I recently watched an online webinar from PPA from another professional talking about how with most weddings her sales time is up to 2 years after the wedding. That was pretty interesting to hear, but the more I thought about it, the more I found it was true with my past clients, I didn't realize it was the norm though. Many couples have a lot going on in their life right after the wedding, honeymoon, moving, getting settled in a new home / apartment, if apartment, then saving for the down payment for home, etc. Many times spending money on photos is lower on the priorities than some other things. I have had people come back for prints, albums, etc 2 years later.
Another point that hasn't really been made is to embed your copyright info into the file via lightroom or photoshop. Not going to stop a minor violation but if someone passes a file onto someone else and then they try to use it in a commercial manner through a printer, etc who knows to check its worth the time to do. Also FYI you can create a pdf with password enable printing, etc with photoshop (CS2, CS3, maybe earlier) you don't necessarily need acrobat.
"A photo is like a hamburger. You can get one from McDonalds for $1, one from Chili's for $5, or one from Ruth's Chris for $15. You usually get what you pay for, but don't expect a Ruth's Chris burger at a McDonalds price, if you want that, go cook it yourself." - me
But why would you mark up the prints on SM when you've already given them the originals?
1. I've sold the copyrights to the B&G, not Aunt Ellie who buys from the SM gallery.
2. I still spend time retouching the images if they order and my time is billable (eg print markup)
3. If my prints online are .19, and Walgreens are .19, there certainly isn't any perceived benefit of buying mine. Personally, I'd rather go to the corner store rather than order something online and wait anyday. But if my print is more, the customer has to ask themselves whether they want the premium product, or the cheap one.
1. I've sold the copyrights to the B&G, not Aunt Ellie who buys from the SM gallery.
Is that exactly how its worded to the B&G? Because if you've sold the copyright, you no longer have any rights to the images any more, including the ability to sell to Aunt Ellie. Rather, the B&G now have that right. In fact, they'd have the rights to do anything they want, and be able to restrict you in any manner they wish, if they truly have bought the copyright.
I suspect this is not really what you sold them however.
Is that exactly how its worded to the B&G? Because if you've sold the copyright, you no longer have any rights to the images any more, including the ability to sell to Aunt Ellie. Rather, the B&G now have that right. In fact, they'd have the rights to do anything they want, and be able to restrict you in any manner they wish, if they truly have bought the copyright.
I suspect this is not really what you sold them however.
Sorry, as earlier in this thread I've gone in to detail, I've sold them personal reprint licenses. Which can also be considered a copyright permission, but I do realize I misspoke in my quick response!
I recently watched an online webinar from PPA from another professional talking about how with most weddings her sales time is up to 2 years after the wedding. That was pretty interesting to hear, but the more I thought about it, the more I found it was true with my past clients, I didn't realize it was the norm though. Many couples have a lot going on in their life right after the wedding, honeymoon, moving, getting settled in a new home / apartment, if apartment, then saving for the down payment for home, etc. Many times spending money on photos is lower on the priorities than some other things. I have had people come back for prints, albums, etc 2 years later.
Another point that hasn't really been made is to embed your copyright info into the file via lightroom or photoshop. Not going to stop a minor violation but if someone passes a file onto someone else and then they try to use it in a commercial manner through a printer, etc who knows to check its worth the time to do. Also FYI you can create a pdf with password enable printing, etc with photoshop (CS2, CS3, maybe earlier) you don't necessarily need acrobat.
hmm, that's a good point as well. I wish I could have participated in that webinar! I need to pay more attention when I get those emails.
also, how do you embed your information using CS3?
2. I still spend time retouching the images if they order and my time is billable (eg print markup)
Can't argue with that. What you've really done is what many sports photographers do in posting an unedited proof, and then only edit those for which prints are ordered. It makes perfect sense when you've got hundreds of images, but only a few get ordered.
3. If my prints online are .19, and Walgreens are .19, there certainly isn't any perceived benefit of buying mine. Personally, I'd rather go to the corner store rather than order something online and wait anyday. But if my print is more, the customer has to ask themselves whether they want the premium product, or the cheap one.
Not the right or only way, just my $0.02...
I suppose that depends upon the nature of the customer. If they are fairly quality-conscious types, they would probably willing to pay 20 - 50% more for high-quality prints, rather than the average ones that flickr and walmart sell. Then again, there are some who simply think they are getting better quality because they are paying more -- on that count, SM wins. Chances, that when given a choice of printing at cost on SM or walmart, most will go with walmart. But in cases where selling the digital file exhausts all possibility of additional sales, I go ahead and give them the option to print on SM with no markup once they've bought the full size. I have not had anyone take me up on that offer yet.
If the bride or groom has the digital file, chances are that it will be shared by email with all thier family and friends.
Not necessarily. Some of my highest grossing sales are from weddings where the B&G got a CD with the wedding package. Then again, I've had brides upload that CD to an unnamed photo-sharing/print house and my print sales are $0. But more often than not, I sell prints to guests, parents, and even the B&G themselves.
Can't argue with that. What you've really done is what many sports photographers do in posting an unedited proof, and then only edit those for which prints are ordered. It makes perfect sense when you've got hundreds of images, but only a few get ordered.
Exactly. I make clear there are three stages: Proof, Final, and additional Retouching (major acne/skinnifying if necessary/applicable.) Showing them examples of all 3 upfront helps.
I suppose that depends upon the nature of the customer. If they are fairly quality-conscious types, they would probably willing to pay 20 - 50% more for high-quality prints, rather than the average ones that flickr and walmart sell. Then again, there are some who simply think they are getting better quality because they are paying more -- on that count, SM wins. Chances, that when given a choice of printing at cost on SM or walmart, most will go with walmart. But in cases where selling the digital file exhausts all possibility of additional sales, I go ahead and give them the option to print on SM with no markup once they've bought the full size. I have not had anyone take me up on that offer yet.
You are right that if they have the files, and SM costs the same, they will definitely not see a benefit with ordering thru SM. Price (in the art world) really does indicate a perception of quality. If I didn't think SM was a better product, I would choose a different lab. But they're not just buying the prints. Not to be weird, but art is not a commodity. I really don't care to sell 4x6es and 5x7s. But folks who want large wall prints....they either do or they don't....and I need to do a better job selling them (dedicating my den into a sales room this year is a goal of mine, and I believe that will make a HUGE difference vs. the Starbucks sales meetings) but regardless, I have yet to hear of a client who printed a 16x20 at WalMart. Let's face it, once the local photo labs have to outsource a print (usually larger than 8x10), it becomes almost as expensive, time consuming and inconvenient as ordering from me.....but without my personal touch and guarantee.
I go ahead and give them the option to print on SM with no markup once they've bought the full size. I have not had anyone take me up on that offer yet.
I sort of do that- I give the Bride and Groom an option to purchase a 4 x 6 lustre of all their prints for a nice round number (like $300) It encourages them to get the photos printed in nice quality (which makes me look better) and it makes it affordable for them to get one of each. (which is really important in the long run) then it opens the door for them to get other sizes of other prints from my smug mug site. Most of my clients get both the disk and the $300 Bride and Groom special. I make just a little money for the prints, and they are very happy with the quality of them. Win win, I think. Meanwhile Aunt Suzie can order whatever she wants full price. (and she does)
The only downside of it is that I have to personally order the 4 x 6 and include shipping in that consideration, so I only make about $150 for them. (Beats the alternative, which is zero when they make their prints at Walmart!)
I sort of do that- I give the Bride and Groom an option to purchase a 4 x 6 lustre of all their prints for a nice round number (like $300) It encourages them to get the photos printed in nice quality (which makes me look better) and it makes it affordable for them to get one of each. (which is really important in the long run) then it opens the door for them to get other sizes of other prints from my smug mug site. Most of my clients get both the disk and the $300 Bride and Groom special. I make just a little money for the prints, and they are very happy with the quality of them. Win win, I think. Meanwhile Aunt Suzie can order whatever she wants full price. (and she does)
The only downside of it is that I have to personally order the 4 x 6 and include shipping in that consideration, so I only make about $150 for them. (Beats the alternative, which is zero when they make their prints at Walmart!)
I think this is a great idea to provide these to the B&G as an added "benefit". Do you imprint your logo on the prints? just curious.
I think this is a great idea to provide these to the B&G as an added "benefit". Do you imprint your logo on the prints? just curious.
No, I do sneak my contact info on the SM backprinting, copyright area though. I don't know, does Smugmug do printed watermarked (whatever it might be called)prints? Or would you have to open up each file and do it yourself? Interesting thought....
I sort of do that- I give the Bride and Groom an option to purchase a 4 x 6 lustre of all their prints for a nice round number (like $300) It encourages them to get the photos printed in nice quality (which makes me look better) and it makes it affordable for them to get one of each. (which is really important in the long run) then it opens the door for them to get other sizes of other prints from my smug mug site. Most of my clients get both the disk and the $300 Bride and Groom special. I make just a little money for the prints, and they are very happy with the quality of them. Win win, I think. Meanwhile Aunt Suzie can order whatever she wants full price. (and she does)
The only downside of it is that I have to personally order the 4 x 6 and include shipping in that consideration, so I only make about $150 for them. (Beats the alternative, which is zero when they make their prints at Walmart!)
seems like this is how it's going to turn out for me too. The bride wants her 4x6s on a disk, but she's already said she's picking out the 8X10s she wants to order directly for site too.
hmm, that's a good point as well. I wish I could have participated in that webinar! I need to pay more attention when I get those emails.
also, how do you embed your information using CS3?
With a file open, from the file menu, file info. You can record it as an action and do a folder of files easily. I actually do it in lightroom upon import to lightroom, that as well as adding keywords.
"A photo is like a hamburger. You can get one from McDonalds for $1, one from Chili's for $5, or one from Ruth's Chris for $15. You usually get what you pay for, but don't expect a Ruth's Chris burger at a McDonalds price, if you want that, go cook it yourself." - me
I don't want to sound like a party pooper here, but as one old russian saying goes, "the locks can only keep honest people away". I mean, how much efforts does it take to make a copy of the original CD and "forget" to copy license/copyright files onto it?
I have been using a software, called FlipAlbum pro, that allows for reading a CD/DVD but stops the copying of it.....if I put in the security mode before buring....it is also what I use to make photo albums that flip just like a book....so there are securty measures that can be put into place to slow down and detur the flagrant copying of copyrighted material.....I reall wish flipablum was supported by SM/DGRIN as that would be cool as Hades on a frozen summers night in December.....sooooo cool:D
, does Smugmug do printed watermarked (whatever it might be called)prints? Or would you have to open up each file and do it yourself? Interesting thought....
I do this in PSCS....don't think I can get it done in LightRoom, but not sure, haven't played with LR2.0 enuff yet...........and I place it approx 1.5 inces in from right corner and 1.5 inches up from right bottom.....that way it doesn't crop out nor is it covered up by most matting.............
You are a trip. So glad you joined us to spice our world up with your awesome personality. :tuesday
this is so simple its ridiculous. I used to include a signed letter, but clients would pitch it not thinking they needed it, then call me freaking out when they're at the counter and I don't have time to deal. So when I gather folders of images to put on the disc, I also create a plain text file (Using Notepad in Microsoft operating systems) called "COPYRIGHT READ ME". I simply drag this file on to the disc before burning.
Contains something like this:
All images copyright 2008 by xxxxx Photography, address phone number etc. A Personal Use release has been granted to John & Mary Smith for personal reprints. The images may not be copied, altered, distributed or sold in any fashion. This notice explicitly prohibits the commercial use or transfer of images. For any questions contact me at xxx-xxxx.
Hope this helps!
Hmm, this points out how easy it would be for anyone to take copyright material to a lab, and present a notepad typed letter as evidence they are allowed to print the images. Anyone can type up a notepad document and put it on a cd. Very easy to get around the copyright issue.
A scanned letter with a signature would be a bit better, harder to fake.
A scanned letter with a signature would be a bit better, harder to fake.
Sure. One can type a letter in Word on a heavy paper and provide a very nice, royal looking signature. Will a poor minimum-wage clerk at Costco/Walgreen/etc. be able to tell it's not a a letter from the person who actually owns a copyright?
Once you put your hi-res images on a cd you can forget about everything else. The important thing is to ensure they don't use them in any commercial way - for which you have to watch yourself...
For instance, Sid did
Sure. One can type a letter in Word on a heavy paper and provide a very nice, royal looking signature. Will a poor minimum-wage clerk at Costco/Walgreen/etc. be able to tell it's not a a letter from the person who actually owns a copyright?
Once you put your hi-res images on a cd you can forget about everything else. The important thing is to ensure they don't use them in any commercial way - for which you have to watch yourself...
For instance, Sid did
Its more concerning that all you have to do is put a notepad document on a cd to get pass the lab.
Comments
Another point that hasn't really been made is to embed your copyright info into the file via lightroom or photoshop. Not going to stop a minor violation but if someone passes a file onto someone else and then they try to use it in a commercial manner through a printer, etc who knows to check its worth the time to do. Also FYI you can create a pdf with password enable printing, etc with photoshop (CS2, CS3, maybe earlier) you don't necessarily need acrobat.
1. I've sold the copyrights to the B&G, not Aunt Ellie who buys from the SM gallery.
2. I still spend time retouching the images if they order and my time is billable (eg print markup)
3. If my prints online are .19, and Walgreens are .19, there certainly isn't any perceived benefit of buying mine. Personally, I'd rather go to the corner store rather than order something online and wait anyday. But if my print is more, the customer has to ask themselves whether they want the premium product, or the cheap one.
Not the right or only way, just my $0.02...
50mm 1.4, 85mm 1.8, 24-70 2.8L, 35mm 1.4L, 135mm f2L
ST-E2 Transmitter + (3) 580 EXII + radio poppers
I suspect this is not really what you sold them however.
A former sports shooter
Follow me at: https://www.flickr.com/photos/bjurasz/
My Etsy store: https://www.etsy.com/shop/mercphoto?ref=hdr_shop_menu
Sorry, as earlier in this thread I've gone in to detail, I've sold them personal reprint licenses. Which can also be considered a copyright permission, but I do realize I misspoke in my quick response!
50mm 1.4, 85mm 1.8, 24-70 2.8L, 35mm 1.4L, 135mm f2L
ST-E2 Transmitter + (3) 580 EXII + radio poppers
hmm, that's a good point as well. I wish I could have participated in that webinar! I need to pay more attention when I get those emails.
also, how do you embed your information using CS3?
www.pictureyourworld.net
http://pictureyourworldphotography.blogspot.com/
http://www.onedayonepicture.com
If the bride or groom has the digital file, chances are that it will be shared by email with all thier family and friends.
Can't argue with that. What you've really done is what many sports photographers do in posting an unedited proof, and then only edit those for which prints are ordered. It makes perfect sense when you've got hundreds of images, but only a few get ordered.
I suppose that depends upon the nature of the customer. If they are fairly quality-conscious types, they would probably willing to pay 20 - 50% more for high-quality prints, rather than the average ones that flickr and walmart sell. Then again, there are some who simply think they are getting better quality because they are paying more -- on that count, SM wins. Chances, that when given a choice of printing at cost on SM or walmart, most will go with walmart. But in cases where selling the digital file exhausts all possibility of additional sales, I go ahead and give them the option to print on SM with no markup once they've bought the full size. I have not had anyone take me up on that offer yet.
Not necessarily. Some of my highest grossing sales are from weddings where the B&G got a CD with the wedding package. Then again, I've had brides upload that CD to an unnamed photo-sharing/print house and my print sales are $0. But more often than not, I sell prints to guests, parents, and even the B&G themselves.
Exactly. I make clear there are three stages: Proof, Final, and additional Retouching (major acne/skinnifying if necessary/applicable.) Showing them examples of all 3 upfront helps.
You are right that if they have the files, and SM costs the same, they will definitely not see a benefit with ordering thru SM. Price (in the art world) really does indicate a perception of quality. If I didn't think SM was a better product, I would choose a different lab. But they're not just buying the prints. Not to be weird, but art is not a commodity. I really don't care to sell 4x6es and 5x7s. But folks who want large wall prints....they either do or they don't....and I need to do a better job selling them (dedicating my den into a sales room this year is a goal of mine, and I believe that will make a HUGE difference vs. the Starbucks sales meetings) but regardless, I have yet to hear of a client who printed a 16x20 at WalMart. Let's face it, once the local photo labs have to outsource a print (usually larger than 8x10), it becomes almost as expensive, time consuming and inconvenient as ordering from me.....but without my personal touch and guarantee.
50mm 1.4, 85mm 1.8, 24-70 2.8L, 35mm 1.4L, 135mm f2L
ST-E2 Transmitter + (3) 580 EXII + radio poppers
I sort of do that- I give the Bride and Groom an option to purchase a 4 x 6 lustre of all their prints for a nice round number (like $300) It encourages them to get the photos printed in nice quality (which makes me look better) and it makes it affordable for them to get one of each. (which is really important in the long run) then it opens the door for them to get other sizes of other prints from my smug mug site. Most of my clients get both the disk and the $300 Bride and Groom special. I make just a little money for the prints, and they are very happy with the quality of them. Win win, I think. Meanwhile Aunt Suzie can order whatever she wants full price. (and she does)
The only downside of it is that I have to personally order the 4 x 6 and include shipping in that consideration, so I only make about $150 for them. (Beats the alternative, which is zero when they make their prints at Walmart!)
I think this is a great idea to provide these to the B&G as an added "benefit". Do you imprint your logo on the prints? just curious.
50mm 1.4, 85mm 1.8, 24-70 2.8L, 35mm 1.4L, 135mm f2L
ST-E2 Transmitter + (3) 580 EXII + radio poppers
seems like this is how it's going to turn out for me too. The bride wants her 4x6s on a disk, but she's already said she's picking out the 8X10s she wants to order directly for site too.
www.pictureyourworld.net
http://pictureyourworldphotography.blogspot.com/
http://www.onedayonepicture.com
With a file open, from the file menu, file info. You can record it as an action and do a folder of files easily. I actually do it in lightroom upon import to lightroom, that as well as adding keywords.
I have been using a software, called FlipAlbum pro, that allows for reading a CD/DVD but stops the copying of it.....if I put in the security mode before buring....it is also what I use to make photo albums that flip just like a book....so there are securty measures that can be put into place to slow down and detur the flagrant copying of copyrighted material.....I reall wish flipablum was supported by SM/DGRIN as that would be cool as Hades on a frozen summers night in December.....sooooo cool:D
I do this in PSCS....don't think I can get it done in LightRoom, but not sure, haven't played with LR2.0 enuff yet...........and I place it approx 1.5 inces in from right corner and 1.5 inches up from right bottom.....that way it doesn't crop out nor is it covered up by most matting.............
Hmm, this points out how easy it would be for anyone to take copyright material to a lab, and present a notepad typed letter as evidence they are allowed to print the images. Anyone can type up a notepad document and put it on a cd. Very easy to get around the copyright issue.
A scanned letter with a signature would be a bit better, harder to fake.
Once you put your hi-res images on a cd you can forget about everything else. The important thing is to ensure they don't use them in any commercial way - for which you have to watch yourself...
For instance, Sid did
Its more concerning that all you have to do is put a notepad document on a cd to get pass the lab.