Okay to Sell Photos To Parents?

Shutterbugmom

I have a question to which I have spent many hours trying to find and answer. I'm hoping one of you event photographers can help.

My question is complicated so bear with me. Or, rather the background leading up to my question is. I have taken some photos of members of a dance studio dancing in public venues. I had not officially gone into business at the time, but was freely letting the studio use small files on their website. (I have a dancer at their studio) Well, twice they used the files to make enlarged prints for display in a public venue, once to pixelization. They even cropped my copyright off, for which it turns out I'm thankful because at least my name wasn't tarnished in the community. After the first time, I told them AGAIN that the files were just for web use and to please ask if they wanted to use them for something larger and I would get them a larger file. After the second offense, I was quite upset and told them I may need compensation since they didn't ask my permission. (I had just barely gone into business by this time)

Now, the owner of the studio says I cannot sell the photos of the dancers to the parents of the dancers or the dancers themselves or anyone or display them on my website, except privately. Part of their reasoning is that their logo is on the dance outfit and I photographed their dancers, so they actually own the photos. They are also telling parents not to buy prints from me or anyone and are asking all parents to freely upload photos they take, to a Costco group album they set up, where they state that by uploading photos to it, all photos then become the property of the studio to use as they wish. To top it all off they say I should have been paying them to use their website and bandwidth.

My understanding was that to give up your copyright, pro or not, you must sign something legally stating so. Am I correct?

This is my biggest question...Can I get in trouble if I sell these photos to the parents? :dunno I have parents asking me for prices and photos and I don't know what to tell them and am afraid to sell them until I know the studio can't do anything to me legally. Like I said, I have searched for hours and hours and read everything I could find on model releases and fair use and all that and I can't find an answer to this question. It shouldn't be this hard. I'm glad I'm not going to be an event photographer. How do you folks do it?

Thanks in advance for your time and replies. I hope someone can help.

Foochar

Shutterbugmom wrote:

My question is complicated so bear with me.

<snip>

where they state that by uploading photos to it, all photos then become the property of the studio to use as they wish. To top it all off they say I should have been paying them to use their website and bandwidth.

My understanding was that to give up your copyright, pro or not, you must sign something legally stating so. Am I correct?

<snip>

This is my biggest question...Can I get in trouble if I sell these photos to the parents? <img src="https://us.v-cdn.net/6029383/emoji/ne_nau.gif&quot; border="0" alt="" >

<snip>

Thanks in advance for your time and replies. I hope someone can help.

I preface all my comments by saying I am not a lawyer, and if you want to have a leg to stand on if you end up in court you should consult with one. That being said, here is my take on this.

First off it depends on your definition of "trouble", being that if you can find a lawyer to take the case anyone can sue just about anyone, although they may not be successful just the fact that you are being sued is a major pain.

If you are selling prints then you are selling art, and in my understanding the logo doesn't really matter in this case. Did Andy Warhol need to get permission to sell his first Campbell's soup can painting? If however you put the picture on something tangible (say a coffee mug) you have left the realm of art and are now selling a product, which is commercial, and there the logo could be an issue. You also probably shouldn't use pictures containing the logo in anything "promotional" for your business, as that would be considered commercial use as well. If you are using the photograph in a commercial manner you also need a model release for anyone that is in the picture.

With respect to selling the prints it depends if you agreed, even implicitly to any conditions when you were taking the pictures or at any point after that. Were you required to purchase a ticket for entry? Was there anything on that ticket about pictures being for personal use only? Any signs regarding photography? Were you given courtesy admission in exchange for taking the pictures, and what terms were implicit in that agreement? Was there anything in the program regarding photography not being permitted, or permitted for personal use only? Were you on their property? If so then you are on thin ice. If there is nothing in writing then if they decide to haul you into court it will be their word against yours. However if the pictures took place in a fully public venue, say a park, then you are probably ok.

Lastly, with regard to the Costco upload, if they clearly state that any uploaded pictures become their property, then by uploading the photographer is agreeing to this. If you don't like the terms, then don't upload to the Costco gallery. This is similar to many newspapers who have a policy that the only compensation for unsolicited photographs is photo credit, and sometimes not even that, they simply credit it as "Submitted Photo". If you don't like the policy, don't submit unsolicited photographs to the paper.

bkatz

I'll prefrace this by saying I agree with Travis that I am not a lawyer and you should consult with one.

If you were shooting in public venues - say a mall or somewhere else - unless the venue has a policy against pictures you can certainly take pictures. The pictures are your copyright and you can only give that up by contract, whether written or verbal.

As far as the studio using your previous pictures it sounds like there was a verbal contract in place and good luck with the he said she said. They will say you gave them the photos free and clear and they can do what they want with them. BTW - even if you agree to this you still own the copyright - unless you agreed to give that to them.

As far as selling to the parents there is no reason you cannot do this. I shoot sports and I find the easiest way to do this well when shooting the same team/town is to offer a set amount of the net to the town (in my case I offer 5% of any sales from that team) or club. I do this for a set period of time (say 3 weeks from posting time) any sales after that I keep the 5%. They are usually happy with this arrangement.

I allow, if asked nicely, the town to use the pictures on their web site as long as they provide appropriate credit (low res shots of course).

If they provide the performance place and specifically state pictures are not allowed or are only allowed for personal use then you should respect that. That is different from a public venue say a mall or a park where they cannot expect privacy. As far as their logo goes 0 don't use pictures that show their logo in any of your advertising and you should be fine.

As a final caution - I protect all children's galleries with a password which goes only to the children's parents. If they choose to give it out to grandparents etc that is their call but I give them protection from public display on the internet and I have only gottem compliments for this.

Good luck and let us know what happens.:D

Sam

My first question would be how did this degenerate to where it is now?

Apparently you have a child enrolled at the studio. They had access to images at no cost for web use, and you offered to get them high res files for printing. Sounds like a good deal for them.

The issue of cropping out your name etc, and printing a lousy low res image even after you spoke to them doesn't make sense. Why anyone would want to put out a poor low quality image to represent them is not clear to me.

Getting upset, (although I understand it), and asking for compensation probably set the negative tone.

Without any additional information I would say the studio can't stop you from selling the images you already have, but can prohibit all photographers, from taking images and / or specify the terms under which photos can be taken in the future. The policy needs to apply to all, not just you.

I tried to look at your dance images to get an idea of the type of images and the quality involved, but they are locked. Basically if they are mediocre, the studio, and parents aren't loosing any thing with your departure, but if on the other hand you have very high quality pro level, creative, etc images everyone is loosing out big time.

If there isn't any way to reconcile this to your mutual benefit, maybe it's time to find a new dance studio.

Again I wouldn't worry about selling what you have or displaying them. If having a logo in an image were to convey ownership, how many family photos would Disney own? Thay are angry, and no concept of the law at all.

Sam

bkatz

I knew Sam would pipe up. I almost put in my reply - wait for Sam's reply.
Sam - you always impress me with your answers and insight - keep it up.

Sam

bkatz wrote:

I knew Sam would pipe up. I almost put in my reply - wait for Sam's reply.
Sam - you always impress me with your answers and insight - keep it up.

Thanks! I use the age old concept that while I can't fool all of the people all of the time, I can fool some of the people some of the time.

Sam

Manfr3d

Sounds to like the dance studio is trying a dirty rights grab.
I woudln't worrie about having to pay them because they
didn't tell you it was a pay service before. Usualy the
biggest problem for photographers is that they cannot
sell the images without the agreement of the owner
of the place where the image was took (not a problem
on public property) and a model release agreement from
the photographed persons. Obviously they've known
that you took photos long before they tried to forbid
you to use these images, I doubt that they can just
change the rules without a legaly good reason.
If I was the dance studio, I'd be much more worried
about someone (the photographer or the "models")
sueing me for using unlicensed images for commercial
public display in my advertising (poster, webgallery, ...).

Without you transfering the rights to them they cannot
do anything with those images unless you give them
written permission to do so.

In any case I doubt that you'll get anything out of
it, just run from them and try to keep this issue
low. The trouble isn't worth it if you plan to be
a photographer for other clients in the same area.
Word of mouth travels fast and a bad reputation
takes much longer to restore than to recover from
one jerk customer.

You should be able to sue him for not licensing
your images btw. if you really want to do that.

just my 2 cents

Shutterbugmom

Thanks so much for all of your advice, opinions, etc...it does help me a lot. Confirms some things I was thinking and clears up some others.

I do have e-mail that shows that they kept asking me for more pictures to put up on their website, as well as my telling them they were for web use only.

They actually brought up the idea of compensation first, too. They came up to me apologizing cause they thought they used my photo on a banner, but thought I'd be pleased to have it displayed. This was after they had used it for displaying at a big public event. If this had been the one and only time that had happened, I wouldn't have been so upset, but that was after they already knew better. They always laugh it off and assume if they are nice enough, I'll understand and be fine with whatever they've done. The are mad because I didn't respond that way, I actually stood up for myself and my rights. Funny thing is they have recently asked me if I want to sign the banner and let them put it up in the studio. I will say thank you but no to that idea.

As far as the Costco thing, I myself would never think of uploading to their group share site, but I know there are a couple of other parents that love to take pictures and are trying to get better and I fear they are the next to be used for free publicity photos for the studio because they are uploading to the site.

I will think, talk to my hubby and pray on all of this and make a decision soon. I doubt I will sue, it's not really worth it and we don't want to leave the school just yet. I will probably just photograph for myself and our family from now on. Shooting dancers is really good practice for shooting moving animals in the field. haha And, WE will have great photos for OUR family albums!

Sorry I didn't do quotes from what you all said, but I have no idea how to include them yet, since this is only my fourth post.

Blessings to you!

Sam

I actually stood up for myself and my rights. Funny thing is they have recently asked me if I want to sign the banner and let them put it up in the studio. I will say thank you but no to that idea.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

This could be a good opportunity to settle this in a way that benefits both of you. Standing up for your rights doesn't need to be adversarial. Your just stating your position.

If I understand your previous posts, one concern you had was the poor quality of the banner.

If this is the case, try and explain that while your flattered they want you to sign, the banner is such poor quality you can't in good conscience sign it. If you don't want money, but want control so the large prints / banners are of good quality, explain that to them.

If you feel you need compensation for images used for large prints, and / or banners. Tell them. Explain that there is a lot more work involved in preparing an image for a large print than a small image used on the web.

Maybe negotiate along the lines of you allow (with your quality oriented supervision) a certain number of prints be used for their business promotion, and they give you full access, and an OK to hand your cards out with your web site.

Just an idea.

Sam

Shutterbugmom

These are great suggestions, Sam. Thank you again for your time and comments.

If my goal was to be an event photographer, I would be much more likely to try to work something out with them. Since I don't really need the work, time drains or stress of it all, I think I will just have nothing more to do with them where my business is concerned. I just don't want the headache. They've proved themselves untrustworthy on more than one occasion and I don't like dealing with those kind of people.

The good news...more time for my family and my outdoor photography!

Shutterbugmom

Update
Well, the fiasco is over. We decided to leave the school at the end of January, since we couldn't work things out. In the meantime, they kicked us out of the school. Guess it worked out both ways. I'm just thankful it's over. Thanks for all your advice and for listening.