!!! Need Advice - Client Offended After Given Rates for Digital Files/Usage Rights!

JDrake

So last weekend I voluntarily photographed a farm that breeds a rare breed of horse. Pictures turned out well and owner was happy. It was on a volunteer basis on both sides as I asked her permission to come photograph her horses and she presented her horses to me to photograph.

I supplied client with an online gallery to purchase prints off of at reasonable prices. (My normal portrait rates for sessions I usually charge for). She wanted to know about buying digital images and be able to use them for her website and to make a calendar and sell on Cafepress etc. I told her I would be interested in doing a trade for the pictures in exchange for a filly she has for sale (5K). (win/win for both of us right?) (since she wanted like 20-25 images). I even mentioned throwing in web design services to the deal if she so wanted.

I sent her an email with the following email:
"I enjoyed speaking with you on the phone earlier today. I am glad to hear all is well! Here are my rates for digital files and the rights to use them other than personal use:

High Resolution Files for Personal Use: $65 per image
1 Year Use per Image for Websites/Advertising - $250
2 Years Use per Image for Websites/Advertising - $350
Unlimited Use per Image for Websites/Advertising - $450

These rates do not include the 10% discount I told you I would give you so they would be slightly cheaper for you than I normally charge. My only requirement for Digital files and their use is that credit must be given to Drake Photography on any published material, written or on the web. EX: "© Drake Photography" located somewhere on the image that is easily readable. Other than that, when you purchase the rights to use the image, you may use it in any way you wish.

For website design, Daniel's rates start at $650 for a site of up to 10 pages. Anything additional to that is negotiated and at a rate of $20 per hour. We also provide site maintenance as needed at a low rate of $20 per hour. You basically just give us a call or send an email with what you would like changed or updated and we quote you how many hours it would take and make the necessary changes for you. There is no monthly requirement for this service at all.

As far as doing a trade with you would go, I would be willing to give you any pictures you would like to have with unlimited rights to use those images. We could even work something out to include web design services in the deal if you would like. This is something we can work out though later if you are interested. I just thought I would mention it to you in case it was something you would be interested in doing. No pressure though!

If you have any questions about anything, please feel free to call or send an email! Please give all your ponies a carrot for us!

Best wishes,"

I thought I sent over a very nice email with my rates. I then received the following email that I am VERY concerned about as my whole reason to photograph these horses is for a Calendar I am working on putting together:

"Really liked the pictures but I will not be able to afford it at this point. I am interested in aprrox. 20-25 pictures and I shall not be restricted by any use since I felt that I did take my time to show your my horses and worked pretty hard on getting them look good.
I will be interested to purchase images for the reasonable price without limitations (with your logo) for futher use.

I will not be interested in trading the filly after I thought about it. Her both parents without the upkeep for the mare during the pregnancy cost me over $50,000.

Please do not use images of my horses in any commercial projects without my consent or written approval.
Thank you"

Please - informed minds - what are my options here?!? I would like to smooth out relations with this person as best I can without being taken advantage of... are my rates really THAT out of line??? I really don't get why she responded the way she did..... :dunno

Angelo

If I read your post correctly you did not volunteer to do anything. You asked to photograph her horses and she allowed you to.

Volunteer is when someone asks you and you agree to perform gratis.

You asked, she obliged and spent considerable time preparing and presenting her horses and then you hit her with an unexpected fee.

The problem here is not your rates, it's the way you went about it.

Absent any way of salvaging the relationship you're both out of luck because she won't get the images and you don't have signed releases to use them yourself.

You should have discussed all of the possibilities, agreed to terms and had releases signed beforehand. As of now you got what you originally asked for; experience shooting the horses.

JDrake

This was not an unexpected fee as she had ASKED me to purchase pictures from me. I merely supplied her with my rates as that is what was asked of me. I was willing to supply her with images for personal use but she was wanting to REsell them herself.

Foochar

To me this arrangement sounds pretty similar to the TFCD deal that many fashion photographers do with models. You both put effort into making the shoot happen, and you both brought something of value to the table. This is not a case where she paid you to shoot the photographs, and therefore has some special rights to them (as a model would normally have if paying a photographer for head shots, and would have a contract allowing her to use them for self promotion etc.), nor is this a case where you paid her to show the horses for you and allow you to shoot them giving you additional rights to the photos (as a photographer would pay a particular model that he specifically wanted to add to his portfolio, or sell as part of an advertisement, and would state in his contract).

I don't think you can treat these images the same way you would treat a normal portrait session, in a normal portrait session the client is coming to you to have photographs taken, and generally speaking you have no intention of using the photographs other than possibly in a portfolio. It sounds to me like you both entered into this arrangement with the intention to use the images commercially, but neither of you really thought through the details of this. Obviously you aren't going to get the prices that you quoted to her from her, since she feels they are out of line, in a free market economy everything is worth what someone is willing to pay for it, since we are willing to pay almost $4 for a gallon gas, a gallon of gas is worth $4. Since she isn't willing to pay $450 for an unlimited use license and she can prevent you from selling that license to anyone else, the license isn't worth $450. At this point I think you need to figure out how you can maximize the value you can get from these photographs, given what you think you can make from sales of the calendar you talked about. How much can she reasonably expect to profit from them if she has rights to them?

If it was me in the situation you describe I would consider offering her the personal use license at a very minimal cost, as a way of rebuilding the relationship. Again, to me this feels more like it was a TFCD arrangement than anything else, and the personal use license is normally inherent in a TFCD arrangement. With respect to commercial use, assuming you are serious about the calendar idea, I would try offering her a one for one trade on releases with specific rights. In other words for each image that you want to use in the calendar you offer her the right to choose one image that she will have perpetual rights to in any form other than a calendar, in exchange for you having perpetual rights to the image you have chosen for the calendar in calendar format, and possibly a few other formats if you expect to use them that way (print form for example). Part of the agreement if I was involved would also be that neither of us could sell the image for commercial use by anyone else without the specific consent of the other for that sale, and that we would split any profits from such sales.

JDrake

Thanks... that sounds like a good idea. The only problem though is that her intentions are to sell a calendar herself from her website with my images in it so I don't think she would be willing to let me use the images myself for the calendar I was intending to use them for. (It's as if she stole my idea). I am feeling as if there is no way to win for either side. I am waiting a responce from her as to what she would be willing to pay. I am thinking though that I will likely just give her a few shots for use on her website to promote her horses (which she is selling), take the album down and just not use any of the images I shot that weekend. She knew upfront my reasons for taking pictures of her horses as I informed her from the start. I had also told her that she could order prints online if she wanted any but all she was interested in was the full rights to the images and digital files to use to make her calendar that she wanted to sell (which she told me on the phone when she called me the other day and we had a pleasant conversation as I told her I would send an email with my rates). The harsh responce she gave me in responce just baffled me.

Sam

I am in grump mood.......................I will try and type slowly.............................I am getting tired of reading the same story over, and over.

Who is at fault here? Who has the responsibility to clearly define the contract / agreement / photo shoot?

Yes Bunky.....you. The photographer!!!!

If you choose to enter into a loose non-defined, undocumented non-meeting of the minds arrangement, then live with the results, and don't cry about it!

LEARN from this.

Here is what I would do at this point. I would apologize to the horse owner for not clarifying everything up front, (including print, and usage rights, and fees), and any misunderstanding that this caused.

I would offer to give her the photos of her choice for personal use, and web use. Produce, co-produce the calender, and split the sales, and, or allow each of you to sell, market the calendar. She in turn will sign a property release so you can use the images.

Or you can get huffy, and delete all the photos, and burn the bridge behind you.

Sam

SloYerRoll

Lots of wisdom in these comments.

Depending on how you feel about it (obviously..) I'd go to the owner and just tell her that you made a mistake and didn't realize you blind-sided her with a hidden fee and that wasn't your intention. Most likely, she'll understand.

Word of mouth is a powerful marketing tool. And it sounds like this owner travels in the circles you want to be involved in.

As others said. Just learn from this expercience. The best practices others talked about are global to small business. Not just photography.

Angelo

Sam wrote:

I am in grump mood.......................I will try and type slowly.............................I am getting tired of reading the same story over, and over.

Who is at fault here? Who has the responsibility to clearly define the contract / agreement / photo shoot?

Yes Bunky.....you. The photographer!!!!

If you choose to enter into a loose non-defined, undocumented non-meeting of the minds arrangement, then live with the results, and don't cry about it!

LEARN from this.

Here is what I would do at this point. I would apologize to the horse owner for not clarifying everything up front, (including print, and usage rights, and fees), and any misunderstanding that this caused.

I would offer to give her the photos of her choice for personal use, and web use. Produce, co-produce the calender, and split the sales, and, or allow each of you to sell, market the calendar. She in turn will sign a property release so you can use the images.

Or you can get huffy, and delete all the photos, and burn the bridge behind you.

Sam

COMPLETELY!!!


Sam - you should type slowly more often!

evoryware

What Sam said.
Judging by her response it's not a burned bridge so don't blow it. You both can still come out happy and work together on future projects.
At this point it is something that needs to be handled face to face and not by email, IMO.

SloYerRoll

evoryware wrote:

At this point it is something that needs to be handled face to face and not by email, IMO.

Good point.

JDrake

Face to Face is not something that is possible as there are now 3 states between she and I.

I have been in touch with her and I think we will be able to work things out. I most likely will not be using these images commercially (my choice) so I am not too concerned about that at this point.

Furono

The biggest problem people get into selling anything is not laying out the terms and prices before doing work. After that, both parties can agree or disagree and go away not angry. In this case that wasn't done and I think that pretty much sums up all the issues regarding this.