Canon: C'mon Man! :/

ThatCanonGuy · October 30, 2010

Yes, I love monday night football ;~)

I just looked at Canon's selection of cheaper P&S's. Some of them are actually fine cams, with IS and even, some of them, HD video. But only the SX120 IS has manual mode!

I know, Canon's target audience here is people who know nothing about photography and who want to stick a sleek stylish camera in their pocket for facebook or whatever. But Canon is basically saying to pros/advanced amateurs, "DO NOT BUY THIS." Yes, yes, they want me to buy a G12. Guess what, I have lots of your pro gear and would rather spend $500 on a new lens than a P&S that I'll rarely use. All I want this for is the occasional movie and photo when I don't have my expensive DSLR that I bought from YOU, Canon. Oh no, you have to buy our expensive ones if you want to be able to take an acceptable photo.

One of the ones I looked at had HD video but no manual. Actually, the SX120 is about the cheapest manual-capable P&S you can get. They even have more expensive ones that don't have manual:scratch

OK, thanks for listening to my rant. I've never particularly liked Canon the company, or any camera company for that matter, just Canon's products (um, excuse me, DSLRs). Have any other advanced amateurs ever bought a non-manual P&S and been happy with it? I can't imagine...

SteveF · November 1, 2010

Hi,

I have a "photography class in a box" that I teach to local elementary schools.

Not sure how current they are, but I have about 20 Canon A590's that I let the kids use.

Reason I chose that one was specifically the Manual mode.

But I agree - I had to look quite a while to find an inexpensive camera with a manual mode. Just not much of a market for them I expect.

Bryans12v · November 1, 2010

ThatCanonGuy wrote: »

I know, Canon's target audience here is people who know nothing about photography and who want to stick a sleek stylish camera in their pocket for facebook or whatever. But Canon is basically saying to pros/advanced amateurs, "DO NOT BUY THIS." Yes, yes, they want me to buy a G12. Guess what, I have lots of your pro gear and would rather spend $500 on a new lens than a P&S that I'll rarely use. All I want this for is the occasional movie and photo when I don't have my expensive DSLR that I bought from YOU, Canon. Oh no, you have to buy our expensive ones if you want to be able to take an acceptable photo.

Couldnt agree with you more here. Its almost af if they hate the people that spend big money with them. They should at least offer slammin rebates on the expensive gear.

Snowgirl · November 1, 2010

SteveF wrote: »

I had to look quite a while to find an inexpensive camera with a manual mode. Just not much of a market for them I expect.

I'd say that's the answer right there. The large majority of folks who purchase P&S cameras want just that - point and shoot - no complications.

mercphoto · November 1, 2010

Snowgirl wrote: »

I'd say that's the answer right there. The large majority of folks who purchase P&S cameras want just that - point and shoot - no complications.

That's exactly what I want. If I want complications I get the dSLR. If I grab the point and shoot its because I only want to point and shoot. That camera stays on "P" 99% of the time.

chrisjohnson · November 1, 2010

mercphoto wrote: »

That's exactly what I want. If I want complications I get the dSLR. If I grab the point and shoot its because I only want to point and shoot. That camera stays on "P" 99% of the time.

Try the G series - great p&s camera with a manual mode.

ziggy53 · November 1, 2010

Does anyone think that Canon is unique in this regard?

How many have considered using CHDK to enable a manual mode of operation?

mercphoto · November 1, 2010

goldenballs wrote: »

Try the G series - great p&s camera with a manual mode.

But I quote myself: "If I grab the point and shoot its because I only want to point and shoot. That camera stays on P 99% of the time."

chrisjohnson · November 1, 2010

mercphoto wrote: »

But I quote myself: "If I grab the point and shoot its because I only want to point and shoot. That camera stays on P 99% of the time."

This is how we use the G9 most of the time. Still, it is handy to have the manual mode on occasion.

kdog · November 1, 2010

The Canon S series (S90/S95) have manual mode as well. The S95 is going for $400, and the S90 around $350 these days. I believe it's the same sensor as the G cameras, but in a considerably smaller package size. Plus they shoot RAW. I chose the S90 because it's a true pocket cam, as opposed to the G series which are larger. My logic was that if I can't slip it in a small pocket, I may as well just carry a DSLR. You can get some pretty great shots with this little cam.

Snowgirl · November 1, 2010

kdog wrote: »

The Canon S series (S90/S95) have manual mode as well. The S95 is going for $400, and the S90 around $350 these days. I believe it's the same sensor as the G cameras, but in a considerably smaller package size. Plus they shoot RAW. I chose the S90 because it's a true pocket cam, as opposed to the G series which are larger. My logic was that if I can't slip it in a small pocket, I may as well just carry a DSLR. You can get some pretty great shots with this little cam.

Marc Meunsch carries an S90 to keep it handy.

ThatCanonGuy · November 1, 2010

mercphoto wrote: »

That's exactly what I want. If I want complications I get the dSLR. If I grab the point and shoot its because I only want to point and shoot. That camera stays on "P" 99% of the time.

I want simplicity in my P&S too, but I think at least Av is a must. I like to set my exposure so I can control the photo. I'm not gonna trust the camera on Auto. Auto is written by some guy over in Japan sitting at a desk who is not a photographer. Why should I trust an important photo to a non-photographer? Just because I'm using a p&s doesn't mean it's not an important photo I'm taking. I still plan to post process and everything.

Hey, it's not just Canon. I shoot Nikon dSLRs and have a Sony for a P&S... but only because it has manual mode. (along with A/S/P modes) My first digicam was a Sony, so I was always drooling over the F717 (which I have owned) and now have an F828. (also a big drool factor in the day) Love shooting A & M on this swivel bod.

So get away from Canon, look at other brands and find what works for you. The manual P&S cams are out there. Doesn't make you unloyal to your cam, just a smart/educated/diversified shooter. All depends on what you want...

Yeah, I hear ya. Funny you mention brand loyalty, as I was hoping to utilize the Canon Loyalty Program.:D But if that doesn't work out, I'll definitely look abroad. But never Nikon!:D

The Canon S series (S90/S95) have manual mode as well. The S95 is going for $400, and the S90 around $350 these days. I believe it's the same sensor as the G cameras, but in a considerably smaller package size. Plus they shoot RAW. I chose the S90 because it's a true pocket cam, as opposed to the G series which are larger. My logic was that if I can't slip it in a small pocket, I may as well just carry a DSLR. You can get some pretty great shots with this little cam.

The S series would be perfect for me, but I don't want to spend that much on something I'll rarely use.

How many have considered using CHDK to enable a manual mode of operation?

Does CHDK really have that feature, Ziggy? Wow, that would be wonderful. I was planning putting CHDK on whatever p&s I got!

Qarik · November 1, 2010

I don't get it. If you want "control": dslr.
If you want simnplicity: p & s.
If you want some control in your p & s, canon has several models to choose from.

Grainbelt · November 1, 2010

ThatCanonGuy wrote: »

I want simplicity in my P&S too, but I think at least Av is a must. I like to set my exposure so I can control the photo. I'm not gonna trust the camera on Auto. Auto is written by some guy over in Japan sitting at a desk who is not a photographer. Why should I trust an important photo to a non-photographer? Just because I'm using a p&s doesn't mean it's not an important photo I'm taking. I still plan to post process and everything.

With any P&S I've ever picked up, I simply turn the histogram overlay and blinkies on, shoot using live view and use EV comp. Here's why:

Unless you carry a separate light meter, you're still trusting the metering in the camera and then making adjustments.
With current IS technology, shutter speed is less important.
Aperture rarely matters since the small sensors all but negate DOF concerns, and any cheaper p&s is going to start at F3.3 anyway.
All cams have 'P' mode where you select WB and ISO.

I had a Canon S5 IS, and later a Panasonic LX3, which were both capable of shooting in manual or AV mode. There was no practical advantage to doing so with either camera except in low light or macro situations (if I knew that was in-scope, I'd bring the DSLR).

ThatCanonGuy · November 1, 2010

I don't get it. If you want "control": dslr.
If you want simnplicity: p & s.
If you want some control in your p & s, canon has several models to choose from.

I should be able to control at least the exposure on my p&s. It's a simple programming thingy that Canon can easily do. Canon does have several models to choose from: the G-series(why did I just think of Gatorade?), the S-series, and other high-end ones. Why can't they put it on their cheap ones? It's simple to do, costs virtually nothing, and if their intended point-and-shoot-simple users don't want it, they can choose P mode. But Canon's forcing pros and enthusiasts to buy high-end ones, when we have already bought a bunch of their high-end gear. Why can't Canon give us a cheap option?

With any P&S I've ever picked up, I simply turn the histogram overlay and blinkies on, shoot using live view and use EV comp. Here's why:
Unless you carry a separate light meter, you're still trusting the metering in the camera and then making adjustments.

With current IS technology, shutter speed is less important.

Aperture rarely matters since the small sensors all but negate DOF concerns, and any cheaper p&s is going to start at F3.3 anyway.

All cams have 'P' mode where you select WB and ISO.

I had a Canon S5 IS, and later a Panasonic LX3, which were both capable of shooting in manual or AV mode. There was no practical advantage to doing so with either camera except in low light or macro situations (if I knew that was in-scope, I'd bring the DSLR).

You bring up a good point about DOF and SS. But most (at least some) of Canon's lower-end models don't have IS. Yes, I'm trusting the metering to some extent (to get me in the ballpark), but I'm still setting everything myself, like on my DSLR. As for DOF, you have a point. There's not gonna be much difference with the small sensor. Still, with plenty of light, I'd rather be able to set ISO 100, f/8, 1/640th than hope the camera does that instead of f/3.3, 1/1200 (just examples).

ivar · November 1, 2010

I have SLRs and I use the camera on my phone quite a bit for snapshots and I'm happy with that.

You just don't get a SLR in such a small package. It feels somewhat as if you are looking for something like that. Size comes with compromises in things like user-friendliness, quality, options and (lack of) controls. Also, if you are used to SLR quality, any P&S image will be disappointing if you are expecting SLR quality.

Having said that, I believe even the Elph series have exposure compensation in the menu, so you can at least control exposure that way?

ziggy53 · November 1, 2010

A fair number of entry level P&S cameras lack an aperture. They rely on imager sensitivity (and signal gain) and electronic shutter speeds to control exposure. Some additionally have an ND filter that can slide into place.

It would be wrong to assume that entry level P&S cameras have anywhere near the accuracy of exposure control that more advanced cameras enjoy. Most P&S cameras use the imager itself as the exposure sensor as well, and they simply stop the exposure when a certain program of exposure has been achieved.

While some P&S cameras may indeed allow manual override of some functions, you cannot enable things which are beyond the design of the camera. Likewise CHDK may allow some additional manual control, but nothing beyond the design of the camera.

ThatCanonGuy · November 1, 2010

I'm not looking for SLR IQ or complexity, I'm simply looking to be able to control my photos by selecting my own aperture, SS and ISO. Canon has it on their higher p&s's, why can't they have it on all of them?

kdog · November 1, 2010

Asked:

ThatCanonGuy wrote: »

I'm not looking for SLR IQ or complexity, I'm simply looking to be able to control my photos by selecting my own aperture, SS and ISO. Canon has it on their higher p&s's, why can't they have it on all of them?

And answered:

ziggy53 wrote: »

A fair number of entry level P&S cameras lack an aperture. They rely on imager sensitivity (and signal gain) and electronic shutter speeds to control exposure.
[...]
While some P&S cameras may indeed allow manual override of some functions, you cannot enable things which are beyond the design of the camera.

ThatCanonGuy · November 2, 2010

kdog wrote: »

Asked:

And answered:

I don't get this. If you have a lens, you have to have an aperture. Aperture is a measurement of how much light gets through the lens. Maybe you can't change it, but there is one. Am I wrong? Like take this for example, the front of the lens states the zoom and aperture:
http://www.letsgodigital.org/images/artikelen/6/powershot-a480.jpg

ivar · November 3, 2010

ThatCanonGuy wrote: »

I Aperture is a measurement of how much light gets through the lens.

actually, not really. Aperture is the size of the opening so to speak and the f-number is the relation of the focal length to that opening. The f-number can change if focal length changes but the aperture remains constant.

Matthew Saville · November 3, 2010

ivar wrote: »

actually, not really. Aperture is the size of the opening so to speak and the f-number is the relation of the focal length to that opening. The f-number can change if focal length changes but the aperture remains constant.

Correct, and this still dictates that, physically, ALL lenses inherently have an aperture. You might not be able to CONTROL the aperture in many P&S cameras, in fact because depth of field is so deep on a P&S they may not even bother to give the aperture the mechanical ability to stop down, although I've never heard of that before.

=Matt=

ziggy53 · November 3, 2010

I should have used the term "adjustable aperture", which many P&S cameras do not have.

All cameras do have some sort of aperture value to be sure. If the camera has a zoom lens the aperture value probably even changes through the zoom range.

ThatCanonGuy · November 3, 2010

OK, I get it. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

BTW, I checked and CHDK allows for manual exposure override

JC · November 3, 2010

Qarik wrote: »

I don't get it. If you want "control": dslr.
If you want simnplicity: p & s.

Because sometimes you are lugging a 50 lb backpack, with a belt full of tools, more tools in your hands, and it's not practical to carry a DSLR, but then at 4:30 pm, on a cliff face, looking into the sun, will be something that just begs to be photographed. Or those little white grass flowers that get your attention at 8:30 am, that look great backlit, or that hot pink cactus flower in the middle of the day. The rest of the day, you just want to snap a quick shot and move on.

Oh, and sometimes you want all that, and for it to use AA batteries as well.

Canon: C'mon Man! :/

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