NCAA Help Please?

KED · March 17, 2008

I have posted on this elsewhere but things are coming to a head and maybe I should have come here in the first place. My son is a D-I lacrosse player. I volunteered to shoot the team's games, and I post on SM with free downloads. When the head coach learned of my offer he was thrilled and offered to get me a field credential/press pass. The school's SID has totally blocked me and, long story short, it's clear that he's protecting his "guy" on the field and has a general animosity toward parents being on the sideline, regardless of the reason. His excuse, however, is the NCAA's "extra benefits" thing.

After comparing images from Saturday's game, I believe that I am as good a shooter as his "guy". We have the same gear (Canon 1D series, long glass), but all he does is stand on the shutter button and post every image on his website ( shot from the stands and posted 120 images; he shot from the field and posted 1,020!!!!). He should take up video for crying out loud.

The paragraph above comes off as a rant, but the point is this: It is the fact that I am a parent that is keeping me off the sideline. There is no benefit to me in this other than the joy of shooting; for which, the price I pay is not really getting to watch my kid play, not having memories of his glorious moments when they come, and oh by the way the 10+ hours of PP that each game entails.

So finally to the point: any clever ideas on getting credentialed if the school itself won't play along? I'm not hopeful, but I am desperate. Shooting from the stands sucks. As a sub-issue, there are home games (where the "guy" is ensconced and he is welcome to it) and then there are away games (where there is no competitive issue), and I'm trying to figure out the etiquette of getting onto other teams' fields.

Sorry to ramble; this is terribly important to me and I don't know where else to turn but my mentors here on Dgrin.

Frog Lady · March 17, 2008

do you have a (small) home town newspaper that you might be able to get credentials from and then give them the option to print a few of their home town big league player?

good luck

C.

Mulder32 · March 17, 2008

My 2 cents
Getting credentials is tough because, technically, you have to be "working" for someone. When I worked for newspapers, this was easy, but now that I'm freelancing, not quite so easy!

I'm assuming there are restrictions for photographers being on the field without credentials, so you're in a bit of pinch. Have you talked to the coach about the conflict? He may be able to put some heat on the SID--probably a longshot, but worth trying.

Other than that, road games are a possibility if you contact the other team's coach/SID. If you explain your situation, other schools may be more friendly (especially if you get some good shots of their guys and offer to send them to their school).

UT Scott · March 18, 2008

I'm not sure how it is with lacrosse, but I know with NCAA basketball and football the only people the SID will credential are working media. This isn't just to keep others off the field, it's to protect themselves. The NCAA has some really really strict rules about who can do what with pictures of NCAA athletes and it's very likely that your SID is simply trying to protect his players.

johng · March 18, 2008

I obviously can't know what is in the SID's mind. But NCAA rules and regulations are a very good and legit reason. There is potential harm to athletes and to the program if rules are violated. So from a business perspective (and NCAA athletics are still a business) why incur the risk?

Also, I can understand not wanting parents on the sidelenes. What is the criteria then? How good your photos are? Should you have access but not another parent because you're a better photographer? What if the want to shoot video? Is that OK, or is it again subjective - only the 'good' videographers are allowed on the field. In which case a parent not 'good enough' could simply hire a freelancer.

There are a lot of potential headaches the program gets by granting a parent access. So why should they?

As a parent and a photographer, I understand your desire to be down there taking photos. But as a business man I understand it's not in the schools best interest to let you.

KED · March 18, 2008

Frog Lady wrote:

do you have a (small) home town newspaper that you might be able to get credentials from and then give them the option to print a few of their home town big league player?

good luck

C.

Not a bad idea, and BOY is it small! Thanks.

KED · March 18, 2008

Mulder32 wrote:

Getting credentials is tough because, technically, you have to be "working" for someone. When I worked for newspapers, this was easy, but now that I'm freelancing, not quite so easy!

I'm assuming there are restrictions for photographers being on the field without credentials, so you're in a bit of pinch. Have you talked to the coach about the conflict? He may be able to put some heat on the SID--probably a longshot, but worth trying.

Other than that, road games are a possibility if you contact the other team's coach/SID. If you explain your situation, other schools may be more friendly (especially if you get some good shots of their guys and offer to send them to their school).

The coach is my biggest advocate! And I have already been on the field for the one road game that I've been able to attend -- I had a business associate who was very well connected at the school, but it was no big deal at all as far as that AD was concerned.

Suppose I were able to score a credential from a local paper or something -- could the university still block me because THEY haven't issued a credential, or does the First Amendment trump private property access in such a case?

KED · March 18, 2008

johng wrote:

As a parent and a photographer, I understand your desire to be down there taking photos. But as a business man I understand it's not in the schools best interest to let you.

At least cut me enough slack to say that it's not necessarily in the school's best interest.

I just spent 10 hours PP'ing last weekend's crap shoot from the stands; I don't know how many others would be lining up for that "special benefit"!

I hear and respect everything you are saying. I just won't stop until I get my desired outcome, which is not motivated at all by financial considerations. I am really trying to give something to this program (and the giving so far has been hugely appreciated). I just want it to be the best that it can be. I certainly didn't get this kind of resistance when all the school wanted was a donation!

johng · March 18, 2008

KED wrote:

Suppose I were able to score a credential from a local paper or something -- could the university still block me because THEY haven't issued a credential, or does the First Amendment trump private property access in such a case?

Two separate things -
1. Press credentials
2. Field pass

Having press credentials doesn't guarantee you access to any venue. You need to get a field pass from the particular school. Typically a call or letter from the editor will get you set up.

johng · March 18, 2008

KED wrote:

I hear and respect everything you are saying. I just won't stop until I get my desired outcome, which is not motivated at all by financial considerations. I am really trying to give something to this program (and the giving so far has been hugely appreciated). I just want it to be the best that it can be. I certainly didn't get this kind of resistance when all the school wanted was a donation!

Dont misunderstand me. There's a difference between what is in the players interest and what is in the schools. I have no doubt the players and even coach appreciate all the work you do. But an NCAA athletic program is a big business. Your photos don't benefit that business much but they pose risk. That business really doesn't care much about the athletes getting free photos (other than potential violations that might be caused). Now, press coverage is another matter. I agree, trying to score a freelance contract with a small local paper is a great way to make everyone happy.

KED · March 18, 2008

johng wrote:

Two separate things -
1. Press credentials
2. Field pass

Having press credentials doesn't guarantee you access to any venue. You need to get a field pass from the particular school. Typically a call or letter from the editor will get you set up.

As I feared. I'd probably get stymied at home no matter what magic I pull off credential-wise.

Time to turn up the charm-o-meter with the AD!!!

johng · March 18, 2008

I wouldn't be too sure you'd be stopped. Unless you've totally alienated the guy he probably just doesn't want a parent on the field. If you're a member of the press that resolves some of his concerns. I think it's worth a try.

KED · March 18, 2008

johng wrote:

I wouldn't be too sure you'd be stopped. Unless you've totally alienated the guy he probably just doesn't want a parent on the field. If you're a member of the press that resolves some of his concerns. I think it's worth a try.

You must have some experience at the intersection of SID & parent? I have never told the guy off but he has systematically diss'ed me from the outset. Thanks for the guidance, I will continue to go for the cred.

johng · March 18, 2008

KED wrote:

You must have some experience at the intersection of SID & parent? I have never told the guy off but he has systematically diss'ed me from the outset. Thanks for the guidance, I will continue to go for the cred.

Forgot to mention - remember the paper is a business too. They dont just hand out press passes. It's very probably they would want photos of other sports or other subjects. It's highly unlikely they want a freelancer who only shoots one team. So be prepared to offer your services for other sports.

KED · March 18, 2008

johng wrote:

Forgot to mention - remember the paper is a business too. They dont just hand out press passes. It's very probably they would want photos of other sports or other subjects. It's highly unlikely they want a freelancer who only shoots one team. So be prepared to offer your services for other sports.

Ya mean they wouldn't hand out a gold-plated cred just for lacrosse exclusives?

I appreciate your input (and reality check) very much, but I've got this tiny little problem -- my j-o-b, which has nothing whatsoever to do with photography.

KED · March 18, 2008

Thanks Everyone
I thought about pulling this post because it might seem a bit too self-interested and situation-specific, but I am glad that I didn't and am grateful to all of you who have taken the time to respond. I am not giving up on this and look forward to the day when I can post a self-portrait of me with a very important lanyard hanging from my neck!

achambers · March 18, 2008

I've heard, and I could be wrong, the problem is in tne NCAA rules. By allowing you on the field they are 'giving' a 'special' priviledge to your son. The way I understood it, allowing you on the field is considered the same as one of the boosters giving your son a car.

KED · March 18, 2008

achambers wrote:

I've heard, and I could be wrong, the problem is in tne NCAA rules. By allowing you on the field they are 'giving' a 'special' priviledge to your son. The way I understood it, allowing you on the field is considered the same as one of the boosters giving your son a car.

You have heard correctly insofar as it goes. The point I've tried to make is that where the car analogy breaks down is that (a) I'm not profiting from this and (b) as far as the privilege of merely being on the sideline is concerned, I'm not even getting the benefit of watching my son play -- I'm too busy shooting. The benefit here is to the athletes, their parents and the athletic department. It's mostly unpaid work for me beyond the sheer pleasure of shooting.

jonh68 · March 19, 2008

You have heard correctly insofar as it goes. The point I've tried to make is that where the car analogy breaks down is that (a) I'm not profiting from this and (b) as far as the privilege of merely being on the sideline is concerned, I'm not even getting the benefit of watching my son play -- I'm too busy shooting. The benefit here is to the athletes, their parents and the athletic department. It's mostly unpaid work for me beyond the sheer pleasure of shooting.

True, but that goes back to other parents wanting special privileges. Your best bet is to find a paper that will give you credentials and hope they are Ok with you just shooting your sons games and you give them some pictures.

If you do get an arrangement like that, also realize you may not be able to post pictures you send to the paper. I can do whatever I want with the pictures I don't send in, but the paper owns the pics I send in because they may be used as file art if they are not used for the original story. However, you can submit pictures without pay, and it may be different. Your best angle may be to GIVE them pictures in exchange for credentials. That way, the paper doesn't have to too much paperwork, the school gets great pictures in the paper, and you get field level access.

Foochar · March 19, 2008

johng wrote:

I wouldn't be too sure you'd be stopped. Unless you've totally alienated the guy he probably just doesn't want a parent on the field. If you're a member of the press that resolves some of his concerns. I think it's worth a try.

Adding my <2 cents, I don't have any experience with NCAA sports, but based on my limited understanding, and general experience in this world of regulation and CYA that we live in. In my opinion the SID is probably just looking for a defensible position if someone complains to the NCAA about you being on the field. Without any credentials there is probably not a written policy anywhere in the school's athletic policies that would allow you onto the field, so if someone complains to the NCAA it looks like the school made an exception in order to allow you onto the field (possibly because your son is a player, which would be a "special benefit"), and that has the potential to result in NCAA sanctions. On the other hand if you have valid credentials from a legitimate media outlet the SID can point to whatever written policy there is allowing credentialed media access to the field when someone comments on your presence.

Also, with respect to the local paper wanting coverage of multiple sports, I wonder how many local players are playing at that level. In order to have a rationale for having you shoot just your son's lacrosse games, the newspaper could frame its coverage in terms of the local boy who has "made it" in the big leagues of college sports. Depending on the size of your local market there probably aren't many, if any, local players playing NCAA sports at that level, so it makes perfect sense for the paper to have coverage of your son, and not other local athletes. Again, it is all about having a defensible rationale.

rwells · March 19, 2008

KED,

First, I know nothing about college sports in specific detail as I've had no experience with it.

But, I've dealt with pro level sports. It's a business. Business needs to keep tight grips on all aspects of it's business. The promotion of the business (school, organization, etc.) is very critical to its growth and continued success. Also, for most sports, the sale of pictures is a profitable venue.

Now, let's say that YOU owned a sports team, league, etc. You would certainly want to retain complete control over how it's promoted, right?

You would also want to be the beneficiary of monies derived from the sale of photographs, right?

Then why in the world would you allow someone, anyone, to take pictures at one of your events, then GIVE THEM AWAY?

You wouldn't!!!

You wouldn't make any money, and just as important, you've now completely lost control of what's being done with those pics. This could be very damaging to your business. Loosing complete control is NEVER a good thing in business!

I understand your position, but I believe your not understanding theirs. The schools "guy" obviously has some kind of contract with the school. Is what you are wanting to do fair to him?

Pro's have to make a living at photography, otherwise they have to get "real" jobs

There's not much that will make a working pro throw his ears back faster than to find a person (parent, etc.) that is GIVING pics away at an event that he has a contract for. That's taking food out of his mouth.

KED · March 19, 2008

rwells wrote:

KED,

The schools "guy" obviously has some kind of contract with the school. Is what you are wanting to do fair to him?

Yes, since my proposal to the school is that I wouldn't shoot (from the field) games that he shoots. That leaves all the away games and probably half the home games that he elects not to shoot; the rest are his. I don't want to undermine anyone's livelihood.

I absolutely respect the professionals' (yours and others) perspective on this. I'm in finance -- I'm having a hard time making a living myself. (Can anyone loan me a "just shoot me" smiley?)

bham · March 20, 2008

KED wrote:

You have heard correctly insofar as it goes. The point I've tried to make is that where the car analogy breaks down is that (a) I'm not profiting from this and (b) as far as the privilege of merely being on the sideline is concerned, I'm not even getting the benefit of watching my son play -- I'm too busy shooting. The benefit here is to the athletes, their parents and the athletic department. It's mostly unpaid work for me beyond the sheer pleasure of shooting.

You are giving a benefit, free photos, to the athletes of that school. This isn't something all schools and athletes get. If you charge for the photos a fair price, I think this actually eliminates this so called "benefit". Same as a restaurant can't give a free meal to a child and friends of the owners if the child is an NCAA athlete. If they all pay a fair price, then no benefit.

I shoot DI football and basketball and have learned that sometimes those in the athletic department "invent" rules (could be their own misunderstanding, or how the school has always done things, etc), but since the NCAA rules are so complex, the best thing is to go to their site and start searching and reading. That actually have a great search engine for their rules where you can search by any word. www.ncaa.org

You could be with the New York Times, but if the school doesn't give you one of their media passes, it don't mean squat. (If you get a newspaper to "hire" you, they still must get a pass from the school).

KED · March 20, 2008

bham wrote:

You are giving a benefit, free photos, to the athletes of that school.

Just to be clear, the purported benefit is to ME -- being on the sideline when others can't, making money (as if!) related to my kid's athletic endeavors, etc. The benefit of free downloads is available to the players, their parents, the Athletic Dep't and to anyone with internet access who could possibly care.

bham wrote:

You could be with the New York Times, but if the school doesn't give you one of their media passes, it don't mean squat.

That is the crux of it right there. There's no getting around it, whether it's home games or away.

I think we have examined this from every possible angle and much appreciate all the replies. I'm still dogging it through the school, and may yet pull it off. If I do, y'all will be among the first to know!

bham · March 20, 2008

KED wrote:

Just to be clear, the purported benefit is to ME -- being on the sideline when others can't, making money (as if!) related to my kid's athletic endeavors, etc. The benefit of free downloads is available to the players, their parents, the Athletic Dep't and to anyone with internet access who could possibly care.

The school probably doesn't want to be seen as allowing a parent access because then every parent will want equal access to their child's game. That is probably a school policy, and a understandable one at that. Can you imagine every parent wanting to be on the sideline at a DIA college football game.

Again go to the rules source

https://goomer.ncaa.org/wdbctx/LSDBi/LSDBi.LSDBiPackage.ManualSearchInput

bham · March 20, 2008

After doing a search he may be refering to this bylaw

https://goomer.ncaa.org/wdbctx/LSDBi/LSDBi.LSDBiPackage.DisplayBylaw?p_Division=1&p_IndexName=ManualIndex&p_PkValue=18045&p_TextTerms=(benefit)&p_TitleTerms=ThisIsADummyPhraseThatWillNotBeDuplicated&p_BylawNum=13.2.11&p_Text=1_050512110758.HTML&p_ViewAdopted=Adopted&p_BylawType=0&p_ProposedDate=&p_AdoptedDate=&p_EffectiveDate=12-MAY-2005&p_HeadFoot=1&p_CallCount=1

which says:

13.2.11 Benefits for Prospecive Student-Athlete's Family Members.

An institutional staff member may provide a benefit to a member of the prospective student-athlete's family provided: (Revised: 1/10/05)
(a) The family member has a preexisting established relationship with the institutional staff member; and
(b) The benefit provided is consistent with the nature and level of benefits that the institutional staff member has provided to the family member prior to the prospective student-athlete starting classes for the ninth grade.

bham · March 20, 2008

But I would think that this is the rule that they would be more worried about. Because this is the rule that usually gets boosters in trouble for giving things to student athletes that aren't available to the general student body (free meals, loaner vehicle, interest free "loan", showing up to their athletic event and taking free photos, etc).

16.11.2.2.1 Free or Reduced-Cost Services.

An athletics representative may not provide a student-athlete with professional services (for which a fee normally would be charged) without charge or at a reduced cost except as permitted elsewhere in this bylaw. Professional services provided at less than the normal rate or at no expense to a student-athlete are considered an extra benefit unless they are available on the same basis to the general student body.

Also the defintion of an athletics representative is so broad that even average ticket holders could fall under the definition, if buying a ticket is to be considered a financial contribution, not a donation have you (b below) or they did something to promote the program under (e below).

6.4.2 Representatives of Athletics Interests.

An institution's "responsibility" for the conduct of its intercollegiate athletics program shall include responsibility for the acts of individuals, a corporate entity (e.g., apparel or equipment manufacturer) or other organization when a member of the institution's executive or athletics administration or an athletics department staff member has knowledge or should have knowledge that such an individual, corporate entity or other organization: (Revised: 2/16/00)

(a) Has participated in or is a member of an agency or organization as described in Constitution 6.4.1;

(b) Has made financial contributions to the athletics department or to an athletics booster organization of that institution;

(c) Has been requested by the athletics department staff to assist in the recruitment of prospective student-athletes or is assisting in the recruitment of prospective student-athletes;

(d) Has assisted or is assisting in providing benefits to enrolled student-athletes; or

(e) Is otherwise involved in promoting the institution's athletics program.

LUCKYSHOT · March 20, 2008

I have a question, The photographer on the field sells his pictures to Who?
Is he there for a paper, the school or to sell on his own site to parents, etc. I write a nice check out to a lot of leagues on Long Island to get the exclusive right to photograph their events and to be honest. When a parent is there next to me shooting the game and Snapfishing the pictures to the parents it cuts deep into my pocket. If you are there to only take pictures of your son for your enjoyment then no harm no foul, but when you are giving away what others are trying to sell. It hurts.

I dont mean come off badly, Its just I run into this all the time but from the other side of the fence
All the best
Chris

www.longislandimage.smugmug.com

bham · March 20, 2008

KED wrote:

Just to be clear, the purported benefit is to ME -- being on the sideline when others can't, making money (as if!) related to my kid's athletic endeavors, etc. The benefit of free downloads is available to the players, their parents, the Athletic Dep't and to anyone with internet access who could possibly care.

But the benefit of you showing up for free and taking photos that can be accessed for free isn't available to the general student population. You aren't saying you will show up to any intramural game and shoot it for free and then give them the files free. See the free or reduced service rule above.

By charging a fair price for the service (the photos) IMHO then you aren't violating rules by giving an extra benefit. Not to mention, then undercutting the pro trying to earn a living.

johng · March 21, 2008

bham wrote:

But I would think that this is the rule that they would be more worried about. Because this is the rule that usually gets boosters in trouble for giving things to student athletes that aren't available to the general student body (free meals, loaner vehicle, interest free "loan", showing up to their athletic event and taking free photos, etc).

16.11.2.2.1 Free or Reduced-Cost Services.

An athletics representative may not provide a student-athlete with professional services (for which a fee normally would be charged) without charge or at a reduced cost except as permitted elsewhere in this bylaw. Professional services provided at less than the normal rate or at no expense to a student-athlete are considered an extra benefit unless they are available on the same basis to the general student body.

Also the defintion of an athletics representative is so broad that even average ticket holders could fall under the definition, if buying a ticket is to be considered a financial contribution, not a donation have you (b below) or they did something to promote the program under (e below).

6.4.2 Representatives of Athletics Interests.

An institution's "responsibility" for the conduct of its intercollegiate athletics program shall include responsibility for the acts of individuals, a corporate entity (e.g., apparel or equipment manufacturer) or other organization when a member of the institution's executive or athletics administration or an athletics department staff member has knowledge or should have knowledge that such an individual, corporate entity or other organization: (Revised: 2/16/00)

(a) Has participated in or is a member of an agency or organization as described in Constitution 6.4.1;

(b) Has made financial contributions to the athletics department or to an athletics booster organization of that institution;

(c) Has been requested by the athletics department staff to assist in the recruitment of prospective student-athletes or is assisting in the recruitment of prospective student-athletes;

(d) Has assisted or is assisting in providing benefits to enrolled student-athletes; or

(e) Is otherwise involved in promoting the institution's athletics program.

While all the other points in this thread are valid - this is really the crux of the matter in NCAA. A violation of these rules could mean suspensions, fines, exclusion from postseason play etc. Hardly a risk a school wants to take for the limited gain of free photos. And it really is limited gain. There is no upside for the university and a whole lot of downside. Seriously, the free pics are nice and all but it isn't like athletes are going to leave the program if they cant get them.

So if you want access you have to come up with a model that benefits the school AND will not be a violation of the NCAA rules.
It's a double edged sword - you give away photos so that breaks one rule - benefit to players of getting a good or service for free. But if you sell, then you break another rule - YOU are getting a benefit by getting a privilege you didn't receive before your son was a member of the school. This is there for a reason - so schools and boosters cant give jobs to parents if their kid comes to play for them. Either way, a disgruntled third party could have a legitimate case the school violated NCAA policies.

bham · March 21, 2008

johng wrote:

While all the other points in this thread are valid - this is really the crux of the matter in NCAA. A violation of these rules could mean suspensions, fines, exclusion from postseason play etc. Hardly a risk a school wants to take for the limited gain of free photos. And it really is limited gain. There is no upside for the university and a whole lot of downside. Seriously, the free pics are nice and all but it isn't like athletes are going to leave the program if they cant get them.

So if you want access you have to come up with a model that benefits the school AND will not be a violation of the NCAA rules.
It's a double edged sword - you give away photos so that breaks one rule - benefit to players of getting a good or service for free. But if you sell, then you break another rule - YOU are getting a benefit by getting a privilege you didn't receive before your son was a member of the school. This is there for a reason - so schools and boosters cant give jobs to parents if their kid comes to play for them. Either way, a disgruntled third party could have a legitimate case the school violated NCAA policies.

I disagree that if he sells the photos, then he is getting a privilege he didn't receive before (I think you are assuming he gets field access, I was not). But in the least case you aren't likely to get field access unless you become a working media member by working for the newspaper, or get contracted by the school as a freelancer. You may offer the school to start as a freelancer for the away games. A call from school a's athletic department to school b's athletic department usually ensures you can shoot the game. And so it wouldn't call the school unless you get something they want to use, tell the Sports Information guy that you will send him a link of the photos and then he could choose some he may want to use for the web, etc. Many times the school uses a photo along with a article on the game for the athletic website. I have found this to be the most used source of my game shots.

NCAA Help Please?

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