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proof colors in PS RAW editor?
marlinspike
Registered Users Posts: 2,095 Major grins
Is there a way to use proof colors in the RAW conversion editor of PS CS2? It's kinda a pain doing the guess and check routine (my proof colors are very different...I wish I could just get PS to use the same color profile as the rest of windows without having to press ctrl+y).
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Nope.
Author "Color Management for Photographers"
http://www.digitaldog.net/
There's no way to turn off color management in Photoshop! You can setup a custom proof setup to simulate what an image would look like outside an ICC aware application (Monitor RGB, sRGB, Mac RGB) but to do so, you have to use color management!
Author "Color Management for Photographers"
http://www.digitaldog.net/
Wait a sec...what profile is "the rest of Windows" using? I seriously doubt that there is just one, or any, that you could latch on to. The problem is not for Adobe to dumb down to chaos, but for Windows to smarten up to consistency. The closest you'll get is to calibrate your monitor, set Camera Raw to sRGB, and get back to work.
Its not. It simply sending the RGB numbers to the display.
Author "Color Management for Photographers"
http://www.digitaldog.net/
Well, the thing is this, I can't find my eye-one display 2 (presumably I left it back at my parents' home, but I don't know when I'll next return, probably not until next Christmas), and the rest of windows, perhaps by chances, matches the prints from my color profiled printer almost exactly (my screen is ever so slightly brighter than the prints, but the colors are dead on). On the other hand, whatever profile PS is using is grossly inaccurate. Just for a sample, 0R 0G 255B is purple in PS.
Inaccurate PS colors are corrected if I do proof colors with the proof setup set to monitor rgb. When I go to windows (this is Vista Business FWIW) color management, there is an icc profile loaded called "wide viewing angle & High density FlexView Display (default)". (I have one of the last laptop flexview displays, w00t). "Use my settings for this device" is NOT checked.
So, what do I need to do to make PS look like chaos which just happens to be fairly true?
You need to change your thinking here. The previews are NOT inaccurate, they are accurate. Using Monitor RGB just makes them inaccurate to match the other inaccurate previews. It solves nothing. Just as cranking up the luminance control on your display while viewing a dark image does nothing to correct the problem.
Author "Color Management for Photographers"
http://www.digitaldog.net/
No, see, the non-profiled world of my computer matches almost exactly (the only difference being that my monitor shows things just a hair lighter) the prints made by my printer which is color profiled. The same is true of PS when I have proof colors selected. When proof colors are not selected in PS, the image I get is not even close. Blue is purple, yellow is green, up is down, it's borderline surreal.
So, someone please tell me how to make PS like the rest of my computer's world, or offer to lend me their eye one display 2 since I can't find my own (lol).
I know it's not ideal to go around with no profile, but I need something to carry me over until the next time I return to my parents' home. It just so happens by luck that the non-profiled world of my computer is very very close to accurate. I want to get rid of this darn Salavador Dali color profile that PS is apparently using.
Maybe today. But a display is an unstable device that requires regular calibration and profiling, the profile is used by ICC aware applications. Plus you're not using Photoshop correctly nor at its capacity because you're not soft proofing (and you can't without color management).
Author "Color Management for Photographers"
http://www.digitaldog.net/
Or am I missing something here?
Mike Mattix
Tulsa, OK
"There are always three sides to every story. Yours, mine, and the truth" - Unknown
Keep in mind that families can be crazy and just trust me when I say having it shipped to me is not an option.
So, rather than lecture me on the things I already know about why I should have a profiled monitor, can someone just tell me what to do to make PS as unprofiled as the rest of Windows?
While I'm in the camp that thinks you should find a better answer to this dilemna, I'll attempt to answer your question anyway.
You cannot directly turn color management off in Photoshop. It will correct your colors according to the profile it finds in your system for your monitor. Further, Photoshop will look at the profile of your source document and pay attention to that. Non-color-managed apps ignore the profile of the source document completely. They just dump raw RGB values to the screen. So, there is no screen profile that will make all source profiles convert to the same thing as the non-color-managed apps. But, you could pick one source profile (say sRGB) and get a monitor profile that essentially told Photoshop that your monitor was already perfect sRGB so the amount of correction needed for the monitor was zero. It would call this a "null sRGB monitor profile".
Therefore, if you want the Photoshop display to look the same as apps that are doing no color management for sRGB images, you need something I this "null sRGB monitor profile" and you then need to tell Windows that that is your correct monitor profile. Photoshop will find it, use it and when it goes to correct your sRGB colors for proper display on your monitor, the correction needed will be zero. Wala, Photoshop color now looks as unmanaged as the rest of the apps in Windows.
So, where does one get a "null sRGB monitor profile"? That I don't know. Maybe some Google searching would turn something up.
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No. It IS showing you the RGB values correctly (like Photoshop) and like Photoshop, there's no way not to use color management.
Author "Color Management for Photographers"
http://www.digitaldog.net/
What's wrong is that's not how ICC aware and non ICC aware applications work:
ICC Aware application. Examine the display profile and the document profile. Use Display Using Monitor Compensation to produce correct previews of numbers. This requires two profiles: Document and Display.
Non ICC Aware application. Send RGB numbers to the display. Application doesn't know the color space of the image (it sends the numbers without Display Using Monitor Compensation) nor does it see or understand the display profile. NO profiles being used.
There is a color look up table that's loaded by the profile and non ICC aware applications ARE affected in just these current settings and their effect on the display. But they don't understand the profiles in any other way. The previews are incorrect.
Author "Color Management for Photographers"
http://www.digitaldog.net/
You don't have to do anything. Its a system display profile, all ICC aware applications will access and use it. You NEVER set the RGB working space with this profile!
Author "Color Management for Photographers"
http://www.digitaldog.net/
So what's the deal with my monitor displaying extremely inaccurate colors in PS, even when I set this profile to be the default in Windows Color Management?
Photoshop looks at the display profile to build a preview. If you provide the wrong one, it might match another application that is not ICC color managed, doesn't mean its accurate.
IF you want to see accurate RGB numbers, you need an ICC aware application. It needs an accurate (well behaved) profile of your display that reflects its current behavior (displays are unstable devices). It also needs the scale of the RGB numbers (its color space).
The one way Photoshop could show you inaccurate colors is if the display profile is wrong (or bad).
Author "Color Management for Photographers"
http://www.digitaldog.net/
So does the "test" of setting the display profile as the color space not prove that the profile is good? One thing I'm thinking is perhaps this indicates that I've double profiled (i.e. I perhaps made the profile on the screen that was already profiled and so that what I have to double up by making the profile the working space for it to be accurate?)
It does not. There are two operations going on. One is a LUT in the profile being applied which does control what you see in both ICC and non ICC aware applications (note, its often best for all but the high end LCD's to be calibrated such that this LUT is doing as little as possible since all you gain is banding using only 8-bits).
ICC aware applications care about what the profile tells it about the state of the display, LUT not withstanding. In fact that's HOW we can produce proper color appearance in ICC aware applications without altering the display with a LUT. The compensation is happening at 21 bit precision using the Adobe Color Engine (ACE). None of this is happening outside an ICC aware application.
There ARE ways to get an idea if the profile is good:
http://www.ppmag.com/reviews/200412_rodneycm.pdf
Author "Color Management for Photographers"
http://www.digitaldog.net/
Can anybody help me here? It's really annoying to have to set the monitor profile as the color space to get accurate colors when I plan to upload them to smugmug which IIRC uses sRGB. FWIW, when opening a file in CS2 output from Lightroom, it asks me what I want to do with the color space (use embedded srgb, convert to the working space, discard).
If I select use embedded, I get wrong colors.
If I select convert to working space, I get correct colors
If I select convert to working space and then set proof colors to sRGB with preserve RGB numbers checked, I get those same wrong colors I get when I select use embedded, but if I uncheck preserve RGB numbers and instead say relative colorimetric and use black point compression I get correct colors.
Stop right there. That's not a way to get "accurate" colors, ever. The very idea of modern ICC color management, seen throughout all Adobe products, is the display conditions are divorced from the editing space (working space). Your display profile is ONLY used for previews of documents to provide the correct previews of those color numbers.
This tells me you exported the LR documents in sRGB (use embedded sRGB). The preview of that document in Photoshop should match Lightroom's.
What color space do you want to render copies out of Lightroom in?
Author "Color Management for Photographers"
http://www.digitaldog.net/
I want my things to be rendered in sRGB, however, if I use sRGB as my color space, PS is CLEARLY showing incorrect colors. 0R 0G 255B will look purple. I'll edit it a photo and the colors will look weird on my laptop, but on other color calibrated computers the colors will look correct (as they do in prints I make with my calibrated printer). I can make the colors in PS CS2 LOOK correct by setting my monitor profile as my color space, but while this looks correct obviously it is a hopeless technique.
I know my monitor takes to calibration because I tried the LUT Tester and it worked. Also, when I calibrate my monitor it clearly makes a difference in how things look...except in PS CS2. It's as if within the PS CS2 window the calibration I make with my i1D2 is being ignored.
I'm in Vista Business 32-bit btw.
The colors of the thumbnails for my image files (i.e. the things I double click to open the image file in PS) are correct. However, if I right click that thumbnail and select "set as desktop" it will appear with incorrect colors as my desktop.
No, you think they are correct. Its far more likely they are not color managed. The one application that should, when setup correctly, preview the numbers correctly is Photoshop.
You either have a hosed display profile or something else that's off here. But assuming you've got a good display profile that Photoshop is seeing and using (something you can check in your Color Settings under RGB working space), then everything else may look better, but its wrong! Your desktop is not color managed, assuming you're not on a Mac. Vista is a color management nightmare FWIW.
Author "Color Management for Photographers"
http://www.digitaldog.net/
Ignore what I set about image colors when the image is set to desktop...I had done some strange things with the image I was using. I have made a new test image
OK, here is what I know:
-My printer is properly profiled.
-0R 0G 255B should look blue.
- my monitor responds to calibration as verified by the LUT tester
- I calibrated it using an eye-one d2
- If I make an image out of 0R 0G 255B, and the color space is sRGB, it will look purple in PS CS2, its thumbnail will look blue, and if I set it to be my desktop background my desktop will be blue
- If I take that same image but set the proof colors to be the monitor profile and turn on proof colors, it will now look blue in PS
- if I take that same original image and convert the color space to my monitor profile, nothing happens
- if I take that same original image and assign the profile to be my monitor profile, it will now look blue in PS
I also know that when I show an image here (say of a blue car) and ask people what color it is they say blue, on my desktop it looks blue, but in PS CS2 it looks purple.
This is a classic example of the other app's showing you the numbers incorrectly but preferability. Photoshop is showing the current RGB numbers correctly (what those numbers are or should be in your case is still questionable). It sounds like the documents are not in sRGB or are tagged incorrectly. Something is not set correctly or there are some conversions or assignments being made somewhere in this chain.
The soft proofing you used illustrates that color management isn't being properly applied to the current RGB values with the assumed color space. When you applied your display profile, you kind of used Photoshop to show you what those numbers would look like untagged outside an ICC aware application.
Author "Color Management for Photographers"
http://www.digitaldog.net/
Hmmm...here's some more info that may help.
If I use the eye dropper in PS CS2 (when the image is in srgb color space) it verifies 0R 0G 255B (well...it says 254B for some reason) even though it looks purple. When I open the image in lightroom (where it looks purple too), it says 41.1%R 18.3%G and 93.8%B
I'm so very confused :cry