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Fstoplife
Registered Users Posts: 190 Major grins
Am I being unreasonable in thinking that in order to charge people a sitting fee of $100 for the first hour and $50 each additional hour you need to know how to use your camera. If you don't know how to control DOF, shutter speeds and what the outcome is of each change you make with these things, should you be charging that much? If you have never taken a photo outside of the trees in your backyard, birds, bees, and flowers, should you be charging 150 for taking photos of a newborn baby? This was asked on another forum and I got so bashed for thinking that you should only charge that much if you can deliver the quality photos that come with it. I just feel you need to know these things in order to deliver a quality photograph. I just wanted some other opinions, I can't be the only photographer who thinks this....
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~This post is a natural product made from recycled electrons. The slight variations in spelling and grammar enhance its individual character and beauty and in no way are to be considered flaws or defects.~
~This post is a natural product made from recycled electrons. The slight variations in spelling and grammar enhance its individual character and beauty and in no way are to be considered flaws or defects.~
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No, I don't think so.
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Moderator of: Location, Location, Location , Mind Your Own Business & Other Cool Shots
In reading through and seeing the reason for your question, it falls into line with the largely sad and unrealistic mentality and beliefs many people on forums hold dear.
I wonder of those that lambasted your opinion which seems more than reasonable to me, how many of those people had actually earned their living in photography for any length of time as against the amount that were a bunch of tryhards with experience amounting to nothing more than the clap trap they have taken on board from forums.
I have participated on quite a few forums in a variety of subjects and interests and the views put forward, usually as gospel by those that know the least, never fail to amaze me.
You can learn a lot from forums, unfortunately probably more bad than good and the mantra's and folk lore's some participants dream up is so far detached from reality in a lot of cases, you just have to wonder what the people were not only smoking at the time they came up with it, but what the heck everyone else is smoking to maintain the flawed belief.
In this case, I would say it's a lot of wannabe's trying to protect their vested interests and recognising that many of them don't know what they are doing and trying to defend something that otherwise poses a great danger to their Delusions of grandeur.
The thing is, these " I got a camera for Christmas so now I'm a photographer" wanna be's should stick to taking pics for the enjoyment of it at least until they have mastered the basics and controls. They should only attempt to try to charge and be a professional shooter ( which is what taking payment makes them by definition if not qualification) when they have aquired the skills to deliver a product of merchantable quality and could meet the expectations of a reasonable client when they have put in the time and effort to know what they are doing.
It's not a matter of charging how much, it's more a case that they should not be charging at all! Unless they tell people " I have no knowledge of what I'm doing, the camera is doing everything the same as it would if your had it so the results may not be anywhere near the standard you would get from an experienced shooter" they are basically taking money under false pretenses.
Yeah sure, they may be cheap, but while cheap brings with it certain lowering of expectations, that stops before people get to sub standard work from people whom have no idea what they are doing.
Unfortunately the Auto everything nature of camera's these days makes people think if they can aim the thing, press the button and get a pic on the screen, they are photographers.
I wonder how confident they would feel about getting a set of tools and working on their own vehicles with the same level of (in) experience? I'd like to turn the tables and put the arguments forward to insist they do that that they use for being photographers and then see what they thought.
" You have a full set of tools, so go ahead, tear your engine down. You don't need to know what a camshaft or con rod does, you have the tools to take care of all that for you, so get into it !"
Hopefully one of them picks he wrong client and gets draqgged through the consumer courts and gives the rest of them a heads up to know what they are doing before they take anyone's money.
No not all................
Yes, you are being unreasonable. Nobody coming to a session cares about your equipment or DOF. They care about the experience and results that exceed expectations. Rather than focussing on image quality, you need to create a bit of magic. Then you can charge 1000$ - for the 1k they will expect champagne and shrimp.
Why does everybody who had a dslr think they now have to charge to take pictures?
Really...if you are not producing "actual" professional quality work why do people feel the need to charge.....and even more nuts is that people are willing to pay them for their mediocre work.
Seriously....3/4 of the work I see being advertised as professional work could be duplicated by simply buying your own dslr...putting everything on automatic and shooting your own pictures, or have a friend do it. The quality would be indistinguishable from what most "pros" these days deliver.
Wonder why the photography market is in the dumps?
What this does is reduce the overall expectations of the market. People look at their friends photos, that are probably crap, but everyone tells them how great they look, because really the layman can't tell the difference between a good photo and a bad one unless they are side by side, so their expectations for what they expect from their photography are in line with those crap photos.
The couples that are lucky enough to stumble across a photographer who delivers an actual "pro" quality product (if they have the capability of recognizing the difference) then has to stop and wonder. Yeah these look great but is it worth all that money when all my friends pictures (which were actually crap) were so well received and they paid next to nothing for them.....hmmmmmm.
Rant over
So to your question: No you are not being unreasonable.
Changes are happening at TURBO speed in the photography industry....it will be very interesting to see where we are in 5 years.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/21695902@N06/
http://500px.com/Shockey
alloutdoor.smugmug.com
http://aoboudoirboise.smugmug.com/
As a photographer I feel that you have to make some decisions as you go right? You have to decide if you want the whole background in focus, or you want yummy bokeh, you have to decide if you want to stop motion or you want the blur that it sometimes makes, and can be pretty, such as rivers and streams. If you don't know your equipment, how it works and what each thing does, then how can you make those choices? You can get lucky with the settings on auto, the camera might make the right decision, but I think it's more important to know why the background was in focus, you know what I mean?
Nobody cares? of course they do, if I am paying 150 for a sitting fee, I get home, i like the pics, they are okay, she got some decent shots. I am happy, then my neighbor goes to a photographer who has taken the time to learn about the equipment and what does what, she charges 150 for a sitting fee, and they are awesome, a billion times better than mine. I will be angry and I'd call her up, yes this is from a whole different side, but I think it's very important to know how to create the shot you are going for. Photographer are supposed to be artist, right, not camera operators. If you can't control the way your camera shoots, how are you making art the way you want it. If i want the shot where my kid is in focus and the whole bg is the bokeh from Xmas lights, I need to know how to do that, I need to create.
And others are right, if people are paying for it, then obviously she is making money and all is fine and dandy, go her, but on a personal level and this is my opinion, I just feel that you can't call yourself a photographer if you don't know your camera. If you want to charge for time, fine charge something minimal, maybe enough to cover your gas money to get to the shoot. I am not bashing anyone, and some people do pick up the camera and just feel it, and make it work, but for the vast majority of people it does not happen like that, and we work hard to learn exposure, lighting, WB, DOF, everything we can about lenses. We ask for critique then we go back and rework until we get it, we practice. I would not, personally, charge someone 150 to take a picture of their newborn, when I have never photographed a newborn before, it just doesn't seem like the right thing to do.
This is only my opinion. I saw something that irked me and I wanted to share with people who I assumed were like minded and would think the same way I did. I am so glad I am not crazy
~This post is a natural product made from recycled electrons. The slight variations in spelling and grammar enhance its individual character and beauty and in no way are to be considered flaws or defects.~
I shoot mostly sports and more and more people are coming to me wanting some portrait and wedding work because I want to expand into these areas I have been up front with them about my experience level and I do not charge a sitting fee because of that so far everybody is happy.
To go along with what others have said some people get the gear and want to instantly be a Pro charging the big money it seems there are a lot of people that do not want to pay their dues to get to the level of a semi pro or pro.
Fstoplife your not out of line
You must have posted just before mine.
http://www.realphotoman.com/
Work in progress
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You guys are complaining that some weekend warrior is charging for their images.. Yet if I go back a couple of pages, people are complaining that weekend warriors are not charging for their images.. So which is it? Seems that the weekend warriors get thrown under the bus no matter what they are doing.
I have to worry about the working pro who has the time to worry about what the weekend warrior is doing. If your clients are shopping prices, you have better things to worry about than some kid who got a camera for Christmas. If this working pro is competing with the weekend warrior, maybe that pro should take a long hard look at their business model.
The real marketplace has a way of weeding out those who cannot deliver for their client. The real working pro is focused on this, not the kid down the street.
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True I believe there will always be a market for the customer who can tell the difference and has the means to pay for higher quality.
The bottom is dropping out of the middle market and the numbers from the middle that will stretch to the higher quality product are diminishing.
The discussion here is more based on why does everyone with a dslr immediatly thing they are a pro and need to charge money for their work.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/21695902@N06/
http://500px.com/Shockey
alloutdoor.smugmug.com
http://aoboudoirboise.smugmug.com/
I hear this a lot on the online forums, yet out here in the real world we survive rather well. I live and work just outside of San Francisco and I would be willing to bet that there are thousands (maybe tens of thousands) who call themselves photographers.
Our business model does not include competing with weekend warriors or those who shoot for $10 an hour. Although I am pretty sure that we have them here in the bay area. We succeed by exceeding the needs of our clients, not by worrying about what some kid with a camera is doing. I cannot tell you the rate of a single photographer working here in the area, yet somehow we succeed.
Granted, we may very well be the luckiest photographers on the west coast, so our focusing on business may not be the thing that works for others, but it has worked for us. Yes, 100% of my income is photography related, and I am not even the only photographer who shoots under the Cygnus banner.
Maybe if we were trying to get jobs off of craigslist or some of these other sites that kids with cameras advertise on I would understand this degradation that I hear so much about on the forums. If we were going after $10 an hour clients we would have to change our business model. Since we don't, we leave that for the kids with cameras.
Actually is the easy part. If your client cannot tell the difference between your work and the person who just bought a camera, why not pay the cheaper price? You guys like to blame the new photographer for ruining the whole business but it doesn't make it the truth.
Buying a camera does not make you a photographer. Building a website doesn't make you a business person either. It takes more than good pictures to survive out here in the real world.
Website
No.
What is being complained about is the erosion of the business and percieved value of photography through the substandard work that poorly skilled amateurs are infecting it with, wether they charge for that crap work or not.
So far I'm only seeing a single page for this thread so I can only guess as to what your refering to. Going on the comment of amateurs not charging, the problem is there that they are taking away paying jobs from the pros who make their living in the game or even a worthwhile part time income, because they want to play shooter.
As has been said a million times, I'm sure if I turned up to their workplace and said to their boss that I would do thier job for nothing because I liked doing it and their boss said to them, " Don't bother coming in tomorrow, we'll use this guy who will work for free" they would go off their tree.
We grumble on a forum. I think we have every reason to.
If your not a weekend warrior I have to wonder how you can't see the problem?
This si a problem that by some miracle you may not have felt the effects from so far but it will get you and all of us. I wasn't very worried by it even 6 months ago but recent experience has given me a first hand taste.
This sort of statement makes it sound as if the problem is in the control of the professional shooter. 99% of it is not.
I would know business a hell of a lot better than the majority of shooters here or anywhere else and it is not just as simple as offering a better product or promotiong your business or whatever.
The working pro always has to worry about competition that undermines his market share and devalues his industry. How could anyone in any industry not? To be ignorant to the market forces at play is a sure recipe for financial disaster as a working pro would realise where others probably wouldn't and thus creating another part of the problem.
Any working pro that dosen't have his head in the sand or stuck up his nether regions would realise that it is inescapeable that a great range of clients are focussed on price like never before. This isn't only in the photo market, its globally. You can see and hear storys relating to this every single night on the news.
Perhaps you are more sheltered from this in the commercial market than the domestic one but it is a real and growing problem for the entire industry and one that all pros are going to be affected by sooner or later. there is no doubt of that.
As I said before, these weekend hackers come in spouting cheap ( or free) pricing but they never say they are going to give a sub par product which inevitably many do. Even if their work is up to par, undercutting still puts the pro out of a job. A job that he can't make up the lost income from by going back to his 9-5 work on monday morning like the wannabe hackers can.
As was well stated above, when clients see work that was paid for at a price level that is laughed at by other work at the same price level, then the whole value of the industry is devalued and ultimately they go back to taking their own shots because they can get them for free and they look the same as what they paid for. If you are not turning out truly outstanding work that there is no comparison possible to what these people are flooding the market with, then maybe a nasty and sudden wake up call is on it's way to you as well.
And what is "the real" marketplace exactly?
Where the people looking to hire someone and spend money take the cheapest deal because everything on offer below rolls Royce standard looks the same and that which stands out is underpriced anyway?
Is that the real marketplace your talking about?
As already mentioned and I fully agree with, the clients have a lot of trouble telling the difference nowdays with the overall lowering of standards of imagery.
Added to that, in my experience, low/ free pricing makes up for an awful lot of sins and people will satisfy themselves with some pretty poor work if the price was right. The clients Content themselves, someone else sees the work and the cycle as described is in motion.
From the sounds of it, you seem to have a very out of touch perception of what is happening out there, perhaps as a result of coming from a different aspect to photographers working mainly in the domestic market.
What is happening at the greass roots level will filter up to the commercial level and there are plenty of accounts of that happening i have read on this very forum.
This we agree on but you don't seem to get they aren't surviving.
They are just making pocket money or playing Photographer dress up and then going back to their day jobs.
Fine for them but every time they do this its taking income away from someone who relies on it for their living.
I think your outlook while basicaly positive, is rather dangerous and if the penny hasn't dropped to what is being discussed here, unfortunately it soon will.
For the last couple of years I have heard how newbies are killing the business. When exactly did this start, 1980, 1990, 2000, 2005, 2010?
I have not taken jobs at $10 an hour, so I didn't lose the client who is shopping for that price. I cannot lose something that I didn't have to begin with.
Currently in the commercial market video is what is killing most photographers. Why? Because most are not smart enough to evolve their business model to satisfy the client.
Photography isn't special, it is just like any other business out there. There are low end clients and there are high end clients. It is the choice of the photographer who they wish to deal with.
There is a wedding guy right here in SF that charges $10,000 and up and yet is stupid busy, but if I were to live on the forums I would never believe it was possible. I am relatively sure that he has even been a guest speaker at some of the smugmug meetings...
My point is that if you find yourself competing with a newcomer your business model needs to change. Unlike life on the internet in the real business world excuses won't help you survive.
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I do not compete directly with the lower tiers where there is a feeding frenzy of competition at low quality but like I said they are there cutting the legs out of the industry for everyone......sooner or later.
I will say that anyone that not see the problems out there in the industry and that prepares and stays ahead of the curve enough to tweak their business model will fail.
Have you noticed how many established photographers are now giving seminars. They have seen the writing on the wall and have been smart enough to turn the tide of inexperienced newbies in their favor, and are happily taking their money.
So many of these inexperienced newbies are looking for that golden ticket that one secret the perfect piece of equipent that will make them a good photographer.....when the truth of the matter is that there is no golden ticket and no seminar and no matter how much money they spend on equipment that is going to make them a good photographer.
There is no way to get around experience and paying your dues to become a good photographer.
As mentioned before there is a HUGE disparity between actual good photography and what the layman on web forums and facebook think are good photographs and it is only getting worse as the overall standards are lowered......good enough is a moving standard.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/21695902@N06/
http://500px.com/Shockey
alloutdoor.smugmug.com
http://aoboudoirboise.smugmug.com/
And you believe that this is a new phenomenon? I understand that you want people to agree with you that newbies are killing the industry.
Granted it is fun to go online and complain about how joe kid down the street is ruining things and ultimately others who are also suffering will join in and tell you that it isn't your fault that you are losing business.
I cannot think of an industry that doesn't complain about the newcomers hurting the business. Things change, always have, always will. The ones who survive understand this and deal with it.
There are all sorts of excuses used for failing in business.. Location, economy, newbies, weather, money, ect.... Ever notice the successful ones are not the ones complaining?
Smugmug has a handful of "house pros" and pros that they invite to the their meetings, but none have come in complaining.. Maybe they are simply lucky also.
This is not new either. Pros have been holding workshops for 100 years. Yes, there are more newbies than in years past, but the business model of providing training to them is not new.
Website
I am not complaining about joe kid, just stating the facts about the state of the industry.
I am not losing business to anyone, as I said I am as busy as I want to be.
I hope you continue to be successful...I really do....but really if you believe what you are saying....you are going to get a rude reality check one of these days probably not to far away.
I'm out.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/21695902@N06/
http://500px.com/Shockey
alloutdoor.smugmug.com
http://aoboudoirboise.smugmug.com/
I agree with both of you in some instances. If you have quality work and try to stay on top of the industry, you should have nothing to worry about. However, how many advertisements on craigslist do you see for auto repair out of someone's home garage? or a video store from someone's living room? Annie's flower shop in the kitchen? A photography business is uniquely simple to start by aaaanyone. Most probably aren't even legally registered and such.
I agree with the sentiment here.
I have lost business to the hackers and I don't compete in the $10 market which in some way makes me perhaps more vulnerable in some markets because there is more to save/ gain but giving the people who are cheap or doing work for free a go. I think those that believe all it takes is great work to keep your head above water are incredibly naieve.
So many places I go now I see people waving white lenses around and plenty of them. It used to be rare to see people with the same gear I had, now it's common. Sure they don't have the knowledge and experience I do with it but there is no denying the playing field is getting a lot more leveled and with the capeabilitys of camera's these days, it is getting harder to distance yourself in some areas.
This is not a problem in itself but is is a contributing factor to a much larger and difficult one.
Perhaps some people have managed to escape the newb onslaught, like I said I can see it being easier in the commercial than the domestic market but that won't last forever and I agree those that deny the problem are in for a rude shock and it will be sooner rather than later.
Perhaps some haven't been in the industry long enough to recognise that while there have always been newbs undercutting and giving work away, the propensity of this occouring has never been anything like what it is now going back the 30 years I have been in the game.
Along the same lines, pro level gear has never been cheaper or more affordable and the capeabilities of the amateur level gear now is well above what pro level gear was 10 years ago.
The basic premise of camera manufacturers now is to use technology to compensate as much as possible for a lack of operator skill. Yeah, you can still make a dogs breakfast of things but with a bit of effort and care, your in with a heck of a lot better chance of producing a winner than ever before.
Yeah, things change but the amount of change and frequency of the problem has been unprecidented in my experience so far and I have managed to not only survive but make a decent living in this game for a good while now and longer than a lot of the wannabee's I have seen have been born.
There is a fine line between confidence and ignorance and I'll err on the side of caution.
When people from around the world comment on the same problem in an industry, its a sure bet it's real despite the fact some have still to feel the effects.
As the younger generation gain economic power they will still have photographs as a central need in their lives and will look for professional help on the important occasions - at least this is my expectation.
The pros are adapting. People will not pay top dollar for snapshot quality while they will pay well for style and service. I see this change in my area already - the old-school pros who delivered snapshots with little artistry and little service (eg do your own framing, no digitals, slow delivery, no photoshop) are gradually going out-of-business. They relied on their equipment and basic facilities like a studio with a backcloth and a couple of lights - not enough these days. Customers are learning to demand a lot more.
The industry is at an inflection point, clearly. The catalyst is the digital photo and the momentum behind that catalyst are products like Photoshop, SmugMug etc.. Barriers to entry have been significantly lowered thanks to the DSLR price point. When I first got into photography, my first camera was a Pentax ME Super. I remember what it was like to bracket photos, the time and effort behind taking all the notes, film development, then the evaluation... Things are a little bit different in the digital world.
I really don't see the market eroding. I see that the market has expanded. I don't think the Kid with a new DSLR selling on craigslist is poaching business that would have gone to the Pro's. For sure, with the current economic conditions, there are more people price shopping that further lowers the barriers to entry for the Kid. But we can't assume that the people hiring the Kid would have hired a Pro 5 or 10 years ago. Rather, I think that those people would have asked uncle Larry to take the wedding photos. So from that perspective, a new class of buyer has emerged expanding the market. It is our individual choice if we chase that demographic or not.
The cost of operating a photography business has significantly been reduced. Simply by eliminating the film development process, increasing post processing capability, etc. has reduced overall cost, and increased the number of engagements one can book due to the reduced time to get a client back their photos, not to mention all the help we get from resources like SmugMug (another barrier gone).
What is acceptable today is a lower standard than what was in the past. I feel that much of the artistic and technical talent that goes into a great photo from the camera has given way to the sizzle of post processing and is less appreciated. Part of this inflection point are the priorities of the buyer. Those priorities are changing and the speed of delivery seems more important then the quality of the photo, including its composition for certain classes of buyers.
I am sure there are other dynamics at play here. But with all that has been said, if you agree that an inflection point does exist, then you should feel compelled to take a step back and assess which direction you are going and which rung of the ladder you will stand. Decide on your distribution channels and dominate them in your local market. Promote your differentiators in your chosen market and most of all, delight your clients. Make sure that after they do business with you, the next time they will just call you and not go shopping. We all know the cost of finding a new client is orders of magnitude more than repeat business.
I know this is not comprehensive, and not all of these drivers have relevance for everyone, but to be sure, things are changing.
So who is buying the first round!