2nd flash: 580EX with Sigma/other as slave???

DoctorIt

I have been soaking up flash photography like a sponge. Unfortunately, it has so quickly become evident that a second flash will make it oh so much better. I'm not loaded with money, but I have a little bit to throw at a second unit, but definitely can't do another 580EX.

So my question, anyone use one of the new Sigma 500's (either ST or Super) with a 580EX? I know they have decent reviews on their own, but the key is in combination here. I invested in the best Canon flash for the first one, but the sigma would only be firing as a slave, so I shouldn't have to spend big bucks on another super smart flash, right?

Advice would be great here, especially if anyone has in fact used the 580EX with the Sigma, or any other less expensive unit for that matter.

DoctorIt

eeks, just found this:
http://www.photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=00AC43

dang... I have a 10D too... :uhoh

Shay Stephens

Probably not much help here
You are right that a second light will open up new realms of quality and versatility to your lighting. And just for the record, one does not need a smart flash for anything. I use multiple flash manually with Sunpak 555 units. They even have an auto mode if I want to use that (though I never do).

The trick you will find is that the dumb flash units may need an external trigger of some kind. This could be as simple as a Wein peanut slave or similar:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=breadCrumb&A=search&Q=&ci=8008

That is just for background info. I am sure someone will have details specific to what you are currently looking for.

DoctorIt

Shay Stephens wrote:

You are right that a second light will open up new realms of quality and versatility to your lighting. And just for the record, one does not need a smart flash for anything. I use multiple flash manually with Sunpak 555 units. They even have an auto mode if I want to use that (though I never do).

The trick you will find is that the dumb flash units may need an external trigger of some kind. This could be as simple as a Wein peanut slave or similar:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=breadCrumb&A=search&Q=&ci=8008

That is just for background info. I am sure someone will have details specific to what you are currently looking for.

thanks shay, you are the flash guru around here, so you doing it manually is one thing, me doing manually is completely another!

I'm just hoping to get something that will help me automatically, at least a little. I'll feel like I wasted money on the smart 580EX if I get something that won't talk to it at all.

make sense?

ian408

Doc,

You might consider a 420 as a second unit. $180 new.

Ian

DoctorIt

ian408 wrote:

Doc,

You might consider a 420 as a second unit. $180 new.

Ian

will it do ratios as the slave, not just full blast? that's all I need from it.

TristanP

Andy has two of them (420), IIRC. Maybe he could chime in.

ian408

DoctorIt wrote:

will it do ratios as the slave, not just full blast? that's all I need from it.

Does this answer
your question?

Ian

DoctorIt

ian408 wrote:

Does this answer
your question?

Ian

oh, that eos documentation is good! thanks!!

DoctorIt

so i borrowed another 580ex last night. man was it great. everything sets up so easily, just toggle one swith to master, the other to slave. I just left them both in ETTL mode, and adjusted the ratio on the shoe mounted master. Then I also easily dialed in some compensation on both which also worked seamlessly.

BUT!!! there was one thing I could not get to work. I couldn't turn off the master. I had the manual open, did everything right. even the display on my master looked right. Or at least I'm pretty darn sure. But it kept firing.


I searched those EOS documents to see if it was a 10D issue, and couldn't come up with anything.

Anyone know any better?

patch29

DoctorIt wrote:

so i borrowed another 580ex last night. man was it great. everything sets up so easily, just toggle one swith to master, the other to slave. I just left them both in ETTL mode, and adjusted the ratio on the shoe mounted master. Then I also easily dialed in some compensation on both which also worked seamlessly.

BUT!!! there was one thing I could not get to work. I couldn't turn off the master. I had the manual open, did everything right. even the display on my master looked right. Or at least I'm pretty darn sure. But it kept firing.


I searched those EOS documents to see if it was a 10D issue, and couldn't come up with anything.

Anyone know any better?

I don't know how the 580 works, but I can easily turn off the 550 master via the flash info panel on the back. I think the beams of light symbol flashes when the master is off. It may also be turned off, but it still sends an encoded white light signal to the other flash units. If you watch carefully with it on you will see it double flash very rapidly, which if the master is off you should just get one quick flash from it.

DoctorIt

patch29 wrote:

I don't know how the 580 works, but I can easily turn off the 550 master via the flash info panel on the back. I think the beams of light symbol flashes when the master is off.

yup, same on 580ex. Mine was definitely blinking.

It may also be turned off, but it still sends an encoded white light signal to the other flash units. If you watch carefully with it on you will see it double flash very rapidly, which if the master is off you should just get one quick flash from it.

now you're talkin the flash itself - as in, the master will fire pre and post exposure? or the little red communicator light? I thought it was done IR? Based on my exposures, I'm guessing its still firing.

patch29

DoctorIt wrote:

yup, same on 580ex. Mine was definitely blinking.

now you're talkin the flash itself - as in, the master will fire pre and post exposure? or the little red communicator light? I thought it was done IR? Based on my exposures, I'm guessing its still firing.

Mine is not working via infared, AFAIK. I think only the ST-E2 does that, at least that is how it was explained to me by a photographer that shoots for and demos Canon equipment at their trade shows. It will fire a pre flash, and then the exposure, if it is turned on, if not only a pre exposure or maybe a pre with enough signal to the other flash.

An easy test is to set the other flash off at an angle and shoot a shot, then remove it from the scene completely (all in a dark/er room). The master should still send out a pulse of light, but your exposure will not show any flash.

DoctorIt

patch29 wrote:

Mine is not working via infared, AFAIK. I think only the ST-E2 does that, at least that is how it was explained to me by a photographer that shoots for and demos Canon equipment at their trade shows. It will fire a pre flash, and then the exposure, if it is turned on, if not only a pre exposure or maybe a pre with enough signal to the other flash.

An easy test is to set the other flash off at an angle and shoot a shot, then remove it from the scene completely (all in a dark/er room). The master should still send out a pulse of light, but your exposure will not show any flash.

well i caught both test ideas (as you edited). this last one makes sense, the master doesn't necessarily know if the slave is there, right? so just remove it and fire away. good call.

i'll try some more things tonight. thanks for the help!

patch29

DoctorIt wrote:

well i caught both test ideas (as you edited). this last one makes sense, the master doesn't necessarily know if the slave is there, right? so just remove it and fire away. good call.

i'll try some more things tonight. thanks for the help!

Yes, take it away and it should not give you any significant exposure. I tried my other shot with the mirror and the master showed up, but it might not be giving out any power, the other way it was easy to tell it was not adding to the exposure.

I also covered up the red light part and it had no affect, but if I covered the white light on the master it would not trigger the other one. Just make sure the master is not giving out a lot of power or it might get too hot and do bad things or just don't do it, so you won't break anything.

blackwaterstudio

Not sure if this has been noted, but the Sigma 500DG Super can be triggered optically by another strobe, be that your onboard flash or another external flash. I thought this wouldnt work well but i just started playing with it in full yesterday and have been amazed at the results. I have my onboard flash down to near minimum and manually dial in the power I want on the Sigma, put the cam in M mode and just work from there.

DoctorIt

jdsphotography wrote:

Not sure if this has been noted, but the Sigma 500DG Super can be triggered optically by another strobe, be that your onboard flash or another external flash. I thought this wouldnt work well but i just started playing with it in full yesterday and have been amazed at the results. I have my onboard flash down to near minimum and manually dial in the power I want on the Sigma, put the cam in M mode and just work from there.

i came this close to buying a sigma, but I found the manual online and noticed it was just different enough that it would drive me crazy. I'm sure it works similarly to the 580ex, but its bad enough learning one system!

DoctorIt

I did the test, and for posterity, figured I'd put the results in here in case someone wants to know in the future.

Dual 580EX's with a 10D - the master does in fact fire a pre-flash to trigger the slave. This can very easily be mistaken as the master firing. Easy test confirmed it though: camera mounted master set to "off = not fire" in a dark room, and just turned the slave off completely. I'm not gonna waste bandwidth showing it to you, but trust me in that the resulting exposure was in fact black, even though I saw the flash (pre-)fire.

The moral of the story: Canon gear behaves exactly as it should, and our eyes can be easily decieved!

patch29

DoctorIt wrote:

The moral of the story: Canon gear behaves exactly as it should, and our eyes can be easily decieved!

Glad it works, time for me to pick up a 580EX. They look a lot nicer and easier to use than the 550EX.