2nd 580EX or Pocket Wizard?

PindyPindy Registered Users Posts: 1,089 Major grins
edited February 28, 2008 in Accessories
I have $400 burning a hole in my pocket. I'm trying to set up an off-camera hotshoe flash/umbrella setup and have the umbrella, stand, clamp and a 580EX II. I have extensively read the various EOS flash links but cannot come to a decision about whether it's better value to:

1) buy a second flash which would allow for wireless ETTL now and when I do eventually get a radio transmitter, I'll already have two good flashes, OR

2) do I go for the PW now and enjoy the one flash, without ETTL but with the best wireless units? I can always add a 2nd flash later. Oh, and a 3rd PW. :cry

3) ST-E2. This seems like a less-than-valuable purchase compared to the other two. More like icing on the cake. I know Pathfinder et al are fans.

The thing that bugs me is that the PW is so expensive, but the thing that's keeping me from buying the Elinchrom Skyport is the built-in PW support on Sekonic and certain studio lights, both of which I see in my future. I feel like I'll kick myself later and I'm not really interested in the eBay options.

Opinions? It's all hinging on YOU.

Comments

  • Scott_QuierScott_Quier Registered Users Posts: 6,524 Major grins
    edited February 27, 2008
    A question to ask yourself - "How often will you want to use off-camera flash in the outdoors?" As I understand it, the IR transmission between the 580EX and/or the ST-E2 is sometimes compromised when attempted in bright sun-light and/or when you don't have direct, line-of-sight between the units.

    But, these units are said to work very well if you are shooting indoors where you have good line-of-sight between the various units.

    The PWs work very well, regardless of the lighting conditions and they work over a much larger range as well.
  • cmasoncmason Registered Users Posts: 2,506 Major grins
    edited February 27, 2008
    Try this as an option: find one or two 420EX or 430EX. You can get a 420EX for $100-150 online here or at FM. Use your existing 580EX as the controller, and learn over time what you need. Or, buy a 430EX and an ST-E2, using your 580EX as a flash.

    This will get you dual off-camera lighting for between $200 and $400 approx. Lots less than one PW. And it isn't wasted...of course you can sell the flashes and ST-E2 here anytime, and use the flashes as hair lights or fill lights later.
  • PindyPindy Registered Users Posts: 1,089 Major grins
    edited February 27, 2008
    cmason wrote:
    Try this as an option: find one or two 420EX or 430EX. You can get a 420EX for $100-150 online here or at FM. Use your existing 580EX as the controller, and learn over time what you need. Or, buy a 430EX and an ST-E2, using your 580EX as a flash.

    This will get you dual off-camera lighting for between $200 and $400 approx. Lots less than one PW. And it isn't wasted...of course you can sell the flashes and ST-E2 here anytime, and use the flashes as hair lights or fill lights later.

    I considered the 430 for a bit, but I decided I wanted two equally powered flashes. I agree, you've got a cost-effective kit there, despite the imbalance of power. Still considering it, but I'm skewed more towards getting in on the ground floor of a more powerful system... Thanks again!
  • PindyPindy Registered Users Posts: 1,089 Major grins
    edited February 27, 2008
    A question to ask yourself - "How often will you want to use off-camera flash in the outdoors?" As I understand it, the IR transmission between the 580EX and/or the ST-E2 is sometimes compromised when attempted in bright sun-light and/or when you don't have direct, line-of-sight between the units.

    The PWs work very well, regardless of the lighting conditions and they work over a much larger range as well.

    Yeah, The ST-E2 is definitely last on my list for that reason. I think I would use flashes outdoors quite a bit, but likely early AM, dusk and at night. I expect to use modifiers so I think that might make relying on line-of-sight transmission kinda questionable.
  • Scott_QuierScott_Quier Registered Users Posts: 6,524 Major grins
    edited February 27, 2008
    Pindy wrote:
    Yeah, The ST-E2 is definitely last on my list for that reason. I think I would use flashes outdoors quite a bit, but likely early AM, dusk and at night. I expect to use modifiers so I think that might make relying on line-of-sight transmission kinda questionable.
    And line-of-sight is pretty much required outdoors. So, if you are going to do off-camera flash, it looks like you need some sort of radio transmitters. There are alternatives to the $250 for a PW (and you will need 2 of them). There's been a lot of threads on the cheaper alternatives. You might check out this thread as a starting point for your research.
  • rwellsrwells Registered Users Posts: 6,084 Major grins
    edited February 27, 2008
    Are you going to be shooting pics for profit? Assignments/events etc?

    If so, as with all your gear, I would strongly suggest backup equipment. I purchased a 580EXII to have a backup to my 580EX. Also, for all the lighting options that it opens up. The 580EX series is a very powerful speedlight, and will allow you to take pics where other lesser powered flash units may leave you wanting.

    Also, remember that the 580EX & 580EXII when used as "Master" can control (3) groups of flash's (A, B & C - with C being a background slated group). Each group is unlimited in number of units you can use. The ST-E2 can only control (2) groups (A & B)

    Also, many people (myself included) are very excited about a new and very promising product called RadioPoppers. They allow the use of ETTL-II info, but send it via RF, like PocketWizards. Should be the best of both worlds. With these units, you can still use your off-camera flash in full manual mode if you wish, but with the convenience of being able to change power settings (etc...) from your camera, and also with reliability in full sun, etc.

    The ability to use ETTL on remote flash's, under most any condition, will certainly make life a LOT easier in many a situation.

    I think when this product is for sale (it's being used by certain high-end photogs now) that there will be a significant move to use Canon/Nikon ETTL/iTTL units.


    Whoops!
    Didn't want to sound like a commercial for that product, but I truly think it will heavily influence decisions like yours, for a lot of photogs.

    Hope that helps...
    Randy
  • pathfinderpathfinder Super Moderators Posts: 14,708 moderator
    edited February 27, 2008
    A question to ask yourself - "How often will you want to use off-camera flash in the outdoors?" As I understand it, the IR transmission between the 580EX and/or the ST-E2 is sometimes compromised when attempted in bright sun-light and/or when you don't have direct, line-of-sight between the units.

    But, these units are said to work very well if you are shooting indoors where you have good line-of-sight between the various units.

    The PWs work very well, regardless of the lighting conditions and they work over a much larger range as well.

    Actually, Scott I use the ST-E2 out of doors quite frequently.

    As for example, here

    175884687_2KK7j-L.jpg

    They take a bit of learning, but ETTL is really nice to have when you need itne_nau.gif Funny thing is, that I use PWs in the studio, but St-E2 out of doors. Go figure. The reason I use an ST-E2 rather than a second 580ex is mostly due to size and weight. The 580ex as a MASTER will control three channels, but I rarely really need more than two with available light outside.

    I spent quite a bit of time going over this decision myself, and ultimately found I wanted and needed both techniques. There are other radio transmitters that are cheaper than PWs, but PWs just work extremely well. But I Always carry a 580ex and an ST-E2 in my backpack.
    Pathfinder - www.pathfinder.smugmug.com

    Moderator of the Technique Forum and Finishing School on Dgrin
  • pathfinderpathfinder Super Moderators Posts: 14,708 moderator
    edited February 27, 2008
    rwells wrote:
    Are you going to be shooting pics for profit? Assignments/events etc?

    If so, as with all your gear, I would strongly suggest backup equipment. I purchased a 580EXII to have a backup to my 580EX. Also, for all the lighting options that it opens up. The 580EX series is a very powerful speedlight, and will allow you to take pics where other lesser powered flash units may leave you wanting.

    Also, remember that the 580EX & 580EXII when used as "Master" can control (3) groups of flash's (A, B & C - with C being a background slated group). Each group is unlimited in number of units you can use. The ST-E2 can only control (2) groups (A & B)

    Also, many people (myself included) are very excited about a new and very promising product called RadioPoppers. They allow the use of ETTL-II info, but send it via RF, like PocketWizards. Should be the best of both worlds. With these units, you can still use your off-camera flash in full manual mode if you wish, but with the convenience of being able to change power settings (etc...) from your camera, and also with reliability in full sun, etc.

    The ability to use ETTL on remote flash's, under most any condition, will certainly make life a LOT easier in many a situation.

    I think when this product is for sale (it's being used by certain high-end photogs now) that there will be a significant move to use Canon/Nikon ETTL/iTTL units.


    Whoops!
    Didn't want to sound like a commercial for that product, but I truly think it will heavily influence decisions like yours, for a lot of photogs.

    Hope that helps...

    Like you Randy, I am very interested in Radio Poppers if and when they are really for sale. Do you know if they are truly available yet? Radio control and reliability with ETTL-II will be the holy grail.
    Pathfinder - www.pathfinder.smugmug.com

    Moderator of the Technique Forum and Finishing School on Dgrin
  • rwellsrwells Registered Users Posts: 6,084 Major grins
    edited February 27, 2008
    pathfinder wrote:
    Like you Randy, I am very interested in Radio Poppers if and when they are really for sale. Do you know if they are truly available yet? Radio control and reliability with ETTL-II will be the holy grail.


    They are not available as of today. I am on Kevin King's mailing list, so hopefully I'll get a heads-up when they are. As per the link I provided, you can see that he does have a few "production" units out in the hands of some photogs. I say production, because Kevin has stated for the last few weeks that he was in the final stages of testing units that were produced from the actual production facility, not from a lab.

    Can't wait clap.gif
    Randy
  • NikolaiNikolai Registered Users Posts: 19,035 Major grins
    edited February 27, 2008
    rwells wrote:
    ...Also, many people (myself included) are very excited about a new and very promising product called RadioPoppers. They allow the use of ETTL-II info, but send it via RF, like PocketWizards. Should be the best of both worlds. With these units, you can still use your off-camera flash in full manual mode if you wish, but with the convenience of being able to change power settings (etc...) from your camera, and also with reliability in full sun, etc.

    The ability to use ETTL on remote flash's, under most any condition, will certainly make life a LOT easier in many a situation.

    I think when this product is for sale (it's being used by certain high-end photogs now) that there will be a significant move to use Canon/Nikon ETTL/iTTL units.


    Whoops!
    Didn't want to sound like a commercial for that product, but I truly think it will heavily influence decisions like yours, for a lot of photogs.

    Hope that helps...

    Looks like a missing link. thumb.gif
    Being able to control 580 remotely and reliably would make location shooting sooooo much easier. deal.gif
    Any idea on the price tag? headscratch.gif
    "May the f/stop be with you!"
  • rwellsrwells Registered Users Posts: 6,084 Major grins
    edited February 27, 2008
    Nikolai wrote:
    Looks like a missing link. thumb.gif
    Being able to control 580 remotely and reliably would make location shooting sooooo much easier. deal.gif
    Any idea on the price tag? headscratch.gif


    Hey Nik,


    You can go to their website (http://www.radiopopper.com/blog/) and check out all the info on their blog. Everything you could possibly want to know about them. Kevin King, the owner, gladly answers questions on the blog.

    They just posted today that their P1 units passed all FCC tests.
    "We must now wait for the Comission to issue our ID number - a unique number issued to every piece of certified radio gear. It’s a paperwork process which is currently taking between two and five weeks."


    Looks like the P1 (which we are talking about here) will be $175.00 ea. They are going to make a unit that just triggers, like a PocketWizard, later this year. He is targeting the Popper Jr. @ $25.00 ea. That's gonna' put a real hurt on PocketWizard.

    NOTE: Read his site, but: This is NOT a stand alone unit. You will need some kind of master unit (IE:ST-E2, 580EX, 580EXII). His unit takes the info from the master (ST-E2, etc) and transmits it to the receiver unit that you have with the remote flash.
    Randy
  • pathfinderpathfinder Super Moderators Posts: 14,708 moderator
    edited February 27, 2008
    Randy, it looks like we might actually see production units some time this year yet. How cool is that!!

    But they will not be a substitute for a Master strobe or an ST-E2 as they are still required to trigger the Radio Popper, as you mentioned.
    Pathfinder - www.pathfinder.smugmug.com

    Moderator of the Technique Forum and Finishing School on Dgrin
  • NikolaiNikolai Registered Users Posts: 19,035 Major grins
    edited February 27, 2008
    rwells wrote:
    Hey Nik,
    ....
    NOTE: Read his site, but: This is NOT a stand alone unit. You will need some kind of master unit (IE:ST-E2, 580EX, 580EXII). His unit takes the info from the master (ST-E2, etc) and transmits it to the receiver unit that you have with the remote flash.

    Oh, thank you for the clarification, Randy, I must admit I missed it. :bash
    Well, it makes it a bit less interesting then ne_nau.gif
    "May the f/stop be with you!"
  • PindyPindy Registered Users Posts: 1,089 Major grins
    edited February 27, 2008
    Okay so the RadioPopper does not preclude the purchase of a 2nd 580EX or an ST-E2. The plot thickens.
  • PhotoskipperPhotoskipper Registered Users Posts: 453 Major grins
    edited February 27, 2008
    rwells wrote:
    Are you going to be shooting pics for profit? Assignments/events etc?

    If so, as with all your gear, I would strongly suggest backup equipment. I purchased a 580EXII to have a backup to my 580EX. Also, for all the lighting options that it opens up. The 580EX series is a very powerful speedlight, and will allow you to take pics where other lesser powered flash units may leave you wanting.

    Also, remember that the 580EX & 580EXII when used as "Master" can control (3) groups of flash's (A, B & C - with C being a background slated group). Each group is unlimited in number of units you can use. The ST-E2 can only control (2) groups (A & B)

    Also, many people (myself included) are very excited about a new and very promising product called RadioPoppers. They allow the use of ETTL-II info, but send it via RF, like PocketWizards. Should be the best of both worlds. With these units, you can still use your off-camera flash in full manual mode if you wish, but with the convenience of being able to change power settings (etc...) from your camera, and also with reliability in full sun, etc.

    The ability to use ETTL on remote flash's, under most any condition, will certainly make life a LOT easier in many a situation.

    I think when this product is for sale (it's being used by certain high-end photogs now) that there will be a significant move to use Canon/Nikon ETTL/iTTL units.


    Whoops!
    Didn't want to sound like a commercial for that product, but I truly think it will heavily influence decisions like yours, for a lot of photogs.

    Hope that helps...

    I would like to echo to Randy on the back up equipment. I like the idea and may change my upgrade strategy.

    I got the 550EX with the Rebel couple years ago and upgrade the camera to 5D without getting a new flash. I also have Sunbitz and old Ricoh flash (30 years old but still working well) and 2 light trigger hotshoes for off-camera flash. They all work fine for product commerical photos and outdoor night photo projects. But just looks a bit "cheapy"
    Considering to upgrade the flash for some time and looking into the QFlash. Found it too expensive to start and there are some learning curve.
    So now planning to get a 580EXII as main and master flash then move the 550EX as slave and backup, continue to use the othe lowend flash for background or add-on flash. Considering to go to ebay and look for the older 420, 550 or 580 as back up and replace the other old flashs. The 550EX can continue to be the flash for the Rebel or for its future replacement - 40D.
    The advantage of doing this is that I don't need to learn too much new things, cheaper to start, can pay slowly according to the income (from photos), can share the power pack and some accessories.
    Photoskipper
    flickr.com/photos/photoskipper/
  • PindyPindy Registered Users Posts: 1,089 Major grins
    edited February 28, 2008
    I don't get paid for pictures I take, but I take your points about backup gear. Part of me thinks this is reason enough to buy a second 580.
  • PittspilotPittspilot Registered Users Posts: 128 Major grins
    edited February 28, 2008
    Pindy wrote:
    I have $400 burning a hole in my pocket. I'm trying to set up an off-camera hotshoe flash/umbrella setup and have the umbrella, stand, clamp and a 580EX II. I have extensively read the various EOS flash links but cannot come to a decision about whether it's better value to:

    1) buy a second flash which would allow for wireless ETTL now and when I do eventually get a radio transmitter, I'll already have two good flashes, OR

    2) do I go for the PW now and enjoy the one flash, without ETTL but with the best wireless units? I can always add a 2nd flash later. Oh, and a 3rd PW. :cry

    3) ST-E2. This seems like a less-than-valuable purchase compared to the other two. More like icing on the cake. I know Pathfinder et al are fans.

    The thing that bugs me is that the PW is so expensive, but the thing that's keeping me from buying the Elinchrom Skyport is the built-in PW support on Sekonic and certain studio lights, both of which I see in my future. I feel like I'll kick myself later and I'm not really interested in the eBay options.

    Opinions? It's all hinging on YOU.


    If you go the PW route, also think about HOW to connect the PW to the off-camera 580. There is no plug on the flash head. I have used a separate shoe that was, to say the least, flimsy (it broke the first time I picked the stand up with the flash on it). Someone recommended Zebraflash's unit, connector (and they have a kit to mod the 580 directly), but I haven't lashed out yet.

    Cheers
  • PindyPindy Registered Users Posts: 1,089 Major grins
    edited February 28, 2008
    Pittspilot wrote:
    If you go the PW route, also think about HOW to connect the PW to the off-camera 580. There is no plug on the flash head. I have used a separate shoe that was, to say the least, flimsy (it broke the first time I picked the stand up with the flash on it). Someone recommended Zebraflash's unit, connector (and they have a kit to mod the 580 directly), but I haven't lashed out yet.

    Cheers

    I have the 580EX II, so PC jacks ahoy.
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