Forgot about this: as an option, instead of dialing down the flash simply put 1/4 or 1/2 CTO gel onto your flash. It will "eat" 1 or 2 stops and make the fill light looks more natural (less "flashy") ...
Wha Wha What?! Turn DOWN the FEC in BRIGHT sunlight? I would have never guessed to do that. I will have to play around with that apparently. We did have the shoot planned for about 3:30 in the afternoon, but then he wanted to change it to either later in the evening, or earlier in the morning. Due to the fact that I'm 45 miles away, and I had a house guest, there was no way I was going to make it down there earlier, and the house guest had to leave my house around 5:30, so I couldn't do it later. So we settled on noon, bad time to do it, and I didn't want to do it at that time, but it was the only option for that day. This was a very...shall we say unorganized shoot on his part. Moving days, moving times, extremely last minute...
Thanks Scott for the tips, always much appreciated and lessons learned.
The Canon flash system will attempt to set the flash to match the ambient if the FEC is set to zero (0). That means the flash will be as bright as the sun and your subject will look "flashed". This is not a goodness. Knocking it down some is a much better way to go.
Forgot about this: as an option, instead of dialing down the flash simply put 1/4 or 1/2 CTO gel onto your flash. It will "eat" 1 or 2 stops and make the fill light looks more natural (less "flashy") ...
Ummmm ..... Yes, the CTO will warm the light from the flash and it will eat 1 or 2 stops of light in the process. But, the flash/camera combination will still attempt to illuminate your subject with the same amount of light. That's part of the reason for the pre-flash and the ETT-L system - to get the "correct" amount of light from the flash, bounced off the subject, and back to the camera.
Now then, if you are shooting manual flash, none of the above (except for the CTO eating light) applies. You just have to set the power of the flash to produce the amount of light you want / need / desire using any number of different techniques (but that's a subject for a different thread).
The Canon flash system will attempt to set the flash to match the ambient if the FEC is set to zero (0). That means the flash will be as bright as the sun and your subject will look "flashed". This is not a goodness. Knocking it down some is a much better way to go.
Ummmm ..... Yes, the CTO will warm the light from the flash and it will eat 1 or 2 stops of light in the process. But, the flash/camera combination will still attempt to illuminate your subject with the same amount of light. That's part of the reason for the pre-flash and the ETT-L system - to get the "correct" amount of light from the flash, bounced off the subject, and back to the camera.
Now then, if you are shooting manual flash, none of the above (except for the CTO eating light) applies. You just have to set the power of the flash to produce the amount of light you want / need / desire using any number of different techniques (but that's a subject for a different thread).
Yes, that is correct. I was talking manual. The only times I use flash in ETTL mode is when I shoot candis in the parties, so I wasn't even thinking of using ETTL for serious portraiture. Mea culpa, thanks for catching it, Scott!
Yes, that is correct. I was talking manual. The only times I use flash in ETTL mode is when I shoot candis in the parties, so I wasn't even thinking of using ETTL for serious portraiture. Mea culpa, thanks for catching it, Scott!
Please Help...
Ok, so responses I got were that it looked like I took a photo of a scenery and stuck the kid in there. Obviously because I was using way too much light.
Is there anything I can do to fix these so they don't look like this? Basically the kid wasn't happy with any of the photos. Which just instantly puts me in a bad mood. He's got my grandma and uncle calling me telling me what I did wrong, and all this other stuff about other people's senior portraits, how much they cost, etc...
The gallery can be found here, the password is cowboy09. Please take a moment to look over all the photos from the day and offer ANY advice you have on how to make these not look like I stuck him into the photo...
I don't know what to do otherwise. Give him his money back? :-(, partial refund? I dunno...I quit.
Ok, so responses I got were that it looked like I took a photo of a scenery and stuck the kid in there. Obviously because I was using way too much light.
Is there anything I can do to fix these so they don't look like this? Basically the kid wasn't happy with any of the photos. Which just instantly puts me in a bad mood. He's got my grandma and uncle calling me telling me what I did wrong, and all this other stuff about other people's senior portraits, how much they cost, etc...
The gallery can be found here, the password is cowboy09. Please take a moment to look over all the photos from the day and offer ANY advice you have on how to make these not look like I stuck him into the photo...
I don't know what to do otherwise. Give him his money back? :-(, partial refund? I dunno...I quit.
Bryce, I think if there is one person you gotta please and listen to - it's your customer, that very kid. What did he say? Same stuff as we did? Apparently he was vocal enough if he managed to explain your grandma and uncle what exactly you did "wrong"...
Bryce, I think if there is one person you gotta please and listen to - it's your customer, that very kid. What did he say? Same stuff as we did? Apparently he was vocal enough if he managed to explain your grandma and uncle what exactly you did "wrong"...
I haven't talked to him yet, I'm scared to. Apparently he talked to my uncle and showed the family the photos, and they all agreed that it looked like I stuck him in afterwards. From what my uncle said, he didn't like any of them. Looking back through them, they ALL don't look like I stuck him in the photo, only a few actually look that way for me. I dunno...I think I see things differently. My uncle also said that one of the horse shots it looked like the horse's head was like 8 feet long, I went back through them, and had no idea what he was talking about, I couldn't see it.
I don't know what to do otherwise. Give him his money back? :-(, partial refund? I dunno...I quit.
From a business standpoint...I would call the kid directly. The fewer people that the info goes through - the better chance you stand of understanding exactly what he wants. Apologize to him and ask him to give you some example photos of looks that he likes to see what his personal taste is (e.g. does he prefer a softer shot with a lot of bokeh). If you can't fix them in pp, you can offer to reshoot at a better time of day. That's my 2 cents.
From a business standpoint...I would call the kid directly. The fewer people that the info goes through - the better chance you stand of understanding exactly what he wants. Apologize to him and ask him to give you some example photos of looks that he likes to see what his personal taste is. If you can't fix them in pp, you can offer to reshoot at a better time of day. That's my 2 cents.
I'm pretty sure I know what is wrong. I used too much flash, and it looks like I photoshopped him into the photo. I just need to know how to fix it. Obviously can't reshoot for the year book photo as it was due today for the year book. The kid started this process about 4 months too late. I really should have turned it down because a week to do everything is just going to cause problems. I will have to give him a call, but I just want to figure out exactly what I want to do about the situation before hand. Thanks for the input.
Ok, so responses I got were that it looked like I took a photo of a scenery and stuck the kid in there. Obviously because I was using way too much light.
Is there anything I can do to fix these so they don't look like this? Basically the kid wasn't happy with any of the photos. Which just instantly puts me in a bad mood. He's got my grandma and uncle calling me telling me what I did wrong, and all this other stuff about other people's senior portraits, how much they cost, etc...
The gallery can be found here, the password is cowboy09. Please take a moment to look over all the photos from the day and offer ANY advice you have on how to make these not look like I stuck him into the photo...
I don't know what to do otherwise. Give him his money back? :-(, partial refund? I dunno...I quit.
Haven't been to the gallery....however......you have a thread from a day or 2 ago about a cleint dogging on your pricing and needing pix yesterday for today.....Same Client??
First of all call your aunt and uncle and talk calibrated monitors....do not tell them that your not calibrated.....also if he has any photo software he may have played with your pix before printing...did he print to show aunt and uncle??? did he use their computer or his to show your work??
The ones you posted her are not so over coked that you should be able to save using some curves n PS or even going into the lab mode and doing some rework.....nicely mention that the other kids did not wait until the last few days of school to get photos done and that your normal turnaround is (what ever it is: 2 weeks, 3 weeks...what ever)...........my only real nit was in the "pondering" photo that he needed to be turned a bit more so that the pond was all that was behind him......not the highlines and road......
He could have tried a local photog and maybe he did and they wanted 2 or 3 times as much as you charged for the rush job.......I know photogs that will ask for 3-5 times as much for a short notice job.......
Personally I always ask have you been anywhere else if they look shocked and say no andit comes out believable then I will ask why they waited so long....if the reason seems reasonable then I will work with them.....if they just come off as lazy and cheap then I will hit with a huge short notice rush job charge........
if it looks like you need to refeund his money....do so, but not all of it.....make surte to keep some for gas and time.......if this is the 250 job.....give him 150 back and offer him 10 files aof his pick but also with the stipulation that you can use the images for advertizement.....if you give him ANY files for any reason....put your name on the pic just as if you signed it.....photoshop ahs a real cool cursive handwritten script that works great....my handwritting nver lookedso good until I used that, unfortunatly I do not remember which one it was as I now use a tablet and actually use my own signature.....do not make it as a copyright notice......just your signature.....if you use lightroom you can put copyright directly into the exif when importing, put a copy right notice on any disk you burn for him...on the label and a notice of copyright as a word or pdf file on the disk so it is there in blk/wht for all to read prior to printing....................
Yes, same client. Just trouble across the board...
He hasn't printed any photos yet. He just showed my uncle and family on a computer. I will quickly mention calibrated monitors, and also note that processing was super rushed due to his lack of planning ahead and photos like these need to be done WAY prior to graduation date as the other kids have. Highlines and road? I'm guessing highlines you mean the top of the trees/hills, and by road I'm guessing you mean the mustard seed fields in the back ground... I can crop it a bit down if that would help. Thanks for the other tips, I will talk to him and my uncle in those regards.
Regarding any photos I give him if I return the 150, I'll put my signature on each file in the bottom corner. I do have a copyright notice in the exif info for every photo i import into LR, so that is already there. If he takes the files to a printer, is the printer honestly going to look at that? I probably won't waste a disk for this kid, but rather just send an email with the photo. Should I give original size files or smaller files? say like max size 8x12?
Thanks so much Art for all you're help, always a great resource. MUCH appreciated.
Regarding any photos I give him if I return the 150, I'll put my signature on each file in the bottom corner. I do have a copyright notice in the exif info for every photo i import into LR, so that is already there. If he takes the files to a printer, is the printer honestly going to look at that? I probably won't waste a disk for this kid, but rather just send an email with the photo. Should I give original size files or smaller files? say like max size 8x12?
Thanks so much Art for all you're help, always a great resource. MUCH appreciated.
....I also put my contact info on the disk lable for same purpose.....I am currently using light scribe for labeling and runing my disks thru about 4 times for max contrast on gold disks............
Nikolai did a great job on that pic.....however I just did some sohots out in a field near me and my grass was just as BRIGHT green as yours.....so it isn't all that over cooked..................
Ask the client exactly what his nits are and if you feel so inclined to fix from as learning experience it would be good for you.....when workiing with people try to always be compassionate no matter how obstinate they are....at some point this senior will be "nailed" for his attitude....someone down th road will see your work and tell him just great they really look and make him fell so very little..........
ahhhh.......distorted horse face......he may have his monitor incorrectly set ......
Looks like you had beautiful settings and a cooperative subject. I hope this won't read too harshly... I think I see a couple of problems here that haven't been mentioned yet. Apologies in advance if you don't like my response.
I'm pretty sure I know what is wrong. I used too much flash, and it looks like I photoshopped him into the photo. I just need to know how to fix it.
Not just too much flash (and certainly there is), but too much direct on-camera flash. Makes him look like a cardboard cutout, because you've completely overpowered the dimensional ambient light with flat frontal lighting. Do you have a sync cable, and/or could you swivel the flash to bounce off a reflector?
Did you choose the settings, or did he? I ask because a lot of the photos seem to emphasize the setting more than the subject. I don't see any images of the typical head-and-shoulders variety that are used in most yearbooks, nor many that would show him very prominently in a smallish print (imagine making wallets out of these pics?). The long horse face image they mentioned was probably #40; measure the horse's right ear, and you'll see that it seems as long as the senior's head. And if they didn't care for that, they probably didn't care for the wide-angle truck shot in #19 either -- nor the way he looks dwarved in #21 and #22. He's a young adult, a rifle-totin' man, marking a significant milestone and leaving his childhood behind; don't make him look small.
As to "how to fix it," I would call him and ask what would fix it for him. "Hey, I've heard you're unhappy with the pics. Tell me, what didn't you like and what can I do to make it right?"
Based on what you've said about his complaints, I'd bet you're looking at a reshoot. I don't think you can fix the photos, because your flash blasted away the detail that would make him look like a real person in a real setting. He's not lit even close to the same way his environment is, so it's going to look fake no matter how much you dim or desaturate the images in Photoshop. You could try burning in shadows where there should be shadows... but the time that would take is probably greater than the time it would take to just reshoot with better lighting.
I will quickly mention calibrated monitors, and also note that processing was super rushed due to his lack of planning ahead and photos like these need to be done WAY prior to graduation date as the other kids have.
Family friend or not, and right or not... blaming the client's time requirements (which you accepted) for the problems resulting from your lighting technique may be a good way to make your first paid gig into your last.
I'll be the odd man out here and say that I don't mind the supersaturated colors at all; I think they're kinda neat, and they certainly emphasize the beauty of the settings. However, coupled with the flat overhead lighting on the environment and the flat frontal lighting on the subject, the colors do make these images look a bit cartoonish.
I'm sure you can work this out with the client, but you'll need to whip out your best patience and professionalism. And in my experience, there's absolutely no better advertising in any field than the rave reviews of a formerly dissatisfied client you've "turned." Good luck!
Wow. Nik, great job on those. Thank you. I'll have to play around with them a bit and see what I can do, after I talk with him and figure out what he is looking for specifically. All my edits were done in LR2 as I don't know a WHOLE lot about PS yet. I know just a tiny little bit, but not much. I know more of the controls in LR, where they are, and how to use them. So assuming he wants them re-worked, yet again, then I'll work on that and not give him any type of refund.
Will the PSD files show a history of your actions for each photo? THAT I would like to see, other wise, what would be a benefit of having the PSD file of that composite?
Art, I see your point, and an extremely valid one it is. Thank you. With this light scribe thing you talk about, that seems to be the type of disks itself or is it a program, or a combination of the two? How can I tell if my burner is light scribe enabled? I'm on a MacBook OSX v 10.5.7, if that is of any consequence. This is the info on my buner straight from my computers info center:
MATSHITA DVD-R UJ-857E:
Firmware Revision: ZF1E
Interconnect: ATAPI
Burn Support: Yes (Apple Shipping Drive)
Cache: 2048 KB
Reads DVD: Yes
CD-Write: -R, -RW
DVD-Write: -R, -R DL, -RW, +R, +R DL, +RW
Write Strategies: CD-TAO, CD-SAO, DVD-DAO
Media: Insert media and refresh to show available burn speeds
Thanks Art for, again, all your help and wisdom. It's a lot harder now as I just started my full time job again, so reshooting, re editing, making phone calls, etc...becomes a smaller and smaller time slot to be able to do so.
This is why I like landscapes, they don't give their opinion...
Looks like you had beautiful settings and a cooperative subject. I hope this won't read too harshly... I think I see a couple of problems here that haven't been mentioned yet. Apologies in advance if you don't like my response.
Not just too much flash (and certainly there is), but too much direct on-camera flash. Makes him look like a cardboard cutout, because you've completely overpowered the dimensional ambient light with flat frontal lighting. Do you have a sync cable, and/or could you swivel the flash to bounce off a reflector?
Did you choose the settings, or did he? I ask because a lot of the photos seem to emphasize the setting more than the subject. I don't see any images of the typical head-and-shoulders variety that are used in most yearbooks, nor many that would show him very prominently in a smallish print (imagine making wallets out of these pics?). The long horse face image they mentioned was probably #40; measure the horse's right ear, and you'll see that it seems as long as the senior's head. And if they didn't care for that, they probably didn't care for the wide-angle truck shot in #19 either -- nor the way he looks dwarved in #21 and #22. He's a young adult, a rifle-totin' man, marking a significant milestone and leaving his childhood behind; don't make him look small.
As to "how to fix it," I would call him and ask what would fix it for him. "Hey, I've heard you're unhappy with the pics. Tell me, what didn't you like and what can I do to make it right?"
Based on what you've said about his complaints, I'd bet you're looking at a reshoot. I don't think you can fix the photos, because your flash blasted away the detail that would make him look like a real person in a real setting. He's not lit even close to the same way his environment is, so it's going to look fake no matter how much you dim or desaturate the images in Photoshop. You could try burning in shadows where there should be shadows... but the time that would take is probably greater than the time it would take to just reshoot with better lighting.
Family friend or not, and right or not... blaming the client's time requirements (which you accepted) for the problems resulting from your lighting technique may be a good way to make your first paid gig into your last.
I'll be the odd man out here and say that I don't mind the supersaturated colors at all; I think they're kinda neat, and they certainly emphasize the beauty of the settings. However, coupled with the flat overhead lighting on the environment and the flat frontal lighting on the subject, the colors do make these images look a bit cartoonish.
I'm sure you can work this out with the client, but you'll need to whip out your best patience and professionalism. And in my experience, there's absolutely no better advertising in any field than the rave reviews of a formerly dissatisfied client you've "turned." Good luck!
First of all, may I say your user title is AWESOME! "I shoot kids". ok...now on to business.
You are right, I'm not the keenest to your response, but it is true, valid, and a seemingly more likely possibility. Not something I wanted to hear, but the truth. Thank you. The right news isn't always good news.
Regarding the lighting, I have two light stands and two ubrellas, 1 580 EXII flash and 1 420 EX flash. I have a camera bracket with a hot shoe mount cord, and use the 580 to trigger the 420 via IR. That is my only set up as of now. I don't know how to use the flash bracket yet as it's still cumbersum and I haven't played with it enough yet. Same goes for the light stands and umbrellas. I didn't want to waste this kids time by me setting up lights, moving them around, adjusting the power, figuring out the proper settings, etc...so I went with what I felt most comfortable with. Obviously that was the wrong choice, in MANY aspects. I'm hoping to take some lighting courses this fall, but obviously it's not fall yet, so that hasn't happened. I just don't have a whole lot of time to practice with it, nor someone to tell me (as I'm shooting) what I'm doing wrong or right, or pointers. I'm very hands on, so as people telling me ideas and what not on here is great, and has helped a lot in a lot of situation, sometimes (and I think lighting is one of those times) I just need to be there, with someone, learning.
He and his mom chose all the settings, pretty much had everything laid out before I even got there. I think they are the type of people that do A LOT of talking, but VERY little listening. It seems that everything I said was not heard by either one of them, however their mouths didn't stop moving. I didn't want to do a noon shoot, but he moved the appointment around like 3 times, I told them what came with the package, but they argued about it later...AHHH!
I totally see what you mean in regards to head/sholders shots, or how they would look in smallish prints. I guess that's something that I just didn't think about as I was nervous enough about doing the shoot and making sure the photos turned out good, and everything else, I completely passed over the fact that most senior photos are the head and shoulders type so as to emphasize the person, and still look good in smaller prints. I most certainly see your points about the 19, 21, and 22 photos, however he actually is a rather small guy, with a huge truck, so it's not THAT big of a stretch, but I see your point.
If the photos are to the point of doing a re shoot, it's too late to do it for the year book, as that photo was already submitted today, he chose #48 in the gallery. So unless he wants to re shoot the photos to either a) get his money worth, or b) have photos that he likes for grad announcements or whatever, I don't think a re shoot is gonna happen, and I'll end up just giving 150 or so of his money back.
I understand my acceptance of the short notice shoot, however I was not made aware of how soon the photo was due for the year book (my fault obviously for not checking), I just knew that he was doing it really late. I had planned on spending about a week editing the photos, then he asked if he could expect them in 3 days, then I ended up getting finished (the first go around) in 1.5 days.
The colors in the gallery now are not the original "super saturated" photos I had oringally edited. All these were brought down a bit, which I'm not a fan of personally, but everyone I talked to said they should be brought down, so I did. They just look extremely dull to me, and not vibrant at all. And as Art said, he took some shots of a green field near his house, and the grass was bright green simliar to my shots. So I could actually only bring it down so much before I started to actually de saturate the original photo.
Thanks for the tips, adivce, everything. Much appreciated. (even though some of it was not what I wanted to hear...)
Wow. Nik, great job on those. Thank you. I'll have to play around with them a bit and see what I can do, after I talk with him and figure out what he is looking for specifically. All my edits were done in LR2 as I don't know a WHOLE lot about PS yet. I know just a tiny little bit, but not much. I know more of the controls in LR, where they are, and how to use them. So assuming he wants them re-worked, yet again, then I'll work on that and not give him any type of refund.
Will the PSD files show a history of your actions for each photo? THAT I would like to see, other wise, what would be a benefit of having the PSD file of that composite?
Yes, PSD would have all the layers. I didn't actually do any local correction (with any sort of selection involved), everything was done globally in adjustment layers, so everything that I did would be most likely also achievable via ACR5.x or LR2.x
Good that he picked something he likes for the yearbook; that takes your time pressure off. Senior pics are for more than the yearbook -- they're for mom to remember when kiddo goes off to college, for kiddo to swap with his pals and girlfriends, and to share with the grandkids (mom's and, later, kiddo's) someday when he's older, balding, and flabby. So they might really like to have a reshoot.
If you do one, get them on your side first by involving them in the troubleshooting. "Oh, so it's the cardboard cutout look that you don't like? OK, we can fix that if we have the sun at a different angle when we shoot." "Oh, you don't like the way you look like a little kid with your truck? I can fix that by shooting from lower and not including the whole truck in the picture, what do you think?" Find out what they like about "other kids' senior pictures," and discuss how (and whether) you can deliver something closer to that. If that happens to include all your suggestions that they ignored last time... there's your chance to make them want to listen to you.
In that process, make sure you explain that the time of day has a direct impact on the results you can deliver with the lighting equipment at your disposal (they don't need to know you have all that other gear), and tell them you'll be happy to schedule something further out if that's what it takes to get together with him at the right time of day. Seniors are really busy during the school year, with college applications and standardized testing and sports and finals and all that stuff, so it may be easier to work with him after school's out (that's why the savvy ones schedule their photos for the summer after junior year!).
From the things you've said about these folks so far, it sounds like they might turn out to be the domineering, never-satisfied, nickel-and-diming type of clients who demand high-end photography for a lowball price. If you can satisfy them with one round of accommodations (whether that's Photoshopping, a reshoot, or -- if all else fails -- a partial refund), it's worth a shot. If they continue to complain after you've tried in earnest to make them happy and you've delivered a reasonable product, then you'll know. It might be wise to put the terms of your accommodation in writing and have them sign off on it.
A partial refund would be my last choice of accommodation; in fact, I wouldn't put it on the table and I'd hesitate to give it if they asked for it. Word could get around that there's a "hidden discount" on your photos for complainers, and guess what kind of clients you'd be stuck with day in and day out!
Similarly, free copies of the photos they don't like would probably be less than satisfactory to them, and would send the same message about discounts for complaining. This doesn't fix the problem; it merely devalues your work.
In the short run, you don't want to get badmouthed by this family if you can fix the problem without too much work. In the long run, you'll probably do yourself a favor by brushing up on your lighting, learning a bit more about the senior market, and raising your prices (if the local market will bear it). Then let the next newbie take on the bottom-feeder bargain hunters!
momwac makes a lot of good points that don't need to be repeated. I do have a couple of things I would like to add:
You are past the time crunch as the client has already submitted the yearbook shot. Now it's time to think re-shoot.
A re-shoot is, realistically, your only option. The work that Nik did was quite nice and it does save that one shot. But, you can't do that to all of them or even to most of them.
As momwac says, get the client (and his mom/dad/etc) involved in identifying the problems they have with the work and then propose ways to fix them.
Schedule a re-shoot. Make it for a couple of weeks into the future. Make it in the evening so you have a chance to get and use some of that sweet light. To make the delay a little easier for the client to swallow, suggest you need the time to properly "engieer a working solution" for each of the identified problems - of course, this means that you will have to actually deliver solutions so take notes of each identified problem and the results of your research to solve them. Make sure your schedule will accomodate the time of the scheduled re-shoot. Reading some of your posts, it's clear that you were more interested in seeing your houseguest away than in ensuring that you shot during the sweet light.
Why schedule for a couple of weeks out? So you can have some time to use and understand:
Off-camera lighting and how to use it in conjunction with the sun.
The right way and time to use on-camera light. It can be done and done successfully.
Come to understand and know the difference between key light and fill.
After just 8 or 10 hours (not all at one time) of real work and study of your results you should be able to arrive at a set, set up your lights, and be shooting in about 10 minutes. It's not rocket science.
During the shoot - take control of the shoot. Let them select locations, or at least some of the them. Be sure to have your onw ideas of where to best shoot. Then use your sense of the aesthetic and shoot it to your taste. Make sure you include some that they request, but also add your vision to the shoot.
Vary your angle, your focal length, your posing. Posing - research ways to appropriatly pose young men. There are lots of good resources on-line. Take the time to study the work of others. The shots of the client with his truck - a short focal length can be made to make him larger then life - just have him closer to the camera than most (all?) of the truck.
Calibrate your monitor! I think this has been hammered enough that you get the point. In the reading I've done, I've not been impressed with the cheaper solutions. Put some money down and get yourself a tool that will work in the long term. I bought mine almost 3 years ago and it's still going strong - after 4 computers, 3 video cards, 3 monitors, and 3 operating systems (BTW - that's call upgrade fever).
Comments
Now then, if you are shooting manual flash, none of the above (except for the CTO eating light) applies. You just have to set the power of the flash to produce the amount of light you want / need / desire using any number of different techniques (but that's a subject for a different thread).
My Photos
Thoughts on photographing a wedding, How to post a picture, AF Microadjustments?, Light Scoop
Equipment List - Check my profile
Yes, that is correct. I was talking manual. The only times I use flash in ETTL mode is when I shoot candis in the parties, so I wasn't even thinking of using ETTL for serious portraiture. Mea culpa,
My Photos
Thoughts on photographing a wedding, How to post a picture, AF Microadjustments?, Light Scoop
Equipment List - Check my profile
Ok, so responses I got were that it looked like I took a photo of a scenery and stuck the kid in there. Obviously because I was using way too much light.
Is there anything I can do to fix these so they don't look like this? Basically the kid wasn't happy with any of the photos. Which just instantly puts me in a bad mood. He's got my grandma and uncle calling me telling me what I did wrong, and all this other stuff about other people's senior portraits, how much they cost, etc...
The gallery can be found here, the password is cowboy09. Please take a moment to look over all the photos from the day and offer ANY advice you have on how to make these not look like I stuck him into the photo...
I don't know what to do otherwise. Give him his money back? :-(, partial refund? I dunno...I quit.
OneTwoFiftieth | Portland, Oregon | Modern Portraiture
My Equipment:
Bodies: Canon 50D, Canon EOS 1
Lenses: Canon 10-22mm f/3.5-4.5, Canon 24-105mm f/4L IS, Canon 50mm f/1.4, Canon 100mm f/2.8 Macro, Canon MP-E 65mm f/2.8
Lighting: Canon 580EXII, Canon 420 EX, 12" Reflector, Pocket Wizard Plus II (3), AB800 (3), Large Softbox
Stability: Manfrotto 190CXPRO3 Tripod, Manfrotto 488RC4 Ball Head, Manfrotto 679B Monopod
Bryce, I think if there is one person you gotta please and listen to - it's your customer, that very kid. What did he say? Same stuff as we did? Apparently he was vocal enough if he managed to explain your grandma and uncle what exactly you did "wrong"...
I haven't talked to him yet, I'm scared to. Apparently he talked to my uncle and showed the family the photos, and they all agreed that it looked like I stuck him in afterwards. From what my uncle said, he didn't like any of them. Looking back through them, they ALL don't look like I stuck him in the photo, only a few actually look that way for me. I dunno...I think I see things differently. My uncle also said that one of the horse shots it looked like the horse's head was like 8 feet long, I went back through them, and had no idea what he was talking about, I couldn't see it.
OneTwoFiftieth | Portland, Oregon | Modern Portraiture
My Equipment:
Bodies: Canon 50D, Canon EOS 1
Lenses: Canon 10-22mm f/3.5-4.5, Canon 24-105mm f/4L IS, Canon 50mm f/1.4, Canon 100mm f/2.8 Macro, Canon MP-E 65mm f/2.8
Lighting: Canon 580EXII, Canon 420 EX, 12" Reflector, Pocket Wizard Plus II (3), AB800 (3), Large Softbox
Stability: Manfrotto 190CXPRO3 Tripod, Manfrotto 488RC4 Ball Head, Manfrotto 679B Monopod
I'm pretty sure I know what is wrong. I used too much flash, and it looks like I photoshopped him into the photo. I just need to know how to fix it. Obviously can't reshoot for the year book photo as it was due today for the year book. The kid started this process about 4 months too late. I really should have turned it down because a week to do everything is just going to cause problems. I will have to give him a call, but I just want to figure out exactly what I want to do about the situation before hand. Thanks for the input.
OneTwoFiftieth | Portland, Oregon | Modern Portraiture
My Equipment:
Bodies: Canon 50D, Canon EOS 1
Lenses: Canon 10-22mm f/3.5-4.5, Canon 24-105mm f/4L IS, Canon 50mm f/1.4, Canon 100mm f/2.8 Macro, Canon MP-E 65mm f/2.8
Lighting: Canon 580EXII, Canon 420 EX, 12" Reflector, Pocket Wizard Plus II (3), AB800 (3), Large Softbox
Stability: Manfrotto 190CXPRO3 Tripod, Manfrotto 488RC4 Ball Head, Manfrotto 679B Monopod
Haven't been to the gallery....however......you have a thread from a day or 2 ago about a cleint dogging on your pricing and needing pix yesterday for today.....Same Client??
First of all call your aunt and uncle and talk calibrated monitors....do not tell them that your not calibrated.....also if he has any photo software he may have played with your pix before printing...did he print to show aunt and uncle??? did he use their computer or his to show your work??
The ones you posted her are not so over coked that you should be able to save using some curves n PS or even going into the lab mode and doing some rework.....nicely mention that the other kids did not wait until the last few days of school to get photos done and that your normal turnaround is (what ever it is: 2 weeks, 3 weeks...what ever)...........my only real nit was in the "pondering" photo that he needed to be turned a bit more so that the pond was all that was behind him......not the highlines and road......
He could have tried a local photog and maybe he did and they wanted 2 or 3 times as much as you charged for the rush job.......I know photogs that will ask for 3-5 times as much for a short notice job.......
Personally I always ask have you been anywhere else if they look shocked and say no andit comes out believable then I will ask why they waited so long....if the reason seems reasonable then I will work with them.....if they just come off as lazy and cheap then I will hit with a huge short notice rush job charge........
if it looks like you need to refeund his money....do so, but not all of it.....make surte to keep some for gas and time.......if this is the 250 job.....give him 150 back and offer him 10 files aof his pick but also with the stipulation that you can use the images for advertizement.....if you give him ANY files for any reason....put your name on the pic just as if you signed it.....photoshop ahs a real cool cursive handwritten script that works great....my handwritting nver lookedso good until I used that, unfortunatly I do not remember which one it was as I now use a tablet and actually use my own signature.....do not make it as a copyright notice......just your signature.....if you use lightroom you can put copyright directly into the exif when importing, put a copy right notice on any disk you burn for him...on the label and a notice of copyright as a word or pdf file on the disk so it is there in blk/wht for all to read prior to printing....................
Good luck
He hasn't printed any photos yet. He just showed my uncle and family on a computer. I will quickly mention calibrated monitors, and also note that processing was super rushed due to his lack of planning ahead and photos like these need to be done WAY prior to graduation date as the other kids have. Highlines and road? I'm guessing highlines you mean the top of the trees/hills, and by road I'm guessing you mean the mustard seed fields in the back ground... I can crop it a bit down if that would help. Thanks for the other tips, I will talk to him and my uncle in those regards.
Regarding any photos I give him if I return the 150, I'll put my signature on each file in the bottom corner. I do have a copyright notice in the exif info for every photo i import into LR, so that is already there. If he takes the files to a printer, is the printer honestly going to look at that? I probably won't waste a disk for this kid, but rather just send an email with the photo. Should I give original size files or smaller files? say like max size 8x12?
Thanks so much Art for all you're help, always a great resource. MUCH appreciated.
OneTwoFiftieth | Portland, Oregon | Modern Portraiture
My Equipment:
Bodies: Canon 50D, Canon EOS 1
Lenses: Canon 10-22mm f/3.5-4.5, Canon 24-105mm f/4L IS, Canon 50mm f/1.4, Canon 100mm f/2.8 Macro, Canon MP-E 65mm f/2.8
Lighting: Canon 580EXII, Canon 420 EX, 12" Reflector, Pocket Wizard Plus II (3), AB800 (3), Large Softbox
Stability: Manfrotto 190CXPRO3 Tripod, Manfrotto 488RC4 Ball Head, Manfrotto 679B Monopod
I think you do need to talk to him mano-a-mano, and offer solutions.
Here's an idea for what PS can do for you in 5 min or less.
From left to right:
I have a PSD version of this composite (PS CS4), I can send it to you if you want me to..
HTH
Do waste a disk on him.....that way you have better control....as I stated above you add your copyright in large dark print (©2009CandidArts) on the disk label and put a pdf or word doc inside giving specific rights ...such as all printed photos MUST CONTAIN my signature and put your siggy approx 1.5" up from bottom and from the side of the photo.....that way it is there no matter what size they print them.
Give full resolution files...do not restrict printing size.....in your copyright notice put your phone number (cell) in for processor to be able to contact you anytime for permission to print.....if they are reputable they will call.....
....I also put my contact info on the disk lable for same purpose.....I am currently using light scribe for labeling and runing my disks thru about 4 times for max contrast on gold disks............
Nikolai did a great job on that pic.....however I just did some sohots out in a field near me and my grass was just as BRIGHT green as yours.....so it isn't all that over cooked..................
Ask the client exactly what his nits are and if you feel so inclined to fix from as learning experience it would be good for you.....when workiing with people try to always be compassionate no matter how obstinate they are....at some point this senior will be "nailed" for his attitude....someone down th road will see your work and tell him just great they really look and make him fell so very little..........
ahhhh.......distorted horse face......he may have his monitor incorrectly set ......
Not just too much flash (and certainly there is), but too much direct on-camera flash. Makes him look like a cardboard cutout, because you've completely overpowered the dimensional ambient light with flat frontal lighting. Do you have a sync cable, and/or could you swivel the flash to bounce off a reflector?
Did you choose the settings, or did he? I ask because a lot of the photos seem to emphasize the setting more than the subject. I don't see any images of the typical head-and-shoulders variety that are used in most yearbooks, nor many that would show him very prominently in a smallish print (imagine making wallets out of these pics?). The long horse face image they mentioned was probably #40; measure the horse's right ear, and you'll see that it seems as long as the senior's head. And if they didn't care for that, they probably didn't care for the wide-angle truck shot in #19 either -- nor the way he looks dwarved in #21 and #22. He's a young adult, a rifle-totin' man, marking a significant milestone and leaving his childhood behind; don't make him look small.
As to "how to fix it," I would call him and ask what would fix it for him. "Hey, I've heard you're unhappy with the pics. Tell me, what didn't you like and what can I do to make it right?"
Based on what you've said about his complaints, I'd bet you're looking at a reshoot. I don't think you can fix the photos, because your flash blasted away the detail that would make him look like a real person in a real setting. He's not lit even close to the same way his environment is, so it's going to look fake no matter how much you dim or desaturate the images in Photoshop. You could try burning in shadows where there should be shadows... but the time that would take is probably greater than the time it would take to just reshoot with better lighting.
Family friend or not, and right or not... blaming the client's time requirements (which you accepted) for the problems resulting from your lighting technique may be a good way to make your first paid gig into your last.
I'll be the odd man out here and say that I don't mind the supersaturated colors at all; I think they're kinda neat, and they certainly emphasize the beauty of the settings. However, coupled with the flat overhead lighting on the environment and the flat frontal lighting on the subject, the colors do make these images look a bit cartoonish.
I'm sure you can work this out with the client, but you'll need to whip out your best patience and professionalism. And in my experience, there's absolutely no better advertising in any field than the rave reviews of a formerly dissatisfied client you've "turned." Good luck!
Will the PSD files show a history of your actions for each photo? THAT I would like to see, other wise, what would be a benefit of having the PSD file of that composite?
Art, I see your point, and an extremely valid one it is. Thank you. With this light scribe thing you talk about, that seems to be the type of disks itself or is it a program, or a combination of the two? How can I tell if my burner is light scribe enabled? I'm on a MacBook OSX v 10.5.7, if that is of any consequence. This is the info on my buner straight from my computers info center:
MATSHITA DVD-R UJ-857E:
Firmware Revision: ZF1E
Interconnect: ATAPI
Burn Support: Yes (Apple Shipping Drive)
Cache: 2048 KB
Reads DVD: Yes
CD-Write: -R, -RW
DVD-Write: -R, -R DL, -RW, +R, +R DL, +RW
Write Strategies: CD-TAO, CD-SAO, DVD-DAO
Media: Insert media and refresh to show available burn speeds
Thanks Art for, again, all your help and wisdom. It's a lot harder now as I just started my full time job again, so reshooting, re editing, making phone calls, etc...becomes a smaller and smaller time slot to be able to do so.
This is why I like landscapes, they don't give their opinion...
OneTwoFiftieth | Portland, Oregon | Modern Portraiture
My Equipment:
Bodies: Canon 50D, Canon EOS 1
Lenses: Canon 10-22mm f/3.5-4.5, Canon 24-105mm f/4L IS, Canon 50mm f/1.4, Canon 100mm f/2.8 Macro, Canon MP-E 65mm f/2.8
Lighting: Canon 580EXII, Canon 420 EX, 12" Reflector, Pocket Wizard Plus II (3), AB800 (3), Large Softbox
Stability: Manfrotto 190CXPRO3 Tripod, Manfrotto 488RC4 Ball Head, Manfrotto 679B Monopod
First of all, may I say your user title is AWESOME! "I shoot kids". ok...now on to business.
You are right, I'm not the keenest to your response, but it is true, valid, and a seemingly more likely possibility. Not something I wanted to hear, but the truth. Thank you. The right news isn't always good news.
Regarding the lighting, I have two light stands and two ubrellas, 1 580 EXII flash and 1 420 EX flash. I have a camera bracket with a hot shoe mount cord, and use the 580 to trigger the 420 via IR. That is my only set up as of now. I don't know how to use the flash bracket yet as it's still cumbersum and I haven't played with it enough yet. Same goes for the light stands and umbrellas. I didn't want to waste this kids time by me setting up lights, moving them around, adjusting the power, figuring out the proper settings, etc...so I went with what I felt most comfortable with. Obviously that was the wrong choice, in MANY aspects. I'm hoping to take some lighting courses this fall, but obviously it's not fall yet, so that hasn't happened. I just don't have a whole lot of time to practice with it, nor someone to tell me (as I'm shooting) what I'm doing wrong or right, or pointers. I'm very hands on, so as people telling me ideas and what not on here is great, and has helped a lot in a lot of situation, sometimes (and I think lighting is one of those times) I just need to be there, with someone, learning.
He and his mom chose all the settings, pretty much had everything laid out before I even got there. I think they are the type of people that do A LOT of talking, but VERY little listening. It seems that everything I said was not heard by either one of them, however their mouths didn't stop moving. I didn't want to do a noon shoot, but he moved the appointment around like 3 times, I told them what came with the package, but they argued about it later...AHHH!
I totally see what you mean in regards to head/sholders shots, or how they would look in smallish prints. I guess that's something that I just didn't think about as I was nervous enough about doing the shoot and making sure the photos turned out good, and everything else, I completely passed over the fact that most senior photos are the head and shoulders type so as to emphasize the person, and still look good in smaller prints. I most certainly see your points about the 19, 21, and 22 photos, however he actually is a rather small guy, with a huge truck, so it's not THAT big of a stretch, but I see your point.
If the photos are to the point of doing a re shoot, it's too late to do it for the year book, as that photo was already submitted today, he chose #48 in the gallery. So unless he wants to re shoot the photos to either a) get his money worth, or b) have photos that he likes for grad announcements or whatever, I don't think a re shoot is gonna happen, and I'll end up just giving 150 or so of his money back.
I understand my acceptance of the short notice shoot, however I was not made aware of how soon the photo was due for the year book (my fault obviously for not checking), I just knew that he was doing it really late. I had planned on spending about a week editing the photos, then he asked if he could expect them in 3 days, then I ended up getting finished (the first go around) in 1.5 days.
The colors in the gallery now are not the original "super saturated" photos I had oringally edited. All these were brought down a bit, which I'm not a fan of personally, but everyone I talked to said they should be brought down, so I did. They just look extremely dull to me, and not vibrant at all. And as Art said, he took some shots of a green field near his house, and the grass was bright green simliar to my shots. So I could actually only bring it down so much before I started to actually de saturate the original photo.
Thanks for the tips, adivce, everything. Much appreciated. (even though some of it was not what I wanted to hear...)
OneTwoFiftieth | Portland, Oregon | Modern Portraiture
My Equipment:
Bodies: Canon 50D, Canon EOS 1
Lenses: Canon 10-22mm f/3.5-4.5, Canon 24-105mm f/4L IS, Canon 50mm f/1.4, Canon 100mm f/2.8 Macro, Canon MP-E 65mm f/2.8
Lighting: Canon 580EXII, Canon 420 EX, 12" Reflector, Pocket Wizard Plus II (3), AB800 (3), Large Softbox
Stability: Manfrotto 190CXPRO3 Tripod, Manfrotto 488RC4 Ball Head, Manfrotto 679B Monopod
Yes, PSD would have all the layers. I didn't actually do any local correction (with any sort of selection involved), everything was done globally in adjustment layers, so everything that I did would be most likely also achievable via ACR5.x or LR2.x
Good that he picked something he likes for the yearbook; that takes your time pressure off. Senior pics are for more than the yearbook -- they're for mom to remember when kiddo goes off to college, for kiddo to swap with his pals and girlfriends, and to share with the grandkids (mom's and, later, kiddo's) someday when he's older, balding, and flabby.
If you do one, get them on your side first by involving them in the troubleshooting. "Oh, so it's the cardboard cutout look that you don't like? OK, we can fix that if we have the sun at a different angle when we shoot." "Oh, you don't like the way you look like a little kid with your truck? I can fix that by shooting from lower and not including the whole truck in the picture, what do you think?" Find out what they like about "other kids' senior pictures," and discuss how (and whether) you can deliver something closer to that. If that happens to include all your suggestions that they ignored last time... there's your chance to make them want to listen to you.
In that process, make sure you explain that the time of day has a direct impact on the results you can deliver with the lighting equipment at your disposal (they don't need to know you have all that other gear), and tell them you'll be happy to schedule something further out if that's what it takes to get together with him at the right time of day. Seniors are really busy during the school year, with college applications and standardized testing and sports and finals and all that stuff, so it may be easier to work with him after school's out (that's why the savvy ones schedule their photos for the summer after junior year!).
From the things you've said about these folks so far, it sounds like they might turn out to be the domineering, never-satisfied, nickel-and-diming type of clients who demand high-end photography for a lowball price. If you can satisfy them with one round of accommodations (whether that's Photoshopping, a reshoot, or -- if all else fails -- a partial refund), it's worth a shot. If they continue to complain after you've tried in earnest to make them happy and you've delivered a reasonable product, then you'll know. It might be wise to put the terms of your accommodation in writing and have them sign off on it.
A partial refund would be my last choice of accommodation; in fact, I wouldn't put it on the table and I'd hesitate to give it if they asked for it. Word could get around that there's a "hidden discount" on your photos for complainers, and guess what kind of clients you'd be stuck with day in and day out!
Similarly, free copies of the photos they don't like would probably be less than satisfactory to them, and would send the same message about discounts for complaining. This doesn't fix the problem; it merely devalues your work.
In the short run, you don't want to get badmouthed by this family if you can fix the problem without too much work. In the long run, you'll probably do yourself a favor by brushing up on your lighting, learning a bit more about the senior market, and raising your prices (if the local market will bear it). Then let the next newbie take on the bottom-feeder bargain hunters!
Again, good luck!
After just 8 or 10 hours (not all at one time) of real work and study of your results you should be able to arrive at a set, set up your lights, and be shooting in about 10 minutes. It's not rocket science.
My Photos
Thoughts on photographing a wedding, How to post a picture, AF Microadjustments?, Light Scoop
Equipment List - Check my profile