Images Uploaded to SmugMug Appear Too Dark

xluben · November 1, 2012

I have recently started having an issue where the photos I upload to SmugMug appear too dark, or to have too much contrast. The black point appears to be shifted way to the right, which loses all of the shadow detail. I just started noticing this happening a few weeks ago. I don't think anything in my workflow has changed.

Here is an example image. This is the exact same image file. The first one is uploaded to SmugMug. It is very dark and the details on the front and side of the car are pretty much totally lost. The second one is uploaded to Photobucket. It looks exactly like it does on Photoshop or Windows Explorer on my computer.

Does anyone have suggestions on what could be wrong? Did something change in SmugMug?

SmugMug:

Photobucket:

SteveM · November 1, 2012

Hi Xluben,

I'm Steve, the head of the image specialist team at SmugMug.

I've had a look, and personally I'm seeing very subtle differences that we'll talk about more. Would you classify the differences you're seeing between these two images as subtle or profound?

Can you send along a screenshot with them side-by-side as you're seeing them?

Can you also send a link to the image in the gallery on your SmugMug site (password protect if necessary if they're sensitive. No need to provide the PW).

Also, let me know the operating system, browser, and browser version you're using, and if you're using a custom monitor profile (something other than sRGB IEC61966-2.1) maybe from a calibration device?

We'll check it out!

Steve Mills
BizDev Account Manager
Image Specialist & Pro Concierge

www.DownriverPhotography.com

xluben · November 1, 2012

Steve,

Thank you for the quick response.

I have noticed something very odd, that might be of some help in solving this. I originally wrote up this post on my PC using the Chrome browser. This is typical for me, and this is the configuration that I noticed the differences. Now I am on my laptop and using FireFox, and the images no longer look different! There are the very subtle differences that you mentioned (which I believe are due to different resizing algorithms), but nothing like I was seeing using the desktop computer and Chrome.

I did take a screenshot using my desktop and Chrome browser and compared it to the same image opened up in Photoshop. Here is the result:

I believe you should be able to tell that the image on the right (uploaded to SmugMug) is much darker than the one on the left (opened in Photoshop CS6). Here are the details of my setup. These new details make it seem like something may have changed with my desktop setup, but I am concerned that I have also gotten comments from other people (using other computers), that my recent images look dark. It also seems odd that the dark images only appear that way when loaded into SmugMug, and not with Photobucket.

Setup 1 - Desktop (Dark Images)
Windows 7
Chrome Browser
Unknown Monitor Profile

Setup 2 - Laptop (Normal Images)
Windows XP
Firefox Browser
Unknown Monitor Profile

Here is a link to the gallery:

http://www.benjohnsonphotography.com/Cars/2011-WRX-Stock-Winter-Wheels/26203390_f7SGSM#!i

SteveM · November 1, 2012

xluben wrote: »

Steve,

Thank you for the quick response.

I have noticed something very odd, that might be of some help in solving this. I originally wrote up this post on my PC using the Chrome browser.

Great info! I definitely see the difference in your screenshot. The area near the license plate looks pretty clipped without detail. Much different than what I'm seeing. Here's why...

SmugMug, being the photo geeks we are, is one of the few sites that respects color profiles. Photos are displayed using the actual sRGB color profile (which I verified are present in your photos). Many other sites don't do this, and let browsers 'assume sRGB' which doesn't always work out. This is likely why you're not seeing a different on Photobucket.

But, in order to take advantage of the accurate color management, you have to have a color-aware web browser to properly display it. Firefox has been color-aware for ages, as has Safari. Chrome for Mac (my go-to browser) has been color-aware for some time as well, but Chrome on the PC just became color-aware in September from what I'm reading. Here's more info: http://photographylife.com/chrome-color-management

Can you try viewing the images again on the desktop PC with either Firefox or the updated version of Chrome? Let me know how things are looking.

In regard to the subtle differences, you're absolutely right. If you notice, the subtle differences come from the sharpening settings set in your gallery when rendering the display-sized images, to compensate for the reduced size, so it should look sharper and a little more contrasty where light/dark pixels meet (looks much better than the Photobucket render, IMO!).

Let us know what you turn up!

xluben · November 1, 2012

OK, thanks. I think we're getting somewhere. This is very helpful. If Chrome changed in September, that would make sense on the approx time that I started seeing these differences. I am confused as to why the browser becoming color-aware would make the images look different than they do in Photoshop? Shouldn't this change have made them look more like Photoshop? Are there any settings that should be changed in my images, or my SmugMug galleries?

I will have to review the current version of Chrome, and do the comparison to FireFox on my desktop PC later tonight. If I do confirm that I am on the latest version of Chrome, then would you say that it is showing me the "correct" color profile? I would be surprised/disappointed if that is the case. I will try to get some more screen shot comparisons to post later tonight too. I hope this issue can be resolved on my computer, and for everyone else viewing my images!

SteveM · November 1, 2012

Nope, you don't need to do anything for now. The 'real' version is what most folks should be seeing (including me and all of the Support Heroes I had view the images). We're not seeing the clipped blacks.

Lets see what your tests turn up tonight. Hopefully it's just a matter of an outdated version of Chrome.

All the best,

xluben · November 1, 2012

Yes, I hope so. I'm only concerned because this seems to be a recent issue for me. Previously SmugMug looked exactly like what I saw in Photoshop. This concerns me that the new version of Chrome could be causing the problem. Anyways, I will see tonight and let you know. Thanks again.

xluben · November 1, 2012

I have the current (non-beta) version of Chrome (Version 22.0.1229.94 m). I also tried downloading the current version of Firefox. They both show the same issue when viewing the photo on SmugMug. I have attached screenshots below.

Chrome Info:

Firefox Info:

Chrome Comparison (SmugMug vs. Photobucket):

Firefox Comparison (SmugMug vs. Photobucket):

xluben · November 1, 2012

I just tried downloading the Beta version of Chrome. No change at all. I also reviewed the images on this page:

http://photographylife.com/is-your-browser-color-managed

And they look 100% identical. This appears to be a problem ONLY with the images I upload to SmugMug. As I said before, this started rather recently. I always used to notice the images in Photoshop looked good, then in Windows Explorer they were slightly darker, and then SmugMug/Chrome looked good again (just like Photoshop). Now that has definitely changed. SmugMug uploaded images look so much worse. I hope we are able to figure this out.

mishenka · November 2, 2012

xluben · November 2, 2012

So, it looks like no issues on any of your browsers, correct?

I just tried reviewing the original two images on my laptop using Chrome instead of Firefox and they look just fine!

So it appears to be some combination of SmugMug and my desktop PC (and/or monitor) that is causing the problem?

mishenka · November 2, 2012

I honestly would not know what, if any, is causing the problem on your screen. I simply tried to see what you see... and could not see any difference in viewing images from smugmug and photobucket on my monitor in different browsers. So, the answer is :"yes", no issues on any of my browsers... Hope that helps.

xluben · November 5, 2012

Steve - Do you have any more suggestions on why this is not displaying properly on my desktop?

SteveM · November 5, 2012

xluben wrote: »

Steve - Do you have any more suggestions on why this is not displaying properly on my desktop?

So, I currently have two users having essentially this same problem. You on Windows, and the other on Mac.

Can you visit this page: http://cameratico.com/tools/web-browser-color-management-test/

Use each of the browsers we've been testing, and let me know the results of the tests?

xluben · November 5, 2012

Laptop Computer - Windows XP - No Issue with SmugMug Uploads

Your web browser is: Firefox 16.0

Does your browser support v2 ICC color profiles? ICC v2 profiles are supported
Does your browser support v4 ICC color profiles? ICC v4 profiles are not supported

Additional tests
Monitor color gamut vs. browser handling of untagged elements

How far from sRGB is your display color gamut?

How does your browser interpret untagged images and page elements?

Untagged image vs. sRGB tagged image
Untagged CSS element vs. sRGB tagged image

I'm not sure what I'm supposed to see in the "color gamut" test. I see red/green/blue boxes. They all look the same.

I loaded the page with Chrome, also on my laptop, and all of the colors look the same. I will have to try the page on my desktop computer later tonight.

SteveM · November 5, 2012

xluben wrote: »

Laptop Computer - Windows XP - No Issue with SmugMug Uploads

I'm not sure what I'm supposed to see in the "color gamut" test. I see red/green/blue boxes. They all look the same.

I loaded the page with Chrome, also on my laptop, and all of the colors look the same. I will have to try the page on my desktop computer later tonight.

Is your Desktop using a new monitor, perhaps a wide gamut display? When you can, try viewing the test above on your desktop using both Chrome and Firefox?

xluben · November 5, 2012

No, it is not a new monitor. It is a cheap Acer X223 that I got several years ago. I will run the tests on my desktop computer later tonight.

Thanks,
Ben

xluben · November 6, 2012

I forgot to check on that last night. I will try to remember tonight.

One thing I also remembered is that I swapped out my video car a few months ago. The new one is:

EVGA GeForce GTX 260 Core 216

Could this be the culprit? Are there settings on the video card I should look into?

SteveM · November 6, 2012

xluben wrote: »

I forgot to check on that last night. I will try to remember tonight.

One thing I also remembered is that I swapped out my video car a few months ago. The new one is:

EVGA GeForce GTX 260 Core 216

Could this be the culprit? Are there settings on the video card I should look into?

Hey Ben,

I highly doubt the video card is the culprit, but I'm not prepared to dismiss anything at this point.

I'll keep digging. Let me know what your tests turn up!

All the best,

Steve Mills
BizDev Account Manager
Image Specialist & Pro Concierge

xluben · November 6, 2012

Your web browser is: Chrome 23.0.1271.64

Does your browser support v2 ICC color profiles? ICC v2 profiles are supported
Does your browser support v4 ICC color profiles? ICC v4 profiles are not supported

Additional tests
Monitor color gamut vs. browser handling of untagged elements

How far from sRGB is your display color gamut?

How does your browser interpret untagged images and page elements?

Untagged image vs. sRGB tagged image
Untagged CSS element vs. sRGB tagged image

OK, I finally got to do this on my desktop computer. The results are above. The ICC color profiles results are the same. But the color gamut test looks different! On my desktop I can see two shades of blue in all of the 3 boxes in the color gamut section. I can see these shades of blue in both Chrome and Firefox on my desktop PC. On my laptop the boxes all look solid blue. Could this be related to the issue?

I have also noticed that in the last day my SmugMug will not stay logged in. I have always had problems ever since I started using the benjohnsonphotography.com domain. Usually I have to go through smugmug.com and then to my page (but no login was required). Now I have to go to smugmug.com, then log in, and then go to my page. Do you know what is causing this? Should I make separate thread for this issue? It is new within the last day and affects both my computers.

xluben · November 7, 2012

Any more suggestions for the image contrast issue?

And what about the auto log off? This one is bothering me day to day. I do have the box checked to keep me logged in.

rainforest1155 · November 8, 2012

xluben wrote: »

And what about the auto log off? This one is bothering me day to day. I do have the box checked to keep me logged in.

There's an issue with cookies that we're currently investigating. For the time being, if you're getting logged out, you have to log in again. Sorry for the hassle.

I'll see if Steve has any more suggestions on your contrast issue.

xluben · November 9, 2012

Any more suggestions?

MacMan · November 10, 2012

xluben wrote: »

Any more suggestions?

Hmmm, I'm just a novice but have spent many hours recently trying to make sure my photos look the same in the browsers I have on my iMac - Safari, Chrome and Firefox. I havent uploaded anything here yet so cant say if my suggestions will help but here's what I found;

I'm using Photoshop CS5, I shoot in raw and work in Adobe RGB or ProPhoto RGB (which I tend to favour now because my photos dont clip so much in Camera Raw). I make my adjustments and when I'm happy I use Convert To Profile / sRGB. Next I use Save For Web and check the box to Convert To sRGB, not sure why I should do this as my photo has already been converted to sRGB but doesnt seem to matter.

Now the interesting bit, if I also check the box for Embed Color Profile my photos look identical to the original in Safari and Chrome but Firefox is always noticeably darker. If I dont embed the colour profile, the photo is the same in all three browsers.

My iMac is calibrated using Spyder3 (far better than using the Mac Display calibration system) and running on 10.6.8.

I believe I'm doing everything right in PP, it just seems that embedding a colour profile can cause problems with some browsers and maybe some photo galleries ...

Forgive me if this no help or irrelavent.

Newsy · November 12, 2012

Hi, SteveM asked if I would take a look at this. I see no difference between the two images in the original post viewing with the latest Firefox, Chrome, and IE.

I'm primarily scrutinizing the light reflection on the side doors just under the front door handle. I note that this is less visible in in the Smugmug image in your following examples of Photoshop vs Smugmug. Now, I believe I'm running my Firefox with an option enabled as discussed in the following articles and perhaps that is why there is no difference for me.

http://www.gballard.net/firefox/

http://www.gballard.net/firefox/#bugs

.

xluben · November 19, 2012

I'm still seeing the difference on my PC. Any resolution for this?

xluben · November 26, 2012

Still hoping for input on this?

EntropicTendencies · November 30, 2012

MacMan wrote: »

I'm using Photoshop CS5, I shoot in raw and work in Adobe RGB or ProPhoto RGB (which I tend to favour now because my photos dont clip so much in Camera Raw). I make my adjustments and when I'm happy I use Convert To Profile / sRGB. Next I use Save For Web and check the box to Convert To sRGB, not sure why I should do this as my photo has already been converted to sRGB but doesnt seem to matter.

If you're setting it to sRGB when you use Save For Web then you don't need to covert the profile of your document (throwing away all that data you were careful to bring in from ACR).

SteveM · November 30, 2012

Hey Ben,

Did you get a chance to try the links Newsy posted above? This is certainly some disconnect between the monitor/browser/video card. The browser tweaks may help.

All the best,

xluben · November 30, 2012

I am using Chrome on my home computer (that has the issue). Those links appear to be in reference to FireFox.

Newsy · December 3, 2012

xluben wrote: »

I am using Chrome on my home computer (that has the issue). Those links appear to be in reference to FireFox.

Please install or update Firefox and take a look. Shouldn't take you longer than 5 minutes to do this and it will eliminate some of the usual suspects.

Images Uploaded to SmugMug Appear Too Dark

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