Doomsday Scenario

itchyfeet · March 21, 2005

Hi

I am very concerned about losing my photos I upload on Smugmug. So, what would happen if Smugmug went bankrupt? Or something similar happened? One of the reasons I use Smugmug is to be a backup facility. Is there any chance we could suddenly lose our pictures, if say Smugmug went bankrupt or suffered data corruption itself? Are the photos on Smugmug backed up?

Thanks
Elliot

Nikolai · March 21, 2005

My $.02

itchyfeet wrote:

Hi

I am very concerned about losing my photos I upload on Smugmug. So, what would happen if Smugmug went bankrupt? Or something similar happened? One of the reasons I use Smugmug is to be a backup facility. Is there any chance we could suddenly lose our pictures, if say Smugmug went bankrupt or suffered data corruption itself? Are the photos on Smugmug backed up?

Thanks
Elliot

Just my thoughts on it:

while being paranoid is usually not a good thing, as any sysadmin can tell you there is no such thing as a REDUNDANT backup:-)
with DVD burners being under $100 and DVD media being under $1 per disk (well, in both cases you can go much higher $$$ if you want to, but those prices are a very solid average), there is no reason why you can't afford you own little backup system.
if you don't want to do your own backup, while smugmug is still up and runnning you can use their backup service and order a backup of your pictures. Will be slightly more expensive than solution #2, but with the same results.
if you're running any kind of business off your pictures/smugmug site, tape backup would be a MUST. It's bit more expensive than a DVD-based solution (especially software-wise), but you can definitely expense it.

HTH

Cheers!

itchyfeet · March 21, 2005

But...
Yeah, appreciate everything you say - very valid points.

Issue is this: I am off on a 7mth round the world trip and will not have access to my own computer. All I will have is my digital camera, SD card and internet cafes to upload pics with.

As my photos will be my most important asset, I want to upload them on a regular basis (i.e. back them up) in case I should lose the SD card/have my camera stolen etc. Also, I want to free up memory on the SD card to take more pics.

DO you think it is OK to rely on Smugmug as a backup in such circumstances?
Cheers!

Andy · March 21, 2005

itchyfeet wrote:

Yeah, appreciate everything you say - very valid points.

Issue is this: I am off on a 7mth round the world trip and will not have access to my own computer. All I will have is my digital camera, SD card and internet cafes to upload pics with.

As my photos will be my most important asset, I want to upload them on a regular basis (i.e. back them up) in case I should lose the SD card/have my camera stolen etc. Also, I want to free up memory on the SD card to take more pics.

DO you think it is OK to rely on Smugmug as a backup in such circumstances?
Cheers!

itchy,

have a great trip. smugmug will be here when you return, and so will your photos. fear not.

Mike Lane · March 21, 2005

andy wrote:

itchy,

have a great trip. smugmug will be here when you return, and so will your photos. fear not.

Where can I get a detailed report of Smugmug's fault tolerance and disaster recovery procedures? Is there a DR manual? How about security features for the ordering process. Can I get a detailed report about how confidential information is handled (not specifics of course, just why I should feel safe about ordering with Smugmug) so I can reassure my buyers?

Thanks
Mike

Sorry for being anal, but I am right at the end of my MSCIS program and I am right now going through a class that discusses these very topics. If Smugmug doesn't have a DR manual or hasn't thought much about DR, maybe you need to hire someone to do that

But I suspect you have.

Nikolai · March 21, 2005

I see...

itchyfeet wrote:

Yeah, appreciate everything you say - very valid points.

Issue is this: I am off on a 7mth round the world trip and will not have access to my own computer. All I will have is my digital camera, SD card and internet cafes to upload pics with.

As my photos will be my most important asset, I want to upload them on a regular basis (i.e. back them up) in case I should lose the SD card/have my camera stolen etc. Also, I want to free up memory on the SD card to take more pics.

DO you think it is OK to rely on Smugmug as a backup in such circumstances?
Cheers!

In this case it seems that ordering periodic SM backups of those pictures is a great idea. Heve them shipped to your home address, so by the time you get home you have a bunch of disks waiting for you. Depending on the amount of uploads you can do weekly CDs, or you can wait until you have a 4-4.5 Gb and then order a dvd..

But, as Andy said, I don't think SM is going anywhere that soon, so these backups are mostly for your total peace of mind..:-)

Have a great trip, I envy you!

Cheers!

onethumb · March 21, 2005

itchyfeet wrote:

Hi

I am very concerned about losing my photos I upload on Smugmug. So, what would happen if Smugmug went bankrupt? Or something similar happened? One of the reasons I use Smugmug is to be a backup facility. Is there any chance we could suddenly lose our pictures, if say Smugmug went bankrupt or suffered data corruption itself? Are the photos on Smugmug backed up?

Thanks
Elliot

I don't want to hide this issue behind marketing-speak and a corporate front, so I'll try to be as transparent and honest as I can:

We use smugmug to store our own photos, which we're very protective of, so we take every precaution we know to ensure they're always safe and sound. Every photo is stored on at minimum two seperate disk storage nodes and those nodes use fault-tolerant RAID arrays with live hot spares. They're far safer than anything mere mortals have at their homes.

But there are certainly scenarios (earthquake, fire, meteor shower, terrorist attack, etc) that're difficult for a company of our size to predict and plan for. Some day, I hope to have better precautions in place for this sort of thing (storing photos in different geographic locations, for example) that just aren't financially feasible right now. If people are willing to pay *a lot* more for such a premium service, I'm all ears.

Additionally, software is software. And humans are human. Smugmug doesn't make any warranties about the saftey and reliability of your photos - we just can't. We simulate failure scenarios ourselves, and we've actually had a few big disaster scenarios happen on the site, and so far we've come through with flying colors. I can't promise that'll always be the case.

But we're not a nameless, faceless corporation. We're a family run business that loves their customers. We consider it an honor to have been entrusted with your photos and are doing everything humanly possible to take good care of them.

Don

onethumb · March 21, 2005

Mike Lane wrote:

Where can I get a detailed report of Smugmug's fault tolerance and disaster recovery procedures? Is there a DR manual? How about security features for the ordering process. Can I get a detailed report about how confidential information is handled (not specifics of course, just why I should feel safe about ordering with Smugmug) so I can reassure my buyers?

Thanks
Mike

Sorry for being anal, but I am right at the end of my MSCIS program and I am right now going through a class that discusses these very topics. If Smugmug doesn't have a DR manual or hasn't thought much about DR, maybe you need to hire someone to do that But I suspect you have.

Sorry, Mike, but I can't give you this information.

Obscurity is a poor substitute for real security, but it's a vital part of any real security plan. If I were a bank, I wouldn't put a poster detailing all of our security camera locations out in the front lobby.

If I reveal specific details about those things, I'm potentially damaging my customer's priceless data.

Don

rutt · March 21, 2005

Storage is very inexpensive these days. Just for example, you can get a 400GB Hitachi drive for about $350. Odds are that all your pictures won't fill this drive or even come close. So it's pretty cheap for you to keep your own backup and use smugmug as another backup. (I do this.) Pretty soon it will take a real doomsday scenario before your images are obliterated (like nobody left but the bugs look at them.)

On the smugmug security topic, how about a Southern Hemisphere backup site? We could just put it in 'Gus's basement. Now let's see, how much bandwidth would we need to make that work? Perhaps my company, Radiance Technologies could help with that part? If I used smilies, I'd put one here for those with improperly adjusted irony detectors.)

wxwax · March 21, 2005

andy wrote:

itchy,

have a great trip. smugmug will be here when you return, and so will your photos. fear not.

Unless that comet hits us. :uhoh

dragon300zx · March 21, 2005

My $0.02. Sounds to me (never having met the man or talked to him other than what I have seen here) that Don knows his stuff. Short of a multi-location computing or making weekly or daily backups to be stored at an offsite (out of the general area) facility that is secure, not much else they can do. I also agree with the obscurity rule. As a hacker all it takes is alittle information to find the way in. The less information that is available the better. I mean you wouldn't give osama a map to your house would you (a metaphore of course)?

flyingpylon · March 21, 2005

Personally, I'd be more concerned about something like this:

Yahoo acquires Flickr

than about disaster, bankruptcy, etc. etc.

fish · March 21, 2005

onethumb wrote:

But we're not a nameless, faceless corporation. We're a family run business that loves their customers. We consider it an honor to have been entrusted with your photos and are doing everything humanly possible to take good care of them.

Don

Smugmug gets a five "fish" rating from me, and I have zero financial interest in the company (yet...come on baldy, hire me, you k-riding bum), just a very VERY satisfied user.

:fish :fish :fish :fish :fish

I'm pretty certain that the MacAskill's wouldn't want me as their official mouthpiece, but as someone who's known Baldy and Toni personally for about five years, and their sons through our relationship (not related to smugmug, btw), and knowing Baldy's history of success in business (ever hear of Fatbrain.com?), and finally as services program manager for a large computer company, I can tell you that Smugmug is here to stay. In their short history, they've already outlasted a couple of their competitors who had a major leg-up in the segment. The operation is a high-quality, high-touch, high-availability, low-cost enterprise that is growth-oriented, customer-focused, and highly scaleable. If they were a public company, I would have no hesitation investing in it. As a customer, I have absolutely ZERO concerns about the protection of my images.

All that said, I think it would be wise to have more than one backup and storage strategy. Just as clustering is good for availability, multiple backup strategies are good for long-term piece of mind. Always keep a copy of the images you can't afford to lose, locally...AND have multiple backup/archive strategies for them too.

how'd I do?

:jose:cheeburga

Mike Lane · March 22, 2005

onethumb wrote:

Sorry, Mike, but I can't give you this information.

Obscurity is a poor substitute for real security, but it's a vital part of any real security plan. If I were a bank, I wouldn't put a poster detailing all of our security camera locations out in the front lobby.

If I reveal specific details about those things, I'm potentially damaging my customer's priceless data.

Don

To be completely honest, if you would have divulged this info (particularly in a live, searchable forum like this) I would have asked for an immediate refund and taken my business elsewhere.

(not even kidding, this is the exact scenario that we talked about last week in my class)

It is good to know certain things and I'm comfortable with the information that you posted earlier. Do you have a link to that information on the smugmug faq or help files anywhere?

Matthew Saville · March 22, 2005

Hah... I had a friend who's webhost got bought and all his images went down the tubes. That ain't happening to smugmug though, I'm pretty sure.

Personally I'd question your choice to use the internet to back up IMAGES... Cause if you shoot any sort of higher-end camera, with RAW capture, RGB colorspace capture, TIFF, etc etc, you're definitely short-changing yourself by only hanging onto a JPG image. I don't know how many times I've had to flat out delete a JPG image and re-upload it, re-edited from RAW, simply because I screwed up on my end. Don't get me wrong, I wholy trust smugmug with my images and I also use them to transport images from my home to my school photo lab sometimes, but I guess I should stop rambling on and just say that as a photographer I can highly reccomend storage using DVD's or CD's. Word on the street is that Fuji's just come out with some super long life CD's?

-matt-

Doomsday Scenario

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