indoor sports lens help

erson83

So I wanna shoot indoor sports in notoriously poorly lit high school gyms and such. Obviously the canon 2.8 70-200 would be ideal, but I don't have that coin. What does everybody think about aquiring a canon 100mm 2.0 non L lens? it's not the dream lens, but it's a sweet price with an ultra low Ap. Could this pass until I make enough money for the dream?

Matt336

What sports do you plan on shooting? If it is basketball, I wouldn't go with a 100mm. It would be way to large IMO. I had trouble shooting basketball with a 70-200 VR lens because it was almost too big. Granted I shoot from underneath the rim. Maybe a nifty 50 would be a better choice.

erson83

very good point

Matt336 wrote:

I wouldn't go with a 100mm in a gym. Way to large IMO. I had trouble shooting basketball with a 70-200 VR lens because it was almost too big. Granted I shoot from underneath the rim. Maybe a nifty 50 would be a better choice.

do you find the 50 to give you enough should you want to shoot anything under the basket? maybe say, anything on that half of the court? or is it strictly the under the basket shots it excels at? I'd like a lens that will let me camp underneath the rim and get up to half court away...can it do that?>

Matt336

I do not own a 50mm so I cannot answer that. My Sigma 28-70 f/2.8 does well though and is big enough that you can get a decent half court shot.

Frog Lady

another option to consider would be the Canon 85 f/1.8. It's only about $350 at B&H and, at f/1.8, would help w/ the poor light of most gyms.

I shot bb the first time this year, mostly using my 70-200 f/2.8 and found that while it did a decent job, I would have liked faster glass. I believe I tried my 50 f/1.4 for one of the games and felt like I would have liked longer reach (but I was mostly shooting along the sides or near the back corner).

Feel free to check out what I got at http://froglady.smugmug.com/Sports/469397 (the password is Alex for all the Grove sports galleries). Some, not all were processed, so you can see what they looked like SOC.

C.

sportshound

erson83 wrote:

So I wanna shoot indoor sports in notoriously poorly lit high school gyms and such. Obviously the canon 2.8 70-200 would be ideal, but I don't have that coin. What does everybody think about aquiring a canon 100mm 2.0 non L lens? it's not the dream lens, but it's a sweet price with an ultra low Ap. Could this pass until I make enough money for the dream?

I shoot a TON of my daughter's club volleyball in places that are closer to caves than gyms sometimes. I almost exclusively use my 28-70/2.8 because most of the time I can get fairly close to the action (right next to the court) and the zoom allows me to vary the shots. I occasionally use my 80-200/2.8 but it sometimes makes it difficult to get the right shot given the focal length (unless I have to shoot from bleachers, etc.). Even at 2.8, it was sometimes difficult to get a good shot without heavy noise with the D80. Now that I have a new toy - D3 - I can compensate by jacking up the ISO as it has almost imperceptible noise up through 6400. The bottom line - I'd go zoom as soon as you can afford it but you have to make do with what you've got until then. I'm sure you'd prefer Canon glass to off-brand but that may be the easier way to get there sooner (I got my Nikkor on eBay but they were still not cheap).

Bassett1976

Canon has a 50mm/f1.8 for under $100. I have not tried mine with indoor sports but it is a fairly fast lens that I've used on dark rides at Disneyland.

pyry

If it's local gym, I'd take a standard zoom, something in the 17-55 mm sort of ball park and f/2.8 at that. It'll work if you can get close enough. Talk yourself a spot on the sidelines.

If the lighting is really bad, and I know how awful equestrian arenas can be, f/2.8 won't cut it and you'll need something in the f/1.4-2 range. I bought an 85/1.8 and I'll probably need a 30/1.4 to go with it as well for shooting show jumping and other things to do with horses - and general shallow dof work too. The 85/1.8 I have is a Canon and the 30/1.4 I'm thinking of is a Sigma.

Here's what I've worked out as the need for focal lenghts (and this is for horse and rider subjects) 135 mm over the long side (200 if it's a large arena), 85 over the short, 17-55 for anything closer. For basketball I'd say go with those and crop a little or knock 'em up a notch (200, 135, 85 and 17-55 mm or something).

And whatever you go for, try make it a lens with ultrasonic focusing - you'll want the focus to be as quick as possible.

Hope this helps at all

JBHotShots

Bassett1976 wrote:

Canon has a 50mm/f1.8 for under $100. I have not tried mine with indoor sports but it is a fairly fast lens that I've used on dark rides at Disneyland.

I think this lens really only works well for portraits not sports. It searches to much for my likeing.

jonh68

I can't speak for the canon 85 1.8, but I use a Nikon 85 mm 1.8 for basketball and volleyball. This lens isn't made for sports and it does have trouble focusing sometimes, but if you anticipate and have the focus in the general spot of the action, it does fine. Unless you have a really great high noise performing camera, a fast 85 or 50 mm 1.8 is the way to go. I would rather have a few great shots than many underexposed with a faster focusing but slower lens.

The 100 2.0 would be fast enough. For indoor sports, the 70-200 would not be a big of help as a fast prime. In other words, I wouldn't spend the money on it if the only purpose is indoor gyms.

johng

Out of the dozen or so gyms I've shot in over the past few years, only 1 was bright enough to use 2.8 without flash below ISO 3200 for basketball and get decent results. If you are OK with using ISO 3200 (and have it on your camera) or are OK with and allowed to use flash then the 70-200 is a great lens. Otherwise you need a prime. Which prime to use depends entirely upon where you are shooting from and what type of action you want to capture.

The 50mm 1.8 is good for under-the-rim shots but not much else.
The 85 and 100 are great lenses but tight for close-in action (especially on 1.6 crop body) and still not long enogh for far away (think 20-25 feet for 85 and 30 feet for 100). IF you can shoot from the baseline, the 85mm 1.8 would be my recommendation

KED

erson83 wrote:

do you find the 50 to give you enough should you want to shoot anything under the basket? maybe say, anything on that half of the court? or is it strictly the under the basket shots it excels at? I'd like a lens that will let me camp underneath the rim and get up to half court away...can it do that?>

Canon's 50 1.4 is relatively cheap (<$400 as I recall). Can't shoot wide open as a general matter, but for under the basket it's great, and I've taken my chances all the way out to half court (with mad crops -- only for posting, not for printing, so no, it will not "excel", but we're talking about tradeoffs here). If you can set up for flash in your gym, you can make lots of things work lens-wise. If, like me, you are constrained to available light, get your fastest affordable lens and shoot tight; I'm pretty sure there is NOT a truly excellent solution for the entire half court in available light.

donek

erson83 wrote:

So I wanna shoot indoor sports in notoriously poorly lit high school gyms and such. Obviously the canon 2.8 70-200 would be ideal, but I don't have that coin. What does everybody think about aquiring a canon 100mm 2.0 non L lens? it's not the dream lens, but it's a sweet price with an ultra low Ap. Could this pass until I make enough money for the dream?

You've got 3 options. I think your cheapest sure shot solution is to purchase a couple vivitar flashes (or older Nikon Flashes off e-aby) and some radio triggers. Figure about $100 per flash (you may already have one) and $60 for the cactus or e-bay triggers. I've only used the cactus triggers 3 times in a gym so far, but I've been very please with their reliability. You can also look at the new budget triggers from alien bees. For details on this setup, google strobist and read the strobist web site in detail.

My first year shooting gyms was almost entirely with a 50mm f1.4. I got good results at ISO 1600 and even cropped to 1/2 frame with my 10 Megapixel body. These shots were used for newsprint and you couldn't tell the difference between the 1/2 frame crop or a full frame image. I probably still pull this lens out more often than any other for Basketball, but now include an 85mm f1.4 and 30mm f1.4. While some highschool gyms allow the space for under the hoop shots with the 50mm, it really is tough to do in most gyms. The 30 does that job much better. I've shot in about 10 different gyms and can say that f2.8 at iso 1600 doesn't hack it in any of them. Only one would allow f2 at 1/400 iso 1600. Some would be impossible without ISO 3200 or a bunce flash. This is assuming a need to achieve a 1/250 exposure.

Your third option is once again a prime lens adding a bounce flash. I shot this way this last season. The bounce flash is great for eliminating the shadows and getting better exposures on the face. It can even allow you to stop down slightly.

You'll find lots of Volleyball and Basketball shots I've taken here:
http://www.seanmartinphoto.com/Events
If you're not familiar with smugmug put your mouse over an image and click "photo info". You'll be able to view all the exposure info and lens size.

If you wish to see the results of my recent attempts with the flashes and radio triggers, go here:
http://www.seanmartinphoto.com/gallery/4934122_wFYMc
and
http://www.seanmartinphoto.com/gallery/5026587_Hm3pR
Settings for these experiments were
flashes: 1/4 power 50mm to 70mm
camera/lens 70-200 at f4 1/250 iso 400 shooting in burst mode at 6fps

The tutorials section of this site has some wonderful stuff too. Look up the top of your screen. There's even one on shooting indoor basketball.

erson83

donek wrote:

You've got 3 options. I think your cheapest sure shot solution is to purchase a couple vivitar flashes (or older Nikon Flashes off e-aby) and some radio triggers. Figure about $100 per flash (you may already have one) and $60 for the cactus or e-bay triggers. I've only used the cactus triggers 3 times in a gym so far, but I've been very please with their reliability. You can also look at the new budget triggers from alien bees. For details on this setup, google strobist and read the strobist web site in detail.

My first year shooting gyms was almost entirely with a 50mm f1.4. I got good results at ISO 1600 and even cropped to 1/2 frame with my 10 Megapixel body. These shots were used for newsprint and you couldn't tell the difference between the 1/2 frame crop or a full frame image. I probably still pull this lens out more often than any other for Basketball, but now include an 85mm f1.4 and 30mm f1.4. While some highschool gyms allow the space for under the hoop shots with the 50mm, it really is tough to do in most gyms. The 30 does that job much better. I've shot in about 10 different gyms and can say that f2.8 at iso 1600 doesn't hack it in any of them. Only one would allow f2 at 1/400 iso 1600. Some would be impossible without ISO 3200 or a bunce flash. This is assuming a need to achieve a 1/250 exposure.

Your third option is once again a prime lens adding a bounce flash. I shot this way this last season. The bounce flash is great for eliminating the shadows and getting better exposures on the face. It can even allow you to stop down slightly.

You'll find lots of Volleyball and Basketball shots I've taken here:
http://www.seanmartinphoto.com/Events
If you're not familiar with smugmug put your mouse over an image and click "photo info". You'll be able to view all the exposure info and lens size.

If you wish to see the results of my recent attempts with the flashes and radio triggers, go here:
http://www.seanmartinphoto.com/gallery/4934122_wFYMc
and
http://www.seanmartinphoto.com/gallery/5026587_Hm3pR
Settings for these experiments were
flashes: 1/4 power 50mm to 70mm
camera/lens 70-200 at f4 1/250 iso 400 shooting in burst mode at 6fps

The tutorials section of this site has some wonderful stuff too. Look up the top of your screen. There's even one on shooting indoor basketball.

No problems getting the school to allow you to use flashes?

donek

erson83 wrote:

No problems getting the school to allow you to use flashes?

I've never had a single sole complain. Maybe it's the press pass, but every parent in the gym shoots with a flash as well. If it's not going directly in the players eye, it's really not going to have any affect on them. If you point your flash right at them and start firing it on high from a few feet away you might have a problem. The important thing to remember when using a flash in a gym is that you're not trying to become the only light source in the room. You're trying to work with the existing light and add to it. That's why you're bouncing off a wall or feathering the players by pointing the main beam of the flash over the players heads from the stands. With a couple flashes mounted in the stands shooting at iso 1600 and f4 to f6 You're likely to do quite well with a zoom covering 24mm to 70mm. You can go longer if you want, but your remote flashes are going to be effective for about 1/3 of the length of the court.

A lot of this, I guess, depends on where you'll be shooting from. If you're planning to get on the floor and shoot the main action under the basket, the remote flashes will work. If you'd prefer to stay in the stands, then you'll need a longer (50mm to 85mm) fast prime lens and might want the bounce flash.

crockett

I've shot a fair amount of high school gyms and I just want to add that donek's reply is spot on. In my experience you can absolutely just about forget f2.8. I'm a little behind in the camera times (I shoot a Canon 30D) and the highest ISO I can use is 1600 (it has 3200 but because of noise it isn't a reasonable option). I test my lighting during warm-ups and shoot in manual. I dream to be at 1/500 f2.0 ISO 1600. In high school gyms it's usually worse and sometimes much worse.

I don't believe any posters mentioned the camera body considerations. The 30D is 1.6 crop (I believe) so even though I love shooting with the 85mm 1.8 it can be tight for BB. Looking back if I had one lense to choose to get started, I would get the 50mm 1.4 for $300. Then I would add either a 35mm f2 ($200) or f1.4 (if you have the money) or the 85mm 1.8 $300. I would base the second choice on how often you'll have access to under the basket. If you're going to be mostly in the corners, opt for the 85mm.

If you shoot a full frame body then I'd start with the 85mm. And my second and third choices would be the 50mm 1.4 or 135mm f2. Again depending on under basket or corner.

If you have a dream gym that has lighting eqivalent to NCAA or Pro's and will only be shooting in that gym then the 70-200mm 2.8 and shoot from the corners. But the 20+ high school gyms I've shoot in, it doesn't exist.

I've read the Nikkon D3 will shoot at 6400 and still have acceptable noise. This would be the ultimate but I'm sure it comes at a cost.

crockett

I hope the original poster has gotten a solid answer and I'm not hijacking. I think this would benefit all.

I have a few questions for Donek. When you say you shot at 6 fps in the examples linked.

1) Were you using 2 flashes?
2) Can you talk/write a little bit about your setup (corners, just at one end, etc). Where do you put the flashes, do you bounce them, bounce them off what?, etc.
3) Finally, do you use external battery packs with the flashes shooting in burst mode. Or do the standard 4 AA (I believe it's 4 AAs) work just fine?
4) Do you use any diffuser or a bounce card with the flashes?

Thanks in advance?

donek

crockett wrote:

I hope the original poster has gotten a solid answer and I'm not hijacking. I think this would benefit all.

I have a few questions for Donek. When you say you shot at 6 fps in the examples linked.

1) Were you using 2 flashes?
2) Can you talk/write a little bit about your setup (corners, just at one end, etc). Where do you put the flashes, do you bounce them, bounce them off what?, etc.
3) Finally, do you use external battery packs with the flashes shooting in burst mode. Or do the standard 4 AA (I believe it's 4 AAs) work just fine?
4) Do you use any diffuser or a bounce card with the flashes?

Thanks in advance?

I was using 2 flashes, no diffusers or bounce cards. The flashes were simply pointed just over the kids heads. This particular situation was a toddler play group. They were playing mid court, so the setup was moved toward the center line pointing as if from the corners at about 45 degrees. There are no bleachers in this gym, so the flashes were mounted on 6 foot light stands. I'm using SB-800 flashes which can use 5 AA batteries. This reduces the recycle time a bit. After about 4 frames the flash begins to loose power and can't keep up. I'm shooting with a D300 capable of 8 fps, but the cactus triggers seem to be capable of only 6 fps.

As for external battery packs, I do have one lead acid pack I produced last year for shooting bounce. I'll probably produce another before volleyball season starts. The Nikon one is far too expensive in my opinion, so I simply went to batteries plus and picked up a good sized 6 V Lead Acid cell for under $15. I made a couple dummy batteries out of 3/8in dowels, dropped them in the battery compartment, drilling a hole through the 4 cell battery door for the wires. Worked great and I never ran out of power. In fact, the cell I used was only charged 3 times the entire season. If someone want's to see how to produce one of these, I'd be happy to post photos, but I've never really seen a DIY section for this site.

gus

erson83 wrote:

canon 100mm 2.0 non L lens? it's not the dream lens, but it's a sweet price with an ultra low Ap. Could this pass until I make enough money for the dream?

I loved that lens when i had it....you press the button...go make a cup of tea...mow the lawn...then go to the movies & when you got back to it ...it would almost be finished hunting for focus. Seriously not something i would be using for that photography.