First Indoor Volleyball PICS w/ NEW LENS/Flash!

BLUEThunder

Well, here we go. Thanks to a bunch of you who gave me advice on the "Camera's" thread over the last couple weeks. :wink I have read every last post and took some of your advice and bought a Canon 85mm f1.8 lens and a Canon 430EX Speed light for my Digital Rebel XTi to photograph indoor volleyball in naturally poorly lit gyms.

I took many more shots than I posted. These are some of the "better" ones. That said, keep in mind that I'm very much an ametuer anyway.

I am open to your C&C. I know I have some limitations of shutter speed with the XTi and 430EX (1/200). I shot some with out the flash but most with it. I bounced the flash off the ceiling for most of the shots. I can't believe that worked so well. I had my doubts with the high ceiling but I am a believer now.

I moved around the court. I still need a lot of practice with the pre-focusing with this lens and need a lot of practice on timing. I was often too late. So, take a look and see what you think.

Even considering they are not perfect, I AM REALLY HAPPY with them. IT is SO much better than with my old equipment. :barb

This is one of my favs. It happens to be my daughter and her two best friends. She is #2. #1 on her team and #3 on the other team are her buds...




Here she (daughter) is "pushing" one over...










My daughter after a hard contact....I'm just too slow on the button..


Here's another where I am late...:dunno


Well, that's it. Give it to me. I want to improve. I can take it.

johng

Hi there.
Actually a couple points:
1. Did you verify flash is allowed? I know in my state, Ohio, flash is prohibited at HS level and strongly discouraged at other levels. Your area may be different but I would advise getting approval to use it.

2. On the photos themselves most of these are a bit too soft and lacking detail. That's because they were shot from too far away and cropped. I've found 20 feet to be the limit of the 85 - so thru the net shots are difficult to get without a sharp angle.

Timing will come with more practice - it's tough. But you want to stick with action that's closer - or you need a longer lens. But the style of shots you're going for are a bit too much reach for a lot of success with the 85.
I might suggest getting some shots from the side
It's easier to get sharper photos with the 85 that way:





For what it's worth, I find about 135mm is what you need to shoot from behind the court thru the net.

SavedByZero

johng wrote:

Hi there.
Actually a couple points:
1. Did you verify flash is allowed? I know in my state, Ohio, flash is prohibited at HS level and strongly discouraged at other levels. Your area may be different but I would advise getting approval to use it.

Yeah I introduced that into his previous thread as I've run into problems shooting with flash at Volleyball, not basketball but just Volleyball.

And plus 1 on getting from behind the other team to shooting from close to the net pole into your daughters court. You should be able to get some great set shots and digs and bump shots from there. You might be able to get some great shots with a 50 f1.7 at that range too.

BTW what iso did you shoot at?? 800? 1600?? 3200??

BLUEThunder

johng wrote:

Actually a couple points:
1. Did you verify flash is allowed? I know in my state, Ohio, flash is prohibited at HS level and strongly discouraged at other levels. Your area may be different but I would advise getting approval to use it.

2. On the photos themselves most of these are a bit too soft and lacking detail. That's because they were shot from too far away and cropped. I've found 20 feet to be the limit of the 85 - so thru the net shots are difficult to get without a sharp angle.

Timing will come with more practice - it's tough. But you want to stick with action that's closer - or you need a longer lens. But the style of shots you're going for are a bit too much reach for a lot of success with the 85.
I might suggest getting some shots from the side
It's easier to get sharper photos with the 85 that way:

For what it's worth, I find about 135mm is what you need to shoot from behind the court thru the net.

John, Thanks for the advice. Yes, I verified the use of flash before doing so and asked both coaches/teams to let me know if it bothered them. This was a Junior Olympic tournament, not high school. They seem to be pretty open to flash photography....at least as I was doing where I bounced it.

What exactly do you mean the pics are a bit to soft? As I noted, I'm an amature, not sure what you mean here.

But, as you noted, I did crop some of these. The ones that were taken from behind the opposite teams side through the net were a bit far away with that lens and I did crop to just capture what I wanted. That position was suggested to me in another thread. I like shooting from there. I got some good shots from this position. But, as I'm learning, a little longer lens would be better here.

I need to work on getting pics from the side line. I tried a few of these but felt like I was too close and often missed the ball. Maybe I'll post a few of these in a while.

You said something about shots with the 85 like this are difficult without a "sharp angle" What exactly does that mean?

Your pics are great! Thanks for your advice. What lens were your shots taken with?

BLUEThunder

SavedByZero wrote:

And plus 1 on getting from behind the other team to shooting from close to the net pole into your daughters court. You should be able to get some great set shots and digs and bump shots from there. You might be able to get some great shots with a 50 f1.7 at that range too.

BTW what iso did you shoot at?? 800? 1600?? 3200??

Zero, can you explain your shooting positions a little clearer here. I assume you are talking of shooting both from behind the oppostion facing my team and shooting from the side line near the net??

I actually did shoot from both these positions, however, I found shooting from the side line much tougher. I'll keep practicing though! This is fun!

Thanks for your tips!

johng

BLUEThunder wrote:

What exactly do you mean the pics are a bit to soft? As I noted, I'm an amature, not sure what you mean here.

I like shooting from there. I got some good shots from this position. But, as I'm learning, a little longer lens would be better here.


You said something about shots with the 85 like this are difficult without a "sharp angle" What exactly does that mean?

Your pics are great! Thanks for your advice. What lens were your shots taken with?

First, the pictures I posted were with the same lens. The point was to illustrate how much sharper you can get when you aren't so far away from your subject. Glad you liked them (note: my point wasn't to hijack your thread I posted them to illustrate a point - a picture being worth a thousand words and all).

'soft' means details are not sharply defined. look at the faces in your shots through the net compared to the shots I posted - see how much more facial detail there is?

By sharp angle I was referring to the fact that in order to shoot effectively thru the net you can't shoot from behind the court (where you are at a 90 degree angle to the net) the lens doesn't perform well from that far away. You have to shoot from the side. And they usually don't like you right at the side line because players can run out that way for a ball. So you usually have to be right up behind the net judge or if further down the line they want you WAY off the line. In either position you're at a very sharp angle to the net. Shooting from behind the court or from above are preferable but you need longer lenses to do that well. So the sharp angle comment refers to shooting thru the net from the side. If you're just shooting action on the same side of the court as in the shots I posted the angle is not sharp. The difficulty of course is the timing but that will come.

Also, as you may have noticed - if the player isn't right up on the net it's difficult to focus on them THRU the net - camera will have a tendancy to focus on the net not on the player. That's why the shots you have with the player further behind the net have worse focus.

SavedByZero

BLUEThunder wrote:

Zero, can you explain your shooting positions a little clearer here. I assume you are talking of shooting both from behind the oppostion facing my team and shooting from the side line near the net??

I actually did shoot from both these positions, however, I found shooting from the side line much tougher. I'll keep practicing though! This is fun!

Thanks for your tips!

Well with the shorter lens you need to get closer to the action and shooting thru the net can cause AF issues not to mention having a team member on the opposite team stand or jump into your frame at the wrong moment.

If you look at Johng's pics they were taken from these positions along the side line next to the team your trying to shoot. You'll get clear large clear faces, no backs and great action shots if it's a diving dig shot.



Here is where knowing the game really makes a huge difference in your pics since you are always pre focusing on a player who you assume is going to get the ball. Serves goto the back row and the girls will normally do a dig or bump to put the ball up to the front row setter who then sets the ball for someone to spike it or tip it over the net. Knowing how the ball moves around the court allows you to focus on the player and wait for the ball to come into play. Its all aboot practice but once you get the flow you'll get the shots.

BLUEThunder

johng wrote:

First, the pictures I posted were with the same lens. The point was to illustrate how much sharper you can get when you aren't so far away from your subject. Glad you liked them

'soft' means details are not sharply defined. look at the faces in your shots through the net compared to the shots I posted - see how much more facial detail there is?

By sharp angle I was referring to the fact that in order to shoot effectively thru the net you can't shoot from behind the court (where you are at a 90 degree angle to the net) the lens doesn't perform well from that far away. You have to shoot from the side. And they usually don't like you right at the side line because players can run out that way for a ball. So you usually have to be right up behind the net judge or if further down the line they want you WAY off the line. In either position you're at a very sharp angle to the net. Shooting from behind the court or from above are preferable but you need longer lenses to do that well. So the sharp angle comment refers to shooting thru the net from the side. If you're just shooting action on the same side of the court as in the shots I posted the angle is not sharp. The difficulty of course is the timing but that will come.

Also, as you may have noticed - if the player isn't right up on the net it's difficult to focus on them THRU the net - camera will have a tendancy to focus on the net not on the player. That's why the shots you have with the player further behind the net have worse focus.

AWESOME John! Thanks for the great info. It does all make sense. I understand why you posted your pics. No Prob! I appreciate it. I am anxious to shoot some more but just found out that her next tournament isn't until the 16th of April. Oh well, that gives me more time to study and get C&C on these pics.

Were your shots without flash? Were they in a college gym which is often better lit? I'm sure you were shooting with something a little better than my XTi too?

Like I say, I know these shots need improvement, BUT, they are way better than what I was getting with my kit lens or my 70-300 f4._

This is all very exciting for me! It's been a while since I was into photography and getting back into it now in the digital age is fun!

I guess maybe I can get some pics of her playing tennis until her next V'ball opportunity.

joshhuntnm

What would you think of slowing it down (probably need a tripod) to 60 or so and letting the ball blur?

joshhuntnm

Its great how you can see the expressions on the faces. Nice shots.

thejohnremus

joshhuntnm wrote:

What would you think of slowing it down (probably need a tripod) to 60 or so and letting the ball blur?

I would discourage that. Volleyball is one of the faster sports to shoot and high shutter speeds and low apertures are best IMO.. to each his own for personal shots, but for sports images you're going to want that action stopped.

BLUEThunder

SavedByZero wrote:

Here is where knowing the game really makes a huge difference in your pics since you are always pre focusing on a player who you assume is going to get the ball. Knowing how the ball moves around the court allows you to focus on the player and wait for the ball to come into play. Its all aboot practice but once you get the flow you'll get the shots.:D

Thanks again Zero, one thing I do know is the game. I have played quite extensively myself. That certainly has helped me anticipate and pre-focus.

Thanks for the diagram and tips. As one guy said on the new soccer shots thread, playing the game and photographing it are different things. But, playing it certainly helps!

BLUEThunder

joshhuntnm wrote:

Its great how you can see the expressions on the faces. Nice shots.

Are you speaking of my shots or Johns? I know his are much clearer. I need to heed some of his tips about shooting closer (ie from the sideline) and getting a crisper focus.

johng

Bluethunder,

to answer your questions - it is a HS gym, no flash. These were taken with a mkIII but don't get the wrong idea. Your camera can take some great photos as well - especially with the benefit of flash.

One other thing - to be successful, IMO, you cant watch the sport like a fan - you have to watch it like a photographer. Whether it's volleyball, soccer whatever. That can be more difficult when we've played the sport (double edged sword that) - for volleyball you want to look at how they're setting up for the next volley, how the strikers are positioning whether or not the set is a good location, etc... But what you should be doing is identifying as quickly as possible where the action is most likely to be for your players and sit on that area for the upcoming volly. That makes shooting from the side more difficult because you cant always see the whole court like you can from behind everyone.

As to the other poster's suggestion - using 1/60. I would advise against that as well. 1/400 natural light shows quite enough motion blur in ball and hands. I'd shoot 1/800 if I could get away with it.

BLUEThunder

johng wrote:

Bluethunder,

to answer your questions - it is a HS gym, no flash. These were taken with a mkIII but don't get the wrong idea. Your camera can take some great photos as well - especially with the benefit of flash.

One other thing - to be successful, IMO, you cant watch the sport like a fan - you have to watch it like a photographer. Whether it's volleyball, soccer whatever. That can be more difficult when we've played the sport (double edged sword that) - for volleyball you want to look at how they're setting up for the next volley, how the strikers are positioning whether or not the set is a good location, etc... But what you should be doing is identifying as quickly as possible where the action is most likely to be for your players and sit on that area for the upcoming volly. That makes shooting from the side more difficult because you cant always see the whole court like you can from behind everyone.

As to the other poster's suggestion - using 1/60. I would advise against that as well. 1/400 natural light shows quite enough motion blur in ball and hands. I'd shoot 1/800 if I could get away with it.

John, Once again, THANKS! I appreciate any advice I can get. And you are making sense to me. And on the shutter speed, yeah, I agree I need to keep it as fast as I can.

One thing I have definitely noticed is when photographing these games, I have no idea how our team is doing or if that last hit was "good" or anything. Like you said, you can't watch it like a fan.

Please feel free. I'm open to any suggestions.