advice needed on session fees

digital faerie

Wow, seems like I haven't been on here in forever.....oh wait, I haven't. LOL

well I've been a busy bee and due to some recent promo shots I've been doing for some local bands, I'm starting to get bombarded with requests for my services and questions about how much I charge, etc.

so here I sit like a duck out of water with absolutely no clue on how much to charge. I shoot strictly digital now.....so really I probably need to at least cover gas spent going all over NC. LOL

any advice on what you guys may have charged for a session when you first started out would be most appreciated.

and in case you're curious, here's a few examples of what I've been doing lately.

Terrorcouple:


Terrorcouple:


Kevin of Terrorcouple:


Die Maschine album art and website imagery:


and another terrorcouple:

Shay Stephens

No one can really answer what you should charge. It depends on so many things. And those things only you and the customer know for sure.

A good place to start for new photographers facing the task of deciding for themselves what to charge (as opposed to letting others decide for you) is to pick up a couple of books on pricing photography. Two books I have and found beneficial are:
http://www.allworth.com/Catalog/PH223.htm
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1581150598/103-8441704-6863812?v=glance

Some things you need to account for:
Your overhead
expenses
number of photos used
size and or importance of the photos
How many times they will be reproduced
etc.

Just qouting a price won't take those things into account, and could leave you undercharging or overcharging for the work.

The allworth press book also has sample contracts and other paperwork (model and property releases) that photographers will find useful.

digital faerie

SHAY, you rock my world! thanks!!!!!

fish

As a professional hack, I can tell you absolutely nothing about what you should charge. But judging from the quality of the images you posted and the tone of your posts, I think you should charge a bunch.

Truly great stuff. Well done, faerie...keep going!

patch29

Shay Stephens wrote:

Some things you need to account for:
Your overhead
expenses
number of photos used
size and or importance of the photos
How many times they will be reproduced
etc.

Add in savings for taxes, retirement accounts, new equipment, etc when factoring your overhead, these things can make large fees shrink very quickly, if you plan on doing this professionally.

winnjewett

I have heard a good pricing model: When you get too busy to fill orders, double your prices.

-winn

Sam

From your aviator, and your sample photos, I think you have a unique grasp of this nich market. Your perspective is worth a lot. I think you are facing limited compitition, and with your style you don't want to appear too inexpensive, so charge appropriately.

Sure they can hire any photographer, but even if they are technically better than you, they still won't get the shots you get with your insight, and creativity.

Sam

digital faerie

Sam wrote:

From your aviator, and your sample photos, I think you have a unique grasp of this nich market. Your perspective is worth a lot. I think you are facing limited compitition, and with your style you don't want to appear too inexpensive, so charge appropriately.

Sure they can hire any photographer, but even if they are technically better than you, they still won't get the shots you get with your insight, and creativity.

Sam

oh, wow, thank you all for the feedback.

and herein lies my conundrum. I know I'm worth a lot at this point (TIME ALONE), and hopefully the images speak for themselves. The biggest problem is that all the bands are either unsigned or with an indie label.

I have an upcoming assignment for a guy that I know is "comfortable" meaning he drives a porsche boxter and owns a computer company or two. So at first I thought, well, maybe I should charge $50 to come down and take some shots of him and his wife (they're in a band) and then he can buy prints if he wants or I could come up with some sort of price if he wants to use it for the web (another question).

And then I started thinking, all the time I spend going through the photos, the poses, everything, and $50 seems like a penny. I guess all I can really do is ask if $150 is ok, I just feel like I'm either going to offend or seem like I'm trying to pad my pockets so to speak since I know he's rich.

aaaargh.

DJ-S1

DF, I know zero about this subject but even $150 seems like way too little for you to charge.

Have you seen this thread, it has some great links to other websites in imbedded in it. Maybe you can find some guidelines there.

Your work is great and you deserve to be paid for it. If the band or label is small, then maybe you need to include some sort of percentage clause. That way if the band gets famous and they end up selling 1,000,000 copies of the CD with your cover art on it, you won't just have $200 to show for it.

Good luck, and don't sell yourself short!

Shay Stephens

Semi-rambling thoughts
Priorities. Ask yourself, how much money has this band spent on their instruments, clothes, and other image making items? How important is the image they put forward in any photos that are taken of them and used to promote their work?

Ask yourself how much of a discount the music store gave them on music CD's, guitars, drums, amps, etc because they are just starting out and don't have much money.

Don't base your prices on emotional reasoning. Base them on hard facts. How much time does it take to do X, what are the expenses incurred, other business related concerns like tax, fees, etc. Add it all up, include some profit so that you feel like doing this a year from now. And then let people know ahead of time what that price is. Don't spring it on them after the shoot. Get it all down in writing before you do a thing.

One of the best motivators for a business person is making real profit, being directly benefited by your work and lining your pocket with money. Otherwise, you will go broke and be out of business in the blink of an eye, dejected and disillusioned. Nip that in the bud by charging enough for your work to make a profit. They key work is profit, profit, profit. Not covering expenses, not breaking even, not anything else but profit. You have enough talent to be charging for profit yesterday.

It also makes the customer value the work more. One of the saddest situations you can face is to give a super cheap price to a band for a cover, and then when they hit it big, the record label or their manager goes and picks a less talented by higher priced photographer to shoot the new cover because you are considered not up to the task based solely on their perception of the value you bring because of what you charged!!!

You may find that you get a lot more work once you raise your prices to reasonable or expected levels. People who claim poverty have a funny knack for finding the money they need for something they really want. I have people who double or triple their budgets when they come to see me. So get your work out there, show your prices, and let the market decide. If you are not getting any bites, raise your prices. Keep testing the market to see what it is supporting at the moment. Don't be afraid to change your prices weekly, daily, even hourly if need be until you determine what that market is.

and herein lies my conundrum. I know I'm worth a lot at this point (TIME ALONE), and hopefully the images speak for themselves. The biggest problem is that all the bands are either unsigned or with an indie label.

I have an upcoming assignment for a guy that I know is "comfortable" meaning he drives a porsche boxter and owns a computer company or two. So at first I thought, well, maybe I should charge $50 to come down and take some shots of him and his wife (they're in a band) and then he can buy prints if he wants or I could come up with some sort of price if he wants to use it for the web (another question).

And then I started thinking, all the time I spend going through the photos, the poses, everything, and $50 seems like a penny. I guess all I can really do is ask if $150 is ok, I just feel like I'm either going to offend or seem like I'm trying to pad my pockets so to speak since I know he's rich.

aaaargh.

GREAPER

50 bucks for you to go to them and shoot etc... That aint much.

Try thinking of it this way...

40-75 bucks an hour, including travel time and post processing time. 40 cents a mile travel (probably low w gas prices where they are). If you start thinking about the value of your time compared to a simple wage you realize most of us are willing to work in the photography business for next to nothing. If you worked as an employee of a studio, and they sent you on location to do a shoot, what do you think they would charge?

Their plumber charges them a bit more than that guarenteed. I bet they pay more than 50 bucks to get their grass cut.

David_S85

digital faerie wrote:

oh, wow, thank you all for the feedback. and herein lies my conundrum. I know I'm worth a lot at this point (TIME ALONE), and hopefully the images speak for themselves.

First, listen to Shay Stephens. He is there already with both feet in. Look at his website and the prices for his range of services. And he's only been doing this professionally for about two years now. But he's real good at it, and by looking at just a portion of your images, you are also ready for the bigger scene of photography as a business.



DF, what you just wrote above says a lot. You have just automatically graduated to another plane of business reasoning once you have figured this out. You have a lot to offer, and you are willing now to charge good money for it. Good for you. "I know I'm worth a lot at this point" are the magic words.



Now, here's a story which doesn't relate to photography, but I've carried it with me since 1981. Gus was my next door business neighbor. Gus owned the McDonald's next to my bicycle store. Gus was a millionaire many many times over, but what he said once to me hit home like a bullet. It was about someting trivial, but yet at the very core of business. It was about a cup of soda. I simply asked, "Gus, I see that the large Coke is now 99 cents (remember, 1981 here).

"Yes, it went up." I asked, "Do the syrup cannisters cost more now?" "Why of course they do - they cost more every year, but that's not the point. The real point is that we have a drink, and they get thirsty, so they buy it." I asked what a cup of soda costs him. That's where the real lesson was that day.

"The most expensive thing about selling soda is the cost of electricity to make the ice. Behind that, is the cost of the paper cup, and then the cost of the syrup. Then there's the handling time (4 or 5 seconds per serving), and the other costs of operating the biz amortized down to all those hundreds of thousands of items served each month."

"OK," I said, "so the serving of soda costs you....?"

"About 3 or 4 cents, I guess. But remember, they're thirsty when they order it."

The margin on that 99 cent soda was about 95%. That's a figure that I'll bet drug dealers could only dream to collect.

The moral of this is: Don't be afraid to charge what you think the market can bear. If you feel you're worth it, charging for it and collecting it will be that much more easy.

digital faerie

all of you are so right.....I need to have a good talk with my calculator, heart to microchip

I just got a scary point brought up to me. Please read this excerpt from one of the guys in Die Maschine (they're the ones that have an "in" guy at Warner Bros. and my artwork is plastered all over their stuff, with more on the way)
~~~~~

"I understand how it all works...I've had two years of Copyright and Entertainment Law...

SO, let's say they want to front $200,000 for a two-three album deal...they may put a million or more into just one record- production, promotion, producer fees, etc...usually, the label will set up photo shoots with no regard to who the artist wants to shoot...sometimes they agree if the work is good...yours is...And, if they use your work on any release they will pay you up front for the rights to the piece, meaning they will own the picture, but you can still display the picture (public performance) but can no longer sell it...usually, there is a seperate contract for that stuff and another world...If, and that's a BIG IF, Warner wants to do anything with this record, you can rest assured you will get some $$ for these pics...If we get $200,000 it will be split between Mike and I and you will receive most likely $10,000 from each of us for the pics...not bad for a couple hours work. If Warner decides to use the album as is, minus audio re-production, you will most likely get paid by them, recouped by us...and then be our freelance photog either payed by us or them...all contractual through the Devil of course. In a nutshell, that's what we're facing, the big Monster and trying to push our art...
We can talk all this business shit later...I'm scared enough as it is to face it IF and when it comes...But, don't worry, out of all the photogs we've come in contact with, you're the one...
And the cool thing is that it's going to a lot of other places in the business. I'll explain it all later..."
~~~~
not sure what the "other places in the business" part is yet but I'm meeting with them face to face this weekend.

I guess the thing that scares me the most is preciselyl what I just underlined. No longer owning my work. that just makes my stomach turn over. I can imagine Warner will say, either this is the deal or we'll use another photographer. :bash

btw, thanks for all the additional feedback, you're being a huge help and I need that push to just take what I want. Has anyone ever dealt with a major label company before? Kevin from the band put it well "the devil himself", yup, that pretty much sums it up.

Shay Stephens

It sounds like the record label negotiates for a copyright buyout or exclusive use rights, you retain the copyright or at least can continue to use the image for self promotion (big big plus). So if the price is right, and it sounds like it will be, then granting exclusive rights is no big deal. Do it. Do it with a smile

The problem usually comes from giving exclusive use right for nothing or for a mere pittance. But if you are getting paid well for it, there is no shame or harm from selling the copyright or granting exclusive use rights. And then, use that image for self promotion and pimp it so hard the earth shakes!!!

digital faerie wrote:

I guess the thing that scares me the most is preciselyl what I just underlined. No longer owning my work. that just makes my stomach turn over. I can imagine Warner will say, either this is the deal or we'll use another photographer. :bash

btw, thanks for all the additional feedback, you're being a huge help and I need that push to just take what I want. Has anyone ever dealt with a major label company before? Kevin from the band put it well "the devil himself", yup, that pretty much sums it up.

mercphoto

digital faerie wrote:

I guess the thing that scares me the most is preciselyl what I just underlined. No longer owning my work. that just makes my stomach turn over.

Shay's right. If the price is right, don't fret over it. However, exclusive use should be expensive for the customer, and a copyright buy-out even more so.

Shay also had good advice that is resonating with me when he said that the guitar maker, the drum maker, the amp maker, none of them offered their goods on-the-cheap because it was a new band without much money. Why should the photographer be any different? Its resonating with me because I fell into that very trap with a brand-new local kart track. Geez, looking back, I don't think they got a break on rent... or flags... or barriers... or the PA system...

Now that makes MY stomach turn over.

digital faerie

mercphoto wrote:

Shay's right. If the price is right, don't fret over it. However, exclusive use should be expensive for the customer, and a copyright buy-out even more so.

Shay also had good advice that is resonating with me when he said that the guitar maker, the drum maker, the amp maker, none of them offered their goods on-the-cheap because it was a new band without much money. Why should the photographer be any different? Its resonating with me because I fell into that very trap with a brand-new local kart track. Geez, looking back, I don't think they got a break on rent... or flags... or barriers... or the PA system...

Now that makes MY stomach turn over.

you are 100% right. ok, I just need to "grow a set" and get with it, !

thanks guys, and Shay, you are the best.

Kagan

Completely different scenario but I will never forget what my first manager at the big box retailer I work at told me. I was very good at selling the 'middle priced" item. Never pushed hard for the high dollar item(because I thought it was too high) and never pushed the low-priced because it was usually trash. He told me one day this: "Never sell to a customer based on whats in YOUR pocket." I took his advice and quit trying to sell that high priced item to ME and started selling it to THEM. THEM is willing to spend alot more than I am on stuff hehe. Its never failed me. They may not buy the highest priced but they are aware of the features etc. More often than not though they buy it. Especially in the age of plastic payment. DF maybe YOU wont pay 150/250/500 bucks for your services. Someone else may very well pay thousands. The other thing that guy told me to regarding dumping slow moving stuff on other stores..."Always someone out there stupider than you are"

digital faerie wrote:

you are 100% right. ok, I just need to "grow a set" and get with it, !

thanks guys, and Shay, you are the best.

rahmonster

DF I just had a thought. This might not help now as this thread is a bit old...But bands rely on publicity and how their fans see them, just as much as the do their music. And if you are their photographer, well in a way then its YOUR eyes that are putting them forward to th publics eyes (I'm really hoping you catch my drift here I may be rambling). They are trying to let people know who they are, and you are the one doing that. So in my humble little opinion....You are worth a whole bunch. And the double that bunch because you have extreme talent and your shots are so brilliant, and then adda little more, just because you are an artistthumb

Don't worry about being modest offending anyone with the price you are asking, because then you run the risk of undermining yourself which would be a terrible shame. The way I see it, the band needs your art, just as much as they need their amplifiers ( you get it? like amp carries sound, you covey images..never mind).


Having said all that I have never been paid to take photos so...

good luck:D