How much to charge for bball shoot?

Shima

So I recently shot two recent high school basketball games for a co-worker of mine (http://shima.smugmug.com/Sports/446804) but I am not sure how much to charge nor he is sure of what to offer, so we decided I'd ask around for recommendations on pricing and then go from there.

Each was a normal game length of about 2 hours of my time... it was a 15 minute drive for the first game a 30 minute drive for the second time (if we considering the fact that I had to drive at all)

The second shoot I wasn't as pleased with since it was a high school sectionals competition and I wasn't allowed to stand behind the sidelines due to not having press credentials (something neither of us realized would be an issue at that game until I got there) so I'm not sure if I should charge the same since I couldn't get as nice pictures the second game... but still had to drive there and do what I could.

These were my first basketball shoots "for hire" and he knows this. I've been shooting lots of college basketball at Valparasio University and the quality I've achieved there lead to his asking me to shoot for his daughter. (http://shima.smugmug.com/Valparaiso_University/398614 is the type of photos I've been getting at the college that he'd seen before asking me to do this).

Based on these various factors what modest price would you all recommend I ask for per game? I'm not looking to get rich, just whatever fair compensation for my time would be considered.

snaptie2002

Well, you have 151 shots in 0ne gallery and 72 in the other.

I have never sold every picture in a gallery but if you charged him your rate of 39 cents per 4x6 for all your photos that would add up to $86.97

But if you don't right click protect your galleries he can get them all for free.


Marty

Scott_Quier

Shima wrote:

So I recently shot two recent high school basketball games for a co-worker of mine (http://shima.smugmug.com/Sports/446804) but I am not sure how much to charge nor he is sure of what to offer, so we decided I'd ask around for recommendations on pricing and then go from there.

Each was a normal game length of about 2 hours of my time... it was a 15 minute drive for the first game a 30 minute drive for the second time (if we considering the fact that I had to drive at all)

The second shoot I wasn't as pleased with since it was a high school sectionals competition and I wasn't allowed to stand behind the sidelines due to not having press credentials (something neither of us realized would be an issue at that game until I got there) so I'm not sure if I should charge the same since I couldn't get as nice pictures the second game... but still had to drive there and do what I could.

These were my first basketball shoots "for hire" and he knows this. I've been shooting lots of college basketball at Valparasio University and the quality I've achieved there lead to his asking me to shoot for his daughter. (http://shima.smugmug.com/Valparaiso_University/398614 is the type of photos I've been getting at the college that he'd seen before asking me to do this).

Based on these various factors what modest price would you all recommend I ask for per game? I'm not looking to get rich, just whatever fair compensation for my time would be considered.

The 15 or 30 minutes drive time to the event is trivial, especially in the mid-west and western states (I used to live in MT , so I have some experience with this - drive 130 miles to go mall shopping). So, I think I would not include that in the computation here though for longer drives it might be appropriate especially with the current price of energy.

For the time on site - what do you figure your time is worth? How much time did you spend post processing? Though you are "just starting out" I would still consider your time to be worth at least $20 or $30 per shooting hour (it's kinda difficult to charge seperately for the PP time as that's kinda hidden from the client). That price should go up significantly as you get better and start returning a much higher percentage of dramatic shots. There's also the need to recover the cost (if any) of any press credentials you may need to acquire to gain access to the floor.

A couple of thoughts about your site:

• Is your site a power/pro subscription site? If not, maybe it should be
• If you are going to be charging, you probably need to do what you can to protect your images:
  • Protect against right-clicking
  • Disable display of the larger images - you have originals available
  • Increase the prices of your prints
• I looked at 4 or 5 of your BBall gallaries. I would think you need to better screen the photos you post. There are just too many shots there that are OOF or focused on something other than the subject. This can bias a viewer's impression of the quality of your work.

Shima

I'm not looking for a per photo charge, as the agreement is he gets what I take on cd after the shoot... as such, no right click protection on them since he has the cd anyway.

snaptie2002 wrote:

Well, you have 151 shots in 0ne gallery and 72 in the other.

I have never sold every picture in a gallery but if you charged him your rate of 39 cents per 4x6 for all your photos that would add up to $86.97

But if you don't right click protect your galleries he can get them all for free.


Marty

Shima

I have a pro account.

What price should my prints be at? I have them higher than base... but I guess not high enough?

Also, I often have people interested in purchasing the digital files, are those prices too low too do you think?

As stated about, I didn't see the need for these galleries in specific to be right click protected since he gets the CD from me, that was the agreement, I show up and shoot then give him the cd later. (he's a great co-worker by the way, so I have no worries of really getting ripped off or anything as he's high up in rank at the university police department, lol... I work in IT...so we're co-workers by the University, not department)

I've been thinking though of right-click protecting and such my valpo shots though as I have a ton of students that do look at them after games.

What size would you cut it down to? Just XL3? Or only XL for max size?

Thanks for your recommendation about per hours, as that's what I was looking for roughly- a per hour sort of charge.

Also thanks for the feedback on the regular b-ball galleries, I thought I'd been better screening some of the recent galleries, but obviously I need to get *even* better at that, heh. I'll work on being more critical of my stuff... and some shots I post up there are merely for humor factor, but I gather those aren't what we're talking about.

Scott_Quier wrote:

The 15 or 30 minutes drive time to the event is trivial, especially in the mid-west and western states (I used to live in MT , so I have some experience with this - drive 130 miles to go mall shopping). So, I think I would not include that in the computation here though for longer drives it might be appropriate especially with the current price of energy.

For the time on site - what do you figure your time is worth? How much time did you spend post processing? Though you are "just starting out" I would still consider your time to be worth at least $20 or $30 per shooting hour (it's kinda difficult to charge seperately for the PP time as that's kinda hidden from the client). That price should go up significantly as you get better and start returning a much higher percentage of dramatic shots. There's also the need to recover the cost (if any) of any press credentials you may need to acquire to gain access to the floor.

A couple of thoughts about your site:

• Is your site a power/pro subscription site? If not, maybe it should be
• If you are going to be charging, you probably need to do what you can to protect your images:
  • Protect against right-clicking
  • Disable display of the larger images - you have originals available
  • Increase the prices of your prints
• I looked at 4 or 5 of your BBall gallaries. I would think you need to better screen the photos you post. There are just too many shots there that are OOF or focused on something other than the subject. This can bias a viewer's impression of the quality of your work.

Sam

You should charge him exactly what you quoted, and he agreed to prior to the shoot.

Sam

Scott_Quier

Shima wrote:

I have a pro account.

I thought so, but wasn't sure.

Shima wrote:

What price should my prints be at? I have them higher than base... but I guess not high enough?

You know what they cost you. Because pricing can often be a regional thing, take a look at the sites of other photographers in your area as a starting point. Those that have been in business a while may have a better idea of the "going rate" for prints. Anyway, look at their prices and figure out how you feel about them. Are they too high? Are they too low?

Shima wrote:

Also, I often have people interested in purchasing the digital files, are those prices too low too do you think?

I don't sell the digital files. When you sell the digital file, you loose the opportunity to sell prints of that photo (called opportunity cost). What, realistically, are those potential sales worth to you?

Shima wrote:

As stated about, I didn't see the need for these galleries in specific to be right click protected since he gets the CD from me, that was the agreement, I show up and shoot then give him the cd later. (he's a great co-worker by the way, so I have no worries of really getting ripped off or anything as he's high up in rank at the university police department, lol... I work in IT...so we're co-workers by the University, not department)

Yes, but you have pictures there of other players. Some of them may not live to the same high standard of integrity of your friend. When they grab a picture from your site, you loose the associated sales.

Shima wrote:

I've been thinking though of right-click protecting and such my valpo shots though as I have a ton of students that do look at them after games.

I'm not sure you can set the right-click for just some gallaries and not others. I have it on all mine, as it's so much easier.

Shima wrote:

What size would you cut it down to? Just XL3? Or only XL for max size?

Again, that's your call, but it's quite easy for someone to get a very good print (4x6) from even the XL size, but there's only so much you can do. No matter what you do, you're still likely to get ripped off a bit. You can watermark them, right click protect them, limit the size to small or medium and you'll still get those that will do a screen grab and use the result on their myspace page.

Shima wrote:

Thanks for your recommendation about per hours, as that's what I was looking for roughly- a per hour sort of charge.

Also thanks for the feedback on the regular b-ball galleries, I thought I'd been better screening some of the recent galleries, but obviously I need to get *even* better at that, heh. I'll work on being more critical of my stuff... and some shots I post up there are merely for humor factor, but I gather those aren't what we're talking about.

I'm not sure which photos in the High School gallaries might be there for the humor, except for the first one in your "Morgan Township HS vs Kouts HS" gallary (the donkey in the mug or whatever that is - it's too OOF to be sure ).

Scott_Quier

Sam wrote:

You should charge him exactly what you quoted, and he agreed to prior to the shoot.

Sam

- if there was any sort of agreement before the shoot. If I read the OP correctly, there was no such agreement and now the two of them are trying to arrive at a mutually agreeable number.

Shima

Yes, you can right click based on a gallery by gallery thing. I do it for weddings already.

As for the humor shots, those are more in the college bball.. not so much the morgan games I photographed (with the exception w/ the "cup" thing that the winning team received... I was unfortunately way too far away to get a good shot of it...)

Thanks for all the feedback here.

-Cat

Scott_Quier wrote:

I thought so, but wasn't sure.You know what they cost you. Because pricing can often be a regional thing, take a look at the sites of other photographers in your area as a starting point. Those that have been in business a while may have a better idea of the "going rate" for prints. Anyway, look at their prices and figure out how you feel about them. Are they too high? Are they too low? I don't sell the digital files. When you sell the digital file, you loose the opportunity to sell prints of that photo (called opportunity cost). What, realistically, are those potential sales worth to you?Yes, but you have pictures there of other players. Some of them may not live to the same high standard of integrity of your friend. When they grab a picture from your site, you loose the associated sales.I'm not sure you can set the right-click for just some gallaries and not others. I have it on all mine, as it's so much easier.Again, that's your call, but it's quite easy for someone to get a very good print (4x6) from even the XL size, but there's only so much you can do. No matter what you do, you're still likely to get ripped off a bit. You can watermark them, right click protect them, limit the size to small or medium and you'll still get those that will do a screen grab and use the result on their myspace page.
I'm not sure which photos in the High School gallaries might be there for the humor, except for the first one in your "Morgan Township HS vs Kouts HS" gallary (the donkey in the mug or whatever that is - it's too OOF to be sure ).

Shima

Scott_Quier wrote:

- if there was any sort of agreement before the shoot. If I read the OP correctly, there was no such agreement and now the two of them are trying to arrive at a mutually agreeable number.

Yeah, I have no idea why he said that, as if I had an agreement I'd have no reason to post asking what to charge, lol.

It was a first opportunity to shoot b-ball for pay and he's a co-worker / friend, so I am ok w/ the fact that we didn't have a pre-set agreement, really I am

urbanaries

I think Sam has a valid point between the lines. Never, ever shoot before having some sort of agreement up front. It doesn't have to be formal or in writing, but basic expectations of "If you do X I will do Y" should be established before one does any work.

One may think this isn't necessary in friend/family situations, but I've found that these are the exact situations where it is necessary, in order for the person working not to be taken advantage of. It's human nature for the recipient to think its cool of you to devote your time, but not so cool for you to charge them market value for it.

Sam

urbanaries wrote:

I think Sam has a valid point between the lines. Never, ever shoot before having some sort of agreement up front. It doesn't have to be formal or in writing, but basic expectations of "If you do X I will do Y" should be established before one does any work.

One may think this isn't necessary in friend/family situations, but I've found that these are the exact situations where it is necessary, in order for the person working not to be taken advantage of. It's human nature for the recipient to think its cool of you to devote your time, but not so cool for you to charge them market value for it.

BINGO!!!

Sam

Shima

urbanaries wrote:

I think Sam has a valid point between the lines. Never, ever shoot before having some sort of agreement up front. It doesn't have to be formal or in writing, but basic expectations of "If you do X I will do Y" should be established before one does any work.

One may think this isn't necessary in friend/family situations, but I've found that these are the exact situations where it is necessary, in order for the person working not to be taken advantage of. It's human nature for the recipient to think its cool of you to devote your time, but not so cool for you to charge them market value for it.

The only thing we discussed before hand was that I would be compensated at whatever the fair rate was, which he has pretty much left to my discretion, but again neither of us knew what to expect for pricing. :: shrugs :: I can see your point but in this case I think it was a judgment call.

Anyhoo, any further recommendations to what I should ask for payment wise in addition to what has already been said?

urbanaries

Shima wrote:

Anyhoo, any further recommendations to what I should ask for payment wise in addition to what has already been said?

There are two ways photographers collect revenue: shooting time/session fees, and print sales. If you are giving up print sales via CD, you need to incorporate that into your session fee, and vice versa.

Personally, I charge $125 for an on location event or session for up to two hours, and $275 for all the high res files.

We are in the same geographic area, so you could use my numbers as justification for "market value." My prices are about in the middle of the pack for portraits, although I am not sure about sports photographers. In your case I could argue that most sports photographers are selling to the entire team, and you were commissioned to shoot one player, so the portrait fee structure would be valid.

My point is that you would be totally justified in charging this person $400 per game, because that is fair value. But to spring this number on them after you've already done the work, now this person may balk at that cost, and feel like you are trying to swindle them. They probably have a much lower number in mind, but never disclosed it.

Its a totally fair question to ask, "what are you hoping to spend on this service?"

Hope this helps!

Shima

Thanks for the feedback, I'm looking for a shooting fee, not a print sales fee... if anyone orders prints later that's an added bonus.

Wow, your prices seem really high to me as a newbie, but good to know when I get much better that I can look forward to that...

Right now I'm really learning towards Scott's 20-30 per shooting hour as a newb since he is expecting "entry level" pricing and I'm not really expecting oodles of money like your sweet pricing below.

As an aside: Photography is my on the side hobby... I'm a Network Admin at VU full time, so I can eat without my photogs selling, lol... however I use my photography money to fuel my upgraded equipment, that's the deal the hubby and I have worked out, I can buy whatever camera equipment I want as long as I've already collected the money from photo jobs... so making money there is also key just for a different reason!!

Thanks again, once I get more established I may very well use your pricing in the future.

urbanaries wrote:

There are two ways photographers collect revenue: shooting time/session fees, and print sales. If you are giving up print sales via CD, you need to incorporate that into your session fee, and vice versa.

Personally, I charge $125 for an on location event or session for up to two hours, and $275 for all the high res files.

We are in the same geographic area, so you could use my numbers as justification for "market value." My prices are about in the middle of the pack for portraits, although I am not sure about sports photographers. In your case I could argue that most sports photographers are selling to the entire team, and you were commissioned to shoot one player, so the portrait fee structure would be valid.

My point is that you would be totally justified in charging this person $400 per game, because that is fair value. But to spring this number on them after you've already done the work, now this person may balk at that cost, and feel like you are trying to swindle them. They probably have a much lower number in mind, but never disclosed it.

Its a totally fair question to ask, "what are you hoping to spend on this service?"

Hope this helps!

Shima

urbanaries wrote:

Its a totally fair question to ask, "what are you hoping to spend on this service?"

Oh and been there done that, but he's totally open for suggestion, we're both rather indecisive people and I think he's afraid of offering too low and I'm afraid of offering too high since we've never done this sort of exchange before, lol. But like I said, he's a very reliable man, so I know once we do agree on a price that he'll be good for it.

He also mentioned that some photog shot their hs b-ball last year and was selling cd's from that to parents for some amount per cd... and is going to look into that to additionally help us see what "fair values" are out there in comparison (and he knows I posted on here asking what to charge as well).

urbanaries

Shima wrote:

Thanks for the feedback, I'm looking for a shooting fee, not a print sales fee... if anyone orders prints later that's an added bonus.

Wow, your prices seem really high to me as a newbie, but good to know when I get much better that I can look forward to that...

Right now I'm really learning towards Scott's 20-30 per shooting hour as a newb since he is expecting "entry level" pricing and I'm not really expecting oodles of money like your sweet pricing below.

As an aside: Photography is my on the side hobby... I'm a Network Admin at VU full time, so I can eat without my photogs selling, lol... however I use my photography money to fuel my upgraded equipment, that's the deal the hubby and I have worked out, I can buy whatever camera equipment I want as long as I've already collected the money from photo jobs... so making money there is also key just for a different reason!!

Thanks again, once I get more established I may very well use your pricing in the future.

I agree 20-30 per shooting hour sounds reasonable for someone just starting out, but make sure you place a value on those image files, not just your time.

(as an aside, you might try the 50mm 1.8, or 85mm 1.8, you will get a lot better exposures/shutter speeds in those dark gyms for the $ than the 70-200 2.8.)

Shima

urbanaries wrote:

I agree 20-30 per shooting hour sounds reasonable for someone just starting out, but make sure you place a value on those image files, not just your time.

(as an aside, you might try the 50mm 1.8, or 85mm 1.8, you will get a lot better exposures/shutter speeds in those dark gyms for the $ than the 70-200 2.8.)

Yeah that gym was ghastly dark... I really like my 70-200 f2.8 for when I'm shooting at VU though as it gets much better exposure / shutter speeds in that lighting...

I would sell this lens, but it's also useful to me when I do weddings (and I just got it used from another dgrinner in December so it's still "new" to me)

My personal next "thing" to buy is a second body... I want a 40D real bad... after I can afford that I'll start expanding lenses again

snaptie2002

Shima wrote:

Yeah, I have no idea why he said that, as if I had an agreement I'd have no reason to post asking what to charge, lol. quote]

I think that is sarcasm

But it makes a good point.

My point was you are now in a position of being limited by the total value you have placed on you gallery. If you charge more he will wonder why.

You had the option of shooting other players and posting another gallery at the same time. His child couldn't have the ball all the time.

Any way it is good that he is a good aquaintance. I am sure you can work it out.

Oh....a bunch of your galleris are not protected. I would hate to see you lose sales.

Marty

Shima

snaptie2002 wrote:

My point was you are now in a position of being limited by the total value you have placed on you gallery. If you charge more he will wonder why.

Oh....a bunch of your galleris are not protected. I would hate to see you lose sales.

I am only limited based on what we both agree upon by conferring with others as to what a reasonable price is... he knows my print prices are arbitrary.

And I know, the vast majority of my galleries are not protected. I don't do this for a living, mostly I shoot for fun (such as the VU sporting events) but every now and then, like this, someone asks me to shoot something for pay. Sure I'd love to expand to more pay less "only for fun" but it's not my main goal in life. I get great enjoyment out of people just telling me that they saw my photos and enjoyed them.

::shrugs:: sometimes the best things in life are free (compliments) guess I'm a sucker for a pat on the back.

Thanks for the concern though