I've had it... Not using SM for sales anymore...

TalkieT · October 15, 2009

After 3 years (Might be more, might be less, feel like forever) of asking for non $USD customer payment options and getting the "thanks for the request, your feedback is really important to us" line more often than I care to remember, I have finally had enough customer complaints about the lack of local currency support and I'm removing Smugmug sales from all new galleries on my site and am forced into doing the sales and printing myself.

It will mean a lot more work for me, as well as the hassle of dealing with print issues from the labs etc... It's exactly what I am VERY happy for Smugmug to take a cut to do...

But I'm utterly fed up explaining to my local customers that they have to pay in USD because of the inflexibility of my photo host (which is wonderful in every other area!).

I know this won't help, but I just had to vent. I've given up asking, or even watching for this feature, because it just won't ever happen.

Regards
Neil Gardner
www.nzsnaps.com

Andy · October 15, 2009

Hi Neil, I'm sorry we don't have int'l currency options yet. I think we want to one day, but there's a bunch of other stuff we have to finish first. I'm really sorry.

TalkieT · October 15, 2009

Andy wrote:

Hi Neil, I'm sorry we don't have int'l currency options yet. I think we want to one day, but there's a bunch of other stuff we have to finish first. I'm really sorry.

Thanks for the (as always) super quick response Andy, but I've given up on Smugmug ever offering this feature and am just going to have to implement a solution myself... I already make just under 10 times as much from the paypal digital downloads on my SM site as I do from the prints...

I'm sure the other stuff you have to do is very important to your US based Pros, but I'd guarantee you that multiple currency support is the most important feature to non US based Pros.

It's a shame, but I understand why you can't assign resource to the requests coming from a minority of your customers.

Regards
Neil Gardner

darklightphotography · October 15, 2009

TalkieT wrote:

Thanks for the (as always) super quick response Andy, but I've given up on Smugmug ever offering this feature and am just going to have to implement a solution myself... I already make just under 10 times as much from the paypal digital downloads on my SM site as I do from the prints...

I'm sure the other stuff you have to do is very important to your US based Pros, but I'd guarantee you that multiple currency support is the most important feature to non US based Pros.

It's a shame, but I understand why you can't assign resource to the requests coming from a minority of your customers.

Regards
Neil Gardner

I've switched my site to Paypal for prints and have seen a drop in the number of complaints, and a rise in sales. Of course that won't work when (if?) coupons are released.

blackshadow · October 16, 2009

I'm thinking of quitting SM too for exactly the same reason. There is a new Australian start up that is offering multiple currency sales and PayPal integration, coupons and SEO optimisation.

At present it is self fulfillment at this stage but they will be integrating ordering through labs in the Australia and the US.

It looks very promising - you can check out the features at www.photomerchant.net

If they get it right I can see a lot of non US pros (and more than a few US pros) heading to a hosting site that offers the features they need and that Smugmug has ignored.

Allen42 · October 16, 2009

blackshadow wrote:

If they get it right I can see a lot of non US pros (and more than a few US pros) heading to a hosting site that offers the features they need and that Smugmug has ignored.

I'm not sure that's entirely fair, but IMHO, there is a ring of truth to it. I get the impression that SM wants to stay small, debt-free, etc. I think this forces them into an uncomfortable position of trying to keep up with a (presumably) huge subscriber growth rate but an unmatched infrastructure and feature set growth rate. I completely understand the buisness decisions they are making, but I hope they truly understand what a pivotal period in time this may turn out to be, and are thinking about the 5 year and 10 year plan.

In other words, I think they need to ramp up R&D capacity on the front end *while* they are building new back-end infrastructure capabilities. Both are necessary for your success. If the front end user expectations aren't met, people will leave for features. If the infrastructure fails, people will leave for dependable service.

To hear they put projects on hold to complete other projects tells me they are labor constrained. It's an incredible juggling act to perform with limited resources, but maybe it's time to add more jugglers to get more balls in the air? Since they are private, we don't have access to financials, but I have to believe the money is there to use if they choose to the lower operating reserves a bit and "gamble" on R&D investments.

How many of these "I'm leaving" type of posts can they stand... both in raw numbers, and in reputation?

Just my .02 cents, and worth less than that, I'm sure.

-Allen

SamirD · October 16, 2009

blackshadow wrote:

It looks very promising - you can check out the features at www.photomerchant.net

Just curious, but how many photo hosts/services like SM exist that DO allow multiple currencies?

TalkieT · October 16, 2009

Allen42 wrote:

[snip] How many of these "I'm leaving" type of posts can they stand... both in raw numbers, and in reputation?[snip]
-Allen

Oh, I should be clear... I am _NOT_ giving up my Smugmug site and I am keeping it as my main web presence... I LOVE every other part of Smugmug - it's just that their current approach generates a LOT of customer complaints and I _KNOW_ that I was losing a lot of sales because they refuse to accept foreign currencies... I know this because my sales more than quadrupled when I started selling digital downloads through Paypal (which accepts my local New Zealand Dollar).

But the rest... The support, the customisation, and the trust they have gained through running such a good operation over the years with no discernable drop off in any important area means I really can't even consider going somewhere else...

FWIW, I'm currently considering replacing their cart functionality with a richer Paypal sales system, and actually still using SM for the printing etc... The difference being customers would pay me through Paypal, and then I would use SM to order the prints in USD on my CC and have them delivered direct to the customer.

It saddens me that I have to go to such extremes just to shield my customers from Smugmugs biggest shortcoming... And one they have never shown any sign of REALLY wanting to address.

Regards
Neil Gardner
www.nzsnaps.com

SamirD · October 16, 2009

TalkieT wrote:

And one they have never shown any sign of REALLY wanting to address.[/url]

There's all sorts of barriers to international business besides just the technology. Would SM be considered a business by local laws if they accept local currency and ship to customers there? What parts of the current SM organization would have to change to comply with local or international laws? What other legal complications can arise from allowing different currencies? Would they be considered a currency exchange? Would these actions be regulated like securities exchange? And on and on...

The Internet has opened up the world to the potential of global trade, but there's a lot of red tape that keeps it from being feasible right now. That's why there's companies in each nation, all over the world that do the exact same thing.

blackshadow · October 16, 2009

TalkieT wrote:

Oh, I should be clear... I am _NOT_ giving up my Smugmug site and I am keeping it as my main web presence... I LOVE every other part of Smugmug - it's just that their current approach generates a LOT of customer complaints and I _KNOW_ that I was losing a lot of sales because they refuse to accept foreign currencies... I know this because my sales more than quadrupled when I started selling digital downloads through Paypal (which accepts my local New Zealand Dollar).

But the rest... The support, the customisation, and the trust they have gained through running such a good operation over the years with no discernable drop off in any important area means I really can't even consider going somewhere else...

FWIW, I'm currently considering replacing their cart functionality with a richer Paypal sales system, and actually still using SM for the printing etc... The difference being customers would pay me through Paypal, and then I would use SM to order the prints in USD on my CC and have them delivered direct to the customer.

It saddens me that I have to go to such extremes just to shield my customers from Smugmugs biggest shortcoming... And one they have never shown any sign of REALLY wanting to address.

Regards
Neil Gardner
www.nzsnaps.com

Neil - that's something I'm considering as well.

I have three options at present:

1. stick with SM - and yes you're right they do some things exceptionally well, the presentation, ease of use and support are first class. If I stay with SM I will be downgrading my account from a pro level and implementing a PayPal shopping cart.

2. Go to Photoshelter - this option is firming as my favourite at present (I may maintain my SM site but not at pro level)

3. Give photomerchant.net a go - it seems to offer the main features I really need.

Whichever way I go SM will lose a Pro account holder because they haven't been able to meet my needs as a customer.

Ideally I'd prefer (and it would be much easier) to stay a SM Pro but I need certain features SM don't offer and from all I have read are unlikely to in the foreseeable future. The lack of these features is costing me money and that's something I can't ignore.

philtography · October 16, 2009

I don't get it! What is the problem here. So I set my prices based on how much profit I want to make. So lets say my print is US$100 and I make US$75. Now if I were to offer the same print to someone in AUD I still want to make $US75 so for anyone in Aus the price would be AU$110. So who cares what currency the shopping cart is in. Put it in Peso's for all I care.

On the flip side if you want your print to be AU$83 just sell it for US$76!?!?!?

TalkieT · October 17, 2009

philtography wrote:

I don't get it! What is the problem here. So I set my prices based on how much profit I want to make. So lets say my print is US$100 and I make US$75. Now if I were to offer the same print to someone in AUD I still want to make $US75 so for anyone in Aus the price would be AU$110. So who cares what currency the shopping cart is in. Put it in Peso's for all I care.

On the flip side if you want your print to be AU$83 just sell it for US$76!?!?!?

The problem is a lot of my (potential) customers see $USD and simply don't order...

I know this for sure as I have seen a massive increase in sales since I included a Paypal digital sale option in $NZD, and because I get several emails after each event asking why my print prices are in USD when they know I am a local photographer.

Cheers- N

blackshadow · October 17, 2009

TalkieT wrote:

The problem is a lot of my (potential) customers see $USD and simply don't order...

I know this for sure as I have seen a massive increase in sales since I included a Paypal digital sale option in $NZD, and because I get several emails after each event asking why my print prices are in USD when they know I am a local photographer.

Cheers- N

Exactly - just substitute $AUS instead of NZ for me.

I wouldn't care if the currency was Swedish Kroner as long as I got my cut. But the bulk of my customers are local from Australia and their preference is for local currency.

philtography · October 17, 2009

I guess I don't understand why people care what currency the item for sale is in. Don't they realize they would be paying the same amount regardless of the currency (minor currency fluctuations aside). I have lived in NZ, Aus, Canada, and have traveled to every continent, currency means little to me now.
Is there a way to better inform our potential customers, that what they pay is the same regardless of whether they are buying from NZ, Aus, Canada or the USA? Or that while the currency is in USD, the photographer is based in Aus, NZ or Canada etc...

philtography · October 17, 2009

While I might not understand why the customers care, I agree that it would be very easy to have a 'Select your desired currency' option, say in the pricing for the gallery or global pricing (much the same way the individual prices are set or like choosing a lab). The shopping cart could still process everything in USD, but at least then the photographer can control what the customer sees. A small note saying "These prices are in AUD, your statement will show the equivalent USD amount" should suffice??!!

SamirD · October 17, 2009

philtography wrote:

I guess I don't understand why people care what currency the item for sale is in. Don't they realize they would be paying the same amount regardless of the currency (minor currency fluctuations aside). I have lived in NZ, Aus, Canada, and have traveled to every continent, currency means little to me now.
Is there a way to better inform our potential customers, that what they pay is the same regardless of whether they are buying from NZ, Aus, Canada or the USA? Or that while the currency is in USD, the photographer is based in Aus, NZ or Canada etc...

Visa...it's everywhere you want to be.

But on a serious note, if customers are mainly paying by credit card, all the currency exchanges happen automatically. I've bought things from Europe and even Asia this way.

I think it's a global state of mind thing that's hard for people to grasp. Even I would look at something funny if it was selling in Canadian dollars and it was by a local company.

blackshadow · October 17, 2009

Phil and SamirD - you and I understand that it doesn't really matter what currency things are priced in but my customers definitely prefer pricing in local currency and that's important to me.

Also the lack of electronic payment from SM is just not up to scratch. It takes 28 days for a check (sic) (real spelling is cheque) to clear into my bank account from overseas and I'm slugged with extra bank fees to deposit money by overseas cheque. I deal with many businesses overseas and SM is the only one unable to make electronic payments.

timk519 · October 17, 2009

Andy wrote:

I think we want to one day, but there's a bunch of other stuff we have to finish first.

Rather than going multi-currency and doing everything yourself, wouldn't it make sense to partner with businesses that are local to these other countries? They can then put their 'brand' on the front end and handle the lab fulfillment, SM provides the back-end and shopping cart, and takes a % of the proceeds as they do now.

All the business work would be taken care of by the partner businesses, and SM doesn't have to deal with the currency FX headaches.

SamirD · October 18, 2009

timk519 wrote:

Rather than going multi-currency and doing everything yourself, wouldn't it make sense to partner with businesses that are local to these other countries? They can then put their 'brand' on the front end and handle the lab fulfillment, SM provides the back-end and shopping cart, and takes a % of the proceeds as they do now.

All the business work would be taken care of by the partner businesses, and SM doesn't have to deal with the currency FX headaches.

That's one solution, but that even becomes more complicated as you're basically licensing the SM brand to another company. I'd hate to see the legal documents behind something like this. It would be like reading books.

It would be nice if there was a way of using scripting to change the currency displayed. I completely understand what your customers must be thinking.

bartron · October 18, 2009

Lack of local currency support is the #1 thing keeping me from upgrading (currently have the cheapest account offering).

Almost everything else is pretty much exactly what I want in a site like this. Even if it was an option to do a JS conversion on the fly to display the local peso it would suffice. As others have said it's just that one thing the customer notices. What happens in the backend is irrelevant.

Imagine the SM frontend with digitalworks.net.au printing services in the backend. That's 10 flavours of awesome right there and I'd pay 5 years in advance.

timk519 · October 18, 2009

SamirD wrote:

That's one solution, but that even becomes more complicated as you're basically licensing the SM brand to another company.

I'm suggesting that SM licenses their technology to other companies, who then put their brand on it, do the photo fulfillment, take care of the FX, tax, and other legal implications specific to their country, etc.

Would the legal docs be extensive? Possibly. But that's a business decision that would need to be investigated and made to determine if the lawyer, etc. fees are substantially less than the potential revenue stream.

bartron · October 18, 2009

timk519 wrote:

I'm suggesting that SM licenses their technology to other companies, who then put their brand on it, do the photo fulfillment, take care of the FX, tax, and other legal implications specific to their country, etc.

Would the legal docs be extensive? Possibly. But that's a business decision that would need to be investigated and made to determine if the lawyer, etc. fees are substantially less than the potential revenue stream.

I don't think it even needs to be that complicated.

You work with a local printer to accept a standard format. It should be no more difficult than presenting a printer with a collection of images and an XML file describing how to print them and who to post them to. Everything else is handled as-in on the SM side of things.

e.g. in SM I select 20 images in various sizes, arrange payment and hit 'print' (or whatever). Behind the scenes SM identifies which local printer you want to use and FTP the images and XML descriptor to the printers server. The printer prints the images and posts them out. Client pays local postage fees and gets their images faster and the printer sends an account to SM for the cost. The price can be displayed in local currency on the SM site and handled in the backend in $US. The only international exchange is the printer-> SM account which the client never sees.

My local printer already has something similar set up whereby you upload a folder called "8x10" to their FTP server and everything within is printed 8x10. They keep it for 7 days or something in case there is a printing error but after that it's deleted.

This wouldn't work for specialty items like mugs or t-shirts but then not everyone gets their wedding photo on a mug. For prints though it would work fine and would need nothing further than a short contract for services and an agreement on the delivery method of the digital files to be printed.

Art Scott · October 19, 2009

TalkieT wrote:

The problem is a lot of my (potential) customers see $USD and simply don't order...

Cheers- N

EXACTLY!!

Art Scott · October 19, 2009

philtography wrote:

I guess I don't understand why people care what currency the item for sale is in. Don't they realize they would be paying the same amount regardless of the currency (minor currency fluctuations aside). I have lived in NZ, Aus, Canada, and have traveled to every continent, currency means little to me now.
.

A lot of it boils down to what the world actually thinks of the general arrogance of the USA.....It boils down to people being FORCED to use a currency they do not understand or even like for that matter.....for most of the world it is like a slap in the face to be forced to use USD.......Plain and Simple.............That is exactly how it was put to me years back when I started with SM from people want to buy my work.....now I just take emails and send a Paypal invoice................

I have asked for int'l Currencies for as long as I have been using SM to no avail.......I buy flowers, candy and other stuff for various lady friends in the Czech Republic from tiny little flower shops in Prague, Tabor and other towns and all of them have mutiple currencies....not only Euros, but pounds sterling, Deutsche Marks and USD and others.......I understand that most European Countries are lightyears ahead in having better coders and well work cheaper thatn the ones here in the US but hey still these flower shops are MOM and POP companies.....as are most businesses in that country.......

I also use RED BUBBLE from Australia cause they offer multi currency shop cart and RB is free to sign up with...................

SamirD · October 19, 2009

timk519 wrote:

I'm suggesting that SM licenses their technology to other companies, who then put their brand on it, do the photo fulfillment, take care of the FX, tax, and other legal implications specific to their country, etc.

Would the legal docs be extensive? Possibly. But that's a business decision that would need to be investigated and made to determine if the lawyer, etc. fees are substantially less than the potential revenue stream.

Beyond just revenue, I think SM takes their technology very seriously and wouldn't feel comfortable with any type of license like this. SM isn't in the software business, and because of that, I don't think their technology is packaged or easily packaged for replication in another country.

Now, what I don't understand is if there is such a gap in services provided in other countries why someone from that country doesn't develop something like what is happening in Australia.

SamirD · October 19, 2009

bartron wrote:

I don't think it even needs to be that complicated.

e.g. in SM I select 20 images in various sizes, arrange payment and hit 'print' (or whatever). Behind the scenes SM identifies which local printer you want to use and FTP the images and XML descriptor to the printers server. The printer prints the images and posts them out. Client pays local postage fees and gets their images faster and the printer sends an account to SM for the cost. The price can be displayed in local currency on the SM site and handled in the backend in $US. The only international exchange is the printer-> SM account which the client never sees.

And I'm sure it is pretty much like that with the printing companies SM currently uses. The problem is when things start to cross the borders.

If you've never had to deal in international business, it can be a seas of red tape that doesn't even make sense. Many ideas stop right there. Tariffs, taxes, and currency exchange are just part of it. International intellectual property rights, electronic exports laws, and other issues would be the tip of the iceberg.

It's not that simple or it would have already been done.

Craig Ridley · October 20, 2009

blackshadow wrote:

I'm thinking of quitting SM too for exactly the same reason. There is a new Australian start up that is offering multiple currency sales and PayPal integration, coupons and SEO optimisation.

At present it is self fulfillment at this stage but they will be integrating ordering through labs in the Australia and the US.

It looks very promising - you can check out the features at www.photomerchant.net

If they get it right I can see a lot of non US pros (and more than a few US pros) heading to a hosting site that offers the features they need and that Smugmug has ignored.

Looks very promising!

WinsomeWorks · October 23, 2009

Other thread with PayPal Cart integration idea

Craig Ridley wrote:

Looks very promising!

I don't see that anyone has posted this link in this thread: http://www.dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=116380&page=24&highlight=paypal It offers code for adding a PayPal cart to your site. I'm sorry if it's already been posted-- I didn't read the entire thread to find out. But I just thought others reading this thread would like to know about the other one. In fact, wait a minute... isn't this the same Craig? Anyway... hope it helps some of you.

TalkieT · October 25, 2009

WinsomeWorks wrote:

I don't see that anyone has posted this link in this thread: http://www.dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=116380&page=24&highlight=paypal It offers code for adding a PayPal cart to your site. I'm sorry if it's already been posted-- I didn't read the entire thread to find out. But I just thought others reading this thread would like to know about the other one. In fact, wait a minute... isn't this the same Craig? Anyway... hope it helps some of you.

Yep, it was the same Craig, and I too have had to implement Paypal on my SM site. Please understand I DON'T WANT TO DO THIS. I WANT to give Smugmug more money. I want them to take a cut from every sale so I can have the same experience for ordering prints and digital downloads instead of 2 experiences.

I have recently in fact disabled print sales from new galleries and only offered Digital downloads fulfilled through myself after customers order and pay through Paypal in New Zealand Dollars.

None of us are implementing Paypal to get out of paying SM their commission... I loved the fact that print orders were just totally taken care of if customers didn't mind the $USD. Quality, guarantee and choice in prints were awesome - it kills me to have to disable it.

Cheers - N

WinsomeWorks · October 25, 2009

TalkieT wrote:

Yep, it was the same Craig, and I too have had to implement Paypal on my SM site. Please understand I DON'T WANT TO DO THIS. I WANT to give Smugmug more money. I want them to take a cut from every sale so I can have the same experience for ordering prints and digital downloads instead of 2 experiences.

I have recently in fact disabled print sales from new galleries and only offered Digital downloads fulfilled through myself after customers order and pay through Paypal in New Zealand Dollars.

None of us are implementing Paypal to get out of paying SM their commission... I loved the fact that print orders were just totally taken care of if customers didn't mind the $USD. Quality, guarantee and choice in prints were awesome - it kills me to have to disable it.

Cheers - N

I can sure understand why this is a drawback & realize the PayPal thing is not a perfect fix by any means. I know I get turned off to stuff when it's not in my currency as well-- certainly it would be a big deterrent. Hopefully it'll happen someday; it seems SmugMug has grown quite fast and I guess it's very tough to keep up with all the needs of what started out so small. Good luck with your sales though, and I'll hope for all our international folks that other currencies will become a possibility sooner rather than later. Lots of people begging for lots of stuff, so it takes a lot of sorting & priority work, I guess! Will hope for the best.

Kenny · December 17, 2009

WinsomeWorks wrote:

I can sure understand why this is a drawback & realize the PayPal thing is not a perfect fix by any means. I know I get turned off to stuff when it's not in my currency as well-- certainly it would be a big deterrent. Hopefully it'll happen someday; it seems SmugMug has grown quite fast and I guess it's very tough to keep up with all the needs of what started out so small. Good luck with your sales though, and I'll hope for all our international folks that other currencies will become a possibility sooner rather than later. Lots of people begging for lots of stuff, so it takes a lot of sorting & priority work, I guess! Will hope for the best.

For those of us interested in "Foreign" currencies... Photoshelter have just re-written their shopping cart system to include different currencies. They're not the cheapest storage/sharing/selling site on the planet, but they do have multiple currencies. The have extended their automated fulfillment partners to include EZprints, AdoramaPix and Exposure Manager. I believe there is now the capability to add other partners too, including non-US print partners.

http://blog.photoshelter.com/2009/12/happy-holidays-new-photoshelter-ecommerce-features.html

... and a snippet from their customer newsletter...

"Sell automated prints & products, and self-fulfill in multiple currencies. Previously, you were only able to transact with $USD if selling through our automated fulfillment partner EZprints. Now you may transact with your customers in up to 16 currencies - USD, Canadian Dollars, Australian Dollars, New Zealand Dollar, Hong Kong Dollar, Singapore Dollar, Euros, British Pound Sterling, Swiss Franc, Swedish Krona, Norwegian Krone, Danish Krone, Polish Zloty, Hungarian Forint, Czech Koruna, Japanese Yen. You can set this in your sales configuration."

Cheers,
Ken (in Oz)

I've had it... Not using SM for sales anymore...

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