The Extremely Unofficial Mini Dgrin Shootout

dadwtwinsdadwtwins Registered Users Posts: 804 Major grins
edited April 6, 2008 in Journeys
Thanks to April (AKTSE) for inviting me to go shooting with her and three other DGrin/Smugmug photographers on a fun trip to Alcatraz for a night time shoot.

Attendees included myself, Cal(not a DGRIN member yet:dunno) ,AKTSE, Liquid Air, Schmoo and the rarely ever seen but still has a huge impact Zweiblumen. And yes to answer your questions I was extremely nervous to shoot with such talented photographers. How can you not when you take a glimpse at some of their awesome work.:bow

Since AKTSE introduced me to IR camera's, I thought I would mainly use my new modified IR D80 camera. Below are some of the examples I was able to capture.

We departed pier 33 at 5PM and only had a couple of hours to go crazy and shoot at anything we can, except for those areas deemed restricted to tourists. Even then, someone in our group whom I can not recall(April maybe???), was able to convince one the park rangers to gives us a private guided tour of the underground dungeons.

This is were the original army fort's lower level was covered up by the newer prison but kept accessible. I am not quite sure how the newer prison used this area but originally it was used for the first fortress and military prison on the west coast.

This "lower" prison was used to hold Southern sympathizers/supporters during the Civil War, conscientious objectors during WWI, and a number of Native Americans, beginning in 1873.

OK, ok:rolleyes enough of the history stuff and onto the IR picture set.

First we have the view of the rock from the ferry. The tour included a trip completely around the island so we may see it from all sides. Very cool since the first time and only other time I have gone to Alcatraz, the ferry went straight from SF to the Alcatraz with no photo opportunities.

273291250_X7M3R-M-1.jpg

As we all, 300 hundred people, disembarked from the ferry, we were herded to an open space to get the run down on a little history but more on the rules of the Island. Our group was particularly spoken to by one of the park rangers to explain that we must stay within the barricaded areas and will be immediately escorted off the island if we do not strictly adhere to the rules and stay out of the closed off areas. The Park Rangers here must practice racial profiling using tripods as one of those characteristics of rule breaking tourists.:rofl

While listening to the rules and regs of the island, my mind started to wonder and i happened to gaze over to see this site. I thought it was a cool scene and a great picture to represent new new inhabitants of the Island. Seagulls own this island as they are perched everywhere there is a ledge.

273289572_EdYh4-L-1.jpg

273395203_Hmjan-M.jpg

Walking up to the prison's main entrance I saw this little obscure room/shed that almost looks part of the surrounding landscape. When I looked into the room through severely scratched up plexiglass, I had a chill run up my spine. I did not realize this was the prison's morgue until I saw a little worn out sign hanging on the door.

273290587_t8DFe-L-1.jpg


I totally missed the opportunity to take pictures of the sunset due to trying to capture a shoot inside that just didn't work as well as I wanted. The spiral staircase is really cool looking in person but i was unable to capture it the way I wanted in a photo. Maybe next time:scratch

273291510_tCMY3-L-1.jpg

The rest of the shots here are ones from the private tour of the dungeon area that the nice park ranger took us on.

273300162_Y62Fy-L.jpg

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These last couple were took in the medical ward

252085504_bB9kz-M-5.jpg

273412192_oQgWF-M.jpg

273289930_rvvoa-L-1.jpg

So there it is. A few pictures from two hours of shooting in one of the most famous prison's in the world.

I hope you enjoy the pics and stories as much as i enjoyed shooting with some very talented photographers.
:thumb
My Homepage :thumb-->http://dthorp.smugmug.com
My Photo Blog -->http://dthorpphoto.blogspot.com/
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Comments

  • aktseaktse Registered Users Posts: 1,928 Major grins
    edited April 1, 2008
    :jawdrop

    and I have to say it again:

    :jawdrop

    I was there, and I don't even think my photos can even compare to this.

    Your morque shot just creeps me out an sends shivers down my spine. And The composition of the zig-zag shot -- I wished I took it. I looked at it, thought about, and didn't press the shutter :cry

    And we just got lucky with two nice park ranger (not the one who warned us) -- They shut off the lights for us at the medical ward just so we can try to get some shadows when they closed it off and we also got offered a private tour of the chapel, but we just ran out of time after the dungeon. Not many people can actually see the dungeons of the rock since it's locked up.

    I'm just sorry that Schmoo and Zweiblumen missed their California sunset as a result of the private tour, but I think it was worth it. They just have to come back...

    And I love shooting with dginners... such amazing people. I can't wait to see the other photos from the trip.

    Well done clap.gifclapclap.gifclap

    Now... if only my photos turn out as half as good as these rolleyes1.gif
  • ian408ian408 Administrators Posts: 21,938 moderator
    edited April 1, 2008
    Wow! That's a very unique look at a place I've only ever been during the day.
    Moderator Journeys/Sports/Big Picture :: Need some help with dgrin?
  • shatchshatch Registered Users Posts: 798 Major grins
    edited April 1, 2008
    Wow! The history is as facinating as your highly emotional photos. Your pp really accents the emotion of the photos. Very well done. Looks like it was a great tour. Thanks for sharing.
  • tisuntisun Registered Users Posts: 435 Major grins
    edited April 2, 2008
    Daniel, amazing tour! Great capture and pp. April, will you post your photos, too?
  • CuongCuong Registered Users Posts: 1,508 Major grins
    edited April 2, 2008
    Excellent effort. Who's the guy on the x-ray table?

    Cuong
    "She Was a Little Taste of Heaven – And a One-Way Ticket to Hell!" - Max Phillips
  • dadwtwinsdadwtwins Registered Users Posts: 804 Major grins
    edited April 2, 2008
    yukio wrote:
    Excellent effort. Who's the guy on the x-ray table?

    Cuong

    My version of a Self portraitrolleyes1.gif
    My Homepage :thumb-->http://dthorp.smugmug.com
    My Photo Blog -->http://dthorpphoto.blogspot.com/
  • EiaEia Registered Users Posts: 3,627 Major grins
    edited April 2, 2008
    These are worthy to publish in a Tourist Information pamphlet. The photos look like they capture the ambiene. I don't know if I would have the sense to take a picture because I would be so uptight with the surroundings.

    Was it totally dark in there or did they have enough lighting so that you could see where you were going?

    Awesome job!

    ~Eia~
  • dadwtwinsdadwtwins Registered Users Posts: 804 Major grins
    edited April 2, 2008
    Eia wrote:
    These are worthy to publish in a Tourist Information pamphlet. The photos look like they capture the ambiene. I don't know if I would have the sense to take a picture because I would be so uptight with the surroundings.

    Was it totally dark in there or did they have enough lighting so that you could see where you were going?

    Awesome job!

    ~Eia~

    Thank you very much Eia,

    There was plenty of light in the main areas where the tourists wonder around in their self guided audio tour.

    The dungeon area was fairly dark in places but plenty bright enough to walk around and see where you are going. Most of these shots were shot in IR with a -o.7 exposure adjustment to help set up the dark eerie mood.

    IR cameras are very good for distinguishing the difference between the shadows and highlights. Sometimes too goodheadscratch.gif and I end up blowing out the hightlights and/or having no details in the shadows. It is a style and technique that is very new to me. I am trying to learn to have better control over the proper exposure by shooting and practicing as much as I can with this new toy of mine.
    My Homepage :thumb-->http://dthorp.smugmug.com
    My Photo Blog -->http://dthorpphoto.blogspot.com/
  • Awais YaqubAwais Yaqub Registered Users Posts: 10,572 Major grins
    edited April 2, 2008
    Wow fantastic !
    just amazing
    Thine is the beauty of light; mine is the song of fire. Thy beauty exalts the heart; my song inspires the soul. Allama Iqbal

    My Gallery
  • LiquidAirLiquidAir Registered Users Posts: 1,751 Major grins
    edited April 2, 2008
    Dan's a hard act to follow, but I took some shots using the other 3 colors :D . If you are interested, somewhat larger versions of these are available here.

    Watching the weather report, I was hoping for more intersting skies, but by the time we headed out we had cornflower blue. This is the lighthouse (nearly ths same shot as one of Dan's) in color.
    273880369_9sFq5-M.jpg

    The ferry takes a swing the long way around the island which creates some brief opportunities at angles you can't get from the island. I took a bunch of shots of this building from the shadowed side, but this is the one and only chance I got to see it in the sun
    273880379_36WRT-M.jpg

    The gulls own the island and, unlike the prisoners, come and go as they please.
    273880377_gkE2c-M.jpg

    We ignored this sign and headed into the prison:
    273880384_Necsf-M.jpg

    Remember the building I mentioned earlier? Here it is again. I believe the plant on the right is a blooming Century Plant which blooms only once at the end of a roughly 25 year life span.
    273880400_xQXQr-M.jpg

    The light outside was hard and contrasty making exposures difficult
    273880403_cCDyH-M.jpg

    These rangers (lower right) saw a group of photographers as potential trouble and warned us to stay out of the closed areas:
    273880423_WPVmU-M.jpg

    Here's a place we didn't go:
    273880433_8v5WX-M.jpg

    The Flower of Alcatraz:
    273880427_xQMZv-M.jpg

    The interior of the prison is set up as a museum. This is a display near the entrance:
    273880441_p94is-M.jpg

    We spent a good deal of time in the prison hospital. This is a cell in the hospital set up as a display
    273880454_MfiTx-M.jpg

    Insult to Injury
    273880449_7mZBd-M.jpg

    Schmoo in taking pictures in the hospital:
    273880460_h9Rmr-M.jpg

    Back in the main cell block. This area is closed to most visitors, but we got to see it on our way to a special tour of the basement.
    273880469_NdzXr-L.jpg

    The basement is odd mishmash of a place; remnants of the old fort mixed with structural work for the prison and an earthquake retrofit.
    273880472_BMqL2-M.jpg

    The rangers, somewhat impatiently, waited for me to take this shot as they shoed us off the top of the island:
    273880473_epHGU-L.jpg
  • schmooschmoo Registered Users Posts: 8,468 Major grins
    edited April 2, 2008
    LiquidAir wrote:

    The rangers, somewhat impatiently, waited for me to take this shot as they shoed us off the top of the island:

    You were very brave. I was hastily scampering down the far staircase when I saw them approaching you! rolleyes1.gif

    Dan, Ken, you do some amazing work and this is no different. I hope that I have even 3 or 4 keepers from my set! I love shooting with other folks but when I do I have a bit of trouble focusing. lol3.gif

    An awesome evening and well worth the wind! I'd do it again any time I'm in SF. thumb.gif
  • ulrikftulrikft Registered Users Posts: 372 Major grins
    edited April 2, 2008
    Amazing pictures folks! :D

    Is it rude to ask for a step-by-step guide to your BW conversions? :) They, as we youths say it: ROCK!
    -Ulrik

    Canon EOS 30D, Canon 50mm f/1.4, Sigma 70-200 f/2.8, Sigma 18-50 f/2.8, Tokina 12-24 f/4. Sigma 1.4 TC, Feisol 3401 Tripod + Feisol ballhead, Metz 58 AF-1 C, ebay triggers.
  • Art ScottArt Scott Registered Users Posts: 8,959 Major grins
    edited April 2, 2008
    dadwtwins wrote:
    Thanks to April (AKTSE) for inviting me to go shooting with her and three other DGrin/Smugmug photographers on a fun trip towent straight from SF to the Alcatraz with no photo opportunities.



    As we all, 300 hundred people, disembarked from the ferry, we were herded to an open space to get the run down on a little history but more on the rules of the Island. Our group was particularly spoken to by one of the park rangers to explain that we must stay within the barricaded areas and will be immediately escorted off the island if we do not strictly adhere to the rules and stay out of the closed off areas. The Park Rangers here must practice racial profiling using tripods as one of those characteristics of rule breaking tourists.rolleyes1.gifthumb


    Great seriesof pic....and the reason for the profiling is pretty simple....you ahd SCHMOO along and her reputation for scurring thru falling down crumbling deserted buildings is know from coast to coast and in a few foreing countries also.......:D:D:Drolleyes1.gif ......so the ranger figured he mightas well show you the dungeons cause Schmoo was going to slipping off to scurry about there anywhooooooooo.:ivar
    "Genuine Fractals was, is and will always be the best solution for enlarging digital photos." ....Vincent Versace ... ... COPYRIGHT YOUR WORK ONLINE ... ... My Website

  • dadwtwinsdadwtwins Registered Users Posts: 804 Major grins
    edited April 2, 2008
    ulrikft wrote:
    Amazing pictures folks! :D

    Is it rude to ask for a step-by-step guide to your BW conversions? :) They, as we youths say it: ROCK!

    Its not rude at all. I just do not have a single answer for you. It depends on the subject, the mood I am trying to achieve and the quality of the raw image.

    I realize this sounds like a cop out but it is the truth. I still treat each photo as a film negative and post process each file individually. I do not like to run batch adjustments or actions when it comes to non-sport shots. I am way too much of a control freak to allow a picture of mine to be shown that did not represent how I was viewing that particular scene at the moment I shot it. If it does not come out the way I saw it, it goes into cyber-trash.
    Does that make any sense to anyone elseheadscratch.gif or am I just rambling againeek7.gif
    My Homepage :thumb-->http://dthorp.smugmug.com
    My Photo Blog -->http://dthorpphoto.blogspot.com/
  • dadwtwinsdadwtwins Registered Users Posts: 804 Major grins
    edited April 2, 2008
    schmoo wrote:
    You were very brave. I was hastily scampering down the far staircase when I saw them approaching you! rolleyes1.gif

    Dan, Ken, you do some amazing work and this is no different. I hope that I have even 3 or 4 keepers from my set! I love shooting with other folks but when I do I have a bit of trouble focusing. lol3.gif

    An awesome evening and well worth the wind! I'd do it again any time I'm in SF. thumb.gif

    It was an honor to have met the great Schmoo, LiquidAir and even that tag along, coat tail riding, weight losing, way too funny, way too relaxed great to hang out with Zweiblumenwings.gif.
    My Homepage :thumb-->http://dthorp.smugmug.com
    My Photo Blog -->http://dthorpphoto.blogspot.com/
  • pyrypyry Registered Users Posts: 1,733 Major grins
    edited April 2, 2008
    The difference between takes is huuuge!
    Dark and scary and then sun lit, old and merely dusty.

    Gotta love the 'ghost' in the x-ray room clap.gif

    Good work both of you, let's see what the rest of your little group got!
    Creativity's hard.

    http://pyryekholm.kuvat.fi/
  • AngeloAngelo Super Moderators Posts: 8,937 moderator
    edited April 3, 2008
  • NikolaiNikolai Registered Users Posts: 19,035 Major grins
    edited April 3, 2008
    Wow!bowdown.gif
    Great work guys! thumb.gif
    "May the f/stop be with you!"
  • BendrBendr Registered Users Posts: 665 Major grins
    edited April 3, 2008
    Wow, Great job, some excellent pics.

    But I've got to ask, When did this happen?, How did I miss coming along!? :)
  • aktseaktse Registered Users Posts: 1,928 Major grins
    edited April 3, 2008
    tisun wrote:
    Daniel, amazing tour! Great capture and pp. April, will you post your photos, too?
    Yep.... mine will be posted, but my photos look like snapshots compared to the ones from Dan and LiquidAir. They are truly amazing photographers bowdown.gifbowbowdown.gifbow and are masters of the craft both in seeing/setting up the shot and in the post work that afterwards. And I havne't seen the photos from schmoo, Zweiblumen or Cal, but I know they will be amazing. It was an honor to shoot with such amazing, talented people.
    Bendr wrote:
    Wow, Great job, some excellent pics.

    But I've got to ask, When did this happen?, How did I miss coming along!? :)

    This happened on Sunday, March 30 because Schmoo and Zweiblumen came into town for a quick (and I mean QUICK) visit. If you blinked, you would missed them.. eek7.gif

    And Ben... Sorry to say, I just didn't think of you since you're way up north. And the other reason why I didn't contact other photographers in the bay area (or post about this mini-shootout on dgrin) was that I wanted/needed to keep this group on the small size. I called Alcatraz, and the first person that I spoke with stated that tripods wouldn't be allowed and then I called the national park service, and they said it was allowed as long as we weren't blocking the way of people. ne_nau.gif In addition, the night tours are always sold out and we were luckily just to get our tickets!

    Next time, just convince them to come to town for a longer period of time and we'll shoot in Napa or along the Somona Coast with you! After all, Zweiblumen still hasn't seen a California sunset yet! And, we need to go to Angel Island! And down south to view the Jellys! So much to capture! So little time! :smo
  • aktseaktse Registered Users Posts: 1,928 Major grins
    edited April 3, 2008
    LiquidAir wrote:
    ...
    Schmoo in taking pictures in the hospital:
    273880460_h9Rmr-Th.jpg
    ...
    This is a great use of the fisheye and makes me yearn for one; I think it's now on my shopping list!
    LiquidAir wrote:
    ...
    Back in the main cell block. This area is closed to most visitors, but we got to see it on our way to a special tour of the basement.
    273880469_NdzXr-Th.jpg
    ...
    I remember rushing you for this shot because we were heading into the dungeon with the nice ranger and we needed to keep together.... And I'm so glad that you got it. Wonderful! I think you really captured the staircase so well and made use of the available light!
    LiquidAir wrote:
    ...
    The rangers, somewhat impatiently, waited for me to take this shot as they shoed us off the top of the island:
    ...
    273880473_epHGU-Th.jpg
    What a truly wonderful capture of the city! Nicely done! thumb.gif

    I love all of your photos! clap.gifclapclap.gifclap
  • schmooschmoo Registered Users Posts: 8,468 Major grins
    edited April 3, 2008
    Alright, since Dan asked so nicely here are several (!!!) keepers of mine from that day.

    I haven't processed photos fer real in seemingly ages. My PP muscles are sore. :(:

    Starburst
    274405618_kdUbq-M-2.jpg

    Water and Wood
    274405864_fd4Sh-M-2.jpg

    Pieces of Time
    274405168_yzq3U-M-2.jpg

    Bird in Paradise
    274406131_4pBRW-L-2.jpg

    Follow the Rainbow (or, a very common abandonment shot)
    274405416_MoEbC-L-2.jpg

    Crossed
    274438718_ER8eU-L.jpg

    Leading Lines
    274437467_uAutk-M.jpg

    Sundown at the Lighthouse
    274437955_AvEXd-L.jpg

    Warden's House
    274438452_ga2hi-M.jpg

    I'm sure at some point I'll have more to say about the place, but right now I think the rest of the group covered it all. :D

    Thanks April for setting this whole thing up and we all must go shooting again. Maybe on a regular basis. mwink.gif
  • dadwtwinsdadwtwins Registered Users Posts: 804 Major grins
    edited April 3, 2008
    rolleyes1.gifI just realized your icon and how it perceives disgust at your pictures or posts.:giggle Was that done on purpose???rolleyes1.gif

    But no matter how humble you portray yourself, your composition, subject matter, ability to instill emotion into you photographs and even your PP is something to be marveledbowdown.gif

    Beautiful pictures schmoo, do ya think you will be able to convince Zweiblumen to post a few of his pics? I really want that masonic pic to see if I can find out what it meansthumb.gif

    Now only if i can convince Cal and April to post a few of their picsheadscratch.gif we could have a serious discussion of different techniques how photographers see the same subjects dramatically different.wings.gif
    My Homepage :thumb-->http://dthorp.smugmug.com
    My Photo Blog -->http://dthorpphoto.blogspot.com/
  • zweiblumenzweiblumen Registered Users Posts: 369 Major grins
    edited April 3, 2008
    dadwtwins wrote:
    Beautiful pictures schmoo, do ya think you will be able to convince Zweiblumen to post a few of his pics? I really want that masonic pic to see if I can find out what it meansthumb.gif

    I'm just behind on my processing... They should be done tomorrow. Patience! Or I won't ride any coat tails anymore! lol3.gif
    Travis
  • dadwtwinsdadwtwins Registered Users Posts: 804 Major grins
    edited April 3, 2008
    zweiblumen wrote:
    I'm just behind on my processing... They should be done tomorrow. Patience! Or I won't ride any coat tails anymore! lol3.gif

    :jawdropI feel so worthy and accepted all of a sudden. Thank youbowdown.gifclap
    My Homepage :thumb-->http://dthorp.smugmug.com
    My Photo Blog -->http://dthorpphoto.blogspot.com/
  • davevdavev Registered Users Posts: 3,118 Major grins
    edited April 4, 2008
    Really great shots.
    I wish that I'd have gone out to the rock when I was in San Fran last year.
    Maybe next time.
    dave.

    Basking in the shadows of yesterday's triumphs'.
  • aktseaktse Registered Users Posts: 1,928 Major grins
    edited April 4, 2008
    My plans for the evening included working on my taxes and did not consist of a session of photo editing. After looking at the photos posted, I knew that I had to work on them. I find this is a bit on the miraculous side of things since lately it’s been taking me about four months to post any photos. Dgrin’ers: Consider yourselves lucky! :D


    My only regret of this shot is that it is in IR and that Schmoo’s awesome hoodie is showing up white. It’s actually a grey/black! But Zweiblumen – now, that is a man with great taste! Look at the camera and lens combo! --- oh, and his hoody isn’t bad either! thumb.gif

    HOODIES (IR)
    274522235_cQWdW-M.jpg

    I always thought that Alcatraz would be a very difficult prison to be housed in due to its proximity to the San Francisco and Marin. From nearly every window, you can see life happening while you are incarcerated behind cold steel bars or while glacing through a dirty window.

    JUST BEYOND THE WINDOW
    274522152_jn5no-L.jpg

    And you are locked up, day in and day out, and with knowledge that the outside world is just beyond a windowsill.

    SO CLOSE
    274522502_whdvR-M.jpg

    And if you’re lucky enough to take a walk outside, you constantly reminded of the life that you are giving up

    FREEDOM
    274522061_QxEB9-L.jpg

    And if you listen carefully, you’ll hear the sounds of the city, the honking of the cars, the chitter-chatter of a party. And if you take a deep breath and hold it, you can taste the home made dinner coming out of the oven as the aromas linger on your taste buds. And can you feel the energy of people enjoying the daily normality of what is considered life

    JUST ANOTHER NIGHT
    274522107_uTb7H-L.jpg

    But at the end of the day, you are locked up with only the tastes of freedom lingering on your senses.

    BEHIND BARS
    274522526_9gVXK-M.jpg

    Or, if you’re held in the basement… your soul is slowly sucked away and you quickly lose track of time and only have the scratches you etch into the wall as a reminder that time has slowly passed.

    COUNTING
    274522019_aMkqQ-L.jpg

    Surrounded by concrete and rusted steel, you don’t know which direction leads out

    ENDLESS PATH
    274522597_9dfYk-M.jpg

    The remnants of the Native American occupation in 1969 still remain on the rock.

    OCCUPIED
    274522387_roCxa-M.jpg

    GRAFFITI
    274522560_7foC8-L.jpg

    Thank you so much for coming with me and sharing a night at the rock. It was such a privilege to shoot with people with so much talent. I was completely in awe of everyone…. You all are amazing!

    My only question… When can we do it again? :smo
  • ian408ian408 Administrators Posts: 21,938 moderator
    edited April 4, 2008
    Some very nice stuff added to the thread!

    I can't imagine what it must have been like for inmates to be so close yet
    so far from freedom.
    Moderator Journeys/Sports/Big Picture :: Need some help with dgrin?
  • dadwtwinsdadwtwins Registered Users Posts: 804 Major grins
    edited April 4, 2008
    Thank you so much for coming with me and sharing a night at the rock. It was such a privilege to shoot with people with so much talent. I was completely in awe of everyone…. You all are amazing!

    My only question… When can we do it again? :smo

    The feeling is mutual April. You are the one that set this up with such short notice and put together a group of photographers that have vastly different shooting styles.

    What fun to see this thread develope and to my delightful surprise see the differences of photoraphy styles. clap.gif

    Great series April. I love the filthy window shot. Very poignant point of view from a prisoners perspective.thumb.gif
    My Homepage :thumb-->http://dthorp.smugmug.com
    My Photo Blog -->http://dthorpphoto.blogspot.com/
  • Scott_QuierScott_Quier Registered Users Posts: 6,524 Major grins
    edited April 4, 2008
    aktse wrote:
    Yep.... mine will be posted, but my photos look like snapshots compared to the ones from Dan and LiquidAir. They are truly amazing photographers bowdown.gifbowbowdown.gifbow and are masters of the craft both in seeing/setting up the shot and in the post work that afterwards. And I havne't seen the photos from schmoo, Zweiblumen or Cal, but I know they will be amazing. It was an honor to shoot with such amazing, talented people.
    April - I think you need to re-evaluate your photography! Looking at all the photos in this thread, I don't see a single looser - they are all so amazing! Relax about it - you have some real talent and can be very proud of the work you've posted.

    I have to second the comment about the dirty window shot. That is simply amazing. And the one of the GGB - I think your's is better than the first one in this thread! So there! thumb.gif
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