"There is nothing that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and he who considers price only is that man’s lawful prey". John Ruskin 1819 - 1900
Glenn -- thanks for posting the link. I read that post (on a Lexus automobile forum no less). Then I followed the link to DPreview forum that basically trashed the post, the poster and the test it described. Then I followed a couple of other links to other fallout from the test. Only then did I come to realize what an incredible waste of time all that debate is. MOST people are committed to one or the other brands not only because they like that brand better, but later on because they have geared up with lenses, etc. that are, of course, not interchangeable. Those who feel compelled to keep this debate alive seem motivated more by a psychological need for affirmation of their choice than a desire to educate or be educated. The only people to whom the question "which is better" is relevant are those at the threshold of their first investment in gear; however, if they Googled "Nikon vs Canon" and read every single word of what the search popped up, they'd be no closer to an informed decision at the end than they were at the beginning.
I chose Canon. The D3 has some amazing strengths - it came out after I had made my decision. So maybe if I won the lottery I would gear up with both (I know that some, a few anyway, actually do). But I don't think that would make me one iota better as a photographer. So no actually, I wouldn't do that.
My personal New Year's resolution: do not read one more word about this; spend saved time creating images instead -- and I don't mean images of a dictionary page taped to a wall!
Glenn -- thanks for posting the link. I read that post (on a Lexus automobile forum no less). Then I followed the link to DPreview forum that basically trashed the post, the poster and the test it described. Then I followed a couple of other links to other fallout from the test. Only then did I come to realize what an incredible waste of time all that debate is. MOST people are committed to one or the other brands not only because they like that brand better, but later on because they have geared up with lenses, etc. that are, of course, not interchangeable. Those who feel compelled to keep this debate alive seem motivated more by a psychological need for affirmation of their choice than a desire to educate or be educated. The only people to whom the question "which is better" is relevant are those at the threshold of their first investment in gear; however, if they Googled "Nikon vs Canon" and read every single word of what the search popped up, they'd be no closer to an informed decision at the end than they were at the beginning.
I chose Canon. The D3 has some amazing strengths - it came out after I had made my decision. So maybe if I won the lottery I would gear up with both (I know that some, a few anyway, actually do). But I don't think that would make me one iota better as a photographer. So no actually, I wouldn't do that.
My personal New Year's resolution: do not read one more word about this; spend saved time creating images instead -- and I don't mean images of a dictionary page taped to a wall!
By "interesting", I meant it would cause some debate - it surely did.
I won't refute your remarks, in fact I support them totally because I believe you are right on the mark.
Perhaps with the advent of modern technology, and more so with the recent advances in electronics technology, people are less and less able to really comprehend what is going on, and as a consequence must make choices on matters that they really don't understand.
Could this result in a need to be constantly re-assured that they made the correct choice? Would this be so with "techno-geeks" - in love with technology, but without the basic scientific knowledge to understand it. I'm continually amazed at the people that have been in photography for some time that don't really understand apertures.
What I found interesting (after having followed a few threads) is that some photographers (often actual working pros) have both bodies, and use them interchangeably, or for their different strengths (which both obviously have).
Perhaps even more enlightening are two other forums I follow (NatureScapes and photo.net), where some of the most creative and beautiful images are taken with the smaller P&S cameras (a type that many fanboys in both camps ridicule), and consumer DSLRs made by Pentax, Nikon, Canon, etc. (300D and D50 come to mind).
This of course, supports the common sense view that everyone eventually forgets - the photographer is in control (or not), and if there is a weak link, it's him/her not the camera. So what are many of the previous 553 post all about?
I think I will follow your lead on the New Year's resolution.
Here's wishing you all the best for 2008.
"There is nothing that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and he who considers price only is that man’s lawful prey". John Ruskin 1819 - 1900
By "interesting", I meant it would cause some debate - it surely did.
I won't refute your remarks, in fact I support them totally because I believe you are right on the mark.
Perhaps with the advent of modern technology, and more so with the recent advances in electronics technology, people are less and less able to really comprehend what is going on, and as a consequence must make choices on matters that they really don't understand.
Could this result in a need to be constantly re-assured that they made the correct choice? Would this be so with "techno-geeks" - in love with technology, but without the basic scientific knowledge to understand it. I'm continually amazed at the people that have been in photography for some time that don't really understand apertures.
What I found interesting (after having followed a few threads) is that some photographers (often actual working pros) have both bodies, and use them interchangeably, or for their different strengths (which both obviously have).
Perhaps even more enlightening are two other forums I follow (NatureScapes and photo.net), where some of the most creative and beautiful images are taken with the smaller P&S cameras (a type that many fanboys in both camps ridicule), and consumer DSLRs made by Pentax, Nikon, Canon, etc. (300D and D50 come to mind).
This of course, supports the common sense view that everyone eventually forgets - the photographer is in control (or not), and if there is a weak link, it's him/her not the camera. So what are many of the previous 553 post all about?
I think I will follow your lead on the New Year's resolution.
Here's wishing you all the best for 2008.
Your take on the technology aspect of this is interesting and no doubt has a lot of validity. But go surf the net for forums on any type of expensive acquirable thing -- car, stereo, you name it -- and you will find thread after thread exhibiting the same type of behavior. Honestly, I think some people are so lacking in self esteem that they are in constant search of definitive proof that whatever they have, it's "the best". And until that statement comes along, they are quite content to repeat the same mantras over and over, at increasingly higher volume.
And now look what you've gone and made me do -- broke my resolution already! Don't feel bad -- I broke the other one about quitting smoking cigars hours ago.
Your take on the technology aspect of this is interesting and no doubt has a lot of validity. But go surf the net for forums on any type of expensive acquirable thing -- car, stereo, you name it -- and you will find thread after thread exhibiting the same type of behavior. Honestly, I think some people are so lacking in self esteem that they are in constant search of definitive proof that whatever they have, it's "the best". And until that statement comes along, they are quite content to repeat the same mantras over and over, at increasingly higher volume.
And now look what you've gone and made me do -- broke my resolution already! Don't feel bad -- I broke the other one about quitting smoking cigars hours ago.
Happy and healthy to you and yours.
I think the technology aspect has always been around with humans.
Your comment about self esteem hits the nail on the head; this is particularly a problem for the male gender of our species.
"There is nothing that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and he who considers price only is that man’s lawful prey". John Ruskin 1819 - 1900
Yes I have read it myself and, despite his test, Im still saving for the D3. I take my hat off to him for making a test using the same optics. It does cancel out the diffrences in lense manufacturing. I am most definately lusting after his Tak. What this still tells me is that both Canon and, Nikon are putting out great products and, are having to compete more, in which case it is we the consumers that benefit from it.
Well I believe the 2 year debates verdict is which ever owner is talking his/her cameras are the best.
1Dm3 vs. D3.. Wow!
I was amazed at the results. I still can't believe the Canon is that sharp and that the Nikon isn't. I actually expected much better from the Nikon...
Since the release of the new cameras from the various companies I've seen tests "proving" a variety of differing and often completely opposite conclusions about the various cameras.
I will wait until I've seen some testing from more reliable sources (ie. Phil Askey) and after I get my hands on a D3 before I make any conclusions.
Harry http://behret.smugmug.com/NANPA member How many photographers does it take to change a light bulb? 50. One to change the bulb, and forty-nine to say, "I could have done that better!"
I just moved some older posts into this thread, so it will be a little confusing to read for just a while.
FWIW, I think the test in the link mentioned is fine, the methodology a bit ill conceived, the results confusing and the conclusion hasty.
We can resolve that the two camera bodies involved are indeed extremely capable and competent, especially when the best technique is applied to both. We can also derive that poor technique can render the best tools to produce poorly as well.
You must realize that Nikon and Canon have slightly different designs and intended markets for these cameras, not to mention completely different compatibilities so the user must choose according to their needs and existing platform more than any other determinant.
The really good news is that almost no matter which maker you choose now days you can have a great plenty to rejoice and produce around and the resulting quality is just astonishing compared to even a few years ago.
Wow, what a fabulous test. Now I know exactly which camera is best if I want to photograph book pages with a third-party spotting scope at EI3200 and up, assuming I'm willing to trust the test methodology of some guy I never heard of.
I use an Epson R-D 1, so I don't have any vested interest here. But reading this does seem like an unusually stupid waste of a photographer's (as opposed to an overprivileged gearhead's) time. Could I have this 15 minutes of my life back, please?
:lol4
Harry http://behret.smugmug.com/NANPA member How many photographers does it take to change a light bulb? 50. One to change the bulb, and forty-nine to say, "I could have done that better!"
The conclusion I come to from his test is buying a high resolving power lens for a low pixel density camera may not be money well spent. However, I didn't need to read is test to come to that conclusion as I went through a period of time where I was thiking about buying a 300/2.8 IS for my 5D but then realized that is would be both cheaper and more effective to buy a 40D and a 70-200/2.8IS. The conclusion I have come to is that when the lens is more expensive than the camera you should really change your mindset and buy the best body for the lens rather than the other way around. When resolving power is paramount, pixel density wins over sensor size. As magical as the image quality is from the 5D, a 40D or 1DmIII would be a better choice for birding or outdoor sports. I am sure the same thing applies D3--if you need ultimate resolving power buy a D300 and spend the cash you saved on glass.
page 7 and 8 are the most interesting parts of the original test thread. someone got the tester to email him the raw files and he converted and posted 100% crops from both cameras.
it looks like the D3 has such a small advantage at 3200 iso that it really doesn't matter. the results are nearly identical. someone on the next page then resized the canon image to match the size of the nikon 100% crop which made them look even more identical
"
Very interesting. The D200's 1.5 crop would have blown out both the D3 and M3. I think the Lexus guy is a Liar, he has the D200 shots, but they go against his premise. He keeps saying I'll post them if I find them.
The internet is full of Canon Trolls!"
--
Paul
Just an old dos guy
"
Very interesting. The D200's 1.5 crop would have blown out both the D3 and M3. I think the Lexus guy is a Liar, he has the D200 shots, but they go against his premise. He keeps saying I'll post them if I find them.
The internet is full of Canon Trolls!"
--
Paul
Just an old dos guy
He summed up what i was going to say .
One of the reasons I came over to Dgrin was to get away from posts like that. Each camera has its own set of fanboys willing to spread their gospel.
Harry http://behret.smugmug.com/NANPA member How many photographers does it take to change a light bulb? 50. One to change the bulb, and forty-nine to say, "I could have done that better!"
I've been pleased with my MkIII (with fixed shutter mirror) and its performance in real world sports action. Static tests mean little to me aside from the pretty bar charts and graphs that one can make with them.
Honestly, I'm too invested in my glass to worry about the bodies. All I know is that a few years from now, when it comes time to upgrade again, I'll still have my trusty glass, regardless of what the body is. Ok ramble over.
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I've been pleased with my MkIII (with fixed shutter mirror) and its performance in real world sports action. Static tests mean little to me aside from the pretty bar charts and graphs that one can make with them.
Harry http://behret.smugmug.com/NANPA member How many photographers does it take to change a light bulb? 50. One to change the bulb, and forty-nine to say, "I could have done that better!"
I've broken my New Year's resolution again about not even re-opening this thread, but as a Canonista let me say that you are a model of objectivity that everyone should try to emulate. And your original post when you got the D3 was (a) hilarious and (b) enough to induce a bit of envy even from the other camp.
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I chose Canon. The D3 has some amazing strengths - it came out after I had made my decision. So maybe if I won the lottery I would gear up with both (I know that some, a few anyway, actually do). But I don't think that would make me one iota better as a photographer. So no actually, I wouldn't do that.
My personal New Year's resolution: do not read one more word about this; spend saved time creating images instead -- and I don't mean images of a dictionary page taped to a wall!
__________________
www.browngreensports.com
http://browngreensports.smugmug.com
By "interesting", I meant it would cause some debate - it surely did.
I won't refute your remarks, in fact I support them totally because I believe you are right on the mark.
Perhaps with the advent of modern technology, and more so with the recent advances in electronics technology, people are less and less able to really comprehend what is going on, and as a consequence must make choices on matters that they really don't understand.
Could this result in a need to be constantly re-assured that they made the correct choice? Would this be so with "techno-geeks" - in love with technology, but without the basic scientific knowledge to understand it. I'm continually amazed at the people that have been in photography for some time that don't really understand apertures.
What I found interesting (after having followed a few threads) is that some photographers (often actual working pros) have both bodies, and use them interchangeably, or for their different strengths (which both obviously have).
Perhaps even more enlightening are two other forums I follow (NatureScapes and photo.net), where some of the most creative and beautiful images are taken with the smaller P&S cameras (a type that many fanboys in both camps ridicule), and consumer DSLRs made by Pentax, Nikon, Canon, etc. (300D and D50 come to mind).
This of course, supports the common sense view that everyone eventually forgets - the photographer is in control (or not), and if there is a weak link, it's him/her not the camera. So what are many of the previous 553 post all about?
I think I will follow your lead on the New Year's resolution.
Here's wishing you all the best for 2008.
And now look what you've gone and made me do -- broke my resolution already! Don't feel bad -- I broke the other one about quitting smoking cigars hours ago.
Happy and healthy to you and yours.
__________________
www.browngreensports.com
http://browngreensports.smugmug.com
I think the technology aspect has always been around with humans.
Your comment about self esteem hits the nail on the head; this is particularly a problem for the male gender of our species.
Oh Glenn, RE*H*EALLY!!! This is continuing ANOTHER endless and useless debate - who is better/nicer, men or women?
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Well I believe the 2 year debates verdict is which ever owner is talking his/her cameras are the best.
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I was amazed at the results. I still can't believe the Canon is that sharp and that the Nikon isn't. I actually expected much better from the Nikon...
Perhaps this is a repost, but worth the see if you haven't.
http://www.clublexus.com/forums/showthread.php?t=326811
That test is well flamed here:
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1021&message=26239421
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"There's no reason to hurry on this climb...as long as you keep the tempo at the right speed the riders will fall back."
I will wait until I've seen some testing from more reliable sources (ie. Phil Askey) and after I get my hands on a D3 before I make any conclusions.
http://behret.smugmug.com/ NANPA member
How many photographers does it take to change a light bulb? 50. One to change the bulb, and forty-nine to say, "I could have done that better!"
FWIW, I think the test in the link mentioned is fine, the methodology a bit ill conceived, the results confusing and the conclusion hasty.
We can resolve that the two camera bodies involved are indeed extremely capable and competent, especially when the best technique is applied to both. We can also derive that poor technique can render the best tools to produce poorly as well.
You must realize that Nikon and Canon have slightly different designs and intended markets for these cameras, not to mention completely different compatibilities so the user must choose according to their needs and existing platform more than any other determinant.
The really good news is that almost no matter which maker you choose now days you can have a great plenty to rejoice and produce around and the resulting quality is just astonishing compared to even a few years ago.
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:lol4
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How many photographers does it take to change a light bulb? 50. One to change the bulb, and forty-nine to say, "I could have done that better!"
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http://clublexus.com/forums/showthread.php?t=326811&page=7
it looks like the D3 has such a small advantage at 3200 iso that it really doesn't matter. the results are nearly identical. someone on the next page then resized the canon image to match the size of the nikon 100% crop which made them look even more identical
quoting pwilly from http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1021&message=26247915
"
Very interesting. The D200's 1.5 crop would have blown out both the D3 and M3. I think the Lexus guy is a Liar, he has the D200 shots, but they go against his premise. He keeps saying I'll post them if I find them.
The internet is full of Canon Trolls!"
--
Paul
Just an old dos guy
He summed up what i was going to say
One of the reasons I came over to Dgrin was to get away from posts like that. Each camera has its own set of fanboys willing to spread their gospel.
http://behret.smugmug.com/ NANPA member
How many photographers does it take to change a light bulb? 50. One to change the bulb, and forty-nine to say, "I could have done that better!"
Honestly, I'm too invested in my glass to worry about the bodies. All I know is that a few years from now, when it comes time to upgrade again, I'll still have my trusty glass, regardless of what the body is. Ok ramble over.
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Amateur CSS Dork
http://behret.smugmug.com/ NANPA member
How many photographers does it take to change a light bulb? 50. One to change the bulb, and forty-nine to say, "I could have done that better!"
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