manual vs. aperture priority and metering

Elaine

Having have my 40D for two months now, and mostly using Av mode, I've been forcing myself to use manual so I can get more comfortable with my new equipment and really know it well. I know many photogs prefer to use manual anyway, and I think I can understand why.

My question is...say I'm shooting some outdoor portraits in Av mode. I have my camera set to evaluative metering and to meter with the selected focus point. If I always focus on the face (and thus meter from the face), there shouldn't be any difference between Av mode used that way and manual mode metered from the face, right? From shot to shot, it seems that the exposures would remain consistent between those two methods.

If the most important thing to me is properly exposed skin tones, should I be using the spot meter with manual mode, rather than evaluative with either manual or Av mode? Or what about center-weighted...if I meter with the center of the frame in manual on the face, then pick my focus point...well, that brings me back to my original question...what's the difference between doing that and just metering with your focus point in Av mode on the face? (This is for most portraits...I understand there are times when you want to meter somewhere separate from your focus point. I guess you could choose to use AE lock or manual at that point.)

I'm trying to figure out the most efficient way of shooting to achieve the most consistent results and the easiest post workflow. I've heard the praises of manual and also heard that when done right, Av mode can achieve the same thing. But if the light is changing or if I change position and therefore the light on my subject has changed, then I can't really count on my previous manual setting, can I? So, it seems like Av mode could be beneficial here. Anyway...I hope this isn't too muddy!

Thoughts, links, tips? Thanks!

Scott_Quier

Reflective metering is fraught with all sorts of issues and this is what we use when we depend/use the meter in the camera. If you spot meter for the face, you will, most likely, get a decent or good exposure of the face and the rest will usually fall into place. When shooting manual mode, I'm guessing you choose the aperture you want and adjust the shutter speed to get the exposure meter to rest where you want it. If that is, indeed, your method then, as you surmise, this is not much different than what the camera is doing for you.

I take it one step further. After a test shot, I look at the histogram. Did I blow a channel? Have I got it exposed to the right (my objective)? Make adjustments as appropriate and go from there.

Another way to meter is to use an incident light meter. This will tell you how much light is falling on your subject, not how much is reflecting from your subject. If you have the time and are shooting ambient, this is, maybe, the best way to go.

But, shooting manual is the way to go - you really have so much more control over the exposure that way.

jeffreaux2

I think Scott has given you some good answers.

Lacking some of the tools mentioned....such as spot metering and a handheld meter I have my own method to the madness.

Since I shoot mainly outdoor portraits, I am usually in AV Mode. Why?

I am very comfortable in that mode. I like the way ETTL and Canon handle fill flash in that mode. It is very predictable for me. I do watch the histogram as Scott said....and I use exposure compensation to make adjustments as needed. I generally adjust FEC by sight....or chimping. Too much flash is as bad as too little.

Indoors I often shoot manual. I establish some sort of baseline for what I need to get my skintones and not blow my whites. Then I can decide what shutter speeds I can get away with according to the DOF that I need. A wedding for instance can be shot at fairly low shutter speeds as compared with a dance competition. Either way, after my baseline test shots I really have no more use for the meter at all unless I move to a different location/ lighting.

I have also found another usefull mode. ( I am going to get picked on here) Program mode can be very usefull for indoor photos with flash. Here all you really control is ISO and flash exposure compensation. Simple, but again Canon along with its ETTL flash system can produce good results with little effort. I am not sure if you have seen the gallery of photos taken at the reception following my grandmothers funeral, but I can get a link to you if you are interested. All of the indoor shots were taken in program mode at a time when I really didn't want to be bothered with thinking about anything other than snapping the shutter. Here is a sample of a program mode flash photo.


BTW I flip flop between center weighted and evaluative and have found little difference personally.

pathfinder

Shooting outdoors in sunlight - unless a cloud covers the sun - the exposure really does not vary significantly. You can verify this with an incident exposure meter. That is why Sunny 16 works so well in sunlight.

BUT.... if someone turns their face so it is shadowed, they will then be under exposed. Shooting birds has taught me to pay close attention to facial angles - - just 10 or 15 degrees of facial rotation is sometimes enough to throw the face out of the sunlight and into the shade - a 2 - 3 stop decrease in lighting. What was a great shot just turned out poorly because the facial detail just disappeared into the shadows. And even Evaluative metering is not going to remedy this unless you are shooting a real facial closeup that fills the frame.

That is why some folks prefer Av. I must admit that I am not always consistent myself, and frequently use Av with clouds in the sky that are moving and altering the light real time. I am certain that if the lighting is consistent, eg: sunlight, that Manual mode will give greater consistency of exposures from frame to frame. Av causes more variation from frame to frame in exposure - this is good or bad depending on what is happening with the lighting.

You can use flash outdoors in sunlight or shade in either Manual mode or Av mode. Manual mode with an EOS flash in ETTL will allow more control over the exposure of the background than Av.

If you wish to meter off the face, I would suggest using Spot metering and adding 2/3 to 1 stop + EC for lighter complexions, and then shoot that in Manual mode. The problem is faces will very from +1 stop EC to -1 stop EC and you will need to keep this in mind as you work. That is why the gray card is still popular - meter off the gray card and no EC should be dead on. When I meter off a gray card in sunlight, the reading closely matches Sunny 16.

Your histogram is your most reliable exposure indicator in the field. Set it up so that you can see all three color channels separately. The 40D does a nice three color, red, green, blue, histogram for this purpose. Mine is set up that way at all times.

rwells

Elaine,

You've been given some VERY GOOD advise so far.


Don't get wrapped up in only this way or that. Get familiar with all the modes/methods. Certain ones will be preferred by you for a given situation, another for different conditions. No ONE WAY is best for every situation...


I use the modes that help me handle the given situation the best/easiest. Just learn the advantages/disadvantages to each shooting mode and then use whichever one suits your needs at the time.



Hope that helps...

Elaine

Scott_Quier wrote:

Reflective metering is fraught with all sorts of issues and this is what we use when we depend/use the meter in the camera. If you spot meter for the face, you will, most likely, get a decent or good exposure of the face and the rest will usually fall into place.
...
But, shooting manual is the way to go - you really have so much more control over the exposure that way.

Thanks, Scott! Yes, I set the aperture and then scroll the speed around to where I want it for a manual exposure. Then I check my histogram, adjust if needed and try again. (I love that my camera's playback screen can be left at the histogram view for fast chimping!) I worry that I will miss fast moments with kids by doing this. I know I can get set up before the "action" starts, but what about changing light and following kids around a setting where the light situation doesn't stay constant?

I spent some time with my camera and manual again over the weekend and discovered a custom setting that allowed me to reverse the direction my dial scrolled for setting aperture/SS. That was an awesome discovery for me! Now my finger can follow my instincts and scroll the correct way the first time, so I feel like I'm getting faster at this process.

Not trying to beat a dead horse here, but if you're using Av mode with +/- EC, how is that not having as much control over exposure as shooting manual? Also, is manual better for consistent post process work somehow?

I'm really trying to fully understand all of this, and I really appreciate your time and experience!

Elaine

jeffreaux2 wrote:

I think Scott has given you some good answers.
...
BTW I flip flop between center weighted and evaluative and have found little difference personally.

Thanks for the sample pic, Jeff! It's a nice looking flash pic!

Interesting to hear that you may use manual indoors and Av outdoors. I can see how this could prove practical. I need to get lots more practice with my flash...perhaps that will adjust how I decide to shoot in the future. Thanks for your viewpoint on this!

Elaine

pathfinder wrote:

Shooting outdoors in sunlight - unless a cloud covers the sun - the exposure really does not vary significantly. You can verify this with an incident exposure meter. That is why Sunny 16 works so well in sunlight.
...
Your histogram is your most reliable exposure indicator in the field. Set it up so that you can see all three color channels separately. The 40D does a nice three color, red, green, blue, histogram for this purpose. Mine is set up that way at all times.

Thank you very much for this post! This was very helpful for the types of situations I'm envisioning. I recently got one of those fold-up white/grey cards, so now I just need to remember to give it a try. And I think I'll laminate the Sunny 16 rule and keep it in my bag for reference! I've really been thankful for the histogram screens on the 40D; I'm getting better at using them. Thanks again!

Elaine

rwells wrote:

Elaine,

You've been given some VERY GOOD advise so far.
Don't get wrapped up in only this way or that.
...
Hope that helps...

This was a great reminder to me that it's only to my advantage to know all the modes/methods really well on my camera. I can see now that I don't need to choose one method and never venture from it. All the time I've been spending practicing shooting manually will not go to waste, even if I choose Av mode now and then. Thanks!

Scott_Quier

Elaine wrote:

Not trying to beat a dead horse here, but if you're using Av mode with +/- EC, how is that not having as much control over exposure as shooting manual? Also, is manual better for consistent post process work somehow?

There isn't any real difference. Contra-wise, the manual process is "closer" to the basics. As a matter of personal preference, I like to keep as few things between me and my final product as possible.

When shooting under changing light conditions, adjusting exposure settings via exposure compensation or via directly changing shutter speed and/or aperture - mechanically they are the same.

So, it really amounts to dealer's choice.

Elaine

Scott_Quier wrote:

There isn't any real difference. Contra-wise, the manual process is "closer" to the basics. As a matter of personal preference, I like to keep as few things between me and my final product as possible.

When shooting under changing light conditions, adjusting exposure settings via exposure compensation or via directly changing shutter speed and/or aperture - mechanically they are the same.

So, it really amounts to dealer's choice.

Got it. Thanks!

SitterS

Elaine so glad you brought this up as I am also trying to use manual more instead of AV. Inside using natural light I do use manual more as my light seems to be more consistent. Outside is another story. I don't seem to be as sucessful using manual in an outdoor environment. With sports I use AV as it is just easier for me.

I am purchasing a Sekonic light meter next week which I hopes with shooting manual. Also I bought a whibal G6 pocket card to use when setting WB in RAW. I know you can adjust it but I am hoping using it will help speed up processing time for me.

Shane

Elaine

SitterS wrote:

Elaine so glad you brought this up as I am also trying to use manual more instead of AV. Inside using natural light I do use manual more as my light seems to be more consistent. Outside is another story. I don't seem to be as sucessful using manual in an outdoor environment. With sports I use AV as it is just easier for me.

I am purchasing a Sekonic light meter next week which I hopes with shooting manual. Also I bought a whibal G6 pocket card to use when setting WB in RAW. I know you can adjust it but I am hoping using it will help speed up processing time for me.

Shane

Glad to hear I'm not alone! I'd be interested to hear what you think of your light meter when you get it. Consistency and efficient post production is what I'm seeking right now, so it's great to learn and hear about tools that can help to that end.

SitterS

Elaine wrote:

Glad to hear I'm not alone! I'd be interested to hear what you think of your light meter when you get it. Consistency and efficient post production is what I'm seeking right now, so it's great to learn and hear about tools that can help to that end.

I'll let you know. Consistency and efficiency is what I am working towards as well.

Shane

Scott_Quier

Elaine wrote:

I spent some time with my camera and manual again over the weekend and discovered a custom setting that allowed me to reverse the direction my dial scrolled for setting aperture/SS. That was an awesome discovery for me! Now my finger can follow my instincts and scroll the correct way the first time, so I feel like I'm getting faster at this process.

I re-read your post and found this little tidbit - which CF was it that you adjusted? You answering the question will save me having to search it out for myself.

Thanks

Elaine

Scott_Quier wrote:

I re-read your post and found this little tidbit - which CF was it that you adjusted? You answering the question will save me having to search it out for myself.

Thanks

Custom Function IV-4

I've also switched the AF-ON/AE lock button on Custom Function IV-2.

LiquidAir

Elaine wrote:

Not trying to beat a dead horse here, but if you're using Av mode with +/- EC, how is that not having as much control over exposure as shooting manual? Also, is manual better for consistent post process work somehow?

I'm really trying to fully understand all of this, and I really appreciate your time and experience!

The difference between Manual and Exposure Compensation is that in manual mode you are adjusting for the light and with Av/EC you are adjusting for the subject. So if the light is relatively contant, but your subject is changing Manual mode will work better. On the other hand, if your subject stays the same but the light is changing you are better of in aperture priority mode.

Here are a couple of examples:

Lets say you are shooting a person wearing a white jersey across a grass field which is partially shaded on a sunny day. If you shoot in manual mode you will have to adjust by about three stops every time your subject moves between the sun and the shade. However, if you shoot in Av mode you can typically set one EC value for your subject and not have to adjust for the change in in lighting.

However, if you are shooting a wedding in an evenly lit church, in manual mode you can set for the light and pretty much let it ride with ony minor adjustments. However, if you shoot in Av mode you'll need to be resetting the EC everytime you switch between the bride in white and the groom in black.

If you are only going to be taking one picture, it doesn't matter which mode you use. However, if you are planning on taking a series of pictures you want to pick the mode which requires the least fiddling with the camera. Whenever I start shooting in a new environment, the first thing I do is assess both my likely subjects and the light to come up with an exposure strategy. Av, Tv or Manual? What ISO? Flash or no Flash? Then when I process the shoot I try to figure out what went wrong with the shots which were poorly exposed or poorly lit so I can do better the next time.

Scott_Quier

LiquidAir wrote:

Lets say you are shooting a person wearing a white jersey across a grass field which is partially shaded on a sunny day. If you shoot in manual mode you will have to adjust by about three stops every time your subject moves between the sun and the shade. However, if you shoot in Av mode you can typically set one EC value for your subject and not have to adjust for the change in in lighting.

This is good! I hadn't ever thought of it in quite this fashion. Thanks!

ChuckM

LiquidAir wrote:

The difference between Manual and Exposure Compensation is that in manual mode you are adjusting for the light and with Av/EC you are adjusting for the subject. So if the light is relatively contant, but your subject is changing Manual mode will work better. On the other hand, if your subject stays the same but the light is changing you are better of in aperture priority mode.

Here are a couple of examples:

Lets say you are shooting a person wearing a white jersey across a grass field which is partially shaded on a sunny day. If you shoot in manual mode you will have to adjust by about three stops every time your subject moves between the sun and the shade. However, if you shoot in Av mode you can typically set one EC value for your subject and not have to adjust for the change in in lighting.

However, if you are shooting a wedding in an evenly lit church, in manual mode you can set for the light and pretty much let it ride with ony minor adjustments. However, if you shoot in Av mode you'll need to be resetting the EC everytime you switch between the bride in white and the groom in black.

If you are only going to be taking one picture, it doesn't matter which mode you use. However, if you are planning on taking a series of pictures you want to pick the mode which requires the least fiddling with the camera. Whenever I start shooting in a new environment, the first thing I do is assess both my likely subjects and the light to come up with an exposure strategy. Av, Tv or Manual? What ISO? Flash or no Flash? Then when I process the shoot I try to figure out what went wrong with the shots which were poorly exposed or poorly lit so I can do better the next time.

That post was a major "ah ha!" moment for me.

Thank you very much.

jeffreaux2

Scott_Quier wrote:

This is good! I hadn't ever thought of it in quite this fashion. Thanks!

I agree ,

The who reply was very well stated.....and in my kind of terms!!!