My version of the "DSLR vs P&S" debate
First, hi from a new (Smugger? Mugger? SM'er? Grinner? 
). It was "features" like the warm community, and Don & team's tireless customer advocacy that made me sign up just days ago over Fl*ckr.
While this is an oft maligned debate, I know that I personally enjoy and benefit from each person's unique perspective, so I thought i'd throw my hat into the forum ring here with a long post (also replicated on my blog).
[I might as well jump in here while I still have time to return the D40 in my hot hands.]
Recently I picked up a Nikon D40 DSLR to "replace" my Casio EX Z750 P&S. The Casio has served me pretty well, but I wouldn't say I ever had more than a handful of shots out of hundreds that "wow'ed" me, based simply on their detail and image quality (counting out artistic design/prowess here). I really enjoy the MPEG4 movie mode which gives me pretty decent 640x480 video in relatively small file size.
I'm a gear head in most aspects, but in terms of photography SO FAR, I'm not a huge fan of dial twiddling; so moving up to a DSLR I am looking for simply the best photo quality vs powerful control, where quality to me seems to be:
The D40 has opened my eyes to how much sharper a photo can be, but I fear most the "lug factor": a bag, two lenses (maybe one to compromise), and caps/misc., versus "slips into my pocket".
Right now I'm going through my library of older photos and trying to gauge "would I have carried a DSLR to his event?". So far I'm running about 60-70% if I stretch my imagination, but still have a significant number of P&S-only opportunities (business travel for example where it wouldn't be acceptable to lug a camera bag around to dinner, etc.).
So, for someone who is CURRENTLY (note my emphasis) still learning the "art", shooting mostly people and scenery, and that means needing to be able to be ready at ANY TIME for a photo, it pretty much seems to mean owning both a P&S and a DSLR. Not to mention, video recording (of which I do probably 30% of the time when carrying P&S) is not yet a reality for DSLR, and furthermore it seems like interesting video opportunities also seem to come up in "non-bag-worthy" situations! (keep your minds out of the gutter here ;-)
The good news is the DSLR doesn't seem like it will be obsoleted for years, as the still-hot-selling 6mp D40 shows. For important family events, and "events" that you want to remember forever, it seems like it will remain a great companion "IF". My "if's" are:
So, I'm not sure there's a resolution (har har) here. I still want (do we ever really NEED?) a replacement camera (or camera(s)), to give me the following:
Comments warmly welcomed!
(also posted to my blog at http://www.richardgoodwin.com/wp/2008/04/15/the-old-should-i-buy-a-dslr-or-point-and-shoot-camera-debate-part-xxxviii/ )
). It was "features" like the warm community, and Don & team's tireless customer advocacy that made me sign up just days ago over Fl*ckr.While this is an oft maligned debate, I know that I personally enjoy and benefit from each person's unique perspective, so I thought i'd throw my hat into the forum ring here with a long post (also replicated on my blog).
[I might as well jump in here while I still have time to return the D40 in my hot hands.]
Recently I picked up a Nikon D40 DSLR to "replace" my Casio EX Z750 P&S. The Casio has served me pretty well, but I wouldn't say I ever had more than a handful of shots out of hundreds that "wow'ed" me, based simply on their detail and image quality (counting out artistic design/prowess here). I really enjoy the MPEG4 movie mode which gives me pretty decent 640x480 video in relatively small file size.
I'm a gear head in most aspects, but in terms of photography SO FAR, I'm not a huge fan of dial twiddling; so moving up to a DSLR I am looking for simply the best photo quality vs powerful control, where quality to me seems to be:
- color accuracy and saturation
- sharpness of of detail/focus
- depth of field/bokeh which seems to really accent "people shots"
The D40 has opened my eyes to how much sharper a photo can be, but I fear most the "lug factor": a bag, two lenses (maybe one to compromise), and caps/misc., versus "slips into my pocket".
Right now I'm going through my library of older photos and trying to gauge "would I have carried a DSLR to his event?". So far I'm running about 60-70% if I stretch my imagination, but still have a significant number of P&S-only opportunities (business travel for example where it wouldn't be acceptable to lug a camera bag around to dinner, etc.).
So, for someone who is CURRENTLY (note my emphasis) still learning the "art", shooting mostly people and scenery, and that means needing to be able to be ready at ANY TIME for a photo, it pretty much seems to mean owning both a P&S and a DSLR. Not to mention, video recording (of which I do probably 30% of the time when carrying P&S) is not yet a reality for DSLR, and furthermore it seems like interesting video opportunities also seem to come up in "non-bag-worthy" situations! (keep your minds out of the gutter here ;-)
The good news is the DSLR doesn't seem like it will be obsoleted for years, as the still-hot-selling 6mp D40 shows. For important family events, and "events" that you want to remember forever, it seems like it will remain a great companion "IF". My "if's" are:
- if I can just justify the cost (after adding the 55-200mm to be my "day to day" lens (not too close at 55, decent zoom it looks like at 200mm....btw what is that in "ZOOMRATINGx" in regular/bridge cams?)
- if I can get over feeling self conscious about carrying it; at my test event I got tons of "paparazzi" comments which didn't help. BTW, you can see those photos in my <a href="http://rgoodwin.smugmug.com/gallery/4715727_ADTc2#279069109_fQQYA">SmugMug gallery here.</a> (comments welcome!)
So, I'm not sure there's a resolution (har har) here. I still want (do we ever really NEED?) a replacement camera (or camera(s)), to give me the following:
- better than 3x zoom
- image stabilization
- better movie quality (720p in a compact file format ideally)
- good low light performance
- pocketable (jeans pocket, not man-bag )
- good sharp pictures with accurate and vibrant saturation (and low noise)
Comments warmly welcomed!
(also posted to my blog at http://www.richardgoodwin.com/wp/2008/04/15/the-old-should-i-buy-a-dslr-or-point-and-shoot-camera-debate-part-xxxviii/ )
0
Comments
A thought: why do you have to choose? Or, could you chose on a trip by trip basis? did you get rid of your old camera? use it when the bulk factor forbids you for carrying the slr.
For an in between camera, you might look at something like http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=8510989&type=product&id=1186005750966
Best Buy calls these Advanced cameras. Not point and shoot. Not DSLR. Advanced. Pocketable if your jeans are not too tight.
If you are not sure if a DSLR can take pics that are THAT much better, look around at some of the shots on this forum. many are amazing. Look at these: http://www.dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=90299&highlight=wedding
Las Cruces Photographer / Las Cruces Wedding Photographer
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www.ivarborst.nl & smugmug
This is where P&S fail today: they have very, very small image sensors, and pair that, typically, with very small lenses. It just isn't possible, today, to get great dynamic range, and image sharpness with this. You will notice fuzzy photos if you enlarge the photo much beyond 4x6 size, and be limited to bright locations. Some cameras get close, and we even see a APS-C sensor P&S (Sigma), but it is large for a pocket. Maybe P&S makers will abandon the megapixel race for a image quality race, but I think that race is firmly in the DSLR camp now.
My recommendation is that you likely need both a P&S and a DSLR. Use the P&S when you want to take video or just want a few shots for memories. Use the DSLR when you want to create artwork, or nice prints for the walls of the house, or just have fun with photography.
I have an older Sony camcorder, that offered both video as well as a 'photo' mode, with included memory stick. But even though the lens was good for video, it wasn't all that great at photos, and switching between modes took forever, where I usually missed the shot. I never used the feature that sold me on this model of camera. But I have enjoyed the video.
josh: i definitely don't question that they can take better pictures, even OOC.
ivar: Definitely a possibility I've considered; an "ultra zoom" with movie for example (at least 10x). Do these typically have bigger sensors than the P&S? My jeans are generally tight, but not because I wear them like a rock star; I just need to slim down :P
cmason: My gut just tells me that when the advanced users are feeling the walls of a technology, a company will tend to come to the forefront to remedy things and disrupt the market. My gut must be good for something!
(edited: had to account for another great response while I was posting ;-) )
Again, "both" is a great answer. My wife keeps a P&S in her purse so when we are together, we ALWAYS have it with us. that is nice for the convenience. But, the pictures are not that satisfying, so if we are going any where where we know we want to take photos, I lug the bag.
Las Cruces Photographer / Las Cruces Wedding Photographer
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Perhaps you are right. BUT, remember, anyone who posts here, are most likely well outside of the bulk of the market. Most cameras today are bought due to size, color and price, not because of the quality of the image, the sensitivity of the sensor, or the quality of the lens. I am not sure the P&S market would be disrupted by changes that are valued by a different market: the amateur/semi-pro photography market.
Everyone in my extended family are absolutely delighted in the photos that come out of their P&S cameras, and frame up 4x6 prints all over the house. To me, they are nice snapshots, but I can pick apart image issues, composition issues, etc, and I would not print or frame most of them. I am not in the same market, nor do I have the same needs as others when it comes to photography.
It sounds like you are on the 'cusp' of falling out of the P&S market and into the amateur/semi-pro photography market. (but firmly in the P&S market for video..consider what a semi-pro video nut would say about your P&S avi's !?). I just don't see evidence of the P&S buyers seeking things that I think are important in a camera, instead, they buy a DSLR.
Sony built a number of cameras that crossed this boundry, including the amazing R-1, but found that the trade-offs, especially the lack of interchangable lenses, didn't meet any market need, and went out and bought Minolta. Maybe they were too ahead of the time, who knows
What an awesome discussion!
I was just poking around on the DP1, and it sounds like it could represent the concept of the transition I was speaking of: someone pushing the boundaries to get DSLR "quality" down to something more manageable. It's not mass market ready clearly (price, size), but the work will pave the way (and begin to set expectations) for improvements to follow. (If you squint your eyes when you read this, it almost sounds like I know what I'm talking about!).
I really relish your replies, and what an affirmation that the community is a part of the SM experience!
(very small side question: does SM have a "search by camera" feature like Flickr?)
I think the G9 fills the bill on this list
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I find myself reading G9 and Fuji F100d reviews over and over, all day long as well ;-) (While working furiously of course!)
The G9's overall quality bests the Fuji, while the Fuji appears to be the ultra compact "low light champion".
~2" in my pocket starts to become fairly intrusive, but could potentially be managed I suppose. The video quality at 480p seems decent but not great.
Darn you Scott
dak.smugmug.com
For me, knowing the capabilities of the gear, I jsut get frustrated when using a P&S as I know what can be done with a proper DSLR--and again I don't mind the bulk & really don't give a rat's behind what other people think. I most frequently get the paparazzi jokes from friends, but pretty much ignore them as we all know they'd miss my photos if I didn't do my thing. Often a quick example of what the DSLR can do that the "superior" P&S with more bitty pixels cannot is enough to quiet the ignorant (think 5+FPS blasts in low light
Regarding the OP's wish list, a few comments. I don't care for lenses much greater than 3x zoom. More and more compromises are made for the wider range. Note that the most respected Canon zooms are about 2.5x-3x zoom. I could care less about movie capability. If I want video, I'll do it right & get a video camera, there are more and more really nice and amazingly small ones out there. Many can be easily tossed in with a DSLR rig. IMHO the pocketable and low light performance requirements are mutually exclusive. They require exactly opposite physical traits in the sensor & lens; I go with expanded capability over pocket-sized.
A final thought. With the SLR form factor, I just do not understand the one-lens-for-everything desire. The whole point of having the changeable lens design is you get to have a lens optimized (more-or-less) for the current job at hand. When the optical requirements change, you change lenses to one suited for the new task. The whole point of going with a bulkier, more complex, more expensive SLR kit is hte supoerior results given over the one-size-fits-all approach of the P&S. At least that's my take.
http://www.chrislaudermilkphoto.com/
My Photos
Thoughts on photographing a wedding, How to post a picture, AF Microadjustments?, Light Scoop
Equipment List - Check my profile
A dSLR will not fix a lack of composition skills, etc. A dSLR will however give you much more creative control, so if that is something you are looking for after shooting with a P&S, then a dSLR would be something to look into.
There is no reason to give up a P&S when you move to a dSLR. Both cameras have there time and place. As has been mentioned, a large percentage of the people posting here most likely have both a dSLR and a P&S.
I don't see an answer to your zoom rating question. Your 55-200mm lens would be classed at about 3.6X zoom (to calculate for any lens, take the high number and divide by the low number 200/55 = 3.63). The P&S zoom rating isn't something you can use to equally compare camera to camera as a camera with a 10-36mm lens would have the exact same zoom rating as your 55-200mm lens. Also in the P&S world there is the issue of 35mm equivalency that you need to read the fine print to find for a specific camera.
Thanks BB, that actually finally clicked earlier this morn (all the typing must have knocked something loose!). It's like saying 1-100 is a 100% increase, but so is 100-200...the % is meaningless.
What I am equating in my head now is a rough "linear" association of zooms when comparing: i.e. a 6x zoom in a P&S is roughly equivalent to a ~20something to a 200something (in a single lens) or 3x+3x (if you have two lenses), if you temporarily don't count the "35mm equivalency" issue. (someone shoot me if I'm too far off and of course the numbers will vary by camera.)
I think 6x is probably sufficient a lot of the time, 10x or 18x being fun (in a P&S) or gigantic (in SLR). Of course I'm just speculating on my own needs.
I have 2 P&S cams, one that slips in my pocket no matter how tight my jeans are (Canon SD200) and one that is a much better camera that sometimes I have to carry in a small purse/laptopbag/whatever i'm carrying and sometimes fits in my pocket (Panasonic LX2). I use both cameras for different reasons, but I always have one with me. I have the Canon 40D gear which I take with me when I know I'm going to be taking some real photos or going to an important event. That one never fits in my pocket ;-)
As far as video goes..well, both my P&S cams have video capabilities with sound. I've tried it out, but it really seems more like a gimmick. Could be helpful in a video emergency (Rodney King situation, etc). However, being one of those "video people" I get angry when I have to watch the splotchy over compressed uneditable video that a still camera produces. So I have 4 video cameras for different uses, just as I have 3 still cameras for different uses.
DSLR is a great thing to have, so is a P&S. I prefer to have the most manual controls possible on my P&S so that I can tell it what I want to do, which is why I went with the LX2 over the newer Canon Elph series. Same issue in the video side, one P&S video camera, but the rest have manual controls. Perhaps I just want too much control.
I officiall take back what i said about this post not getting much response.
Las Cruces Photographer / Las Cruces Wedding Photographer
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Both.
I'm sorry, but my beloved SLR doesn't fit in my pocket and does not support photography when all I want to have with me is a jacket. I'll always have the SLR and also a good, RAW-capable P&S.
Anyone doubting whether a P&S is worth choosing over an SLR on a pro assignment should read today's Strobist blog "On Assignment" post.
Wow, those were some amazing shots, especially the one "looking up" at her. W/o derailing the thread, what is the key to that "look"? (Besides lighting). Sounds like a fast shutter speed (crispness), aperture settings (lowest possible number?) and a rabbit's foot?
I'm not sure how I can convince my wife I need a G9 AND a DSLR to replace the z750 tho...
I feel your pain
I've a Nikon D300 - a fairly serious camera, but also carries some serious weight penalties and won't slip into a pocket easily...
so I picked up a Canon G9. That goes into most casual coat pockets, and gives pretty good results for a P&S. But it won't fit into a suit pocket w/o bulging...
so I picked up a Panasonic DMC-FX12, very small, will fit in a dress shirt pocket and with the Leica lens gives better photos than any cell phone camera.
The camera I carry depends on where I'm going and how I'm dressed. The D300 gives absolutely the best quality - but you have to shoot with what you have in hand at the moment and a D300 simply isn't appropriate business attire (at least where I work).
Carry the Nikon where you may, carry the Casio where you must? I think you'll find a role for each.
HTH
A few years ago ......I believe it was American Photographer that interviewed a photojournalist that was traveling the world doing stories like the war in Serbia nd such.......he carried 2 Oly P/S....one wide and one long and he swore by them......by the time I was interested in a digital P/S they were no longr made:cry........
so I made my choice for a Konica Minolta A2.....it had everyting I wanted....a 28-200 equiv lens.....Cf card not SD.......RAW CAPTURE.......8mp...........and then I found this really cool feature....a true floating focus point.....not picking one of 10 -15 little stationary red dots....but it is movable over the whole viewing area......Okay I had my P/S for MC travels....then I bought 2 KM 7D's and sold the KM A2 and with in 2 weeks I was wishing I had the A2 back especially for landscape and Artsy shots where I need to focus between to things rally close together....it took almost a year to find one that I trusted the seller but I now how my A2 and 2 KM7D's and all 3 travel with me in car and the A2 goes by it self mostly on MC unless I am going after wildlife then 1 KM7D with 70-210 f2.8 goes also.........
I truly see a need for BOTH..................
That might have been this guy.
Of course, in both that case and the Strobist case, the P&S just happened to fit the bill. Wide angle and deep depth of field was OK for that work. If they were into shooting gymnastics, motorbikes, or supermodel head shots, the P&Ss probably would not have cut it. But as long as you pick tools that can meet the requirements of the job, you can pick any tools you want...
http://joves.smugmug.com/
If not the same guy...it is the same cameras.
One of my favorite family photos was taken with a point a shoot. We were holed up in an hotel in Colorado Springs due to a huge snow storm that had us in the hotel for 2 solid days. We walked over to eat at a resturaunt next door and my wife pulled out her p & s and captured this. Her little Sony is always in her purse.
One bit of technicality on this too. If I had had my Canon, unless I was really thinking, I would likely have messed this up as the depth of field needs to be so wide. I have another improved version of this (the spots are snow flakes falling). this is right out of the camera.
Las Cruces Photographer / Las Cruces Wedding Photographer
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As I just ordered the G9 yesterday, I'm looking forward to him filling his promise of showing how he set his SS to 1/2500 without having to use High-Speed Sync. I can't seem to find that information on the web anywhere.
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For digital, I started with the Olympus C700 2.1MP 10X optical. It was great but just very slow. Moved to 300D when Canon just launched it then now 5D.
Got another Olympus P&S for my daughter 2 years back, found the photo was pretty good with good light source. Recommended her boyfriend to get a Pansonic FZ18X early this year, he sends me great pictures now and then.
Friends always come to me for advise on the camera. I shared with them that if they just want the "good" photos, go for the P&S. If they treat the camera as toys, try to get the DSLR. The SLR does not guarentee good picture at the beginning, we need to take a little bit time to gain control. P&S gives you WUSWUG (what you see, what you get)
I am planning to get an all weather P&S as backup in bad weather so that I can continue shooting at any time. Friends may not know whethe I use the P&S or the heavy DSLR.
flickr.com/photos/photoskipper/
I'm enjoying this thread because for the past 2 years I have been using a Sony Cyber Shot DSC W70 with a Carl Zeiss lens P&S. A few years ago I switched from slide film to digital and this was the camera I chose a) for cost and b) so I could acclimate myself to the digital world before I purchased an expensive DSLR. I must say I love this little "guy" and have taken many fantastic photos. I recently started in the stock photo biz and have decided to upgrade to a DSLR. I have ordered the new Sony A300 18-70MM DSLR. If anyone has any experience with this new model please let me know. One thing I absolutely love about the P&S is the fact that you can slip it in your pocket or bag and away you go. I carry mine with me always and will continue to do so when I do not have the new DSLR.
Regards,
Cate
www.photo.net/photos/PhotoByCate
www.photobycate.com
http://photobycate.wordpress.com/
Agreed. That was a great camera. I think the Coolpix line went downhill soon after that model. I wore mine out--internal battery is gone & the lens is making crunchy sounds when zooming. It's earned a proud spot on the shelf now, right beside the OM-2 & 7000i.
http://www.chrislaudermilkphoto.com/