd x$10.00, that's $1000.00 , and you're selling it for $200?? + originals?? Math is out here, no one in their mind will pay that for CD. Now, if customer picks pics they want, why not let them digitally d/l from SM?? I don't see a point of CD at all.

My pricess not any better then yours, i'm increasing as of Jan. 2008. i don't have much more experience either.
You all probably will say it's low, low, low...
My one time fee is for 1 hr, including travel and photoshoot. I have my local area pricing, and out of the area pricing up to 50ml.
My prints are sold separate at established price. When SM comes up with package deals, i'll restructure the whole thing. Untill then, i'll stick with what i have.

claudermilk

Good, timely thread. I'm just beginning to face this issue myself. I did the same thing most of us have & sold a CD for too little already. I like the concept of starting the price at my 4x6 price for each file there--gives a reasonable starting point.

firststring74

I don't usually sell digital downloads or any jpg's of my images. Maybe I am selling myself short when I do this, but I feel that if they really liked an image (this happened around christmas) they will order multiples of it (and if I let them digitally download it, that would only be one sale).

But getting back to your question. I did have one gentleman inquire about buying all of the photos I took of his daughter riding this summer (about 52 photos). After much discussion with family/friends I decided to give him a set price of $250 for everything with a release so he could use them as he wanted. Or he could buy individual pics for $10. He thought that was too steep, but in comparison to other horse show photographers I was pretty cheap.

Halliday

Elaine wrote:

This may sound like I'm getting off my own topic, but I'm wondering how many images do most photogs offer from, say, a 1 hour family-type session?

I say about 12 finished, printable images per hour. That's what I say in the contract. I usually deliver about 24 images per hour. Promise low and deliver high.

I just increased my prices this year as well

dogwood

Sam wrote:

Why not look at charging a sitting / package fee that is sufficient to provide the income you need for the project up front. If your concerned about quality, include a certain number of prints in the package along with a CD of the images.

This is what I do. I used to include a CD if the client wanted it, but it's less work for me to upload to a private SM page and let the client download the files themselves. So just today, I decided if they don't want to do that and make their own CD, they can pay me $10 to do it instead. That price will likely go up... just testing the waters at this point.

Just as side note, note that music CD's in stores cost more than itunes downloads with the exact same material minus the CD. In other words, good ol' Apple is actually making it clear to consumers that there is a value on the actual burning of a CD and that value is more than the cost of the CD materials.