And I'll put in another plug for Nikon cameras I posted this elsewhere for someone else, so just copied it here. If you're willing to go used, you can do even better on the body and have more for lenses and/or flash I got a nice D1h used for $249. :ivar:ivar
I will chime in as well. I have the D80 and D300. I still love my D80. Another option for an inexpensive lense as, well as the 50mm, would be the Tamron 28-300mm, I have this lense myself and, use it as a general walking around lense. But you will want a flash, onboard flashes stink to me. Also the D80 has the Flash Commander mode so you can mount the SB-600 and, 800 of the camera for better lighting. Nice for portraits, more lighting options are always better.
And there are alot of Canonites on this board, we Nikonians are the minority.:duel
Don't overlook Olympus and 4/3rd lens system
Lots of people act as if your only options are Canon or Nikon - the power of saturation marketing, I suppose, and they are good products. But don't overlook the Olympus line. Look at the E-1 system or the E-510 and by all means get yerself informed about the 4/3rds lens system. They're shorter and lighter than standard equivalents and ... unlike when they first came out, these lenses are now affordable. I did a lot of work (for $$) with my first Oly, the E-10 (pre-4/rds system). At 4 mp, when new, it was almost the biggest sensor out there and it did very very good work. I now have an E-500 and three 4/3rds lenses (and a LowePro shoulder bag that holds it all) and am quite happy.:ivar
Another Nikon user chiming in...
I have both a Nikon D80 and a D300. Both are great cameras! (I think it is pretty easy to argue that the D300 is the best prosumer camera out there right now but I don't recommend you lie to your wife to get it) But as all the posts have indicated, both Nikon and Canon (and I am sure others) have great cameras and lenses. I went with Nikon because years ago when I shot film most people chose Nikon because their lenses were often considered superior. I don't know if this is true but I do know they make some great glass. I couldn't be happier.
So first advice, if you have to choose between glass and camera, choose glass. It will stay with you forever and will make a greater difference in your pics. Second advice (sorry to others), buy Canon or Nikon as these two brands have GREAT products and since they dominate the market nearly all accessories will work with these brands. Third, get a good mid-range zoom (I think the Nikon 24-85 f/3.5-4.5 is a great inexpensive zoom though it is tougher to find because it wa recently discontinued.) And while I don't have one, I hear the Nikon 18-55 VR is a great starter zoom. You'll love VR (called IS on Canons) Since you'll still have a few dollars to play with buy a 50mm 1.8 (which is a great Nikon lens) and maybe a 85mm f/1.8 (or 20mm f/2.8) for low light. The 20mm, 50mm and 85mm are older lenses but they are great lenses and can be bought used for really great prices. They will focus a little bit slower but fast enough for 98% of what you might want to shoot.
Don't under estimate some budget for accessories. You will want a flash (sb600 is great on a budget) and the D80 will fire it remotely with "commander mode". You will also want a reflector... maybe a 32 or 42 incher.
BH has the D80 with the 18-55VR for $890.
A new 50mm f/1.8 is $110.
I picked up a 85mm f/1.8 on craigslist for $320 and a 20mm f/2.8 for $225.
The sb600 flash is $185.
A 32 inch white/silver reflector is about $30.
So you could get the D80 with 18-55vr, the 50mm and 85mm, the sb600 and the reflector for $1535. Of course, you'll need to use a grocery bag to carry it all around in..... or spend another $50 for a camera bag...
And last, I'd stay away from the Tamron 28-75mm lens. While Richard has had a great experience, just as many others have not. That Tamron lens gets very mixed reviews overall. The one I had was definately soft. Nikon makes affordable consumer lenses and costly pro lenses. I recommend you try and stay within the Nikon line for most of your glass.
Confessions
Ok, here are a few additional pieces of information that might add to the conversation. On the Canon side, I work at a school that has a great photography instructor who uses Canon equipment. I could borrow a number of lenses from the school when/if needed. On the Nikon side, when I first began catching the photography bug I hung out with some local newspaper photographers who all used and advocated Nikon equipment, so I've developed a bit of a Nikon bias.
Finally, I do have some accessories: camera bag, reflector (though I don't know how to use it), and then a bunch of filters and a light table that I used with my old film camera.
I'm loving this forum. You are all helping me feel like I'll be making a very informed, well thought out decision when the time comes. And I'm glad the Nikon advocates have chimed in.
I'm still a little hung up on the Nikon d80 vs. the Canon 40d. Is the d80 not in the same class as the 40d? I will not have the option to upgrade for a very long time. I could spend the money on a group of lenses now, or I could get a body that I'll be satisfied with for a long time and build my lens collection slowly.
This is just hard! You know what would make this a lot easier?... If you all would pitch in and send me a bunch of money. Let me know if you need my address.
Canon 5d mii, Canon 50mm f/1.8, 35mm 1.4L, 70-200mm IS L
Here's a question nobody's thought to ask yet: What do you have now?
While everyone's been pushing the latest/greatest (read:most expensive) bodies currently out, I really don't think they are necessary for what you have in mind. Yeah, all the new bells & whistles are nice, but those eat into the tight budget available quickly & better glass > newer bodies in most cases. I would look at a generation or two older bodies and use the extra money for better glass. You will be updating the body eventually anyway, but the glass will stick around.
You've already mentioned availability of Canon gear for loan. There's also a lot more Canon gear available to rent. Next comes Nikon, then the rest come a long, long way behind. So, while the other guys are making progress, I would still recommend sticking with Nikon or Canon as both have far more support.
Chris, I'd hardly call the D80 the latest and greatest or most expensive, since it came out in September of 2006 at $999, but it would be enough of a camera to keep the OP happy for a few years since they stated that this will have to last a few years
From his profile, he doesn't have any gear listed, so maybe it's a first camera
I recommend for the body, going for a used over a new, to have more money for glass, as well, but gave pricing for the new in box D80 and D60's. A used D2h can be had for $849 in good condition, used, and will be more than enough to grow into, then get a D300 or D3 used in 3-4 years time.
The one gripe I've seen from some Canon users is the lens quality factor where they've had to send a few back to get a sharp copy, don't see it quite so much from Nikon users.
Some of those used Nikon manual focus lenses would also help in getting a good kit together cheaply, plus they are cheaper than the AF ones, and at least the mount's the same throughout.
Main thing is though, is putting each camera in hand, feeling it, running through the menus and see if it makes sense and feels good in your hands.
Try renting!!!
I have the d40 kit, cost just under 600 bucks, the new d60 is out and quite usable. I also have my pride and joy D200 which I would kill for (ok I wouldn't kill for it, but you know what I mean).
All and all it's a matter of personal preferance. I would suggest visiting your local camera shops, or go online here in another portion of the forums and you can rent equipment to try it out. this might be the best solution for you. You spend little to rent it and if you don't like it you can try another.
I would check with andy or doc on what vendors could help you out on here.
just my 2 cents!
So far, with the exception of DonnaLu, everyone is pushing the Canon. Sorry DonnaLu, I don't think I have the amount of sweetness it would take to get the d300. I'd have to take out a huge sweetness loan or something.
Is the 40d simply a far superior camera to the d80? Anyone care to plug the Nikon d80?
Ok, here are a few additional pieces of information that might add to the conversation. On the Canon side, I work at a school that has a great photography instructor who uses Canon equipment. I could borrow a number of lenses from the school when/if needed. On the Nikon side, when I first began catching the photography bug I hung out with some local newspaper photographers who all used and advocated Nikon equipment, so I've developed a bit of a Nikon bias.
.
buddy, put each camera in your hands.
then you will know.
a instructor that will borrow out lens....holy cow..... i wouldnt ever borrow glass....rent yes, borrow no.
but anyway. get good glass, and any body will do while you learn and get broke-in...:D
Costco?
Another comment... I too recommend supporting your local store as long as it is a good store with good knowledgeable service. My locally owned stores are horrible in service and I am gravely concerned they will not be in business in the near future... therefore ongoing support is unlikely.
The big mailorder houses can give some good service. I have been very pleased with BH, not quite so much with Adorama.
But there is another alternative... Costco online. I noticed today they have the D40, D60, D80 and D300 on thier site. Many with various lens alternatives. The prices may or may not be the best, but Costco's return policy is the best.
I hope I don't lose the respect of other Dgrinners with this post but I am simply tossing out alternatives.
get good glass, and any body will do while you learn and get broke-in...:D
Go Canon. They make great stuff and it will compatible with what you can borrow.
Now that's done.
Get an XSi, a 17-85, a lens hood, and a 430EX. You'll be very happy, have a good all-around camera, and take great pictures. Take care of your equipment. When it's time to upgrade, you can sell it for darn near what you paid for it. At least that's been my experience.
PM me and I'll send you my address so you can send me a thank you note for giving you such great advice.
"Press the shutter when you are sure of success." —Kim Jong-il
Am I going to notice a difference in the 50 mm 1.8 vs. the 50 mm 1.4?
I only have the 1.8, and I must say that although I spent on 500$ to 1500$ lenses, this one is the best quality/price ratio of all my lenses... I had paid 120$ CAN for it,before the CAN/US $ parity. I just couldn't live without it. It makes absolutely amazing portraits, and not bad at all macro too, although I bought the sigma 105mm for that. Also, it is the only lense I don't care dropping or damaging since it is (relatively) so cheap!
You will get some bias answers because Canon lovers will swing you to Canon and Nikon to Nikon.
My investment was under a budget too.
I got the Nikon D80 and chose two medium priced lenses then youhave to have the money for the memory card too...and i got those things for your budget at BH. Now I still need to swing for a bag and tripod that will go over the budget !
But I agree, go somewhere where you can touch and feel the cameras you are thinking about. A lot of times they will fire it up and put on lenses for you to play with too.
I'm a Nikon fan as well, however I've always thought the D80 felt very cheap and plastic'ky. I'd grab a used D200 and a decent mid zoom, a bag, a flash, and a memory card. There are a lot of people who buy the latest model and sell off their old one a year later. I'm guessing there are a good amount of used D200's on the used market that have very few shutter actuations on them and are in terrific condition. I'd much rather a great used body than a mediocre new one, and this is even more true with glass.
Okay- non biased information is-
1. Figure out what you are going to be shooting primarily
2. What do you eventually want to be able to shoot
3. Price- obviously
4. Any gear/lenses you already own
5. Ergonomics- must go and hold the camera!!
6. Personal Preference- menus- live view- etc.
There is also 1 and 2 lens package systems some even with the FL50 electronic flash too. They have the kits lenses but the 40-150 F3.5-5.6 is a very good lens.
Best of luck in whichever system you choose. I stongly suggest heading to a pro shop and holding the cameras in your range though!
"The Journey of life is as much in oneself as the roads one travels"
Used Canon 30D or even a 20D and the 17-55/2.8 IS new. Both cameras are perfectly capable of not getting in the way of getting the shot. And that lens is sweeeeet! I mostly shoot with my 20D and 17-55.
And! Do not forget to get a good bag, memory card and spare batteries.
If you're looking for something smaller (my camera with the grip, 2 batteries, strap and lens weighs in at four pounds). There's the new Olympus E420 and it's pancake 25mm 'kit' lens. If had the money ($700 for the pair) I'd replace my carry-anywhere p&s with one of those.
As a word of warning though, if you buy any dslr, the next year it's batteries, different lenses, flashes, then a another bag because it won't fit with the new toys... :poke
One of the things I've heard is that there was a big jump in quality from the Canon 30d to the 40d. I was told that the difference is greater between the 30d and 40d than the difference between the 20d and the 30d. Do you guys agree?
Also, I'd love to see sample photos with some of the gear that we're talking about. If anyone feels like pointing me to their gallery, I'd love to see samples from the Nikon d80 with a great lense and the Canon 30d or 40d with a great lense.
Canon 5d mii, Canon 50mm f/1.8, 35mm 1.4L, 70-200mm IS L
One of the things I've heard is that there was a big jump in quality from the Canon 30d to the 40d. I was told that the difference is greater between the 30d and 40d than the difference between the 20d and the 30d. Do you guys agree?
Also, I'd love to see sample photos with some of the gear that we're talking about. If anyone feels like pointing me to their gallery, I'd love to see samples from the Nikon d80 with a great lense and the Canon 30d or 40d with a great lense.
The diffences between the 20D and 30D are small, they share the same sensor and processing, the 30D just added a few features like rgb histograms and a spot metering mode.
40D is a new camera, it's got better everything, but with the 20D/30D already being pretty good, I went for the 2 for price of 1 option.
DPReview has sample images from almost all cameras mentioned in this thread.
One of the things I've heard is that there was a big jump in quality from the Canon 30d to the 40d. I was told that the difference is greater between the 30d and 40d than the difference between the 20d and the 30d. Do you guys agree?
Also, I'd love to see sample photos with some of the gear that we're talking about. If anyone feels like pointing me to their gallery, I'd love to see samples from the Nikon d80 with a great lense and the Canon 30d or 40d with a great lense.
I don't think it's a major image quality jump from the 20D/30D to the 40D, but the feature set of the 40D is pretty compelling compared to the previous cameras. If anything, high ISO noise levels on the 40D are a bit more unless you turn on the high ISO noise reduction, and then they are a bit less than previous, at the expense of shot buffer depth.
I do like that the dynamic range of the 40D is now almost flat up to ISO 800, and still very nice at ISO 1600. There is some compromise at ISO 3200 in tonality.
How many shutter clicks is too many?
I'm looking at a used Nikon d200 on Amazon.com (Cam-O-Rama) for $920. The description says there is only about 10,000 clicks on the shutter release. Is that too many to buy this camera?
Canon 5d mii, Canon 50mm f/1.8, 35mm 1.4L, 70-200mm IS L
Haven't really put all my 40D images online yet, but I was going through my pix from the auto show and this one was ISO 1600 and similar to the noise I got out of other shots. Not much difference between NR on or off on this pic. I'll work on getting them up after I get out of school tomorrow. I'll also post the NR off of this same shot.
I do believe I have some more 3200, again I haven't uploaded much from my 40D lately. Definitely have more 1600 shots.
This was taken my first day really sitting down with the camera...
handheld live view, 24-70 @ 70mm, f/2.8, 1/50, ISO 3200, high iso NR, straight out the cam jpg.
Even though I can get some good shots out of my XTi above 400, there are a lot of times where I have to run NR and Despeckle in PSE or the results are unacceptable and I have to trash the image.
My XTi is not as reliable regarding grain and red noise above ISO 400 as my 40D is at 1600, that's for sure. In other words, I would not second guess shooting at ISO 1600 on the 40D, but I always second guess going above ISO 400 on my XTi, and I actively try to keep my ISO between 100-400.
Canon 40D : Canon 400D : Canon Elan 7NE : Canon 580EX : 2 x Canon 430EX : Canon 24-70 f2.8L : Canon 70-200mm f/2.8L USM : Canon 28-135mm f/3.5 IS : 18-55mm f/3.5 : 4GB Sandisk Extreme III : 2GB Sandisk Extreme III : 2 x 1GB Sandisk Ultra II : Sekonik L358
I've had my 40D and 17-55 2.8 IS since Dec. I take pics every day and nearly every one is with that lens. (My only other lens is the 85 1.8 right now, but that will change soon!) The most I had spent on a lens before buying that one was about $380 with my previous Minolta system, so spending nearly triple that amount was a bit shocking. I'm SOOO glad I did.
Elaine
Comments and constructive critique always welcome!
Comments
I will chime in as well. I have the D80 and D300. I still love my D80. Another option for an inexpensive lense as, well as the 50mm, would be the Tamron 28-300mm, I have this lense myself and, use it as a general walking around lense. But you will want a flash, onboard flashes stink to me. Also the D80 has the Flash Commander mode so you can mount the SB-600 and, 800 of the camera for better lighting. Nice for portraits, more lighting options are always better.
And there are alot of Canonites on this board, we Nikonians are the minority.:duel
http://joves.smugmug.com/
Lots of people act as if your only options are Canon or Nikon - the power of saturation marketing, I suppose, and they are good products. But don't overlook the Olympus line. Look at the E-1 system or the E-510 and by all means get yerself informed about the 4/3rds lens system. They're shorter and lighter than standard equivalents and ... unlike when they first came out, these lenses are now affordable. I did a lot of work (for $$) with my first Oly, the E-10 (pre-4/rds system). At 4 mp, when new, it was almost the biggest sensor out there and it did very very good work. I now have an E-500 and three 4/3rds lenses (and a LowePro shoulder bag that holds it all) and am quite happy.:ivar
I have both a Nikon D80 and a D300. Both are great cameras! (I think it is pretty easy to argue that the D300 is the best prosumer camera out there right now but I don't recommend you lie to your wife to get it) But as all the posts have indicated, both Nikon and Canon (and I am sure others) have great cameras and lenses. I went with Nikon because years ago when I shot film most people chose Nikon because their lenses were often considered superior. I don't know if this is true but I do know they make some great glass. I couldn't be happier.
So first advice, if you have to choose between glass and camera, choose glass. It will stay with you forever and will make a greater difference in your pics. Second advice (sorry to others), buy Canon or Nikon as these two brands have GREAT products and since they dominate the market nearly all accessories will work with these brands. Third, get a good mid-range zoom (I think the Nikon 24-85 f/3.5-4.5 is a great inexpensive zoom though it is tougher to find because it wa recently discontinued.) And while I don't have one, I hear the Nikon 18-55 VR is a great starter zoom. You'll love VR (called IS on Canons) Since you'll still have a few dollars to play with buy a 50mm 1.8 (which is a great Nikon lens) and maybe a 85mm f/1.8 (or 20mm f/2.8) for low light. The 20mm, 50mm and 85mm are older lenses but they are great lenses and can be bought used for really great prices. They will focus a little bit slower but fast enough for 98% of what you might want to shoot.
Don't under estimate some budget for accessories. You will want a flash (sb600 is great on a budget) and the D80 will fire it remotely with "commander mode". You will also want a reflector... maybe a 32 or 42 incher.
BH has the D80 with the 18-55VR for $890.
A new 50mm f/1.8 is $110.
I picked up a 85mm f/1.8 on craigslist for $320 and a 20mm f/2.8 for $225.
The sb600 flash is $185.
A 32 inch white/silver reflector is about $30.
So you could get the D80 with 18-55vr, the 50mm and 85mm, the sb600 and the reflector for $1535. Of course, you'll need to use a grocery bag to carry it all around in..... or spend another $50 for a camera bag...
And last, I'd stay away from the Tamron 28-75mm lens. While Richard has had a great experience, just as many others have not. That Tamron lens gets very mixed reviews overall. The one I had was definately soft. Nikon makes affordable consumer lenses and costly pro lenses. I recommend you try and stay within the Nikon line for most of your glass.
I hope this helps! Go Nikon!
Life and Lens Photography
www.lifeandlens.com
Ok, here are a few additional pieces of information that might add to the conversation. On the Canon side, I work at a school that has a great photography instructor who uses Canon equipment. I could borrow a number of lenses from the school when/if needed. On the Nikon side, when I first began catching the photography bug I hung out with some local newspaper photographers who all used and advocated Nikon equipment, so I've developed a bit of a Nikon bias.
Finally, I do have some accessories: camera bag, reflector (though I don't know how to use it), and then a bunch of filters and a light table that I used with my old film camera.
I'm loving this forum. You are all helping me feel like I'll be making a very informed, well thought out decision when the time comes. And I'm glad the Nikon advocates have chimed in.
I'm still a little hung up on the Nikon d80 vs. the Canon 40d. Is the d80 not in the same class as the 40d? I will not have the option to upgrade for a very long time. I could spend the money on a group of lenses now, or I could get a body that I'll be satisfied with for a long time and build my lens collection slowly.
This is just hard! You know what would make this a lot easier?... If you all would pitch in and send me a bunch of money. Let me know if you need my address.
email: mark@markleonardimaging.com
While everyone's been pushing the latest/greatest (read:most expensive) bodies currently out, I really don't think they are necessary for what you have in mind. Yeah, all the new bells & whistles are nice, but those eat into the tight budget available quickly & better glass > newer bodies in most cases. I would look at a generation or two older bodies and use the extra money for better glass. You will be updating the body eventually anyway, but the glass will stick around.
You've already mentioned availability of Canon gear for loan. There's also a lot more Canon gear available to rent. Next comes Nikon, then the rest come a long, long way behind. So, while the other guys are making progress, I would still recommend sticking with Nikon or Canon as both have far more support.
http://www.chrislaudermilkphoto.com/
Looking at the price I would say D80 is the same class as the XTi/XSi. 40D is a step up (I think D200 was it's comp).
dak.smugmug.com
Yeah, as far as I can figure the Canon/nikon is not a 1:1 relationship. More like
D40 (n) --> XTi (c) --> D80 (n) --> 40D (c) --> D200 (n) --> 5D (c)
I would recommend (given your budget) Canon 40D (no kit), 50mm F/1.4 (for those low-light baby pictures), tripod, 5-in-1 22" reflector kit ($25)
That brings you to $1500 if you get it online (no sales tax).
You can borrow lenses from school, rent them for special occasions, and purchase with next year's tax refund.
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/NikonD80/
From his profile, he doesn't have any gear listed, so maybe it's a first camera
I recommend for the body, going for a used over a new, to have more money for glass, as well, but gave pricing for the new in box D80 and D60's. A used D2h can be had for $849 in good condition, used, and will be more than enough to grow into, then get a D300 or D3 used in 3-4 years time.
The one gripe I've seen from some Canon users is the lens quality factor where they've had to send a few back to get a sharp copy, don't see it quite so much from Nikon users.
Some of those used Nikon manual focus lenses would also help in getting a good kit together cheaply, plus they are cheaper than the AF ones, and at least the mount's the same throughout.
Main thing is though, is putting each camera in hand, feeling it, running through the menus and see if it makes sense and feels good in your hands.
I have the d40 kit, cost just under 600 bucks, the new d60 is out and quite usable. I also have my pride and joy D200 which I would kill for (ok I wouldn't kill for it, but you know what I mean).
All and all it's a matter of personal preferance. I would suggest visiting your local camera shops, or go online here in another portion of the forums and you can rent equipment to try it out. this might be the best solution for you. You spend little to rent it and if you don't like it you can try another.
I would check with andy or doc on what vendors could help you out on here.
just my 2 cents!
The d80 is a great camera - All shots on my wedding portfolio right now are from that or the D70.
The replacement for the D80 is due out relatively soon.
Spend your money on better glass than on better bodies (to a point).
Honestly, you might be better off with a D70, a 50/1.4, and a pro-level 2.8 zoom. You'd still but under-budget and you'd have some awesome glass.
Here is a wedding website I created for a customer as a value-add. Comments appreciated.
Founding member of The Professional Photography Forum as well.
buddy, put each camera in your hands.
then you will know.
a instructor that will borrow out lens....holy cow..... i wouldnt ever borrow glass....rent yes, borrow no.
but anyway. get good glass, and any body will do while you learn and get broke-in...:D
Another comment... I too recommend supporting your local store as long as it is a good store with good knowledgeable service. My locally owned stores are horrible in service and I am gravely concerned they will not be in business in the near future... therefore ongoing support is unlikely.
The big mailorder houses can give some good service. I have been very pleased with BH, not quite so much with Adorama.
But there is another alternative... Costco online. I noticed today they have the D40, D60, D80 and D300 on thier site. Many with various lens alternatives. The prices may or may not be the best, but Costco's return policy is the best.
I hope I don't lose the respect of other Dgrinners with this post but I am simply tossing out alternatives.
Life and Lens Photography
www.lifeandlens.com
Go Canon. They make great stuff and it will compatible with what you can borrow.
Now that's done.
Get an XSi, a 17-85, a lens hood, and a 430EX. You'll be very happy, have a good all-around camera, and take great pictures. Take care of your equipment. When it's time to upgrade, you can sell it for darn near what you paid for it. At least that's been my experience.
PM me and I'll send you my address so you can send me a thank you note for giving you such great advice.
NEW Smugmug Site
I only have the 1.8, and I must say that although I spent on 500$ to 1500$ lenses, this one is the best quality/price ratio of all my lenses... I had paid 120$ CAN for it,before the CAN/US $ parity. I just couldn't live without it. It makes absolutely amazing portraits, and not bad at all macro too, although I bought the sigma 105mm for that. Also, it is the only lense I don't care dropping or damaging since it is (relatively) so cheap!
My investment was under a budget too.
I got the Nikon D80 and chose two medium priced lenses then youhave to have the money for the memory card too...and i got those things for your budget at BH. Now I still need to swing for a bag and tripod that will go over the budget
But I agree, go somewhere where you can touch and feel the cameras you are thinking about. A lot of times they will fire it up and put on lenses for you to play with too.
I'm a Nikon Girl:tuesday
www.BriShayPhotography.com
regular site
oo
smug site
1. Figure out what you are going to be shooting primarily
2. What do you eventually want to be able to shoot
3. Price- obviously
4. Any gear/lenses you already own
5. Ergonomics- must go and hold the camera!!
6. Personal Preference- menus- live view- etc.
Now to throw a whole new system in the mix
Olympus-
Bodies-
E-420 body only $499
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/549006-REG/Olympus_262080_E_420_SLR_Digital_Camera.html
E-510 Body only $485
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/486568-REG/Olympus_262070_Evolt_E_510_Digital_Camera.html
E-500 Body Only $250 used $420 new
http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B000BK393Y/ref=dp_olp_3
E-1 used $400
Flashes
FL50R- $430 get this one if you go w/ Olympus- can be controlled in camera without radio slave
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/527573-REG/Olympus_260116_FL_50R_TTL_Shoe_Mount.html
FL50 $ 373 (older electronic version- but is as good as the competitors)
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0000E68U2/ref=s9at3-rfc_p-2814_g2_sims_c4_484942_91006_15611_11697_13579_14282_17287_18550?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=center-4&pf_rd_r=1N1YFMR70CK9WA7DQ2FS&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=372728601&pf_rd_i=507846
Lenses-
11-22 F2.8-3.5 $675
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/301910-REG/Olympus_261007_11_22mm_f_2_8_3_5_ED_Lens.html
18-180 F3.5-6.3 $425
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/405349-REG/Olympus_261054_18_180mm_f_3_5_6_3_ED_Zuiko.html
14-54 F2.8 - 3.5 $430
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/405349-REG/Olympus_261054_18_180mm_f_3_5_6_3_ED_Zuiko.html
Not one of the big two but a very good product and loyal following. Not many up for sale if you look in the for sale section.
Here is where you can find some used gear -but it doesn't last long. Smugmug sponsored even!!
http://www.fourthirdsphoto.com/vbb/forumdisplay.php?f=7
There is also 1 and 2 lens package systems some even with the FL50 electronic flash too. They have the kits lenses but the 40-150 F3.5-5.6 is a very good lens.
Best of luck in whichever system you choose. I stongly suggest heading to a pro shop and holding the cameras in your range though!
Aaron Newman
Website:www.CapturingLightandEmotion.com
Facebook: Capturing Light and Emotion
Unless he can figure out how to hook it up to a Polaroid camera he doesn't need to worry about that one!
Aaron Newman
Website:www.CapturingLightandEmotion.com
Facebook: Capturing Light and Emotion
also grab the nikon 50mm f1.8 prime for around $100
buy a cheap 50-200mm zoom and save your pennies until next year then pick up the 70-200 f2.8VR. its great for capturing kid sports!
And! Do not forget to get a good bag, memory card and spare batteries.
If you're looking for something smaller (my camera with the grip, 2 batteries, strap and lens weighs in at four pounds). There's the new Olympus E420 and it's pancake 25mm 'kit' lens. If had the money ($700 for the pair) I'd replace my carry-anywhere p&s with one of those.
As a word of warning though, if you buy any dslr, the next year it's batteries, different lenses, flashes, then a another bag because it won't fit with the new toys... :poke
http://pyryekholm.kuvat.fi/
Also, I'd love to see sample photos with some of the gear that we're talking about. If anyone feels like pointing me to their gallery, I'd love to see samples from the Nikon d80 with a great lense and the Canon 30d or 40d with a great lense.
email: mark@markleonardimaging.com
The diffences between the 20D and 30D are small, they share the same sensor and processing, the 30D just added a few features like rgb histograms and a spot metering mode.
40D is a new camera, it's got better everything, but with the 20D/30D already being pretty good, I went for the 2 for price of 1 option.
DPReview has sample images from almost all cameras mentioned in this thread.
http://pyryekholm.kuvat.fi/
I don't think it's a major image quality jump from the 20D/30D to the 40D, but the feature set of the 40D is pretty compelling compared to the previous cameras. If anything, high ISO noise levels on the 40D are a bit more unless you turn on the high ISO noise reduction, and then they are a bit less than previous, at the expense of shot buffer depth.
I do like that the dynamic range of the 40D is now almost flat up to ISO 800, and still very nice at ISO 1600. There is some compromise at ISO 3200 in tonality.
Moderator of the Cameras and Accessories forums
I'm looking at a used Nikon d200 on Amazon.com (Cam-O-Rama) for $920. The description says there is only about 10,000 clicks on the shutter release. Is that too many to buy this camera?
email: mark@markleonardimaging.com
raw added NR in Raw Image Task convert to jpg
XL
http://dak.smugmug.com/photos/273838316_5cZRZ-X2.jpg
dak.smugmug.com
http://www.chrislaudermilkphoto.com/
This was taken my first day really sitting down with the camera...
handheld live view, 24-70 @ 70mm, f/2.8, 1/50, ISO 3200, high iso NR, straight out the cam jpg.
Even though I can get some good shots out of my XTi above 400, there are a lot of times where I have to run NR and Despeckle in PSE or the results are unacceptable and I have to trash the image.
My XTi is not as reliable regarding grain and red noise above ISO 400 as my 40D is at 1600, that's for sure. In other words, I would not second guess shooting at ISO 1600 on the 40D, but I always second guess going above ISO 400 on my XTi, and I actively try to keep my ISO between 100-400.
dak.smugmug.com
f2.8, 1600, 1/25
I've had my 40D and 17-55 2.8 IS since Dec. I take pics every day and nearly every one is with that lens. (My only other lens is the 85 1.8 right now, but that will change soon!) The most I had spent on a lens before buying that one was about $380 with my previous Minolta system, so spending nearly triple that amount was a bit shocking. I'm SOOO glad I did.
Comments and constructive critique always welcome!
Elaine Heasley Photography
email: mark@markleonardimaging.com