One more, and a hero shot

TonyCooperTonyCooper Registered Users Posts: 2,276 Major grins
edited July 31, 2013 in Sports
One more, and I'll go back to the Documentary forum where
I belong. I'm outclassed here in Sports, and well aware of it.

This is the grandson that didn't have his eye on the ball.

I wish I would have caught more of the baserunner in the
frame. 1/250th f/8, and a lower f/stop would have been
better to blur the background.

Out%20At%20First-XL.jpg
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
http://tonycooper.smugmug.com/

Comments

  • perronefordperroneford Registered Users Posts: 550 Major grins
    edited July 26, 2013
    It's a great shot.

    But somebody needs to tell that kid to get his foot off the top of the bag, or he's going to get his ankle broken...
    TonyCooper wrote: »
    One more, and I'll go back to the Documentary forum where
    I belong. I'm outclassed here in Sports, and well aware of it.

    This is the grandson that didn't have his eye on the ball.

    I wish I would have caught more of the baserunner in the
    frame. 1/250th f/8, and a lower f/stop would have been
    better to blur the background.

    Out%20At%20First-XL.jpg
  • jmphotocraftjmphotocraft Registered Users Posts: 2,987 Major grins
    edited July 29, 2013
    This is a great capture and a beautiful pose, although another one that would have benefitted from a lower shooting position. I think the composition would be stronger if you crop tighter, eliminating the runner. Including the runner would be more critical if he were closer to the bag, IMO.
    -Jack

    An "accurate" reproduction of a scene and a good photograph are often two different things.
  • TonyCooperTonyCooper Registered Users Posts: 2,276 Major grins
    edited July 29, 2013
    Funny story about that. I submitted this image in a camera club competition
    where the mandate was "Sports". The title was "Out at First".

    In our club, we have three judges on competition night, and two of the
    judges are non-members with some chops in photography...like an editor
    of a magazine, someone who teaches photography at a college, or a
    professional photographer. They are not chosen based on the mandate;
    just for their photographic expertise.

    The female judge who commented on this image liked the pose and the
    action capture, but said she didn't understand why the other person was
    included in the frame. Another judge, who evidently does know baseball,
    snorted and said "How can there be a photograph of someone being called
    "Out at First" if there's no one being being put out?"

    I appreciate your input, but wonder if the idea is to capture the person
    or the play. I do wish the runner was closer to the bag, but in the next
    frame the ball was hidden in the glove and the runner was past the bag.
    Sometimes you get lucky with timing, sometimes you don't.
    Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
    http://tonycooper.smugmug.com/
  • jmphotocraftjmphotocraft Registered Users Posts: 2,987 Major grins
    edited July 29, 2013
    Depends on the intended use of the photo. I agree in the context of the title "Out at First", the baserunner is required. As a sportrait of your grandson, I don't think this baserunner adds anything. In fact I think this shot would make an excellent Fathead - a cutout of just your grandson and the ball and nothing else. If you were shooting for a newspaper or SI, you would probably leave the baserunner in the shot in order to tell a better story. Now, if the baserunner were closer to the base and in a good pose (like in mid-air, foot reaching for the base) then it would work for either purpose.
    -Jack

    An "accurate" reproduction of a scene and a good photograph are often two different things.
  • chrisjohnsonchrisjohnson Registered Users Posts: 772 Major grins
    edited July 29, 2013
    Great capture!

    Had you cropped to exclude the runner then the fence would be much less prominent. The expression on the catcher's face is priceless.

    Something like this:

    catcher-S.jpg

    Gottcha!
  • TonyCooperTonyCooper Registered Users Posts: 2,276 Major grins
    edited July 29, 2013
    Thanks, Chris, but in season series I'm less interested in the "sportraits"
    with the player isolated than I am in capturing the play itself. The
    traditional youth baseball photos seem static to me. To me, they
    are for parents who want one shot to frame of their kid as a baseball player.

    However, I sometimes do isolate on one grandson, not in play,
    like this one on a muddy day behind the plate.

    2013-05-03-05-XL.jpg
    Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
    http://tonycooper.smugmug.com/
  • jmphotocraftjmphotocraft Registered Users Posts: 2,987 Major grins
    edited July 30, 2013
    TonyCooper wrote: »
    Thanks, Chris, but in season series I'm less interested in the "sportraits"
    with the player isolated than I am in capturing the play itself.

    That's great, that's the photojournalism side of the game. It's more challenging because exciting moments involving two opposing players are so rare in youth baseball... or even one player!

    5D3_0505-XL.jpg

    And like you say it is way too tempting to look up from the camera and watch the play!
    The traditional youth baseball photos seem static to me. To me, they
    are for parents who want one shot to frame of their kid as a baseball player.

    Well, they sell, and the kids love them too. I think it's important to have a mix of both types of shots.

    5D3_6165-X2.jpg

    The traditional posed portraits are big sellers too. They put time in a bottle.

    5D3_0740-X2.jpg
    -Jack

    An "accurate" reproduction of a scene and a good photograph are often two different things.
  • TonyCooperTonyCooper Registered Users Posts: 2,276 Major grins
    edited July 30, 2013
    Jack, you are right on all counts in your last post. And, I do have those traditional
    shots in the series (like the last one above), and a few of each at bat. I have enough
    at-bat shots that I don't keep the ones where the ball is not in the image.

    The difference is that I'm shooting a series over a season, including post-season
    All-Stars games, and you're shooting just a few shots of every player for those
    player's parents if they choose to buy them. I don't sell images.

    Your shots are beautifully crisp and with nicely blurred backgrounds.

    Do you shoot on-field, or from behind the fence like I do?

    I'm looking forward to the start of Pop Warner football where I'll
    be allowed on-field. The coach is a neighbor, and he's getting
    me a field pass in exchange for a season series including all
    players that I'll provide on disk at the end of the season.
    On-field, I can even shoot low as you suggest.
    Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
    http://tonycooper.smugmug.com/
  • chrisjohnsonchrisjohnson Registered Users Posts: 772 Major grins
    edited July 30, 2013
    Jack has some fantastic photos here. Sports shooting is difficult, especially because so much happens in the background to distract from the subject. To my eyes what Jack is doing is technically brilliant.

    I am always glad when Dgrinners comment on my photos because I know I have a huge amount to learn.

    mud%20girl%20%281%29-M.jpg

    Tighter crop?
  • jmphotocraftjmphotocraft Registered Users Posts: 2,987 Major grins
    edited July 30, 2013
    TonyCooper wrote: »
    Jack, you are right on all counts in your last post. And, I do have those traditional
    shots in the series (like the last one above), and a few of each at bat. I have enough
    at-bat shots that I don't keep the ones where the ball is not in the image.

    The difference is that I'm shooting a series over a season, including post-season
    All-Stars games, and you're shooting just a few shots of every player for those
    player's parents if they choose to buy them. I don't sell images.

    That is a big difference. I can't shoot enough to get the ball in the picture of every kid batting. Even when I had 8fps it was still rare. I wouldn't toss those other pics though - the wind-up and even the batter just standing there ready can be nice sportraits with good faces.

    5D3_4251-X2.jpg

    When the ball is in the frame the batter is usually looking down towards it and it can be tough to get the eyes.

    5D3_4252-X2.jpg
    I got lucky there.

    I also really love shooting the follow-through from the opposite side. I think it's a pleasing pose and you can get some good faces that way too.

    5D3_4240-X2.jpg
    5D3_4241-X2.jpg
    Your shots are beautifully crisp and with nicely blurred backgrounds.

    Thanks. 300/2.8 on FF will do that. thumb.gif
    Do you shoot on-field, or from behind the fence like I do?

    On field. I'll only go behind the fence to get a shot of the pitcher head-on.
    5D3_5443-X2.jpg

    I would think if you just asked nicely you'd be able to go on-field too. In foul territory of course. Like 10 feet off to the sides of first and third are great spots and not intrusive. Of course, as soon as 2 more parents ask to do this, they'll shut it down.
    I'm looking forward to the start of Pop Warner football where I'll
    be allowed on-field. The coach is a neighbor, and he's getting
    me a field pass in exchange for a season series including all
    players that I'll provide on disk at the end of the season.
    On-field, I can even shoot low as you suggest.

    Good luck, I've never shot football.
    -Jack

    An "accurate" reproduction of a scene and a good photograph are often two different things.
  • TonyCooperTonyCooper Registered Users Posts: 2,276 Major grins
    edited July 30, 2013
    Thanks. 300/2.8 on FF will do that.

    All I have is a 55/200 Nikon kit lens and a Tamron 18/300 that doesn't produce good
    shots at fully zoomed. While I do shoot sports for family purposes, most of what I
    do I shoot with a short lens, especially when shooting "Street" or documentary.
    I would think if you just asked nicely you'd be able to go on-field too. In foul territory of course. Like 10 feet off to the sides of first and third are great spots and not intrusive. Of course, as soon as 2 more parents ask to do this, they'll shut it down.

    Two or more must have asked a few years ago. It's a park rule that no photographers
    (even pros) are allowed on the field or in the dugout. At one game, a visiting parent
    stood in the dugout opening with a camera, and the umpire stopped the game until
    he moved. I never asked at an away game because I'm used to the rules at our
    field.

    At the All-Star play-offs (at a different field) a pro was on the field but he paid for
    the privilege with the sponsors by renting a booth where he sold the images.
    They printed on-site.
    Good luck, I've never shot football.

    Football is tough because sideline shots only get the runner or an intended
    receiver. Anything else is a mass of bodies. I usually stand behind the goal line
    and wait until the play is near the goal. I'll shoot low this year.
    Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
    http://tonycooper.smugmug.com/
  • jmphotocraftjmphotocraft Registered Users Posts: 2,987 Major grins
    edited July 30, 2013
    TonyCooper wrote: »
    All I have is a 55/200 Nikon kit lens and a Tamron 18/300 that doesn't produce good
    shots at fully zoomed. While I do shoot sports for family purposes, most of what I
    do I shoot with a short lens, especially when shooting "Street" or documentary.

    Well for your sports it sounds like a better telephoto lens would be a worthwhile investment.
    Two or more must have asked a few years ago. It's a park rule that no photographers
    (even pros) are allowed on the field or in the dugout. At one game, a visiting parent
    stood in the dugout opening with a camera, and the umpire stopped the game until
    he moved. I never asked at an away game because I'm used to the rules at our
    field.

    That's just sad. And pointless.
    -Jack

    An "accurate" reproduction of a scene and a good photograph are often two different things.
  • jmphotocraftjmphotocraft Registered Users Posts: 2,987 Major grins
    edited July 30, 2013
    Jack has some fantastic photos here. Sports shooting is difficult, especially because so much happens in the background to distract from the subject. To my eyes what Jack is doing is technically brilliant.

    Thanks Chris. I try.
    -Jack

    An "accurate" reproduction of a scene and a good photograph are often two different things.
  • johngjohng Registered Users Posts: 1,658 Major grins
    edited July 30, 2013
    TonyCooper wrote: »

    That's just sad. And pointless.
    With regards to restrictions - it's not pointless, it's about liability. A father is in the dugout and gets hit by a line drive. He sues the city (or whoever) who must spend tens of thousands of dollars defending themselves. It is simply not worth it.

    The officiating crews for HS games around me started enforcing similar restrictions - only press were allowed to shoot. It's just easier having a blanket rule rather than coming up with liability waivers and each photog demonstrating they are bonded or insured (in case a player is injured in a collision with them or their equipment - in which case the school or organization is STILL named in the lawsuit since they have money).

    It's unfortunate that organizations have to do that to protect themselves from litigation. But in their place I would do the same thing.
  • jmphotocraftjmphotocraft Registered Users Posts: 2,987 Major grins
    edited July 30, 2013
    By that logic, nobody should be allowed to spectate a game either, as there is an equal or greater risk of being hit by a foul ball.
    -Jack

    An "accurate" reproduction of a scene and a good photograph are often two different things.
  • IcebearIcebear Registered Users Posts: 4,015 Major grins
    edited July 31, 2013
    By that logic, nobody should be allowed to spectate a game either

    Don't think some insurance company lawyer hasn't suggested it, 'cause for sure some personal injury lawyer has filed suit for just what you postulate.
    John :
    Natural selection is responsible for every living thing that exists.
    D3s, D500, D5300, and way more glass than the wife knows about.
  • johngjohng Registered Users Posts: 1,658 Major grins
    edited July 31, 2013
    Jack - you've spent time at diamonds - your statement is a bit unrealistic. They have these big metal thingies - called FENCES especially when you get to the full sized diamonds. You're not getting hit with a line drive in the bleachers there. And, a player inside the field of play cannot collide with a person outside the fence on the bleachers. A foul ball going over the fence is nothing like one screaming into the dugout. If you can't see the difference in that logic I can't help you. People with cameras aren't special. There's really no good reason to introduce the risk anymore just so someone can take better pictures in most cases. As I said, in my area the restriction was not for credentialed press - whose coverage does benefit the schools.
  • jmphotocraftjmphotocraft Registered Users Posts: 2,987 Major grins
    edited July 31, 2013
    John, you're speaking as though you've been to our fields, but you have not. We have backstops and higher fences that extend only as far as the dugouts. The dugouts have fences in front of them so the players can't get hit. The dugouts are about half the length of the baseline, and the end of the dugout is even with first and third base. Beyond the dugouts there is only a chest-high fence around the rest of the field. The bleachers are behind that fence on the outfield side of the dugouts (i.e., looking at the home dugout, to the left of it). People also bring their own chairs or stand and spectate from behind the higher fence, in the area on the home-plate side of the dugout (i.e., looking at the home dugout, to the right of it). People in both places have to be very aware of foul balls, and there are several calls of "heads up!!" during a game. Moms chit chat at their own peril. People in the bleachers behind the low fence have had to dodge line drive fouls. People behind the high fence still commonly have to dodge pop fouls that go over. And you'll remember from high school Physics that a pop foul ball comes back to earth traveling just as fast as when it left the bat.
    -Jack

    An "accurate" reproduction of a scene and a good photograph are often two different things.
  • johngjohng Registered Users Posts: 1,658 Major grins
    edited July 31, 2013
    Allright Jack, let's address some of the issues you bring up.
    First - HS physics. Let's say a photographer is 65 feet from home plate - just outside the dugout. The ball travels in a strait line. How long does it take to get to the photographer? Now, we have a foul ball going over the fence where people are another 30-40 feet away. 2 factors - more distance and a higher arc on the ball. Think back to YOUR days in school Jack, is the time until impact the same? no.

    Now, on to your other point - your dugouts have fences. Great. A number here do to as well. That usually means anyone shooting photos isn't in the dugout - they're likely on the grass/dirt -if they're good little sports shooters they're either short of the bag or past it . In either case they are a potential hazard to a player making a play in foul territory. Now, OHSAA (governing body in Ohio for H.S. athletics) states that for a photographer to be there, there must be a designated shooting spot marked off. That's great but still doesn't stop a fielder from colliding with the photographer. See, that chest-high fence your fields have, just like many fields prevent players from colliding with people on the other side of that fence. And they protect from a lot of low line drives.
    No doubt about it there is risk to a bystander talking on their phone. But there is a lot more risk to players throwing a non-essential person onto the field and there is increased risk to THAT person by throwing them on the field closer to the area of play and without any barrier. And, often with a camera glued to their face hindering their ability to see everything going on.
    Again, you don't have to agree. I'm simply offering people here a view alternative to yours that is also based on my own experience as a sports photographer. And while I don't like it as a photographer, I do understand it. It's about risk mitigation. Unlike higher fences there is little to no financial expense to such a restriction and the restriction, unlike higher fencing to protect viewers does not impede their view - in fact it removes what could be an impediment to the view. From an organizational point of view it's win-win - they do something that marginally affects safety, do something that is easy to do and can claim is for safety and they remove potential liability. I'd do it to. Especially after seeing how a number of people with cameras behave.

    As a sports photographer, I've shot baseball, football, soccer, football, lacrosse, basketball, gymnastics, volleyball, track, martial arts, mixed martial arts. Of all of them, baseball is the most dangerous. It's not surprising it is often the most restricted with regards to where you can shoot from.
  • johngjohng Registered Users Posts: 1,658 Major grins
    edited July 31, 2013
    oh, and back to basic physics: first, the assumption that velocity is the same at the end of a baseball's path is inaccurate. On one hand it isn't in a vaccum - there is air resistance. Secondly, initial velocity of a pop foul and a line drive are quite different. A line drive from a MLB player can travel about 100mph. If you catch a foul ball hit into the stands it ain't coming down at 100mp. The reason being - it didn't come off the bat at 100mph like the line drive did. Or, does physics work differently in your ballparks than mine too :)
  • jmphotocraftjmphotocraft Registered Users Posts: 2,987 Major grins
    edited July 31, 2013
    Whatever man! Point is, there is a significant risk for spectators to be hit and injured by foul balls at little league baseball fields, period. It's not consistent to worry about litigation from someone inside the fence and not outside. I'm not suggesting it should be a free-for-all. I'm just saying ask nicely and maybe they'll let you. If that starts a trend, then it will surely get shut down.
    -Jack

    An "accurate" reproduction of a scene and a good photograph are often two different things.
  • TonyCooperTonyCooper Registered Users Posts: 2,276 Major grins
    edited July 31, 2013
    It seems all baseball fields are not the same. The "home" field where my
    grandsons play has 6' high chain link fence all around the field. There's
    about a 10' space between the backstop fence (covered with a mesh
    material) and the concrete block dugout.

    That's where I position myself up on my upended milkcrate. I have a
    good position there to shoot the batter and all three bases. Jack has
    rightly pointed out that my shots would improved if I shot low instead
    of over the fence.

    However, shooting through the diamond openings is difficult because
    my lens is bigger than the openings and my mobility is hampered by
    the parents and scorer who sit in lawnchairs in that area. I can't
    swing that lens and find an opening in the fence in following the
    action. I look for action shots, not sportraits, so I compromise.

    No photographers are ever permitted on the field or in the dugout.
    Liability is probably an issue, but control is an issue also. The umpire
    isn't an employee of the park district, so he can't speak for the
    park district. There's a Park Ranger, but there are usually six
    games going on at a time on the different fields.

    Other fields we've been to for "away" games are sometimes
    different, but the layout described above is common.

    My attitude is that this is a game for the kids and I'm there
    as a guest. If the park has rules, I go along with them whether
    or not I think they're sensible.

    I umpired one season when my son played baseball. It made me
    humble. I'm not going to be the parent or grandparent who
    complains about something I want to do that's outside the game's
    purpose.
    Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
    http://tonycooper.smugmug.com/
  • johngjohng Registered Users Posts: 1,658 Major grins
    edited July 31, 2013
    Tony - you have the right attitude. The game is about the kids, not photographers or parents. There was an umpire one game that threw a parent out of the park - it was great. The guy made a loud comment and umpire gave a warning. Next comment an inning later and the umpire told the coach if that parent was still in the area in 2 minutes they forfeit. Too bad more umpires don't feel as empowered. I'm sometimes embarrassed by behavior of parents at games and I don't even know them.
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