Amature sports photography

db27513 · October 30, 2012

Hello - virgin poster here. For quite some time Ive been contemplating the concept of small photo business arranged around the idea of photographing amature people playing sports (mostly of sports I enjoy - as in tennis) and dropping a them a business card with a referenced album number, which they can punch in later that evening and view some hopefully awesome photos of themselves playing tennis or whatever. Hopefully they would be interested in purchasing a pic or two of themselves in action. Something that I think they would be interested in. I know I would (being a weekend jock).

As I see it, each album would be for there eyes only, unless they wanted to make it public. The could delete it if they wished. Would be hosted through Smugmug.

Any thoughts on this? Does it sound doable? Could also apply to random moments of parents with kids.. was walking a parking lot and happened to see a dad sitting on the tailgate of his minivan, with his daughter sharing a little lunch while waiting for mom.. very cute. Snap a pic, hand a card, and so it goes.

Thoughts? I assume model license agreements aren't necessary because the photos arent public?

Dave in New Bern, NC

Icebear · October 30, 2012

Dave, welcome to DGrin. You'll find this to be a pretty unique community. Quite knowledgeable, generally respectful and polite, usually honest (sometimes painfully.) IMO, your business model is around 5 years out of date. The ubiquity of very capable, very affordable, consumer-grade DSLRs and reasonably capable camera phones has changed the game to an unimaginable degree. Most consumers of spur-of-the-moment youth sports photography are more interested in quantity of photos as they are in quality of photos. The hard truth is that "good enough is good enough." Look around at any event. How many dozen cameras do you see? Now, ask yourself how many of those people will pay $$ for shots someone else took. Unless you have access to shooting positions that they don't, forget it. Enjoy your hobby.

mercphoto · October 30, 2012

That is a business model that just won't work and many people have tried it. As John says, good enough is good enough. People generally won't bother going online hours or days later to purchase a print. You need to be involved with a league and show images and takes orders AT THE EVENT.

AceCo55 · October 31, 2012

The world is drowning in images. People today expect instant gratification - they might buy AT THE EVENT if they know they can't get any other opportunity. I do what you are proposing as a hobby and a service for sports in our little country town. I upload 20,000 - 40,000 images a year. Sales of a single print = ZERO!! Some people will buy a disk of images, or a framed poster or a slideshow. They all love to look and that is good enough for me ... but I can't image creating a money generating business around what you are proposing.

db27513 · October 31, 2012

Thanks for the feedback. Agree with the "world is flooded with images" and camera phones are good enough images. But I hope to prove you all wrong and give it a try. Im thinkng the weekend jock thing might be the sweet spot. Ive been playing tennis for 30 years and no one has ever snapped a pic of my herculean efforts on the court.

As a side note, I also ride motorcycles. Theres a place in NC where ALLOT of enthusiasts like to ride (Deals Gap), and there are several long lens camera stations setup along the route, snapping photos and selling pics after the day is done on a web site.. I bought one. Must be my excessive vanity ;-)

Anyways, thanks for commenting.

Dave in New Bern, NC

johng · October 31, 2012

Dave - you hit it at the end. You bought ONE. How many pictures of you playing tennis for example do you think YOU would buy? Are you going to buy a photo every time you play tennis? Or ride? That is essentially the heart of the problem - even those people who would buy a picture want to buy maybe ONE. Here's what makes it worse - let's say you want a 5x7. Put that in your smugmug shopping cart then look at what you have to pay for shipping. THAT turns off a lot of people - people are used to free shipping. When they're buying $100 they don't mind paying a couple bucks but buying ONE? So, on the one hand you've got adult participants who typically don't buy lots and lots of photos - then the hassle of going on line - then paying shipping. Each step of that process loses you customers. By all means - give it a go. In many cases though - when you factor in time and expenses, the "salary" you pay yourself ends up being below minimum wage. Give it a go. Hopefully it works for you. Let me throw out another expense you may not have thought of - liability. As you start trying to produce photos worth paying for you find yourself closer to the action. Which means you raise the possibility of being involved in an accident. For tennis that's pretty low I admit - but for other sports, not so much. Someone collides with you while you are shooting and YOU could be sued. You may want to consider bonding and / or liability insurance. You are no longer a spectator - so things change. Then you have the cost of smugmug pro account which has gone up - plu their 15% take - plus travel and expense for you (including tagging the images, processing them and uploading them). Plus gear depreciation. When you start factoring in all the costs like a business, the resulting salary is often pretty low. But, outside of the liability issue, there's little harm in giving it a go. Good luck!

Icebear · October 31, 2012

db27513 wrote: »

Thanks for the feedback. Agree with the "world is flooded with images" and camera phones are good enough images. But I hope to prove you all wrong and give it a try. Im thinkng the weekend jock thing might be the sweet spot. Ive been playing tennis for 30 years and no one has ever snapped a pic of my herculean efforts on the court.

As a side note, I also ride motorcycles. Theres a place in NC where ALLOT of enthusiasts like to ride (Deals Gap), and there are several long lens camera stations setup along the route, snapping photos and selling pics after the day is done on a web site.. I bought one. Must be my excessive vanity ;-)

Anyways, thanks for commenting.

Dave in New Bern, NC

Those guys/gals shooting riders on the Dragon have an established system. People riding the Dragon know about the photos, and know they're going to get "shot" on their ride, so they're conditioned to look themselves up. The Dragon is a really special case and you'll set yourself up for a lot of disappointment if you try to model after those guys/gals.

jmphotocraft · October 31, 2012

Sure, you will get the odd sale here and there, and that's a bit of a thrill. Most likely you won't make enough to cover the $300/yr SmugMug Pro membership though. Ironically the SmugMug business model of shoot, upload, email, pray for sales simply doesn't work unless your client base is already prepped to expect photos for sale, like in a youth sports league where this is standard operating procedure. I've shot my town's little league baseball and soccer as the official photog, and there is already a culture of having the kids' pictures taken in uniform, so SmugMug works there.

At any other event if you want to make any significant amount of money you need to be selling on the spot - either by selling prints right there or by taking orders at special "today-only" prices. Otherwise, the vast majority of people will simply see your photos online, send the link around for their friends and family to enjoy, share it on facebook with a link or a screenshot (watermark and all), and then they are done with it. They don't need to buy the photo then.

Mike J · October 31, 2012

Dave - you are hearing some good advice from some very experienced sports shooters who have been around for a while. As long as you set your expecations correctly, go for it. I've been doing this for far fewer years than other folks but here is what I've learned...

Be prepared to market yourself aggresively. The shoot and place on web model and hope they come is very difficult. The first step is making all of your potential customers aware of the photos. Tihs means you will be talking to everyone on the tennis courts that you shoot.

Find profitable niches and think about demographics. I have two models that work for me: youth ski racing and prepaid soccer game coverage. Ski racing has everything going for me. A wealthy demographic and a sport that is hard to photograph well. This is a sport where good photos really stand out from the Moms and Pops PLUS they are willing to pay for them (they have the means). I use a combination model here. I offer prepaid services (digital season passes) and orders after the fact. The bulk of my revenue here comes from the digital season passes. 2nd highest are sales of digital downloads. Prints are a distant 3rd. I spend a far amount of time making it easy for folks to find the photos they want. Check out the Find Your Photo function at: http://www.mikejulianaphotography.com/SkiRacing/2012-Season No one wants to look through lots of photos of other people to find the ones they are intereted in. This is a HUGE competitive advantage for me and my customers have told me this. It takes time to keyword all of these photos. You may come up with a different solution but make it easy to find the photos they want.

The 2nd model is my prepaid soccer game coverage. I've worked with a league the last couple of years that pays me to shoot every team in their league. I know I make money going to the games, parents get the image free to them (my fee is covered by their registration fee). Plus I skim a little more with custom product sales after the fact (these are things that the average parent could not do on their own). I'm still debating if this approach is better than a standard T&I contract though... Is a prepaid model something that could work for you?

Invest in your business - get your own domain name and your own email address. Nothing turns me off faster than seeing a business email with gmail or hotmail in it. Invest in your website. Look professional in everythinig you do.

Invest in your gear - there are lots of cameras out there but fewer 2.8 lenses. Proper positioning and the ability to get a shallow DOF can make a difference and let your photos stand out a little bit from the Mom's and Pop's. Is it good enough? That will depend on your demographics....

Look at lots of photos of the sports you intend to shoot - learn from others. Look at lots of things. Where are folks positioning themselves, what angles, etc.

Sorry for the diatribe. We all wish you luck. Be prepared to work hard and build it over a couple years. Please keep us up-to-date on how things are going. Post photos as well.

Kikoprice · October 31, 2012

Ill throw my 2 cents in.

I'm doing exactly what your talking about doing. My son and I shoot Prep & JC sports, MX racing, surfing, saltwater fishing, boating, water skiers, etc etc. You put it online and sure you will get lots of traffic, but that doesnt equate to sales. Your now a free photo album, why buy it when they can just look at it online? So I tried putting a 2 week limited viewing time, then its a $50 dollar reposting fee in addition to the purchase. It does help to motivate the ones that are going to buy, to do it now. Everyones else is a Lookie Lou. We sell about 4-5K per year, thats for Prep/JC sports we cover.

The amount of time and effort etc divided by the revenue generated does not add up. We are still trying to find the perfect mix. I dont know if there is one. I do get to spend more time with my son who is now in college. He gets to learn how to deal with editors, sports writers, school officials, players, officials, other photographers, TV crews and anyone else I can get him in contact with.

We also shoot for one of the largest obstacles races in the country. They have gone to a "free picture for racers" which works for everyone involved. Racers get free pictures to pass around, race event gets more hits which leads to bigger sold out events, and they pay us a great day rate {its usually 2 days and hotel if we travel}.

Do you see where this is headed? Someone other then the subject of the picture is paying for pictures, so they get it for free. You have to find someone to pay you. Ive been drilling this into my sons head, who is going to pay? The old way doesnt seem to be working, figure a new creative way to get it done.

mercphoto · October 31, 2012

Bingo Frank! Someone has to pay you, and its often not the participants. The OP's business model of just going to random tennis courts and shooting random people is not going to work. But if you have an organization, such as a league or tournament, things get different.

If I was to get back to the amateur car racing gig, which I can't, I would have tried a sponsored package based on the "Freemium" model. This worked for me once in 2010. It can work again. Get some business to sponsor your day and let the people get some number of free water marked images. Hi res files with the sponsor's logo and stuff as a watermark. Probably in a corner. Something that doesn't offend or cover the important part of the image. People can then pay for un-watermarked images (as files or prints), collages, etc. Or have the organization pay you directly and they hide your fee in the participants entry fees.

But if you rely on the actual people to browse to your site later that day or over the next 24-72 hours to make a purchase of a print and pay shipping.... move on to another business model.

Test your idea by doing everything you originally proposed with the exception of actually talking to anyone. How much time do you spend photographing? Do you like the results? Post some here for critique BEFORE you put them for sale. How much time do you spend in post processing? In sorting and ranking and culling? In uploading? How much time PERIOD is spent without actually talking to anyone. How many pictures are you going to have to sell to make that much time worth it, and do you think that number is realistic to achieve?

Its going to be far more work than you probably envision right now.

Bryce Wilson · October 31, 2012

If I were going to even think about attempting to do what you are thinking about, I would certainly approach it a bit differently.

The key is finding people that are truly interested in the images. To find those, you have to make them commit with some sort of nominal buy in. This will keep you from wasting a lot of your time.

1. Make a portable story board or look book of really great shots you've taken of the particular sport your going to shoot. These need to stand out and have a WOW factor.

2. Introduce yourself, give them a business card and let them know what you're doing.

3. If interested in having some shots done, tell them you sitting fee for the shoot and making them available for on line viewing is X today. Make it reasonable, like 10.00. It's not so much that you're going to make a bunch of money, but it separates the people that will let you take shots for the heck of it from the ones that are truly interested.

4. Have a professional looking carbonless receipt book with your name, address, phone, website and e-mail. Have them fill out their name, number and e-mail and let them know that images will be on line for viewing in X amount of days, and that you will e-mail them with a link to their images. (This would also allow you to build an e-mail data base to use in future online marketing.)

Using the above, you still wont make a LOT of money, but you wont be wasting time and or money either.

db27513 · November 1, 2012

Wow.. thats allot of food for thought. Thanks for all the thoughtful advice. Heres what I think I just heard:

Shooting everybody and waiting/hoping a small percentage buys to cover the time/cost of shooting everybody, dont work
Finding someone (event organizer) to pay for the photos ahead of time, eliminates subject matter remembering, seeking and paying
Finding actual prints of self quickly is key (agree - motorcycle pics @ The Dragon was terrible - thousands of photos, only filter was the date, and we all look mostly the same in a thumbnail)
Prints are old school. Downloads & custom items along with prepaid may marginally float the boat
Find your niche - know your demographics - wealthy is good. Tennis check, Sailing check
Keep it professional looking, have a website and portfolio to show off your wow shots
Get good equipment & learn the sport, where to be etc

whew.. got my work cut out for me.

Q1: Someone (Bill?) mentioned the concept of getting a sponsor to pay your fee, in exchange for logos on the photos.. something like that doesnt seem feasible..

Q2: Is Smugmug the way to go? I didnt realize in addition to the fee I pay for Prof package, they also get a cut of every print... and the shipping.

Q3: This may be where I get laughed out the virtual door, but I was going to start with a superzoom.. Which gives an incredible range, w/o lots of glass & $'s. After all, am still in 'proof of concept' stage. Originally was after the Fuji X-S1 with manual zoom, but too many tech issues. What finally convinced me was the Panasonic DMC Fz200, which somehow manages to keep a crisp image, F2.8, fairly low noise @ decent ISOs across its entire zoom range. For $600 and change, I had to try it.

Thanks for weighing in

Dave In New Bern, NC

jmphotocraft · November 1, 2012

Q3: Yes, a superzoom isn't going to cut it. Often the only things that non-photographers consciously notice about professional photos are the subject in crisp focus, and a nicely blurred background. For action shots you won't get either with a superzoom. Bare minimum you are looking at a Canon Rebel T3i and a 70-200 f/4L (no IS). And nevermind getting laughed out of here, you will get laughed out of events without a professional-looking DSLR.

lifeinfocus · November 2, 2012

What is cost of entry to weekend semi/pro sports photography business? I can't say for sure. I am sure others in the post can. But, consider of cost 1. computer and software - $3,000 at least and that is if you build it yourself, 2. camera minimum $2,000 to $2,500 if you can find an excellent used one and you know what you are shopping for and where, 3. the big one - lenses - I'll let the pro sports guys post this, but to me this is the primary area that separates mom and pop snapshots and great images, 4. hosted website, 5. insurance, 6. other gear - flash, monopod,.....

Phil

mercphoto · November 2, 2012

You're looking at a super zoom point and shoot to do high action sports like tennis? Really? The autofocus won't keep up, and the shutter lag will drive you nuts. You're looking at least a $3k entry point for one camera body and one lens to do stuff like this.

jmphotocraft · November 2, 2012

lifeinfocus wrote: »

1. computer and software - $3,000 at least and that is if you build it yourself

What? Maybe if you are full time and processing thousands of files a week. Otherwise a $1500 iMac will do very nicely.

mercphoto wrote: »

You're looking at a super zoom point and shoot to do high action sports like tennis? Really? The autofocus won't keep up, and the shutter lag will drive you nuts. You're looking at least a $3k entry point for one camera body and one lens to do stuff like this.

T3i kit + 70-200/4L = $1280. It can do it. I did it with a 30D and a 70-200/4LIS. But you have to be good and shoot a lot and delete a lot. No amount of equipment can make up for the common mistakes like shooting while standing, shooting into the sun, etc.

But I'm afraid, Dave, if your level of understanding leads you to think a point-n-shoot can do it, then you are probably lacking in technique. Get a real camera and practice for yourself before you try to sell anything to anybody and embarrass yourself. (not trying to be mean, just trying to look out for you.)

johng · November 2, 2012

Jack's advice is a bit blunt regarding embarrassing yourself. But, the message is a very important one: you don't get a second chance to make a first impression. Especially considering what you want to do. The first time you present your work to your potential buyers it needs to be of salable quality. Otherwise, they'll really never consider your work again. 7 years ago, people with a DSLR could make money even if the work was just so-so because it was still leagues beyond what people were able to get with their point-and-shoot digicams. Now, however, not only do digicams get decent shots but so do smartphones. So, to get someone to reach into their wallets and PAY for a photo the quality has to be a big jump up from what their friends/family members are giving them for free from their digicams/smartphones.

Additionally, with shooting on spec (stands for shooting on speculation - shoot first, hope for sales later) like you want to do, you need great shots of EVERY competitor because you don't know who will buy. Which means every shot has to count. You won't have the luxury of 2 out of 100 shots being useful like the friends/family do.

They're going to have similar quality gear to what you want to use and the luxury of taking a lot more photos than you. So, your potential market is people competing who have no friends/family that watch them and take photos. That's a very small target market. The ones that DO have friends/family are very likely going to look at your photos and say: gee, I'm not in the gallery or those are nice but my friend took like a dozen photos that are pretty much the same quality - they're already on my facebook page so I'm good.

jhefti · November 2, 2012

I mostly shoot professional sports on assignment, so I am not experienced in the kind of business you're proposing. I suspect others here are right on the mark. However, I will relate my one experience in this area: a youth soccer tournament, which I shot as a fundraiser for my daughter's club team. (They travel all over the country, so raising money is really important as not all families can afford the travel costs.)

To start with, I advertised heavily beforehand: emails to the coaches with some of my shots in SI and other media; shameless self-promotion (an ability I don't come by naturally); hard copies of fliers--again with pix from SI and Stanford soccer--with links to a website and galleries, which were passed out to parents by volunteers at every game. I covered 49 of the 52 teams that played over two days, thanks to a very precise schedule my wife figured out that maximized coverage. I shot with two cameras, a 400mm f/2.8 and a 70-200mm f/2.8. I shot for 12 hours each day, then was up most of the night editing and posting. Each photo was individually edited, just like my take for a pro game. I then sent follow up links to the individual coaches and managers--another day of work--which directed them to their team's gallery.

This probably took 4-5 days of my time in total, a few days of my wife's time to get the schedule set up and create a list of all the email addresses of the coaches and teams (some not so easy to find). It also took 2-3 volunteers working all day Saturday and Sunday, passing out fliers and shamelessly promoting my photos. All in all, about 12-14 person/days of work.

My take? About $3K net sales. I would have rather just written a personal check for that amount...

Icebear · November 2, 2012

jhefti wrote: »

My take? About $3K net sales...

Dang. You did well.

That's a lot more than I would have expected.

mercphoto · November 2, 2012

No, he didn't do well. Works out to $60 per team, roughly. That's peanuts. For a tournament of that size you should be over $10,000. This is why he would have rather written a check than put in all that work.

What he took in is no where what you'd need to make if you were running that event as an actual business.

jmphotocraft · November 2, 2012

When I do little league, it nets me about $120 per team. Still peanuts, but I am not very aggressive with my marketing. It's a nice chunk of change at the end of the season (35 teams), but it's not worth it for a business.

I am going to try something different next time - pre-selling print coupons. Say $30 worth of prints for $20. Only in advance or at the game, and I will only do individual portraits for those who buy these. After the game, it's a la carte, no portrait, no discount.

Icebear · November 2, 2012

mercphoto wrote: »

No, he didn't do well.

That was kinda my point. Maybe I was too subtle. This game is changing so fast you can't keep up with it. What you did last year has nothing to do with the world this year.

jhefti · November 4, 2012

mercphoto wrote: »

No, he didn't do well. Works out to $60 per team, roughly. That's peanuts. For a tournament of that size you should be over $10,000. This is why he would have rather written a check than put in all that work. What he took in is no where what you'd need to make if you were running that event as an actual business.

'Zactly! $60/team is pretty piss poor. Funny thing though...at our team manager's suggestion, I put up two galleries for all the regular games: one for the team (and free) and one for the opposing team (for sale). I am averaging about $150 per game, all donated to the team fund. Perhaps I am just getting more shots when I shoot the entire game, so that accounts for the difference. In any case, sales account for more than half of the contributions to the team fund.

It's my observation that the money is made from those who are willing to print shots right at the field--even if they are really mediocre to bad. I have no interest in doing this, but I hear that one can do reasonably well.

johng · November 5, 2012

On site printing can definitely do better - but there's a lot more overhead AND you need multiple resources. You need multiple viewing stations, at least one station for editing the photos and enough printers to keep things moving. You need to have a shooter, preferably a runner (to bring cards back to stations) and then someone to do quick edits/culling. It's a daunting model. Gods honest truth - the OP can make a lot more money for a lot less hassle if they just concentrate on Team and Individual shooting - equipment costs are a lot less, and with a single assistant they can shoot an entire league in an afternoon and it's ALL guaranteed money. If a kid isn't buying you're not shooting them (except in the Team picture).

jhefti · November 5, 2012

johng wrote: »

On site printing can definitely do better - but there's a lot more overhead AND you need multiple resources. You need multiple viewing stations, at least one station for editing the photos and enough printers to keep things moving. You need to have a shooter, preferably a runner (to bring cards back to stations) and then someone to do quick edits/culling. It's a daunting model. Gods honest truth - the OP can make a lot more money for a lot less hassle if they just concentrate on Team and Individual shooting - equipment costs are a lot less, and with a single assistant they can shoot an entire league in an afternoon and it's ALL guaranteed money. If a kid isn't buying you're not shooting them (except in the Team picture).

Again, with limited experience, I think shooting specific games on assignment for specific teams is the way to go. Because I shoot a lot of high school and club games, I routinely get asked to shoot events and games for other high schools and club team. There are some very well-to-do schools where I live, and $500 assignment fees are perfectly fine. If I did have any interest in making money in this area of photography, this is certainly how I'd do it.

johng · November 5, 2012

John - from discussions with photographers around the country I would suggest your experience with High Schools willing to pay $500 event fee for one game/match is definitely NOT the norm. Kudos to you for being in such an environment. But you are the first photographer I've run across that has a High School (or booster club) paying that well for a single game/match.

jhefti · November 5, 2012

johng wrote: »

John - from discussions with photographers around the country I would suggest your experience with High Schools willing to pay $500 event fee for one game/match is definitely NOT the norm. Kudos to you for being in such an environment. But you are the first photographer I've run across that has a High School (or booster club) paying that well for a single game/match.

Ah well, it certainly could be an anomaly... I actually have not taken any assignments like this; this is just what a couple of schools have offered (and I declined). I'm not sure how sustainable it is. I do know that there are some pretty wealthy private schools in the San Francisco Bay Area, which may explain the offers.

All in all, this seems like a really hard way to make money as a photographer. I do have some photographer friends that do quite well--I'd guess well into the six digits in annual income, based on how they live--but these guys do product photography or fashion/studio work. Not my cup of tea...

lifeinfocus · November 5, 2012

jmphotocraft wrote: »

What? Maybe if you are full time and processing thousands of files a week. Otherwise a $1500 iMac will do very nicely.

I am including software, monitor calibrator, a far amount of hard drive space with backup, website... It all adds up.

PHil

jhefti · November 5, 2012

lifeinfocus wrote: »

I am including software, monitor calibrator, a far amount of hard drive space with backup, website... It all adds up.

PHil

Well, being a really quantitative type, I'll take a crack at this.

Camera: Let's say a used Canon 50d as a minimum. $500

Lens: Need a decent lens...maybe an old 70-200mm f/2.8 non IS @$1000

Peripherals: cards and readers, calibrator, stuff, $300??

Computer: Most people have a computer already, so this doesn't really factor in.

Software: LR, PS, or something similar: $0 for freeware to $500 for the real thing.

That's a pretty basic kit coming in around $2K (and I haven't even counted the computer). It would take a bit of sales to even recover these costs.

All that said, I suspect a person who markets well would do better than I do with a much more expensive kit!

mercphoto · November 5, 2012

lifeinfocus wrote: »

I am including software, monitor calibrator, a far amount of hard drive space with backup, website... It all adds up.

PHil

This isn't wedding photography. Its spec sports shooting. You COULD do this with iPhoto. Or spend $79 or so on Aperture (what I use). Nearly zero need for Photoshop. Used 40D (I used that for motorsports) or 50D. Used 70-200/2.8. $150 in hard disk space. No need at all for monitor calibration. Backup? Those photos for spec shooting lose value fast.

Amature sports photography

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