I don't do events or portraits. I only sell photos online. I have only sold to strangers. People I know expect me to give them copies of my photos for free. I did rather well with sales in 2007 that it is helping to offset the expense of this hobby.
The only photos I've attempted marketing (woodies) are the ones that have sold the least. The problem I've discovered is most people interested in woodies are not online. I am however having great success with my woodie calendar, probably because it is available via mail order. I have sold several of my non-woodie photos (architecture and nature scenics) and some digital downloads.
I sold a big landscape print to a guy in the UK in 06 after he saw a post of mind on dpreview. I'm on the west coast of the USA, so that was pretty cool.
And last year (07) I made a big sale of landscape prints (six or seven) to a guy in Denver who buys photos for offices. Turns out there was a local attorney who wanted a bunch of local landscape shots and found me through a google search.
That said-- the majority (99-percent) of my print/download sales are from event or portrait shoots. But... that's understandable because that's what I mainly shoot and what I mainly market.
I don't market mine at all. I have told people about the site, but not with the intent of selling stuff. But I am working on an identity and biz cards.
That said I had some interest in some images I shot back in Oct/November 2007, so I looked into the whole pricing part of my Pro account. What I found out is if I do not put in site (default), gallery or image pricing, any sales are at the SmugMug default pricing, the sales are not credited to me and I am not notified of any sales. I joined Smugmug almost 1.5 years ago, so I actually have no idea what I have or have not sold before Nov 2007.
Upside of pricing? I found out I sold 6 images on 12/30/2007. Plus the buyer contacted me about buying one that was not tagged as for sale. And I haven't even finished setting up pricing!!
"Don't ask me what I think of you, I might not give the answer that you want me to. Oh well."
-Fleetwood Mac
Hmmm
Thanks for asking. This has become a very valuable thread!
I've had the SmugMug account for one year now. When I signed up, a primary part of the game plan was to use SmugMug as a customer service front-end for my retail work. Great idea -- I thought. In that time I've had several thousand hits from subjects and sold only a few 4X6 prints. Most call or e-mail to comment and/or ask for prints or, more popular, files.
As a result, I've done quite a bit of primary research and found the following trends:
1/ In very general terms, people no longer want or need prints. 'Fine art' being the only real exception. They seem to prefer on-line viewing or e-mailing pix. They say one thing (prints are cool!) and do another (but do I really need them?).
2/ People still mistrust using credit cards on line unless they are using a very familiar service with a trusted brand. The connotations attached to the term "SmugMug" seem to make them wonder about security, and competing brands (SnapFish etc.) are more familiar to them because these brands are more aggressively marketed.
3/ In my case (I'm based in Canada) people do not like doing the U.S. dollar/cross border shipping thing. Too time consuming and too many added costs.
So 'fine art' prints may be a viable market. Thing is a personal touch is usually very important in "artsy" marketing. Who's going to buy an antique on line, for instance?
I'm still hopeful, though. I slated this first year for research and development and I'm just about there. Very little emphasis has been placed on sales thus far. But I have a new service planned that I'll be starting that up for trials this spring. It depends upon Web service, so test results should be interesting.
Sam,
Here's a second go at your question about making actual sales online. At about 3 in the afternoon on Christmas Eve I received a call asking if I could prepare some images for a proposal due on the 26th. They asked if was I interested seeing that it was Christmas Eve, etc. I said sure I'll pull something together. I took a few minutes to set up a private online gallery for this project, loaded a few images I thought they should consider into it and then later (so as not to give away the ease with which this is done) sent an email with the link to the gallery. At the client end all were duly impressed that I'd set up "a custom website" just for them and I sold 15 16x20's. In this case the site did not generate the sale but it was a valuable tool in facilitating it. I know that I don't need a Pro account to be able to do this but that level offers customization features that I like. I'm sure others here have had similar experiences.
1/ In very general terms, people no longer want or need prints. 'Fine art' being the only real exception. They seem to prefer on-line viewing or e-mailing pix. They say one thing (prints are cool!) and do another (but do I really need them?).
That is not my experience. They want prints but they don't want to pay for them. I've had a customer who took of the low res watermarked pics and printed them out at home. I saw it accidently. The prints looked like crap of course and I was furious. I made them pay a fine. As this was a very good friend of mine, that i had given the sitting fee free, just because they were such good friends, I was very very depressed about it. I take it that if they do it, a lot of other people do so too.
When I asked my friend if she did not see that the prints looked so crappy, she said they were good enough for her. It left me speechless.
I did shoot a wedding in august, and so far, I had not one single print ordered. Either I did a lousy job shooting, or they too have taken them in one way or the other. It left me with a very bad taste in my mouth.
In fact, right now I am doubting whether to keep on the pro path or not.
There is still a small voice in my head that says: "If you would be good enough, you would sell"...
1/ In very general terms, people no longer want or need prints. 'Fine art' being the only real exception. They seem to prefer on-line viewing or e-mailing pix. They say one thing (prints are cool!) and do another (but do I really need them?).
The stuff I sold was to be hung in an office lobby, so your observations still hold. The order didn't go through Smugmug either, it will be done locally - print, matte, frame. On local work (and that's all I've done) it's easier that way.
So if people don't want prints anymore what are you folks doing to generate a profit?
The results were a little better than I expected, but still in what / when do I do it area.
I believe at some point I will need to have an on line presence, and maybe I am needlessly procrastinating.
I view this as a big deal, not in terms of money, but in terms of time, and set up. I need to get test prints, (I know ever one likes the EZprints, but I will need to personally qualify my image prep work flow to their output.) I already know I will need to create a new folder on my computer with images that have been specifically processed, sizes, file format, etc. This means redoing all the images I will be posting.
Nike has little children in China making shoes for 3 cents an hour, and selling them for $150.00 here. I have absolutly no interest in what Nike has to say.
"1/ In very general terms, people no longer want or need prints. 'Fine art' being the only real exception. They seem to prefer on-line viewing or e-mailing pix. They say one thing (prints are cool!) and do another (but do I really need them?)."
Confusion here, I did not say above quote, I was Quoting Xris to say that I did not totally agree... The quote was one of his good remarks about selling prints:D
"1/ In very general terms, people no longer want or need prints. 'Fine art' being the only real exception. They seem to prefer on-line viewing or e-mailing pix. They say one thing (prints are cool!) and do another (but do I really need them?)."
Confusion here, I did not say above quote, I was Quoting Xris to say that I did not totally agree... The quote was one of his good remarks about selling prints:D
I think the problem here is that when you do a reply with a quote your are removing the ending [/quote] - which means that the entire entry looks like it was written by you. (with the ending tag, the quote is presented in a box, without it, it's not.)
It's ok to remove the stuff you aren't replying to - in fact, it makes the entire post clearer - but leave the ending [/quote] before you start your reply text.
I think the problem here is that when you do a reply with a quote your are removing the ending [/quote] - which means that the entire entry looks like it was written by you. (with the ending tag, the quote is presented in a box, without it, it's not.)
It's ok to remove the stuff you aren't replying to - in fact, it makes the entire post clearer - but leave the ending [/quote] before you start your reply text.
--- Denise
Uh, not to nitpick but it also needs the opening tag
. The former puts the Quote: above the box (and the box). The latter does the same and includes the "Originally Posted by poster name" part of the quote header. The ending tag alone won't do.
"Don't ask me what I think of you, I might not give the answer that you want me to. Oh well."
-Fleetwood Mac
Uh, not to nitpick but it also needs the opening tag or the default when you hit reply of [quote=denisegoldberg]. The former puts the Quote: above the box (and the box). The latter does the same and includes the "Originally Posted by poster name" part of the quote header. The ending tag alone won't do.
You're right - I missed that she had altered the beginning tag, just noticed that the end tag was missing. Both the beginning and the end tags need to be there.
I believe at some point I will need to have an on line presence, and maybe I am needlessly procrastinating.
Sam
Sam,
You may call it procrastinating, but I think its wise to research the subject first before jumping in with an online presence. I wish I had. Here's the single thing I regret most: not having understood how search engines like Google would search my site, DGrin entries, and photos. If I'd been more careful in setting up how I did things from the very beginning I'd be a happier camper. Go to the DGrin search box and run searches on topics like "Google search" and "bots" and you'll see what I mean. Determining what you do and do not want found by Google requires you to set it up that way from the get-go - once found it's difficult to have the search entry removed. I don't want to hijack this thread since these security issues have been covered elsewhere by others - but if you haven't done so already, do yourself a favor and research these topics beefore you launch your site.
ERF
Sam,
I don't want to hijack this thread since these security issues have been covered elsewhere by others - but if you haven't done so already, do yourself a favor and research these topics beefore you launch your site.
ERF
Sam
I’ve had a Smugmug account for 2 ½ years now, and while I have some of my galleries set up to sell prints, I’ve yet to sell a single one!
I shoot lots of photos—for work, events, personal stuff, but my main thrust for income is fine art/wall art images.
Two things I’ve found out: the vast majority of people who want fine art want it matted and framed, and marketing is the most important thing to generate sales.
As I learned from Alain Briot: “A poor print marketed well will always outsell a good print marketed poorly”
I don’t rely on Smugmug for selling, and use it little for marketing.
As an aside: When I had top level photo galleries on Smugmug, I would get thousands of photo views a month, and if you entered the exact name of the gallery on Google some would come up as the first hit in a search and most would be on the first or second search page--but no longer. Since I put them in categories, they no longer show up in Google and the views have gone way down.
Good luck in your efforts.
.... So if people don't want prints anymore what are you folks doing to generate a profit?
Not to be too harsh, but since 'profit', is the question here, that means we're talking 'business'. Not art. So let me say that photography is not primarily about 'prints.' Never has been. It's about 'images.' Prints are about prints and that's only one, small, market for images.
Sure, lot's of folks used to make money off photographic prints but, as you can see from this thread, that was because it WAS the cheapest and easiest way to reproduce and display an image.
If you look around today, you'll probably notice that ALMOST ALL the images you see every day ARE NOT photographic prints. Most are either litho (as in magazines,catalogs, 'fine art' prints, and newspapers), or electronic (as on the Web or TV,) Yet a photographer was almost always involved.
I've been shooting commercial/Industrial assignment photography since 1976 and prints and transparencies have always been an expensive nuisance. They were necessary in the process but just ended up being scanned anyway.
Today I almost NEVER have a client ask for prints because no matter what the end use is, the process is all electronic and prints just get in the way. If they want a quick one for doing a mock-up or something, they'll print it themselves.
In fine art, folks want prints. But I agree that with the matting and framing comment.
In wedding and portrait work I'm increasingly finding that prints are simply a necessary evil these days. Folks might want one or two 5 X 7s for the mantel. Sure, there is still business in serving the traditionalists, but it's not a growth market. The newest generation is more into FaceBook and digital display frames.
Even the passport folks are going digital!
At the end of the day, most professional photographers are paid for their time, their expensive gear, and their know-how. Get it done and get out. No reshoots. And it better be good!
Comments
The only photos I've attempted marketing (woodies) are the ones that have sold the least. The problem I've discovered is most people interested in woodies are not online. I am however having great success with my woodie calendar, probably because it is available via mail order. I have sold several of my non-woodie photos (architecture and nature scenics) and some digital downloads.
www.intruecolors.com
Nikon D700 x2/D300
Nikon 70-200 2.8/50 1.8/85 1.8/14.24 2.8
And last year (07) I made a big sale of landscape prints (six or seven) to a guy in Denver who buys photos for offices. Turns out there was a local attorney who wanted a bunch of local landscape shots and found me through a google search.
That said-- the majority (99-percent) of my print/download sales are from event or portrait shoots. But... that's understandable because that's what I mainly shoot and what I mainly market.
Portland, Oregon Photographer Pete Springer
website blog instagram facebook g+
I took a look over there, and wouldn't use the term "sell", since the average "selling" price seems to be less then my printing cost.
Sam
That said I had some interest in some images I shot back in Oct/November 2007, so I looked into the whole pricing part of my Pro account. What I found out is if I do not put in site (default), gallery or image pricing, any sales are at the SmugMug default pricing, the sales are not credited to me and I am not notified of any sales. I joined Smugmug almost 1.5 years ago, so I actually have no idea what I have or have not sold before Nov 2007.
Upside of pricing? I found out I sold 6 images on 12/30/2007. Plus the buyer contacted me about buying one that was not tagged as for sale. And I haven't even finished setting up pricing!!
-Fleetwood Mac
Hope you sell lots more!
http://photocatseyes.net
http://www.zazzle.com/photocatseyes
Thanks for asking. This has become a very valuable thread!
I've had the SmugMug account for one year now. When I signed up, a primary part of the game plan was to use SmugMug as a customer service front-end for my retail work. Great idea -- I thought. In that time I've had several thousand hits from subjects and sold only a few 4X6 prints. Most call or e-mail to comment and/or ask for prints or, more popular, files.
As a result, I've done quite a bit of primary research and found the following trends:
1/ In very general terms, people no longer want or need prints. 'Fine art' being the only real exception. They seem to prefer on-line viewing or e-mailing pix. They say one thing (prints are cool!) and do another (but do I really need them?).
2/ People still mistrust using credit cards on line unless they are using a very familiar service with a trusted brand. The connotations attached to the term "SmugMug" seem to make them wonder about security, and competing brands (SnapFish etc.) are more familiar to them because these brands are more aggressively marketed.
3/ In my case (I'm based in Canada) people do not like doing the U.S. dollar/cross border shipping thing. Too time consuming and too many added costs.
So 'fine art' prints may be a viable market. Thing is a personal touch is usually very important in "artsy" marketing. Who's going to buy an antique on line, for instance?
I'm still hopeful, though. I slated this first year for research and development and I'm just about there. Very little emphasis has been placed on sales thus far. But I have a new service planned that I'll be starting that up for trials this spring. It depends upon Web service, so test results should be interesting.
Here's a second go at your question about making actual sales online. At about 3 in the afternoon on Christmas Eve I received a call asking if I could prepare some images for a proposal due on the 26th. They asked if was I interested seeing that it was Christmas Eve, etc. I said sure I'll pull something together. I took a few minutes to set up a private online gallery for this project, loaded a few images I thought they should consider into it and then later (so as not to give away the ease with which this is done) sent an email with the link to the gallery. At the client end all were duly impressed that I'd set up "a custom website" just for them and I sold 15 16x20's. In this case the site did not generate the sale but it was a valuable tool in facilitating it. I know that I don't need a Pro account to be able to do this but that level offers customization features that I like. I'm sure others here have had similar experiences.
ERF
Olympus E510 and Gigapan mount
That is not my experience. They want prints but they don't want to pay for them. I've had a customer who took of the low res watermarked pics and printed them out at home. I saw it accidently. The prints looked like crap of course and I was furious. I made them pay a fine. As this was a very good friend of mine, that i had given the sitting fee free, just because they were such good friends, I was very very depressed about it. I take it that if they do it, a lot of other people do so too.
When I asked my friend if she did not see that the prints looked so crappy, she said they were good enough for her. It left me speechless.
I did shoot a wedding in august, and so far, I had not one single print ordered. Either I did a lousy job shooting, or they too have taken them in one way or the other. It left me with a very bad taste in my mouth.
In fact, right now I am doubting whether to keep on the pro path or not.
There is still a small voice in my head that says: "If you would be good enough, you would sell"...
http://photocatseyes.net
http://www.zazzle.com/photocatseyes
The stuff I sold was to be hung in an office lobby, so your observations still hold. The order didn't go through Smugmug either, it will be done locally - print, matte, frame. On local work (and that's all I've done) it's easier that way.
So if people don't want prints anymore what are you folks doing to generate a profit?
Olympus E510 and Gigapan mount
The results were a little better than I expected, but still in what / when do I do it area.
I believe at some point I will need to have an on line presence, and maybe I am needlessly procrastinating.
I view this as a big deal, not in terms of money, but in terms of time, and set up. I need to get test prints, (I know ever one likes the EZprints, but I will need to personally qualify my image prep work flow to their output.) I already know I will need to create a new folder on my computer with images that have been specifically processed, sizes, file format, etc. This means redoing all the images I will be posting.
Continuing to procrastinate, at least for now.
Sam
Nike has little children in China making shoes for 3 cents an hour, and selling them for $150.00 here. I have absolutly no interest in what Nike has to say.
But thanks for your thought.
Sam
"1/ In very general terms, people no longer want or need prints. 'Fine art' being the only real exception. They seem to prefer on-line viewing or e-mailing pix. They say one thing (prints are cool!) and do another (but do I really need them?)."
Confusion here, I did not say above quote, I was Quoting Xris to say that I did not totally agree... The quote was one of his good remarks about selling prints:D
http://photocatseyes.net
http://www.zazzle.com/photocatseyes
It's ok to remove the stuff you aren't replying to - in fact, it makes the entire post clearer - but leave the ending [/quote] before you start your reply text.
--- Denise
Musings & ramblings at https://denisegoldberg.blogspot.com
Uh, not to nitpick but it also needs the opening tag
-Fleetwood Mac
--- Denise
Musings & ramblings at https://denisegoldberg.blogspot.com
Sam,
You may call it procrastinating, but I think its wise to research the subject first before jumping in with an online presence. I wish I had. Here's the single thing I regret most: not having understood how search engines like Google would search my site, DGrin entries, and photos. If I'd been more careful in setting up how I did things from the very beginning I'd be a happier camper. Go to the DGrin search box and run searches on topics like "Google search" and "bots" and you'll see what I mean. Determining what you do and do not want found by Google requires you to set it up that way from the get-go - once found it's difficult to have the search entry removed. I don't want to hijack this thread since these security issues have been covered elsewhere by others - but if you haven't done so already, do yourself a favor and research these topics beefore you launch your site.
ERF
Olympus E510 and Gigapan mount
Thanks, I'll do that.
Sam
I’ve had a Smugmug account for 2 ½ years now, and while I have some of my galleries set up to sell prints, I’ve yet to sell a single one!
I shoot lots of photos—for work, events, personal stuff, but my main thrust for income is fine art/wall art images.
Two things I’ve found out: the vast majority of people who want fine art want it matted and framed, and marketing is the most important thing to generate sales.
As I learned from Alain Briot: “A poor print marketed well will always outsell a good print marketed poorly”
I don’t rely on Smugmug for selling, and use it little for marketing.
As an aside: When I had top level photo galleries on Smugmug, I would get thousands of photo views a month, and if you entered the exact name of the gallery on Google some would come up as the first hit in a search and most would be on the first or second search page--but no longer. Since I put them in categories, they no longer show up in Google and the views have gone way down.
Good luck in your efforts.
Alkhemist
www.alkhemist.smugmug.com
"Photography is a medium of formidable contradictions. It is ridiculously easy and almost impossibly difficult." Edward Steichen
Not to be too harsh, but since 'profit', is the question here, that means we're talking 'business'. Not art. So let me say that photography is not primarily about 'prints.' Never has been. It's about 'images.' Prints are about prints and that's only one, small, market for images.
Sure, lot's of folks used to make money off photographic prints but, as you can see from this thread, that was because it WAS the cheapest and easiest way to reproduce and display an image.
If you look around today, you'll probably notice that ALMOST ALL the images you see every day ARE NOT photographic prints. Most are either litho (as in magazines,catalogs, 'fine art' prints, and newspapers), or electronic (as on the Web or TV,) Yet a photographer was almost always involved.
I've been shooting commercial/Industrial assignment photography since 1976 and prints and transparencies have always been an expensive nuisance. They were necessary in the process but just ended up being scanned anyway.
Today I almost NEVER have a client ask for prints because no matter what the end use is, the process is all electronic and prints just get in the way. If they want a quick one for doing a mock-up or something, they'll print it themselves.
In fine art, folks want prints. But I agree that with the matting and framing comment.
In wedding and portrait work I'm increasingly finding that prints are simply a necessary evil these days. Folks might want one or two 5 X 7s for the mantel. Sure, there is still business in serving the traditionalists, but it's not a growth market. The newest generation is more into FaceBook and digital display frames.
Even the passport folks are going digital!
At the end of the day, most professional photographers are paid for their time, their expensive gear, and their know-how. Get it done and get out. No reshoots. And it better be good!
Prints are neither here nor there.