Flash during wedding

joshhuntnm · June 17, 2008

so, here I am trying to be mr discrete, not using a flash during the ceremony itself. thing is, every Tom, Dick, and Sally has a PS and are flashing during the whole ceremony. Not that the flash is doing them much good, but it sure made a mess of my photo.

Two questions:
1) would it be in the cards to ask for no flash photos during the ceremony?
2) Do you use flash yourself during the ceremony?

Chris_ND · June 17, 2008

Depends, some ........ uh whats the word..."events" require no flash photography since, some grant that the photography has all rights and can "refuse?" to proceed if others are interupting their "occupational profession" if that makes any sense at all...

SloYerRoll · June 17, 2008

joshhuntnm wrote:

Two questions:
1) would it be in the cards to ask for no flash photos during the ceremony?
2) Do you use flash yourself during the ceremony?

1. No. Even if it was a rule. Someone would not know how to turn the flash off and strobes will start poppin.
2. Yes.

Scott_Quier · June 18, 2008

joshhuntnm wrote:

Two questions:
1) would it be in the cards to ask for no flash photos during the ceremony?
2) Do you use flash yourself during the ceremony?

1 - No. For me, the wedding ceremony is not a photo shoot opportunity. It's me attempting to document/capture the feeling of the event in photographs for my client(s). The only person I've run into that prohibits flash during the ceremony has been the officiant and that's usually not very effective (though I did run into one who, before the ceremony started threatened the entire congregation with stopping the ceremony if someone popped a flash:D). The guests usually don't exhibit much discipline or discretion - they are pretty much motivated by the selfish goal of "I gotta get one of this for me!"

2 - I use flash only during the processional and recessional. All other times, it's ambient light. I shot one at ISO 1600 (noise ninja is a beautiful thing

). This is in keeping with my policy that the wedding is not about the photographer - but about the couple and relationship between themselves and between them and their God. I do whatever I can to be invisible, to not be a distraction, and using flash doesn't fit the pattern.

As I tell my prospective clients during the interview(s), the bottom line is "It is what it is." If that means that another's P&S flash throws strange shadows - Oh well. But, for the portraits, I do restrict others. I get mine in and then it's up to the client(s) to determine if they want to spend the time waiting for Aunt Sally to figure out her P&S so she can get a crap copy of the pose. If so, fine - no skin off my nose.

Swartzy · June 18, 2008

Scott nailed it. It's about capturing/documenting. Flash during the ceremony is pretty much understood...none. Processional, recessional....absolutely, although there are restrictions on those in some sanctuarys.

Scott_Quier · June 18, 2008

Swartzy wrote:

Scott nailed it. It's about capturing/documenting. Flash during the ceremony is pretty much understood...none. Processional, recessional....absolutely, although there are restrictions on those in some sanctuarys.

The most common restriction I have encountered is "Flash stops when the ceremony begins and you can start when the ceremony is over."

For most officiants , the start of the ceremony is when the bride reaches the alter. As soon as she stops walking, the flash(es) get turned off (just to avoid mistakes).

Again, usually the ceremony is over when the officiant says, "I am proud to present, for the first time, Mr. and Mrs ...." It's at this point that I turn the flash(es) back on.

I have actually encountered one exception to the "no flash rule" and it was last weekend. The officiant was a judge, the wedding was outside under a white tent, the background was strongly lit, and the wedding party was strongly backlit. Had the officiant not granted permission for flashes, 90% of the "atmosphere" of the ceremony would have been lost as I attempted to expose the wedding party at the expense of blowing out the background (there was like 3 - 4 stops difference). So, when the officiant told me that he didn't mind flashes, I was going, "Thank you!" I lit the scene with a pair of Sunpak 622 flashes, off-camera, triggered with PocketWizards. Still have to process them, but I have high hopes!

joshhuntnm · June 18, 2008

Scott_Quier wrote:

The most common restriction I have encountered is "Flash stops when the ceremony begins and you can start when the ceremony is over."

For most officiants , the start of the ceremony is when the bride reaches the alter. As soon as she stops walking, the flash(es) get turned off (just to avoid mistakes).

Again, usually the ceremony is over when the officiant says, "I am proud to present, for the first time, Mr. and Mrs ...." It's at this point that I turn the flash(es) back on.

I have actually encountered one exception to the "no flash rule" and it was last weekend. The officiant was a judge, the wedding was outside under a white tent, the background was strongly lit, and the wedding party was strongly backlit. Had the officiant not granted permission for flashes, 90% of the "atmosphere" of the ceremony would have been lost as I attempted to expose the wedding party at the expense of blowing out the background (there was like 3 - 4 stops difference). So, when the officiant told me that he didn't mind flashes, I was going, "Thank you!" I lit the scene with a pair of Sunpak 622 flashes, off-camera, triggered with PocketWizards. Still have to process them, but I have high hopes!

that is the rule I have been going by. common sense to me. I am wondering if the "you may kiss the bride moment" might be one other exception. it seems that everyone is the hall is flashing then; why not the pro?

I'd like to see some of your pics, Scott!

Scott_Quier · June 18, 2008

joshhuntnm wrote:

that is the rule I have been going by. common sense to me. I am wondering if the "you may kiss the bride moment" might be one other exception. it seems that everyone is the hall is flashing then; why not the pro?

I'd like to see some of your pics, Scott!

I ALWAYS talk to the officiant (or his/her representative) before the event to get a briefing on the rules of engagement. Each church/officiant is different and I don't like to make assumptions.

When talking to them, be sure to find out if there are any exceptions. Propose ideas. The worst that can happen is to be told, "No".

As for the pro flashing when the guest are? Well, professionals are expected to behave in a professional manner. If you have talked with the officiant and he/she has told you the rules and you then intentionally break the rules, what does that make you? And, if you get caught? Your name is mud and the word will get around - you can be sure of it. At the very least, you may be blacklisted from working in that church. It's just not worth it.

As for seeing some of my work, well, you can visit my web-site (see the first link below). Some of my wedding galleries are locked at the request of my client, but there are a number that are open. Or you can do a search. I post things in the People forum from time to time. In fact I just started a thread a bit ago - you can see it here. There's also a little bit in my blog. Enjoy!

Art Scott · June 18, 2008

Scott_Quier wrote:

1 - No. For me, the wedding ceremony is not a photo shoot opportunity. It's me attempting to document/capture the feeling of the event in photographs for my client(s). The only person I've run into that prohibits flash during the ceremony has been the officiant and that's usually not very effective (though I did run into one who, before the ceremony started threatened the entire congregation with stopping the ceremony if someone popped a flash:D). The guests usually don't exhibit much discipline or discretion - they are pretty much motivated by the selfish goal of "I gotta get one of this for me!"

2 - I use flash only during the processional and recessional. All other times, it's ambient light. I shot one at ISO 1600 (noise ninja is a beautiful thing ). This is in keeping with my policy that the wedding is not about the photographer - but about the couple and relationship between themselves and between them and their God. I do whatever I can to be invisible, to not be a distraction, and using flash doesn't fit the pattern.

As I tell my prospective clients during the interview(s), the bottom line is "It is what it is." If that means that another's P&S flash throws strange shadows - Oh well. But, for the portraits, I do restrict others. I get mine in and then it's up to the client(s) to determine if they want to spend the time waiting for Aunt Sally to figure out her P&S so she can get a crap copy of the pose. If so, fine - no skin off my nose.

I totally agree.............

jeffreaux2 · June 18, 2008

Art Scott wrote:

I totally agree.............

Yup....Scott nailed it.

Cason · June 18, 2008

Scott_Quier wrote:

Had the officiant not granted permission for flashes, 90% of the "atmosphere" of the ceremony would have been lost as I attempted to expose the wedding party at the expense of blowing out the background (there was like 3 - 4 stops difference).

I'm curious to know what you would have told the clients if he did say no and all the shots (background) were blown out.

cmorganphotography · June 18, 2008

Scott_Quier wrote:

As I tell my prospective clients during the interview(s), the bottom line is "It is what it is." If that means that another's P&S flash throws strange shadows - Oh well. But, for the portraits, I do restrict others. I get mine in and then it's up to the client(s) to determine if they want to spend the time waiting for Aunt Sally to figure out her P&S so she can get a crap copy of the pose. If so, fine - no skin off my nose.

Ok, I had major probs with this at my last wedding. How did you handle that? I had people standing aside and behind me, at one point I was a tripod... how do you handle these people taking *your* photos? What do you say?

I got to the point where I was taking my photos [the work into posing everyone making everyone smile and not blink at once] snapping my shot and moving aside for at least five p+s shooters to take *their* pic of my setups.

I never want to be in that situation again, it grated on my nerves and imho hurt my sales. What to do?

Art Scott · June 19, 2008

I have numbered you ?'s in the quoted area and answers are in bold.........

cmorganphotography wrote:

Ok, I had major probs with this at my last wedding. How did you handle that?

1-I had people standing aside and behind me, at one point I was a tripod... how do you handle these people taking *your* photos? What do you say?

I normally make a quick announcement to the effect that I am on a very tight time table and have to get the B/G to the reception as fast as possible os please wait til my flash goes off then you ahve until I am infront ofthe B/G changing the pose to get y0ur shots....I am not trying to keep you from getting shots but I have an obligation to the B/G to make sure their day is as STRESS free as possible.......I do this while i am setting up my first shot and my equipment for that 1st shot.......NO ONE ever gets to use me as a 'pod...that is ASSAULT:D Just Kiddin' but I would never allow anyone to do that.....that will cause you to get very tired very very quickly..........

2-I got to the point where I was taking my photos [the work into posing everyone making everyone smile and not blink at once] snapping my shot and moving aside for at least five p+s shooters to take *their* pic of my setups.

I understand that #2 is not a question but I will treat it as one anyway.....let them snap for about 5 sec after you get your shot...the njust walk right out and change that pose and if someone flashes into y9ur face tell them that hurts your eyes and takes you longer to get your composure and focus and that stress the B/G which ain't good.......a similar monolouge like in #1 usually takes of this though............

3-I never want to be in that situation again, it grated on my nerves and imho hurt my sales.
YOU'RE ABSOLUTELY CORRECT......it does hurt sales and also your professionalism........just need to get tough

4-What to do?
See All Above:D

Scott_Quier · June 19, 2008

RTP wrote:

I'm curious to know what you would have told the clients if he did say no and all the shots (background) were blown out.

I NEVER argue with the officiant as it is my goal to NOT be blacklisted. I advise the client as to the probable impact of the conditions on the photography so they know what to expect.

During the initial consult, and then again when the contract is signed, I inform the client that I will not argue with the "House Rules". If the client wants a waiver, I tell them that I will provide technical (photographic) advice/comment should they want to approach the officiant but the arguing and persuasion I leave to the client.

If the client then gets the desired waiver, then all is good. If not, then I do the best I can and "It is what it is." The client has been warned well in advance. It hasn't happened yet, but if I think there might be an issue, I make sure to have at least one witness to the conversation. Don't know how well that will work, but I figure it can't hurt.

Scott_Quier · June 19, 2008

cmorganphotography wrote:

Ok, I had major probs with this at my last wedding. How did you handle that? I had people standing aside and behind me, at one point I was a tripod... how do you handle these people taking *your* photos? What do you say?

I got to the point where I was taking my photos [the work into posing everyone making everyone smile and not blink at once] snapping my shot and moving aside for at least five p+s shooters to take *their* pic of my setups.

I never want to be in that situation again, it grated on my nerves and imho hurt my sales. What to do?

My business model is a bit different than that of many photographers and it's been working pretty well for me so far; I get all the money I need from the contract fee. I provide a service to the client rather than a product. If they buy prints from me - great, more money for me. If not, that's OK too.

During the initial interview and again during the contract signing, I tell the client(s) that I have no problems with other people having cameras as long as they don't interfere with the proper functioning of my equipment (which hasn't happened yet but I'm thinking of those opportunities where a guest has an ST-E2 or something that might interfere with the proper functioning of my flashes - for example). Then I educate them a bit - the more time they allow for the guest to come in behind me to get their copy of the pose, the more time it will take to get each pose and the fewer poses we will be able to get in during that short time between the ceremony and when they want to take off for the reception. This does a good job of setting the stage for that time when I have to look at the B&G and ask if they are ready to move on to the next pose so I can "get you out of here on time".

But Art Scott is right that one of my obligations is to do what I can to reduce the stress on the B&G. So, I also make a very short annoucement that I am there for the B&G and that I need to get all the requested poses captured in as little time as possible. So, "While I'm shooting, I need you all to hold your cameras at your side or hide them behind your body so the peoples' attention is where it needs to be, on my camera. When I get my shots, and if (insert name of B&G here) want to allow the time for it, I'll give you a short opportunity to get your shots."

As for people standing beside/behind me - well that doesn't last long. I move too much and too quickly and people usually get the hint that there is a zone around me that is not safe. There have been occasions where I have bumped people when they were taking a snap (Oops, a ruined photo! No time for a second attempt). One time, with my eye in the viewfinder, I took a step back while framing a shot and actually stepped on a foot and knocked the person down then made it obvious that it was their fault for being in the way and made them apologize for being there! End of problem!

But, I maintain a very friendly, happy, light-hearted, and joking demeanor while, at the same time, aggressively protecting my working zone and protecting the attention span of the people being posed.

It's all about getting the product requested by the client in the shortest time possible without adding more stress to the day - though by that time, the B&G are starting to de-pressurize. If the client knows you are there for them (and not, for example to get more portfolio fodder), you can get away with a lot while still being professional and without coming across as "that pushy photographer".

cmorganphotography · June 19, 2008

Art Scott wrote:

I have numbered you ?'s in the quoted area and answers are in bold.........

Ok. Thank you. I'm sick again oday so I'll be brief. It seems I need to make a speech to the effect that I'm here and I'm on a time table and please respect me and the b and g. Thank you, without being too curt.
Secondly, not waiting for others to take pics as I did. Simply if they get the shot sure. If not, ok well.
Thanks a lot. I'll do better next time. Maybe I'll post up a couple while I still have them public.

cmorganphotography · June 19, 2008

Scott_Quier wrote:

My business model is a bit different than that of many photographers and it's been working pretty well for me so far; I get all the money I need from the contract fee. I provide a service to the client rather than a product. If they buy prints from me - great, more money for me. If not, that's OK too.

During the initial interview and again during the contract signing, I tell the client(s) that I have no problems with other people having cameras as long as they don't interfere with the proper functioning of my equipment (which hasn't happened yet but I'm thinking of those opportunities where a guest has an ST-E2 or something that might interfere with the proper functioning of my flashes - for example). Then I educate them a bit - the more time they allow for the guest to come in behind me to get their copy of the pose, the more time it will take to get each pose and the fewer poses we will be able to get in during that short time between the ceremony and when they want to take off for the reception. This does a good job of setting the stage for that time when I have to look at the B&G and ask if they are ready to move on to the next pose so I can "get you out of here on time".

But Art Scott is right that one of my obligations is to do what I can to reduce the stress on the B&G. So, I also make a very short annoucement that I am there for the B&G and that I need to get all the requested poses captured in as little time as possible. So, "While I'm shooting, I need you all to hold your cameras at your side or hide them behind your body so the peoples' attention is where it needs to be, on my camera. When I get my shots, and if (insert name of B&G here) want to allow the time for it, I'll give you a short opportunity to get your shots."

As for people standing beside/behind me - well that doesn't last long. I move too much and too quickly and people usually get the hint that there is a zone around me that is not safe. There have been occasions where I have bumped people when they were taking a snap (Oops, a ruined photo! No time for a second attempt). One time, with my eye in the viewfinder, I took a step back while framing a shot and actually stepped on a foot and knocked the person down then made it obvious that it was their fault for being in the way and made them apologize for being there! End of problem!

But, I maintain a very friendly, happy, light-hearted, and joking demeanor while, at the same time, aggressively protecting my working zone and protecting the attention span of the people being posed.

It's all about getting the product requested by the client in the shortest time possible without adding more stress to the day - though by that time, the B&G are starting to de-pressurize. If the client knows you are there for them (and not, for example to get more portfolio fodder), you can get away with a lot while still being professional and without coming across as "that pushy photographer".

I don't want to be a pushy photographer. What do you charge to cover yourself thoroughly? I like the defensive work space. I'll try that next time. Yeah, when I was taking the bridal parties pics one girl kept looking at her boyfriend. I would have liked a more private setting and it took way longer than it needed to because of all the extra people. It was stressful.

How do you handle the reception? They didn't really have a schedule for cake, garter toss, etc. I had to ask when these things would happen and then something would distract them. Im sure it'll be easier when it isn't a friend I'm working for. I hope.

What does your contract look like?

Scott_Quier · June 19, 2008

cmorganphotography wrote:

I don't want to be a pushy photographer. What do you charge to cover yourself thoroughly?

Prices vary from location to location and for that reason, and others, any pricing information I might give here would just cause problems. If you are interested, do me a pm with a phone number and I'll give you a call - thought I wonder how much help that would be.

cmorganphotography wrote:

I like the defensive work space. I'll try that next time. Yeah, when I was taking the bridal parties pics one girl kept looking at her boyfriend. I would have liked a more private setting and it took way longer than it needed to because of all the extra people. It was stressful.

How do you handle the reception? They didn't really have a schedule for cake, garter toss, etc. I had to ask when these things would happen and then something would distract them. Im sure it'll be easier when it isn't a friend I'm working for. I hope.

Talk to the DJ. Introduce yourself before the start of the reception. If you are comfortable doing so, ask for his help. Ask him to be involved in the schedule of events and to announce when the bouquet toss, etc is to happen. They normally do this anyway, so it's no big deal for them. Another tip: ask the DJ to give the bride (groom) a 1 ... 2 ... 3 countdown for the toss so that you can be properly ready on the trigger to get the toss. And, tell the bride, "No practice. Just do it." Otherwise, it's the little boy who cried wolf - when is she going to do it for real?

BTW - never gets easy. It may get more predictable, but it doesn't get easy. If it were easy, anyone could do this

Besides, we don't want it to get out that any "Uncle Bob" with a dSLR and an f/3.5-5.6 zoom can do the job - right

cmorganphotography wrote:

What does your contract look like?

PM me with a phone number and we can talk about that as well.

Swartzy · June 19, 2008

cmorganphotography wrote:

What does your contract look like?

Heh, Mine says...."I will take pictures, You will pay me"

joshhuntnm · June 19, 2008

Swartzy wrote:

Heh, Mine says...."I will take pictures, You will pay me"

You need one more line: and if anything bad happens, it isn't my fault!

Flash during wedding

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