I was going to weigh in on this but first I thought I would check out the poll numbers.
At any rate being the uneducated sod I am, I found a note listing a total of 70 voters. When the individual votes are counted it adds up to 91.
yes votes are 34, 48.57%
No votes are 35,5 %
Break votes are 8, 11.43%
Make votes are 20, 20%
Now no matter how I does my arithmetic, I can't gets anything to add up. The total votes are not the expected 100%, but 130%.
Maybe Hillary's old campaign manager found a new position managing forum polls.
If I buy an Apple I expect to get 100% of the apple. Now if you can explain how I can get 130% of an apple, I am all ears, and no I am not Vulcan, but thanks for asking.
I was going to weigh in on this but first I thought I would check out the poll numbers.
At any rate being the uneducated sod I am, I found a note listing a total of 70 voters. When the individual votes are counted it adds up to 91.
yes votes are 34, 48.57%
No votes are 35,5 %
Break votes are 8, 11.43%
Make votes are 20, 20%
Now no matter how I does my arithmetic, I can't gets anything to add up. The total votes are not the expected 100%, but 130%.
Maybe Hillary's old campaign manager found a new position managing forum polls.
If I buy an Apple I expect to get 100% of the apple. Now if you can explain how I can get 130% of an apple, I am all ears, and no I am not Vulcan, but thanks for asking.
Sam
I think it's because multiple selection is possible.. i.e. half voted for either of the 1st 2 choices, and could also vote for one of the other 2.
I was going to weigh in on this but first I thought I would check out the poll numbers.
At any rate being the uneducated sod I am, I found a note listing a total of 70 voters. When the individual votes are counted it adds up to 91.
yes votes are 34, 48.57%
No votes are 35,5 %
Break votes are 8, 11.43%
Make votes are 20, 20%
Now no matter how I does my arithmetic, I can't gets anything to add up. The total votes are not the expected 100%, but 130%.
Maybe Hillary's old campaign manager found a new position managing forum polls.
If I buy an Apple I expect to get 100% of the apple. Now if you can explain how I can get 130% of an apple, I am all ears, and no I am not Vulcan, but thanks for asking.
Sam
Well...Sam...it's due to the fact that...like an idiot...I allowed multiple choice answers. I realized later I shouldn't have done that...I think it's confusing and caused people to vote incorrectly. There are two questions with two answers. I hoped that people would choose one answer to each question...but alas...a few folks chose to answer one without the other.
The most accurate way to look at the inaccurate is to add the numbers from the top two answers. That's really what I've been paying attention too. Some folks only voted using the bottom two answers that's why it won't add up to 100%.
Regardless of the numbers...I think your input is important...so fire away.
Thanks ahead of time...
Focusing on Event, Portrait, and Humanitarian Work.... www.jonathanwphotography.com
Location: Oklahoma City, Oklahoma
"Regardless of the numbers...I think your input is important...so fire away.
Thanks ahead of time..."
OK now that we have the numbers unstraightened out, we can move on, but you probably don't want me to fire away.
Let me try to be somewhat diplomatic.
While I understand your, and the others who are arguing your view point, but from the sidelines it starting to look like a bunch of children (see, I told you you don't want me to fire away) throwing food all over the kitchen demanding desert.
I acknowledge you have a valid point, but to shout, and belabor the point isn't going to help your cause.
I don't have a horse in this race so I'm good with the outcome ether way.
It's really easy for you, and me, to demand what we want, when it it doesn't cost us anything, and there are no liabilities for us.
Smugmug has a valid point as well, but does have costs, and liabilities based on their decision. At least in their minds.
I can't remember when I have seen a company as committed to their clients, and actually listen to them as Smugmug.
They have heard you and they will need time to kick this around. From what I read this would be a major departure from their former thinking, and will require great thought.
Should they decide to turn loose of this information, they can never go back and undo it.
If a business or person could make a decision to change their basic philosophy in less than 30 days I would consider it ether an epiphany, or reckless.
In Summary, give them 30 days and then ask them where they are at with this issue. After all it's not like this is new, or a recent departure from they way they do business.
If at that time they decide they can't comply with your request, and it's a deal breaker for you, go find a vendor that better meets your needs.
I would ask you to think about this: They have said they are thinking about this, and I haven't seen a lot of bull%^&^%&^ come from these guys, so they are thinking about it. So far the poll has shown 34 people who want the info, and 8 who believe it's a deal breaker. They have thousands of customers. I can tell you for a fact most businesses that have 8 customers who may, and quote "may" leave the fold out of thousands wouldn't even blink, much less consider it.
"Regardless of the numbers...I think your input is important...so fire away.
Thanks ahead of time..."
OK now that we have the numbers unstraightened out, we can move on, but you probably don't want me to fire away.
Let me try to be somewhat diplomatic.
While I understand your, and the others who are arguing your view point, but from the sidelines it starting to look like a bunch of children (see, I told you you don't want me to fire away) throwing food all over the kitchen demanding desert.
I acknowledge you have a valid point, but to shout, and belabor the point isn't going to help your cause.
I don't have a horse in this race so I'm good with the outcome ether way.
It's really easy for you, and me, to demand what we want, when it it doesn't cost us anything, and there are no liabilities for us.
Smugmug has a valid point as well, but does have costs, and liabilities based on their decision. At least in their minds.
I can't remember when I have seen a company as committed to their clients, and actually listen to them as Smugmug.
They have heard you and they will need time to kick this around. From what I read this would be a major departure from their former thinking, and will require great thought.
Should they decide to turn loose of this information, they can never go back and undo it.
If a business or person could make a decision to change their basic philosophy in less than 30 days I would consider it ether an epiphany, or reckless.
In Summary, give them 30 days and then ask them where they are at with this issue. After all it's not like this is new, or a recent departure from they way they do business.
If at that time they decide they can't comply with your request, and it's a deal breaker for you, go find a vendor that better meets your needs.
I would ask you to think about this: They have said they are thinking about this, and I haven't seen a lot of bull%^&^%&^ come from these guys, so they are thinking about it. So far the poll has shown 34 people who want the info, and 8 who believe it's a deal breaker. They have thousands of customers. I can tell you for a fact most businesses that have 8 customers who may, and quote "may" leave the fold out of thousands wouldn't even blink, much less consider it.
Sam
Sam...with all due respect to your diplomatic effort...at least read the posts...I'll copy and paste my summary from a few days ago...
“While I'm not totally convinced yet (I'm giving the SM folks about 60 days)...I'm pretty sure we're not going to fit well together in the future. It's sad...because while SM was there for me during the "thin" of things they don't seem to be ideal during the "thick".”
I at least gave them 60 days...
Back to the point...I'm on the fence about making an considerable investment into the future of my business. I've already invested countless hours into my SM site and to the workflow that surrounds it. It would be, as you put it, reckless for me not to put considerable effort into insuring the success of my business...the core of which are my customers.
[FONT="]This discussion was originally brought forth in late 2006...when i first joined. At the time I thought to myself "they're wise enough to realize that there is a demand for this...it will be put in the development timeline and implimented by the time that it really becomes an issue for me."
I made it clear in my first post that I have no more patience...and that if a definitive timeline isn't provided then I have no reason to renew my subscription...no offense, but SM just doesn't fit my business model. You're implying that I just woke up one day and demanded a feature and that I think SM should fix it--now.
All I'm really after...is a definitive answer from SM as to how they are going to equalize the customer relationship...and a timeline in which that is going to happen. Again...60 days is how much time, given my business plan, that I have to wait for this.
I'm encouraged and grateful that Andy took time out of his day to respond multiple times to this post. I realize that they are "Thinking about it"...but that's not reason enough to stop the discussion.
[/FONT]And Sam, if you don't care about the issue...then it appears that your motive was to rebuke the the folks who are legitimately trying to improve their business and to defend your own personal feelings and the relationship you have with SM.
And for the record...I have the utmost respect for Andy and the SM crew. If I didn't, then I wouldn't have even approached the issue; I would have just packed up and moved along.
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Focusing on Event, Portrait, and Humanitarian Work.... www.jonathanwphotography.com
Location: Oklahoma City, Oklahoma
Sam...with all due respect to your diplomatic effort...at least read the posts...I'll copy and paste my summary from a few days ago...
“While I'm not totally convinced yet (I'm giving the SM folks about 60 days)...I'm pretty sure we're not going to fit well together in the future. It's sad...because while SM was there for me during the "thin" of things they don't seem to be ideal during the "thick".”
I at least gave them 60 days...
Back to the point...I'm on the fence about making an considerable investment into the future of my business. I've already invested countless hours into my SM site and to the workflow that surrounds it. It would be, as you put it, reckless for me not to put considerable effort into insuring the success of my business...the core of which are my customers.
[FONT="]This discussion was originally brought forth in late 2006...when i first joined. At the time I thought to myself "they're wise enough to realize that there is a demand for this...it will be put in the development timeline and implimented by the time that it really becomes an issue for me."
I made it clear in my first post that I have no more patience...and that if a definitive timeline isn't provided then I have no reason to renew my subscription...no offense, but SM just doesn't fit my business model. You're implying that I just woke up one day and demanded a feature and that I think SM should fix it--now.
All I'm really after...is a definitive answer from SM as to how they are going to equalize the customer relationship...and a timeline in which that is going to happen. Again...60 days is how much time, given my business plan, that I have to wait for this.
I'm encouraged and grateful that Andy took time out of his day to respond multiple times to this post. I realize that they are "Thinking about it"...but that's not reason enough to stop the discussion.
[/FONT]And Sam, if you don't care about the issue...then it appears that your motive was to rebuke the the folks who are legitimately trying to improve their business and to defend your own personal feelings and the relationship you have with SM.
And for the record...I have the utmost respect for Andy and the SM crew. If I didn't, then I wouldn't have even approached the issue; I would have just packed up and moved along.
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Hi Johnathan,
First I would like to make CLEAR!!! (large type, raising voice) I have NOTHING against you or your desire for this information. Effective communication via the written word can be very difficult. I am not trying to insult or be nasty, just to express my view.
The only thing I have read on this subject is this post which began on Feb 5Th. I was not aware this was brought up in 2006. I would not have signed up for a service simply in the hope, that said company would implement a feature / policy I wanted. I do realize the amount of effort involved for an on line site, but if this issue was addressed in 2006 prior to signing up, and putting all your effort in, and the answer was no then, why did you sign up?
As to the reckless statement, that was for Smugmug, not you.
I have read your rational: "This discussion was originally brought forth in late 2006...when i first joined. At the time I thought to myself "they're wise enough to realize that there is a demand for this...it will be put in the development time line and implemented by the time that it really becomes an issue for me."
You seem to have made a thought out decision that isn't working out for you. That happens in business. Change gears, implement a new plan.
"And Sam, if you don't care about the issue...then it appears that your motive was to rebuke the the folks who are legitimately trying to improve their business and to defend your own personal feelings and the relationship you have with SM."
Two reasons: One I have too much time on my hands right now, and second, I am continually amazed at some of the business decision / question type posts I am reading both here and on some other boards. I don't bother to post there. I am posting here in the hope a different view might be of some minor benefit.
Your post was just one more added to the pile.
What I read (again the written word is difficult), is people shouting, (large type) winning, complaining, demanding, a service that has never been provided by this supplier.
You state: I made it clear in my first post that I have no more patience"
You have lost your Patience with a company who told you two years ago they don't have this service, and explained their business policies with regard to this subject?
I do understand asking Smugmug for this, and asking for a definitive answer. That I believe is reasonable.
You and others have made a decision to sign up, and put forth effort on your site, and apparently this decision isn't working out for you. It was your decision, if it was a wrong decision take responsibility for it, and move on.
Note: No service, tool, camera, product or policy will last forever. All these things have a finite useful time span.
It is a pain to redo, revamp, buy new etc. but it is part of being in business.
VERY interesting thread. Most of these points have come up in other posts in the time I've enjoyed with SM.
On the customer information point: It doesn't really seem to be the main issue here. It IS a major issue -- I do agree that a range of solution are needed: and quickly.
And it seems fundamental to me that if MY client accesses SM through MY site I should a be the primary touch point, have co-branding rights AND have access not only to client information, but also to shipping and other fulfillment information such as ship date and customer comments.
I also whole heartedly agree with several of the other issues mentioned, package pricing, couponing and print discounts among them. These traditional photographic service features are simply taking too long to implement.
But the above, I suggest, are only symptoms of the core problem the thread exposes: fundamental misunderstandings concerning Web-based business-to-business relationships on the part of management.
I suggest the Sony/Best Buy model signals this in aces. Best Buy, for all intents and purposes, purchases products from Sony for resale. They do not work on a commission basis. Sony provides customer service, to a degree, but the analogy quite simply ends there. It's a totally product-based relationship. Best But has NO exposure or interest in the intellectual property attached to those products and I'm fairly certain Sony would NOT just hand it over to Best Buy for them to control. It's simply not Best Buy's core competency!
The model does, perhaps, apply to SM's dealing with the photo sharing, print purchasing clients, but has, in my humble opinion, absolutely NO place in a serious, business-to-business, model.
SM, in it's dealing with Pro account holders (as opposed to print purchasers), is dealing SOLELY in intellectual property. And job one, in my humble opinion, is for that to be understood!
Which brings me to what I see as the primary issue in this thread, most succinctly expressed in post #13:
...All that said, The more I think about this the more I realize that SmugMug is providing a service that isn't really geared towards those who are wanting the truly professional experience.
I think that as I progress in my business I'm finding that while SM has a great product and it's served me well in this phase...they really don't provide the means for me or other Pro photog's to progress to the next Phase ... In a practical sense...
I think SmugMug should consider another level of their service that provides Pros with all of the current tools *plus* full control of the client base (heck, build some tools that help with marketing...like email announcements and mail outs and such) and the ability to remove all of the SM branding (especially from the shopping cart...I constantly get "Who is SmugMug" from my clients). Personally I would pay $300 to $500 a year for this service...
Without the above features SmugMug will become and remain a second-tier service provider in my opinion. JRW
Don't get me wrong here. I happen to think SM is a fantastic Web app. Well implemented and top-tier -- as a consumer and semi-pro service provider to the U.S. market. And based solely on those merits I've been investing time, money and effort to see if they will live up to the implied promise of providing a truly international, pro service back end.
But I've been here a year now. Plenty has been posted about the short-comings of the pro service and the various threads do appear to get a lot of attention, but little has actually changed on the pro account end.
In the end, pro services may well NOT be a primary business focus for SM. And that is entirely SM's call. But if this is the case I'd like to say, rather strongly, that it seems one heck of a missed opportunity.
SM shows very clearly that it CAN be tops in the field -- and not just to the U.S. market!
(Yes, I know you have plenty of international clients. But the business focus is unmistakably U.S.- centric in every way, from fullfillment to membership perks.)
I'll still be around for a while. I do like the community. And I find it exciting and interesting to watch a new-age, family-based, business grow and flower. But whether or not SM becomes my primary back-end is very much up in the air.
I truly do hope it can happen.
The design of the upcomg stock sales engine will be telling in that regard.
I'm tuned in to see what the SM team has to say about it. Even if the answer is a definitive no. There should be some resolution to this soon.
Is anything ever definitive? We said at the beginning of SmugMug Pro that we weren't sharing anything and then later on, after this kind of customer input, began sharing the customer email information.
Yes Andy. Definitive is defined as a final decision. Changes are made to final decisions from the past every day.
I'm sure SM"s previous decision to not share info was definitive at the time it was made.
Yes Andy. Definitive is defined as a final decision. Changes are made to final decisions from the past every day.
I'm sure SM"s previous decision to not share info was definitive at the time it was made.
What I meant was, I'd hate for us to pigeon-hole ourselves
Thanks for your contribution to the thread, it's really appreciated!
I tried to read through this thread a little better in order to get a grasp of the situation.....just couldn't make it through the whole thing, sorry.
On the surface it reminds me of the people that buy a house at the end of a runway then complain about plane noise.
I did take time to thoroughly read SmugMugs terms and conditions before signing up. I can tell you this, they have kept their word without fail. They have fufilled their end of the agreement flawlessly.
They have responded to every problem I have submitted within a matter of minutes in most cases and within a few hours on everything else.
I can just imagine if the shoe was on the other foot, if SmugMug decided to make a change to our agreement that takes something away from us. I bet this same crowd would raise the roof!
To me that is the same as signing an agreement then demanding something outside of what was agreed upon.
Andy, and the SmugMug Staff, you must have the patience of a saint.
I am sorry you have to deal with all this stuff when you could be working on something more productive.....or just relaxing:D
I tried to read through this thread a little better in order to get a grasp of the situation.....just couldn't make it through the whole thing, sorry.
On the surface it reminds me of the people that buy a house at the end of a runway then complain about plane noise.
I did take time to thoroughly read SmugMugs terms and conditions before signing up. I can tell you this, they have kept their word without fail. They have fufilled their end of the agreement flawlessly.
They have responded to every problem I have submitted within a matter of minutes in most cases and within a few hours on everything else.
I can just imagine if the shoe was on the other foot, if SmugMug decided to make a change to our agreement that takes something away from us. I bet this same crowd would raise the roof!
To me that is the same as signing an agreement then demanding something outside of what was agreed upon.
Andy, and the SmugMug Staff, you must have the patience of a saint.
I am sorry you have to deal with all this stuff when you could be working on something more productive.....or just relaxing:D
Marty
So you never want any changes or improvements, only EXACTLY what it was when you signed up :-))
If I have an idea or request I will state my case and clarify my position to a reasonable extent. If I find myself at an impass I will consider my options and move on. Change gears as someone else said earlier.
I don't like to bulldoze myself into position unless their is a boatload of money involved. I don't see that potential in getting a mailing address and phone number in addition to an email address. In fact, most people screen their calls and don't answer when they don't recognize the number and some studies show that ninety percent of unsolicited mailers wind up in the trash. It's a lot cheaper to have one's email deleted.
Also, I am not consumed by a blinding desire to prove that I am right, or that you are wrong. You (figuratively) can be right while I am busy at the bank.
I like to choose my battles. If there is a clear potential of a substantial profit, I will try to be a little more persuasive.
A good negotiator knows when to push and when to give back.
A good business person knows the drawbacks of becoming so difficult that people stop doing business with you. I have seen it happen time after time.
So as a long answer to a short question:) I do not always just go with the status quo but on the other hand I try to maintain a certain level of professionalism when it comes to making and honoring agreements.
...I don't see that potential in getting a mailing address and phone number in addition to an email address. In fact, most people screen their calls and don't answer when they don't recognize the number and some studies show that ninety percent of unsolicited mailers wind up in the trash. It's a lot cheaper to have one's email deleted...
I think the people who want the data consider it to be helpful for persuading people to buy more, either directly via solicitations or indirectly by following up on orders and asking if poeple are happy with the products.
What a great series of different opinions displayed here! I've enjoyed reading much of it and participating. I have also read the TOS and the Privacy Policy and that is why I feel disappointed by this issue. My expectations of Smugmug exist exactly because they keep their standards so high, and regularly live up to them. But to suggest that we should not be permitted to receive our customer's full information while at the same time referring to their own use of this personal information (from their Privacy Policy) in the same way we would wish to use it seems antithetical to their actions/philosophies in most other areas:
How We Use Personal Information
In general, we use personal information collected on the Site to provide the Services and otherwise process transactions on the Site, to provide support for the Services, to respond to user requests and inquiries, to maintain a record of our dealings with Site users, to develop new products and services and to inform users about products or services we think will be of interest.
For example, we use your information to process orders of subscriptions to the Services or purchases or prints or other products, to communicate with you about your product purchases, your subscription(s) and/or use of the Services or the Site, to provide support in response to your inquiries, to send you promotional materials via email and postal mail, to improve our products and services and to develop new products and services. When we use your personal information in our internal marketing efforts, we provide you with choices (see "Choice," below). We may also receive information from third parties with whom we have business relationships, and may combine this information with the other personal information we maintain about you (for example, we may receive updated information about you, such as an updated billing address, from the financial institution issuing your credit card in connection with billing for Services). If we do so, this Policy governs such information.
I'd like to state again that I have been very happy with smugmug and, as a business owner, recognize and respect their right to do exactly as they wish for their business. I also don't have a need for the information they gather as my clients are mostly known to me and I already have their 411. I just think on principle that the double standard is so truly uncool... something I would never have expected from such a cool group of people.
Thanks to everyone,
-erik
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Erik Grammer, Photography
Los Angeles, California www.erikgrammer.com
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I have a hard time understanding why this is always such a major issue. You get the buyer's email address - why not just send them an email as Andy suggests and offer to add them to your USPS mailing list? If they want you to have their address then you'll get it from them. If not, just leave them on your email mailing list.
Plus, I think there's a strong argument to be made which says that these *aren't* entirely your customers. In fact they are SmugMug's and you are providing images to SmugMug which are sold on a hybrid consignment model.
*****
Finally, regarding the Google Findability issue (off topic here, but it was mentioned)... One of the biggest problems that is extremely easy to fix is the Page Title inside a Gallery!! The page title is highly weighted for keywords by the search engines... there would be a marked improvement if the Title assigned to a gallery was the actual Gallery Name (or Category name in Category Pages).
With today's model, Google sees a thousand pages with exactly the same title & it therefore cannot use that to understand the content. It hurts the display of results as well - while I'm on page 1 for "Plymouth Ice festival photos", the link to my SM gallery of these pics looks unrelated because it reads "Cincinnati Photographer Ryan Dlugosz...".
That's a simple change from a programming point of view and would make a big difference. It'd be even better if this were configurable in the Options for each Gallery, but I'd be happy if it was just the title! This issue has been brought up over and over, but there's no change.
Yes, this is useful when searching for "Andy Williams", but that's not what I'm going for - I'm looking for people who are looking for photographs of a specific thing & may randomly buy a print. They're not going to search for my name if they're looking for Ice Sculptures.
I agree.
If they want you to have their address, they'll give it to you.
Communicate via email if you wish to get physical addresses.
I think there have been many good posts in this thread but (at least in my contributions) perhaps the context overshadowed the content; in rereading my own posts, I think I do come across as a bit demanding and/or whiny in at least one of my responses. For that, I apologize.
On the couple occasions I have contacted SmugMug regarding problems with orders or general questions about my pro account they have been nothing but heroic. For that, I am thankful. Same goes for those paid and unpaid who contribute to Drgin.
I do wish to have the information on our customers (who order my pictures vis-a-vis SmugMug), but it's not a deal-breaker for me personally. I know how much it costs to host a site on your own (monetarily, work load, storage, headaches, etc.) and believe in the long run I'll do better with my partnership with SmugMug.
My interest in getting the information is to drive more business through my SmugMug site to the benefit of the collective 'we'. I think that's been acknowledged so I probably won't post anything else.
And it looks like good waves and weather are on tap for the weekend so I'll go take some pictures, enjoy the sunshine and revel in the glorious beauty of the Pacific Ocean and those denizens who reside upon fiberglass and foam planks, artisanal acrobats charging and flowing upon her rippled surface.
As a customer who is buying something from SmugMug, I don't want them giving any of my personal information to somebody else so they can market to me. I don't want any more unsolicited junk mail than I already receive thank you.
Yes, I am buying the photographer's blood, sweat, and tears but in the end the purchase agreement is with SmugMug. From what I can tell, you even clearly end up on SM.com when completing your order. With all due respect to the pros who work their butts off to get shots us rookies dream of, SmugMug is selling the photos... not you. I just think it's the price you pay for having SumgMug handle all of the fullfillment of the order for you.
As a customer who is buying something from SmugMug, I don't want them giving any of my personal information to somebody else so they can market to me. I don't want any more unsolicited junk mail than I already receive thank you.
Yes, I am buying the photographer's blood, sweat, and tears but in the end the purchase agreement is with SmugMug. From what I can tell, you even clearly end up on SM.com when completing your order. With all due respect to the pros who work their butts off to get shots us rookies dream of, SmugMug is selling the photos... not you. I just think it's the price you pay for having SumgMug handle all of the fullfillment of the order for you.
Great point! Thanks for adding the customers' perspective!
I agree. Whole heartedly. But ONLY if you are there solely as an SM customer.
More to the point, I feel SM handles that very well now.
BUT, if you went to SM as MY customer (my link) and are purchasing prints or dowwloads of my photographs from my galleries, I believe that ball is in a different court and should therefore be treated differently.
Great point! Thanks for adding the customers' perspective!
I agree. Whole heartedly. But ONLY if you are there solely as an SM customer.
More to the point, I feel SM handles that very well now.
BUT, if you went to SM as MY customer (my link) and are purchasing prints or dowwloads of my photographs from my galleries, I believe that ball is in a different court and should therefore be treated differently.
I totally understand your point. But I think "technically" (the problem here) I'm still a customer of SM. You're just referring me there. Even though I'm buying your work (the image), my "contract" is with SM as they are providing the print.
I don't know, maybe there is a way SM could retain the names and privacy of their customers while still providing a way for photographers to communicate with their customers?
As a customer who is buying something from SmugMug, I don't want them giving any of my personal information to somebody else so they can market to me. I don't want any more unsolicited junk mail than I already receive thank you.
Chuck,
Thanks for weighing in with a new perspective! I have a couple of questions because I think this is a great opportunity to figure out how end-users view both smugmug and photographers:
-Am I correct that you are totally fine with smugmug using the information they gather about you to market products to you that they think you might be interested in? Because they state in their Privacy Policy that they reserve that right. They simply don't extend that right to the photographers. (And in fact they refer to photographers who would do such a thing as spammers.)
-From what I read in your post it suggested to me that you were concerned that if they provided your information to the photographer that you might be subject to unsolicited junk mail. Why is this more of a concern to you from the photographer than from smugmug?
I would theorize (prematurely:D) that smugmug's policies regarding customer information reflect both the print-purchaser's concerns about privacy (which extends as far as their purchase interface but no further) as well as a compartmentalized view of their overall customer base. This would actually be a pretty nuanced approach to customer management where buyers are carefully categorized and policies are enacted and tailored to these specific sub-groups. hmmmmm...
Thanks again for taking the time to help us figure all this out!
-erik
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Erik Grammer, Photography
Los Angeles, California www.erikgrammer.com
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Chuck,
Thanks for weighing in with a new perspective! I have a couple of questions because I think this is a great opportunity to figure out how end-users view both smugmug and photographers:
-Am I correct that you are totally fine with smugmug using the information they gather about you to market products to you that they think you might be interested in? Because they state in their Privacy Policy that they reserve that right. They simply don't extend that right to the photographers. (And in fact they refer to photographers who would do such a thing as spammers.)
-From what I read in your post it suggested to me that you were concerned that if they provided your information to the photographer that you might be subject to unsolicited junk mail. Why is this more of a concern to you from the photographer than from smugmug?
I would theorize (prematurely:D) that smugmug's policies regarding customer information reflect both the print-purchaser's concerns about privacy (which extends as far as their purchase interface but no further) as well as a compartmentalized view of their overall customer base. This would actually be a pretty nuanced approach to customer management where buyers are carefully categorized and policies are enacted and tailored to these specific sub-groups. hmmmmm...
Thanks again for taking the time to help us figure all this out!
-erik
#1 - Yes I am fine with SM using that information as outlined in their policy. I am glad they don't give the info to strangers too.
#2 - You are correct. I am more comfortable with SM doing this than a photographer (more below).
With all due respect to pro photographers...
I view SM as a more "serious" business than a photographer selling pics on SM. Generally, the more "serious" (again, I'm sorry... it's probably not the best term but I will use to just to draw the line between the 2) businesses are pretty good as not sending unsolicited email and junk when asked not to do so. I have concerns that if I my information is given to someone else, they may not take it as serious as I would like.
I am more comfortable buying things from a business as opposed to an individual over the internet. I think there's a better chance the business will be around to address concerns should any arise. (I think that's a better way to explain my thought as opposed to the word "serious")
Theory: Maybe people would be more likely to buy photos from a SM powered site if it was clear that SM was fulfilling the order not the photographer? I know I would be more likely.
...Maybe people would be more likely to buy photos from a SM powered site if it was clear that SM was fulfilling the order not the photographer? I know I would be more likely.
Interesting perspective. And understandable. But look at it this way.
People hire me to shoot their event/subject matter. Then they go to my (SM) site to view photos. Most seem to be scared away from ordering prints for various reasons -- exchange, credit cards on-line, extra shipping charges, no packages, and so on -- so they call me directly to order prints.
That, right off the bat, is a dissapointment, becasue I was hoping SM would be welcoming enough to relieve me of that time consuming hassle.
Anyway, a few do order through SM.
Then they comment that two weeks later, when the prints arrived, they were unsure what they were receiving because my name was nowhere to be seen. Not onthe package. And not in the package. Only on the backprinting and, in all cases I'm aware of, that printing is too small and too blurred to read without a careful look.
They knew it was me who shot the event. They new it was my site they ordered from, so what they expected was a package that would at least have my name on it.
Make sense?
I mean, to use the example from this thread, if you order a radio from Best Buy at the very least it still has the Sony brand on it when it's delivered. You know it came from Best Buy. But you also know it is a Sony product. Great partnership! Right? A solid manufacturer and a solid outlet.
To exacerbate the problem, I'm completely booted from the fulfilment chain. I'm informed that and order has been received. But I'm not told when it ships. I'm not told when it has arrived. And, as far as I know, I'm not told if there is a quality problem.
This leaves me two solutions. 1/ Waitfor the client to call to ask why they haven't seen their prints yet, or 2/ call the client, out of the blue, and ask them if they have received their prints yet. (Like I don't know?) And I'm affraid that leaves the impression that I am not tending my affairs closely enough.
So, while I agree with you when one is ordering novelty prints from photo sharing galleries, I do not think you would feel the same way if you thought you were ordering from your professional photographer of choice.
They really are two separate business models. And they should be treated as such.
I am more comfortable buying things from a business as opposed to an individual over the internet. I think there's a better chance the business will be around to address concerns should any arise. (I think that's a better way to explain my thought as opposed to the word "serious")
Theory: Maybe people would be more likely to buy photos from a SM powered site if it was clear that SM was fulfilling the order not the photographer? I know I would be more likely.
As is the case in many other professions there are varying levels of "professional". As I mentioned in previous posts...the current business model caters well to the sort of customer/client relationship that your referencing.
Personally, my whole effort is aimed at raising the bar to the next level.
Case in point...if you were to go to your nearest bookstore and yank a few of today's most popular mags (Time, USNews, Vogue, etc) and document as many of the photographers as you could....I would bet that not one of them uses SM for any piece of their work flow. Why? because to the majority of those folks SM is for "Amateurs"...and their customers...the publications would probably laugh them out of the building if their proof book was on SM.
There are numerous obvious reasons why, but to imply that the customer that those Photogs are catering to and the customer that your catering to and the customer that I cater to are the same isn't fair.
Further, many of the photographers that I aspire to be someday run studios with many hands and a management team to boot...to suggest that they aren't a "business" is a little disconcerting...
Focusing on Event, Portrait, and Humanitarian Work.... www.jonathanwphotography.com
Location: Oklahoma City, Oklahoma
Excellent points. I have a better understanding of the frustration now.
I don't know the history of SM, but I have a feeling it started as a "hobbiest" thing and grew to the beast it is today. It may be time for a "new" pro account with some of the finctionality you want if SM thinks it's worth it.
Again, with all due respect...
Is part of the problem your fault for not making it more clear to your customers that SM would be handling the printing of their photos and not you? Bestbuy makes it clear to me I'm buying a Sony radio so I know where it's coming from.
You could insert yourself in the fulfillment process by taking the order yourself. Order it from SM then send it directly to your customer. Problems solved. You'll have the address and you can control the logo that goes on the package sent to them.
You could insert yourself in the fulfillment process by taking the order yourself. Order it from SM then send it directly to your customer. Problems solved. You'll have the address and you can control the logo that goes on the package sent to them.
Hmmm. Great idea! In fact, that is pretty much they way it works now -- by customers' choice. Thing is, it reduces the value add of SM greatly while adding complexity to the fulfillment chain.
And, frankly, once the problem is put into perspective I think it'll work out. It's simply too in-you-face to remain like this for much longer.
Comments
Erik for President!
www.jonathanwphotography.com
Location: Oklahoma City, Oklahoma
At any rate being the uneducated sod I am, I found a note listing a total of 70 voters. When the individual votes are counted it adds up to 91.
yes votes are 34, 48.57%
No votes are 35,5 %
Break votes are 8, 11.43%
Make votes are 20, 20%
Now no matter how I does my arithmetic, I can't gets anything to add up. The total votes are not the expected 100%, but 130%.
Maybe Hillary's old campaign manager found a new position managing forum polls.
If I buy an Apple I expect to get 100% of the apple. Now if you can explain how I can get 130% of an apple, I am all ears, and no I am not Vulcan, but thanks for asking.
Sam
I think it's because multiple selection is possible.. i.e. half voted for either of the 1st 2 choices, and could also vote for one of the other 2.
Wedding Photographer Glasgow | Scotland
SWPP Pet Photographer of the Year 2010
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Well...Sam...it's due to the fact that...like an idiot...I allowed multiple choice answers. I realized later I shouldn't have done that...I think it's confusing and caused people to vote incorrectly. There are two questions with two answers. I hoped that people would choose one answer to each question...but alas...a few folks chose to answer one without the other.
The most accurate way to look at the inaccurate
Regardless of the numbers...I think your input is important...so fire away.
Thanks ahead of time...
www.jonathanwphotography.com
Location: Oklahoma City, Oklahoma
Thanks ahead of time..."
OK now that we have the numbers unstraightened out, we can move on, but you probably don't want me to fire away.
Let me try to be somewhat diplomatic.
While I understand your, and the others who are arguing your view point, but from the sidelines it starting to look like a bunch of children (see, I told you you don't want me to fire away) throwing food all over the kitchen demanding desert.
I acknowledge you have a valid point, but to shout, and belabor the point isn't going to help your cause.
I don't have a horse in this race so I'm good with the outcome ether way.
It's really easy for you, and me, to demand what we want, when it it doesn't cost us anything, and there are no liabilities for us.
Smugmug has a valid point as well, but does have costs, and liabilities based on their decision. At least in their minds.
I can't remember when I have seen a company as committed to their clients, and actually listen to them as Smugmug.
They have heard you and they will need time to kick this around. From what I read this would be a major departure from their former thinking, and will require great thought.
Should they decide to turn loose of this information, they can never go back and undo it.
If a business or person could make a decision to change their basic philosophy in less than 30 days I would consider it ether an epiphany, or reckless.
In Summary, give them 30 days and then ask them where they are at with this issue. After all it's not like this is new, or a recent departure from they way they do business.
If at that time they decide they can't comply with your request, and it's a deal breaker for you, go find a vendor that better meets your needs.
I would ask you to think about this: They have said they are thinking about this, and I haven't seen a lot of bull%^&^%&^ come from these guys, so they are thinking about it. So far the poll has shown 34 people who want the info, and 8 who believe it's a deal breaker. They have thousands of customers. I can tell you for a fact most businesses that have 8 customers who may, and quote "may" leave the fold out of thousands wouldn't even blink, much less consider it.
Sam
Sam...with all due respect to your diplomatic effort...at least read the posts...I'll copy and paste my summary from a few days ago...
“While I'm not totally convinced yet (I'm giving the SM folks about 60 days)...I'm pretty sure we're not going to fit well together in the future. It's sad...because while SM was there for me during the "thin" of things they don't seem to be ideal during the "thick".”
I at least gave them 60 days...
Back to the point...I'm on the fence about making an considerable investment into the future of my business. I've already invested countless hours into my SM site and to the workflow that surrounds it. It would be, as you put it, reckless for me not to put considerable effort into insuring the success of my business...the core of which are my customers.
[FONT="]This discussion was originally brought forth in late 2006...when i first joined. At the time I thought to myself "they're wise enough to realize that there is a demand for this...it will be put in the development timeline and implimented by the time that it really becomes an issue for me."
I made it clear in my first post that I have no more patience...and that if a definitive timeline isn't provided then I have no reason to renew my subscription...no offense, but SM just doesn't fit my business model. You're implying that I just woke up one day and demanded a feature and that I think SM should fix it--now.
All I'm really after...is a definitive answer from SM as to how they are going to equalize the customer relationship...and a timeline in which that is going to happen. Again...60 days is how much time, given my business plan, that I have to wait for this.
I'm encouraged and grateful that Andy took time out of his day to respond multiple times to this post. I realize that they are "Thinking about it"...but that's not reason enough to stop the discussion.
[/FONT]And Sam, if you don't care about the issue...then it appears that your motive was to rebuke the the folks who are legitimately trying to improve their business and to defend your own personal feelings and the relationship you have with SM.
And for the record...I have the utmost respect for Andy and the SM crew. If I didn't, then I wouldn't have even approached the issue; I would have just packed up and moved along.
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www.jonathanwphotography.com
Location: Oklahoma City, Oklahoma
Hi Johnathan,
First I would like to make CLEAR!!! (large type, raising voice) I have NOTHING against you or your desire for this information. Effective communication via the written word can be very difficult. I am not trying to insult or be nasty, just to express my view.
The only thing I have read on this subject is this post which began on Feb 5Th. I was not aware this was brought up in 2006. I would not have signed up for a service simply in the hope, that said company would implement a feature / policy I wanted. I do realize the amount of effort involved for an on line site, but if this issue was addressed in 2006 prior to signing up, and putting all your effort in, and the answer was no then, why did you sign up?
As to the reckless statement, that was for Smugmug, not you.
I have read your rational: "This discussion was originally brought forth in late 2006...when i first joined. At the time I thought to myself "they're wise enough to realize that there is a demand for this...it will be put in the development time line and implemented by the time that it really becomes an issue for me."
You seem to have made a thought out decision that isn't working out for you. That happens in business. Change gears, implement a new plan.
"And Sam, if you don't care about the issue...then it appears that your motive was to rebuke the the folks who are legitimately trying to improve their business and to defend your own personal feelings and the relationship you have with SM."
Two reasons: One I have too much time on my hands right now, and second, I am continually amazed at some of the business decision / question type posts I am reading both here and on some other boards. I don't bother to post there. I am posting here in the hope a different view might be of some minor benefit.
Your post was just one more added to the pile.
What I read (again the written word is difficult), is people shouting, (large type) winning, complaining, demanding, a service that has never been provided by this supplier.
You state: I made it clear in my first post that I have no more patience"
You have lost your Patience with a company who told you two years ago they don't have this service, and explained their business policies with regard to this subject?
I do understand asking Smugmug for this, and asking for a definitive answer. That I believe is reasonable.
You and others have made a decision to sign up, and put forth effort on your site, and apparently this decision isn't working out for you. It was your decision, if it was a wrong decision take responsibility for it, and move on.
Note: No service, tool, camera, product or policy will last forever. All these things have a finite useful time span.
It is a pain to redo, revamp, buy new etc. but it is part of being in business.
Sam
On the customer information point: It doesn't really seem to be the main issue here. It IS a major issue -- I do agree that a range of solution are needed: and quickly.
And it seems fundamental to me that if MY client accesses SM through MY site I should a be the primary touch point, have co-branding rights AND have access not only to client information, but also to shipping and other fulfillment information such as ship date and customer comments.
I also whole heartedly agree with several of the other issues mentioned, package pricing, couponing and print discounts among them. These traditional photographic service features are simply taking too long to implement.
But the above, I suggest, are only symptoms of the core problem the thread exposes: fundamental misunderstandings concerning Web-based business-to-business relationships on the part of management.
I suggest the Sony/Best Buy model signals this in aces. Best Buy, for all intents and purposes, purchases products from Sony for resale. They do not work on a commission basis. Sony provides customer service, to a degree, but the analogy quite simply ends there. It's a totally product-based relationship. Best But has NO exposure or interest in the intellectual property attached to those products and I'm fairly certain Sony would NOT just hand it over to Best Buy for them to control. It's simply not Best Buy's core competency!
The model does, perhaps, apply to SM's dealing with the photo sharing, print purchasing clients, but has, in my humble opinion, absolutely NO place in a serious, business-to-business, model.
SM, in it's dealing with Pro account holders (as opposed to print purchasers), is dealing SOLELY in intellectual property. And job one, in my humble opinion, is for that to be understood!
Which brings me to what I see as the primary issue in this thread, most succinctly expressed in post #13:
And for the finale:
Don't get me wrong here. I happen to think SM is a fantastic Web app. Well implemented and top-tier -- as a consumer and semi-pro service provider to the U.S. market. And based solely on those merits I've been investing time, money and effort to see if they will live up to the implied promise of providing a truly international, pro service back end.
But I've been here a year now. Plenty has been posted about the short-comings of the pro service and the various threads do appear to get a lot of attention, but little has actually changed on the pro account end.
In the end, pro services may well NOT be a primary business focus for SM. And that is entirely SM's call. But if this is the case I'd like to say, rather strongly, that it seems one heck of a missed opportunity.
SM shows very clearly that it CAN be tops in the field -- and not just to the U.S. market!
(Yes, I know you have plenty of international clients. But the business focus is unmistakably U.S.- centric in every way, from fullfillment to membership perks.)
I'll still be around for a while. I do like the community. And I find it exciting and interesting to watch a new-age, family-based, business grow and flower. But whether or not SM becomes my primary back-end is very much up in the air.
I truly do hope it can happen.
The design of the upcomg stock sales engine will be telling in that regard.
Great post on this subject! I really like the tone , and the way you were able to articulate your point of view. Well written, and to the point.
I think, ( never know for sure
Since we are asking, I am looking for a self fulfillment option.
Sam
Well put xris.
I'm tuned in to see what the SM team has to say about it. Even if the answer is a definitive no. There should be some resolution to this soon.
Portfolio • Workshops • Facebook • Twitter
I'm sure SM"s previous decision to not share info was definitive at the time it was made.
Thanks for your contribution to the thread, it's really appreciated!
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On the surface it reminds me of the people that buy a house at the end of a runway then complain about plane noise.
I did take time to thoroughly read SmugMugs terms and conditions before signing up. I can tell you this, they have kept their word without fail. They have fufilled their end of the agreement flawlessly.
They have responded to every problem I have submitted within a matter of minutes in most cases and within a few hours on everything else.
I can just imagine if the shoe was on the other foot, if SmugMug decided to make a change to our agreement that takes something away from us. I bet this same crowd would raise the roof!
To me that is the same as signing an agreement then demanding something outside of what was agreed upon.
Andy, and the SmugMug Staff, you must have the patience of a saint.
I am sorry you have to deal with all this stuff when you could be working on something more productive.....or just relaxing:D
Marty
So you never want any changes or improvements, only EXACTLY what it was when you signed up :-))
If I have an idea or request I will state my case and clarify my position to a reasonable extent. If I find myself at an impass I will consider my options and move on. Change gears as someone else said earlier.
I don't like to bulldoze myself into position unless their is a boatload of money involved. I don't see that potential in getting a mailing address and phone number in addition to an email address. In fact, most people screen their calls and don't answer when they don't recognize the number and some studies show that ninety percent of unsolicited mailers wind up in the trash. It's a lot cheaper to have one's email deleted.
Also, I am not consumed by a blinding desire to prove that I am right, or that you are wrong. You (figuratively) can be right while I am busy at the bank.
I like to choose my battles. If there is a clear potential of a substantial profit, I will try to be a little more persuasive.
A good negotiator knows when to push and when to give back.
A good business person knows the drawbacks of becoming so difficult that people stop doing business with you. I have seen it happen time after time.
So as a long answer to a short question:) I do not always just go with the status quo but on the other hand I try to maintain a certain level of professionalism when it comes to making and honoring agreements.
Marty
Good post with common sense.
Sam
I'd like to state again that I have been very happy with smugmug and, as a business owner, recognize and respect their right to do exactly as they wish for their business. I also don't have a need for the information they gather as my clients are mostly known to me and I already have their 411. I just think on principle that the double standard is so truly uncool... something I would never have expected from such a cool group of people.
Thanks to everyone,
-erik
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Erik Grammer, Photography
Los Angeles, California
www.erikgrammer.com
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I agree.
If they want you to have their address, they'll give it to you.
Communicate via email if you wish to get physical addresses.
On the couple occasions I have contacted SmugMug regarding problems with orders or general questions about my pro account they have been nothing but heroic. For that, I am thankful. Same goes for those paid and unpaid who contribute to Drgin.
I do wish to have the information on our customers (who order my pictures vis-a-vis SmugMug), but it's not a deal-breaker for me personally. I know how much it costs to host a site on your own (monetarily, work load, storage, headaches, etc.) and believe in the long run I'll do better with my partnership with SmugMug.
My interest in getting the information is to drive more business through my SmugMug site to the benefit of the collective 'we'. I think that's been acknowledged so I probably won't post anything else.
And it looks like good waves and weather are on tap for the weekend so I'll go take some pictures, enjoy the sunshine and revel in the glorious beauty of the Pacific Ocean and those denizens who reside upon fiberglass and foam planks, artisanal acrobats charging and flowing upon her rippled surface.
As a customer who is buying something from SmugMug, I don't want them giving any of my personal information to somebody else so they can market to me. I don't want any more unsolicited junk mail than I already receive thank you.
Yes, I am buying the photographer's blood, sweat, and tears but in the end the purchase agreement is with SmugMug. From what I can tell, you even clearly end up on SM.com when completing your order. With all due respect to the pros who work their butts off to get shots us rookies dream of, SmugMug is selling the photos... not you. I just think it's the price you pay for having SumgMug handle all of the fullfillment of the order for you.
I agree. Whole heartedly.
More to the point, I feel SM handles that very well now.
BUT, if you went to SM as MY customer (my link) and are purchasing prints or dowwloads of my photographs from my galleries, I believe that ball is in a different court and should therefore be treated differently.
I don't know, maybe there is a way SM could retain the names and privacy of their customers while still providing a way for photographers to communicate with their customers?
Thanks for weighing in with a new perspective! I have a couple of questions because I think this is a great opportunity to figure out how end-users view both smugmug and photographers:
-Am I correct that you are totally fine with smugmug using the information they gather about you to market products to you that they think you might be interested in? Because they state in their Privacy Policy that they reserve that right. They simply don't extend that right to the photographers. (And in fact they refer to photographers who would do such a thing as spammers.)
-From what I read in your post it suggested to me that you were concerned that if they provided your information to the photographer that you might be subject to unsolicited junk mail. Why is this more of a concern to you from the photographer than from smugmug?
I would theorize (prematurely:D) that smugmug's policies regarding customer information reflect both the print-purchaser's concerns about privacy (which extends as far as their purchase interface but no further) as well as a compartmentalized view of their overall customer base. This would actually be a pretty nuanced approach to customer management where buyers are carefully categorized and policies are enacted and tailored to these specific sub-groups. hmmmmm...
Thanks again for taking the time to help us figure all this out!
-erik
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Erik Grammer, Photography
Los Angeles, California
www.erikgrammer.com
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#2 - You are correct. I am more comfortable with SM doing this than a photographer (more below).
With all due respect to pro photographers...
I view SM as a more "serious" business than a photographer selling pics on SM. Generally, the more "serious" (again, I'm sorry... it's probably not the best term but I will use to just to draw the line between the 2) businesses are pretty good as not sending unsolicited email and junk when asked not to do so. I have concerns that if I my information is given to someone else, they may not take it as serious as I would like.
I am more comfortable buying things from a business as opposed to an individual over the internet. I think there's a better chance the business will be around to address concerns should any arise. (I think that's a better way to explain my thought as opposed to the word "serious")
Theory: Maybe people would be more likely to buy photos from a SM powered site if it was clear that SM was fulfilling the order not the photographer? I know I would be more likely.
Interesting perspective. And understandable. But look at it this way.
People hire me to shoot their event/subject matter. Then they go to my (SM) site to view photos. Most seem to be scared away from ordering prints for various reasons -- exchange, credit cards on-line, extra shipping charges, no packages, and so on -- so they call me directly to order prints.
That, right off the bat, is a dissapointment, becasue I was hoping SM would be welcoming enough to relieve me of that time consuming hassle.
Anyway, a few do order through SM.
Then they comment that two weeks later, when the prints arrived, they were unsure what they were receiving because my name was nowhere to be seen. Not onthe package. And not in the package. Only on the backprinting and, in all cases I'm aware of, that printing is too small and too blurred to read without a careful look.
They knew it was me who shot the event. They new it was my site they ordered from, so what they expected was a package that would at least have my name on it.
Make sense?
I mean, to use the example from this thread, if you order a radio from Best Buy at the very least it still has the Sony brand on it when it's delivered. You know it came from Best Buy. But you also know it is a Sony product. Great partnership! Right? A solid manufacturer and a solid outlet.
To exacerbate the problem, I'm completely booted from the fulfilment chain. I'm informed that and order has been received. But I'm not told when it ships. I'm not told when it has arrived. And, as far as I know, I'm not told if there is a quality problem.
This leaves me two solutions. 1/ Waitfor the client to call to ask why they haven't seen their prints yet, or 2/ call the client, out of the blue, and ask them if they have received their prints yet. (Like I don't know?) And I'm affraid that leaves the impression that I am not tending my affairs closely enough.
So, while I agree with you when one is ordering novelty prints from photo sharing galleries, I do not think you would feel the same way if you thought you were ordering from your professional photographer of choice.
They really are two separate business models. And they should be treated as such.
As is the case in many other professions there are varying levels of "professional". As I mentioned in previous posts...the current business model caters well to the sort of customer/client relationship that your referencing.
Personally, my whole effort is aimed at raising the bar to the next level.
Case in point...if you were to go to your nearest bookstore and yank a few of today's most popular mags (Time, USNews, Vogue, etc) and document as many of the photographers as you could....I would bet that not one of them uses SM for any piece of their work flow. Why? because to the majority of those folks SM is for "Amateurs"...and their customers...the publications would probably laugh them out of the building if their proof book was on SM.
There are numerous obvious reasons why, but to imply that the customer that those Photogs are catering to and the customer that your catering to and the customer that I cater to are the same isn't fair.
Further, many of the photographers that I aspire to be someday run studios with many hands and a management team to boot...to suggest that they aren't a "business" is a little disconcerting...
www.jonathanwphotography.com
Location: Oklahoma City, Oklahoma
I don't know the history of SM, but I have a feeling it started as a "hobbiest" thing and grew to the beast it is today. It may be time for a "new" pro account with some of the finctionality you want if SM thinks it's worth it.
Again, with all due respect...
Is part of the problem your fault for not making it more clear to your customers that SM would be handling the printing of their photos and not you? Bestbuy makes it clear to me I'm buying a Sony radio so I know where it's coming from.
You could insert yourself in the fulfillment process by taking the order yourself. Order it from SM then send it directly to your customer. Problems solved. You'll have the address and you can control the logo that goes on the package sent to them.
And, frankly, once the problem is put into perspective I think it'll work out. It's simply too in-you-face to remain like this for much longer.