Softproofing in a smugmug/EZprint workflow

gandalf44

Ok, I have read through the majority of threads here on softproofing, and watched through Andrew Rodney's excellent tutorial on Digital Dog. I think I get what monitor calibration is (my Spyder Eye3Pro arrived today), and softproofing in Photoshop CS3. I don't have a lightbox, since I am strictly a hobbyist, and do not plan to sell any pictures I take, but I am keenly interested in accurate color representation from monitor --> print, with reasonable expectations :wink

My question on this color managment workflow is specifically with smugmug for online viewing, and using smugmugs EZPrint service for generation 95% of my prints (I have a HiTouch 640PS for 4x6 one-off prints at home, not concerned too much with that). I had been using AdobeRGB 1998 in Lightroom, along with Adobe RGB 1998 in Photoshop. Now, I will this weekend have a calibrated monitor with my new Spyder Eye3Pro.

Given that EZPrints "expects" a sRGB jpg, and assuming I set my prints to use TrueColor setting in smugmug ordering (since I will have softproofed with EZPrints ICC profile), once I am ready to save out jpgs either in Lightroom or Photoshop, I assume I save out with sRGB? Should I even bother with AdobeRGB 1998 as my working space, assuming always using EZPrints service to print, and smugmug.com to display?

This is the final confusing point for me...

-gandalf44

arodney

gandalf44 wrote:

Given that EZPrints "expects" a sRGB jpg, and assuming I set my prints to use TrueColor setting in smugmug ordering (since I will have softproofed with EZPrints ICC profile), once I am ready to save out jpgs either in Lightroom or Photoshop, I assume I save out with sRGB? Should I even bother with AdobeRGB 1998 as my working space, assuming always using EZPrints service to print, and smugmug.com to display?

Just convert the master images into sRGB for this print service and leave the masters in the wider gamut space for future printing needs. Trust me, some day sRGB will go the way of the dodo bird when the vast majority of users have Adobe RGB (1998) (or some wider gamut standard color space) behaving displays. This entire sRGB workflow is basically an excuse for lazy color management practices for those cranking out huge volumes of output. Their devices absolutely do not produce sRGB!!! Don't funnel your important data into a color space that reduces so much data you can and will likely use in the future.

gandalf44

arodney wrote:

Just convert the master images into sRGB for this print service and leave the masters in the wider gamut space for future printing needs. Trust me, some day sRGB will go the way of the dodo bird when the vast majority of users have Adobe RGB (1998) (or some wider gamut standard color space) behaving displays. This entire sRGB workflow is basically an excuse for lazy color management practices for those cranking out huge volumes of output. Their devices absolutely do not produce sRGB!!! Don't funnel your important data into a color space that reduces so much data you can and will likely use in the future.

So when I am softproofing, and using ezprints-2007.icc, I will see a representation of what the EZPrint printers (Fuji I think) will give me. And, my current CS3 working space is Adobe RGB 1998. Once I adjust the softproof'd image to my liking, I would then save out as sRGB.

So my last question is, if I am softproofing with ezprint-2007.icc, with a working color gamut of Adobe RGB 1998, make changes, save out to sRGB for upload to smugmug, will I have to deal with FURTHER gamut loss in some areas over and above what I saw in the softproof? What I mean is, before I softproof with ezprint-2007.icc, should I convert (duplicate image, let's say) to sRGB, THEN softproof?

-gandalf44

arodney

gandalf44 wrote:

So when I am softproofing, and using ezprints-2007.icc, I will see a representation of what the EZPrint printers (Fuji I think) will give me. And, my current CS3 working space is Adobe RGB 1998. Once I adjust the softproof'd image to my liking, I would then save out as sRGB.

Yes.

So my last question is, if I am softproofing with ezprint-2007.icc, with a working color gamut of Adobe RGB 1998, make changes, save out to sRGB for upload to smugmug, will I have to deal with FURTHER gamut loss in some areas over and above what I saw in the softproof? What I mean is, before I softproof with ezprint-2007.icc, should I convert (duplicate image, let's say) to sRGB, THEN softproof?

The entire color management workflow here is half baked. They provide a profile to soft proof but don't want you to use it. That's rather silly. The way it should be done is, the current working space is based on the best possible archive for the image going out to any device.

You load the soft proof, make a duplicate (that's the before reference), edit in the working space on the soft proofed copy such that it looks closer to the original. You now have an output specific set of edits based on that output profile/device/rendering intent. You convert using this profile, you control the rendering intent here, based on a preferred soft proof (this is image specific). The new RGB numbers in the output color space just get sent directly to the output device. Its real simple. This idea of using a profile to soft proof, then not using it to convert and edit based on the soft proof is half-assed color management.

gandalf44

arodney wrote:

.... You convert using this profile, you control the rendering intent here, based on a preferred soft proof (this is image specific).....

SO when you say convert, what do you mean?

Save with the ezprint-2007.icc? Or something else? I guess I am asking for specifically in the CS3 workflow, once your make your edits from the softproof duplicate, what exactly to you save out/convert?

arodney

gandalf44 wrote:

SO when you say convert, what do you mean?

Convert to the output profile provided that is supposed to describe the print process.

gandalf44

arodney wrote:

Convert to the output profile provided that is supposed to describe the print process.

Thanks Andrew, appreicate the feedback and further clarification

gandalf44

Actually, given this feedback, should the smugmug instructions on softproofing/using EZPrints ICC profile be re-written?

This is why I was confused, as those help sections tell you simply use sRGB! Andrew, your explanations makes more logical sense to me, but that's not what smugmug is saying.

Not sure who is reading or who to contact, but I can't imagine I am the only one confused on this (not color management in general, just with EZprints and smugmug).

jfriend

gandalf44 wrote:

Actually, given this feedback, should the smugmug instructions on softproofing/using EZPrints ICC profile be re-written?

This is why I was confused, as those help sections tell you simply use sRGB! Andrew, your explanations makes more logical sense to me, but that's not what smugmug is saying.

Not sure who is reading or who to contact, but I can't imagine I am the only one confused on this (not color management in general, just with EZprints and smugmug).

I don't think I understand what advice Andrew is giving you or what I do understand doesn't seem correct for use with Smugmug, so let me clarify.

When using Smugmug, your images MUST be in sRGB. Smugmug is designed to use the same image for web viewing as printing and since today's installed base of browsers (except Safari) only really handle sRGB, all Smugmug images must be in sRGB. That means that even images that you want to order prints of must be uploaded in sRGB. The Lab's software will take the sRGB image and print it properly.

So, now if you want to soft proof and see what your image will look like when printing, you use the EZPrints ICC profile in an app like Photoshop for doing that. You do NOT convert to that profile. You simply view a simulation in Photoshop (that's what soft proofing is). With your image in sRGB, you tweak how that simulation looks until you like it and then you upload that sRGB image to Smugmug.

There are other labs that let you upload an image directly for printing that will let you submit the image in their printer's profile as Andrew described. Being able to convert directly to the profile yourself gives you a little more control (over things like rendering intent), but that is not the way Smugmug works. Those labs who allow that do not offer web viewing services like Smugmug and thus don't need the image to be in sRGB.

It's a little innacurate of Andrew to call Smugmug's design choice "half-baked". They chose to offer a service early on that offers web viewing and printing from the same image. That appeals to a large cross section of the population because it's simple and combines the benefits of both web viewing and print ordering in the same service. That design choice means that images must be uploaded in a color space that displays properly in the installed base of browsers. That means images can't be uploaded in the printer's profile. For the majority of today's browsers, they must be sRGB.

Smugmug is not trying to be a professional print lab. If you know what you are doing you can get very high quality prints through Smugmug (using sRGB), but if you want every single knob of control, then you should work directly with a pro lab yourself (which doesn't do web viewing) and then you can control things like rendering intent too.

arodney

jfriend wrote:

It's a little innacurate of Andrew to call Smugmug's design choice "half-baked". They chose to offer a service early on that offers web viewing and printing from the same image.

Substitute my calibrated display and the same is true on this end too. Its half backed because it only uses part of the color management architecture built into Photoshop for the best possible color management.