Photo printing at home - what are the options?

boulderNardo

Allright so as I'm getting more seriously into photography (mostly sports photography lately, skiing actions shots & panoramas) and as I go out on photoshoots more often with great skiers, I more and more have the wish to be able to create printouts at home for my own use and to hand them out to friends & subjects...

I've been doing some research on photo printers lately, and the more research I do, the more options I see and the more I'm confused

What I'm interested in:
1) Absolutely great print quality, close or equal to lab quality.
2) At-home printouts, no labs involved, for faster 'turnaround' times and more control over the process.
3) 8x10, even up to 13x19 printouts
4) Prices somewhat comparable to photo labs (hopefully cheaper for the bigger printouts) on a per-print basis.

I am willing to spend anywhere from $500 to $1500 to get started. I've been looking at a variety of inkjet and dye-sub printers, trying to compare cost-per-printout, but it's still a hard choice. Here's what I have in mind so far (in no particular order):

1) Canon Pixma pro9000, inkjet, 13x19" max., ~$450 ($??/13x19print)
2) Kodak Professional 8500, 8x10 only, ~$250 ($2/8x10print)
3) HP Photosmart 8750, 13x19" max, ~$450 ($??/13x19print)
4) Canon Prograf iPF5000, $1300 on eBay
5) Epson Stylus Pro 3800, 17x22" max, $1100 ($??/printout)
6) Epson Stylus Photo R2400

What else is there out there? I'm definitely interested in dye-subs, but wondering about the differences in cost-per-page compared to inkjets. How much can i expect a 8x10 or 13x19 printout from the Pixma pro9000 to cost, as compared to $2 for an 8x10 from the Kodak dye-sub?

Lots of questions, lots of confusion. Any input, facts, links, reviews, and ideas very welcome!
-bernardo

Tee Why

If your maximum print size is 13x19, then I'd recommend considering the Epson Stylus Photo 1400. http://www.epson.com/cgi-bin/Store/consumer/consDetail.jsp?BV_UseBVCookie=yes&oid=63066043
It's $300 has a high quality (at least in my view) sub dye systme good for up to 98 years under glass (according to an interview with the tech editor at PopPhoto, lab prints are estimated to last about 30 years). This will probably represent the best value in printers as long as your max size is 13x19.

I don't know how much it would be for a print but I suspect it's similar to a ink based system, both of which will be a lot more expensive than sending it to a lab.

Some advise from my own experience. Calibrate your monitor first, I can't emphasize this enough. Huey Pantone is relatively inexpensive and simple to use. Also use the makers paper and ink cartridges (unless you have the profile for your printer to handle the third party makers paper).

Good luck.

Poseidon

From experience....

buy the Epson 3800! I bought the R1800 about a year ago, and I decided to keep all my empty ink carts to see how many I would use, and what colors I used the most of. Well I think it was a good plan, I learned that I have paid MORE for my $400 R1800 then the $1200 3800. The ink carts for the R1800 are approximately 10mL each, the 3800 is 70mL I think. Anyway, I have NOT used 7 of any one color, but I have 3-5 of each, and at $14.95 per color and 8 colors.... You get the idea.

In all honesty using the lab is cheaper, and way less time consuming. Using a home ink jet is convenient, and COOL, but not as cost effective when time is factored in.

Monitor calibration is a MUST, and even then certain tweaking is needed to get the print to match the screen, sort of, much less EXACTLY.)

boulderNardo

Thanks a bunch for the advice guys!

Tee Why, the E1400 sounds very interesting, and I could limit myself to 13x19 for such a good price - I wonder about ink price though.
Also, I'm not quite sure I understand whether it's a 'traditional' inkjet printer or a dye-sub printer... The website mentions "Convenient, individual ink cartridges"??

Poseidon, you say you have the Epson 3800 - do you have an idea, approximately, how much 13x19 and 17x22 printouts cost, per page, considering ink & paper, but neglecting cost of the printer?

I want to try to compare against the going rate of ~$10 for 12x18 / 13x19 prints at online labs. If say a 13x19 on the E3800 ends up costing $4-$5 bucks after ink & paper, I would definitely go with the E3800.

I would absolutely like the comfort and speed of a 'home lab', not having to upload photos and wait 2-3 days for printouts. If the only purpose is to print them for my own use, I obviously want to keep price-per-print as low as possible. If I eventually start selling my own prints, I can afford more expensive solutions.

-bernardo

BPerron

boulderNardo wrote:

Thanks a bunch for the advice guys!

Tee Why, the E1400 sounds very interesting, and I could limit myself to 13x19 for such a good price - I wonder about ink price though.
Also, I'm not quite sure I understand whether it's a 'traditional' inkjet printer or a dye-sub printer... The website mentions "Convenient, individual ink cartridges"??

Poseidon, you say you have the Epson 3800 - do you have an idea, approximately, how much 13x19 and 17x22 printouts cost, per page, considering ink & paper, but neglecting cost of the printer?

I want to try to compare against the going rate of ~$10 for 12x18 / 13x19 prints at online labs. If say a 13x19 on the E3800 ends up costing $4-$5 bucks after ink & paper, I would definitely go with the E3800.

I would absolutely like the comfort and speed of a 'home lab', not having to upload photos and wait 2-3 days for printouts. If the only purpose is to print them for my own use, I obviously want to keep price-per-print as low as possible. If I eventually start selling my own prints, I can afford more expensive solutions.

-bernardo

The canon pixma 9000 is getting rave reviews right now...

Tee Why

I believe that recently, Epson has moved to a dye based system, including the 1400 b/c they last longer.

You may want to check out various articles in PopPhoto.com to get more of a primer on printers/cost/steps needed.

If price is a concern, printing from the lab may be much cheaper. I think just the paper alone for printing at home is more expensive than a comparable print from a lab.

I print at home b/c I like the immediate feedback and gratification along with more control and higher quality. Since I'm not making massive no. of prints, I don't mind the higher cost.

Poseidon

I have the R1800, I wish I would have bought the 3800. As for cost per print, I never really figured it out down to that detail. What my goal was in saving the ink, was to compare the cost of the ink for the less expensive printer, to the total cost of the more expensive printer with larger ink cartridges. I found that in the course of the year, printing for myself (and wife's scrapbooking stuff), I should have bough the larger printer. Saying that much, may or may not apply for you. On average I would say we print 2-3 photo prints a day, anywhere from wallet size, to 12x12 scrapbook pages. So I guess I use more ink then the "average" consumer, but as far as a photographer, I would say I used an "average" amount of ink.

Almost all my Wedding images, and sports images come from the lab though, except the occasional "oh CRAP" I forgot to order this one....

Pupator

If you're set on printing at home - go for it! But I myself have give up on it.

Costco and Sam's Club (which are almost everywhere) have excellent photo printers that you can get calibration files for. The cost to print is ridiculously low and the quality is outstanding. Almost all locations can do any size prints within an hour as well. I can upload them from my computer at home and pick them up at the store an hour later.

If I'm sending prints to other people (mailing) I use smugmug/ezprints - the print quality is great and they're very good about getting them done and in the mail quickly.

Between these two options I just could never justify the tremendously high cost of printing at home.

Jane B.

Pupator wrote:

Costco and Sam's Club (which are almost everywhere) have excellent photo printers that you can get calibration files for. .

Glad you put the "almost" in there for Centralia, Illinois where I live has neither!

Jane B.

boulderNardo

So the more research I do, the more I tend towards either

Canon proGraf iPF5000
or
Epson Stylus Pro 3800

The Canon has had a several major problems, and still has significant issues with lacking customer care, but it's supposed to be among the leading on the market as far as image quality and low ink consumption goes. The Epson 3800 has no (apparent) issues and absolutely great customer service, but about 50% more ink usage / cost than the Canon. Especially with the Canon, which supports roll fed paper, it seems like prices-per-print can be kept very low.

For the Canon, I found the following numbers (can't remember where, I'll search for the reference):

8" x 10" print, per page, $0.66 cents
13" x 19" print, per page, $2.08 cents
16" x 20" print, per page, $3.03 cents

Those prices are inclusive of ink and paper, but do nt take into account the depreciation value and safe value of the printer itself. At those prices (even up to TWICE as much, i.e. ~$1.50 per 8x10 print), I believe a 'home-lab' to be cost-effective on top of useful/handy/cool.

I just sent in a few prints to my local grocery store photo service (KingSoopers), and despite being cheap at $2.00 per 8x10" print, the service does not offer bigger prints (13x19, 16x20), and is still the same or slightly more expensive as printing with either the Canon or the Epson.

These are my thoughts so far ... More to come as I do more research, and obviously any more from you guys welcome!
-bernardo

gluwater

Be careful of specs on average ink usage per print because they are generally not even close to real world figures. I use an HP9180 and love it. It is more expensive but it has the best prints I've seen from comparable printers and the prints are rated at 200+ years. For more info on it go to the Yahoo user group.

boulderNardo

gluwater wrote:

Be careful of specs on average ink usage per print because they are generally not even close to real world figures. I use an HP9180 and love it. It is more expensive but it has the best prints I've seen from comparable printers and the prints are rated at 200+ years. For more info on it go to the Yahoo user group.

Thanks for the cautionary words. Those numbers I found were actual tested numbers, not manufacturers' claims.

HP9180 you mean this one?
http://www.amazon.com/HP-Photosmart-Pro-B9180-Printer/dp/B000GWMK8C/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1203542072&sr=1-2
Doesn't seem more expsneive (@$600), I assume you meant more expensive "per print"?

I just picked up the 8x12 printouts from my local lab, and I'm not satisfied whatsoever, which convinces me more of the comfort & usefulness of a home photo lab.

-bernardo

gluwater

Yes, I was talking about per print. I haven't researched it in a while but it was a little more expensive per print.

billg71

I'll second Nick's caution about relying on average figures, much less figures like the "tested" ones you quoted. Ink usage varies from one photo to another, with the quality level of the print, the type of paper, etc.. Unless you happen across a tester that runs the same photo at the same conditions on the same paper for different printers, any hard and fast cost figures are pretty much meaningless.

For example, I just looked at the job log on my 3800 and, for the last 4 13x19 prints I ran I averaged 2.13ml of ink per print. At a cost of $48.00 for an 80ml cartridge, that's $1.27/print or $1.03/sft.. But that doesn't take into account ink used for charging, changing from matte to photo blacks, cleaning, wasted prints, etc.. And the prints were very different, one used 1.32ml, another used 2.58ml for example.

But, in the month or so I've had this printer, I've printed a total of 83 prints(mostly 8.5x11) and used almost 240ml of ink, including the initial charge. Backing out the initial charge at about 10% of all cartridges, that comes to 174ml. That gives you an average of $1.25/print but, considering that almost all of those were 8.5x11 printed at 7x10 with a border, the sft cost is now over $2.50.

And that's not even taking into account how many were printed at 1440dpi(most) or 2880dpi which uses more ink, much less the cost of paper.

About the best I can come up with is the old rule of thumb of somewhere around $2.00-2.50/sft for ink and paper costs totally depend on the paper you use most and the quantities you buy it in.

The big advantage of doing your own printing is that you get a wider choice of paper and the ability to see your prints immediately. In the long run, I save by printing my own(especially in the larger sizes) compared to a custom lab, but it's the ability to control my output that keeps me feeding two pro Epsons.

Sorry about the long post but I hope this helps a little,

Bill

boulderNardo

Thanks for the great insight, Bill!
It helps a lot indeed. Obviously numbers like that are significant only if put into context, I definitely agree with you.

I am still very much considering the Canon iPF5000 for its low initial cost (can get it for $1000 with 1080ml = ~$500 worth of ink), its overall low per-page cost, the fact that it has never once clogged, and its image quality.

Then, on the other hand, I tend towards the Epson 3800 for its great customer service, also low initial cost (~$1100 with $300 worth of ink), and definitely for its image quality.

Fortunately, I have a few more weeks to get the money and decide
-bernardo

Tango

, now that your settling in with the idea of printing at home...
let me open a new can of worms for you...:giggle what paper are going to use?

let me tell you some things ive come across...
i tested ezprint againts mpix, costco, walmart, etc...
and yes ezprints is the best of what i tested.
clarity sharpness was what was most important for me.
there was a world of difference between the two online developing site compared to the local labs...
the online lab were very nice, clarity was excellent, the local labs costco & walmart looked ok until you compared with the prints from ezprint & mpix.

anyway what am i getting too?...i believe any of these printers you list will be great. i have a canon pro9500 and it matches ezprint head to head imo.
only with the pigment dye i must use moab luster to avoid metasomething. (pigment dye is for rag, canvas, & texture papers)

so my point is i dont trust quality of local labs, and i dont like to wait and pay for shipping for the online labs, so home printing is for me!....

good luck

btw, prepare yourself for the calibrating work you will need to do...
im no rocket scientist and it showed...it took me longer than i care to admit

boulderNardo

Thanks for more insight, Aaron!
Ironically, I *am* a rocket scientist, so hopefully I won't have too much difficulty doing all the calibration work :P
The point you make only makes me want a home printer even more - the ability to be able to pick which type of paper I print on is simply too useful.

Sam

BoulderNardo,

You have received a lot of good solid information, but that won't stop me from mudding the waters.

One thing I will point out is that inkjet prints will not be as physically robust as a lab print, and depending on paper etc can be on the fragile side.

These prices in my opinion are shear fantasy.

8" x 10" print, per page, $0.66 cents
13" x 19" print, per page, $2.08 cents
16" x 20" print, per page, $3.03 cents

Bills est of around $0.02 per square inch is closer the reality, but remember this is just the ink.

How about the paper? A few examples of 8.5X11:

Red River satin, or gloss: $ 26.75 plus tax (box of 50), and or shipping. I use $30.00 as a cost. This equals $.060 per sheet.

Hahnemule Photo Rag Pearl 8.5X11: $36.50, (box of 20), plus tax, and or shipping. I use $40.00 as a cost. This equals $2.00 per sheet.

This becomes more of an issue at the larger sizes: Hahnemule Photo Rag 308 as an example is $89.00 (box of 20) plus tax, and or shipping> I use $96.00 as cost. This is
$4.80 per sheet.
Now if you print out a 13X19 image on this paper, and use a cost of $0.02 per sq in, you have a cost of $9.75. Not counting test prints errors etc. Add in 15% for this, and you "could" have a cost of $9.90.

Not bad for a high quality 13X19 print! But one down side to this is that you can have some meaningful inventory costs. I have about 10 boxes of different paper, and at different sizes, 6 rolls of paper between $70.00 to $135.00 per roll, and when I need ink, it will cost me $900.00 for a set.

Oh I have the ipf5000, and yes it's aint perfect, but nether are the Epsons, or the HP's.

I can say however the quality is superb, and had I to do it all over again I wouldn't hesitate to byuy it.

Sam

darkdragon

Sam wrote:

Not bad for a high quality 13X19 print! But one down side to this is that you can have some meaningful inventory costs. I have about 10 boxes of different paper, and at different sizes, 6 rolls of paper between $70.00 to $135.00 per roll, and when I need ink, it will cost me $900.00 for a set.

$900 for a set of ink?
:jawdrop
How long does the ink last if you just let it sit (say you print 3 11x14 prints every other month)?
Is that a normal cost for a set of inks for the pro printers?

I am really on the fence of going strictly smugmug or going smugmug+home print. After getting my first smugmug print, I am definately wanting to get away from the local lab (which just prints with printers, like i woud do at home - large prints are done a on a plotter-like printer).

I'm looking hard at the Canon pro9000. Dunno about the Epsons because I can't find one in town to test out!

Its so hard to make a choice on these things (for me) - do I need it? I dont know. Would it be nice to have? definately.

Sam

Lisa,

The normal desk top 8.5", or 13" wide printer has a ink cartridge of about 11 to 13 ml. The ipf5000 cartridges are 130 ml each. So although the individual ink cartridges, and the total set cost a lot more they last a LOT longer, and the economics are much better.

The larger printers have ink cartridges of 300ml to 700ml with even higher initial costs and better long term costs.

One of the main reasons to own your own printer is control, and the ability to print on the spot.

If your only printing a few 11X14 every other month it will be much cheaper to outsource your printing.

There are substantial differences between dye based, and pigmented ink printers as well.

Sam

angwaite

epson printing costs

"Those prices are inclusive of ink and paper, but do nt take into account the depreciation value and safe value of the printer itself. At those prices (even up to TWICE as much, i.e. ~$1.50 per 8x10 print), I believe a 'home-lab' to be cost-effective on top of useful/handy/cool."

I'm a little late to this thread but thought you might appreciate this link that looks at the media and ink costs with an Epson printer. I too am looking at printing at home for fine art prints because of the amount of tweaking needed at the printers to get it right. I would like to keep control and be able to print on demand for orders. I also thought it would be cheaper and allow a bit more margin but not sure of that yet.
http://www.pictureline.com/newsletter/article.php?id=289

sanaka

I too have the HP B9180 and second Gluwater's enthusiasm for it. In fact, I couldn't be more thrilled with mine.

I won't comment on $/print other than to agree that it's not necessarily cheaper to 'roll your own'. I just feel a good photo printer is crucial for being able to make one-off prints on demand, and for printing on different papers, like truly matte rag or textured watercolor papers, or canvas if you like. Also for projects like CD inserts and cards that want to be printed on two sides. Also, inkjet prints these days on the right paper are more archival than lab photos.

For four+ years I ran an Epson 1280 with a continuous feed system (external bottles of third party archival pigment ink feeding the print heads via long tubes). The prints I did get were just lovely, and archival, but getting them was such a fussy, headachey nightmare that I became totally soured on both Epson and the external feed concept. My dusty, 6 yr. old $90 HP 5550 workaday inkjet is still going strong. It made me wish that HP would enter the archival small inkjet market. So naturally I jumped readily when the B9180 came out.

In the year I've had it, it's been a zero maintenace, zero problem workhorse. The prints are wonderful. The gloss and matte blacks are both always on board, unlike some Epsons. This printer purges and maintains its own heads, using minimal ink. You can ignore the low ink warnings because there is also an 'ink is out' warning where the printer will stop until you replace the cartridge. I've had this happen mid print and the print still came out perfect! I could go on and on.

Peace,
Sanaka