Descriptions coming for galleries/folders on Folder pages!

ChancyRat · December 10, 2015

Yay Aaron, thank you so much! Great NEWS. :lust :clap :lust

http://feedback.smugmug.com/forums/17723-smugmug/suggestions/5274525-bring-back-gallery-and-folder-descriptions-on-fold

Any idea on timing?

leftquark · December 13, 2015

ChancyRat wrote: »

Any idea on timing?

They'll be added as part of some under the hood updates so we'll have to ask for your patience, but I did want to be open and let you know that it's something we're going to add in the future.

Allen · December 13, 2015

Exactly where would these descriptions go? I have folder and gallery names on mine.

ChancyRat · December 13, 2015

Allen wrote: »

Exactly where would these descriptions go? I have folder and gallery names on mine.

Now's the time to share our needs, Allen. Aaron, can SM involve us early?

I've had a speculation for a long time now that the gallery settings area is part of the Legacy back end that SM is clear will go away eventually. What's in Gallery Settings? Gallery description, for one, and site owners report often that having to put the description in that odd spot (as compared to captions, or HTML or text blocks), is awkward or odd.

- If gallery description is going to remain in gallery settings as it currently is structured, can there be

1. on-off buttons to show them in folders, with choices to
2. position above, below, left or right of gallery image
3. font size and emphasis choices
4. choice of number of lines to show, i.e, 1,2,3, 5, 10, 20, 30
5. alignment left, right center
6. #pixels separating image from text

- Or, will gallery description move to become a content block? That would be much more consistent with how HTML or text blocks work. Settings ditto.

- On a page that has a mixture of Folder and Gallery thumbnails, in different combinations, what would it mean to position descriptions - they would have to be all the same? Would that break something if you've set settings for some folders one way but other galleries another way.

- Or, reinvent the concept - This is for a unique descriptions, not the now-current gallery description. That way your gallery description can be 5 paragraphs, and your gallery-thumb description is a different set of 2 sentences. This "gallery-thumb-description" or "folder-thumb-description" is a content block that you can drag in and place? Or you turn this on and off in settings?

- Other?

Back when Nicholas Sherlock invented his Chrome tool for batch/bulk editing captions, titles, and keywords for photos, he asked us what did we need it to do. Those familiar with the Legacy tool gave him great input on how the tool should work, and things we needed. One, for example, was to show the file name such that it could show a large number of characters.

Now that we know SM is headed to getting this all-critical function working, please, Aaron, ask us "how should it work", "what do you need this to do", "how would you set it up on a folder".

leftquark · December 16, 2015

You'll definitely see us getting feedback from you all more often in the future, as you said, your feedback during development makes for a better product. How you want to use things and what you need it to do are the more pressing questions. How it should work is best left to our team of designers and UI/UX experts.

Folder/Gallery descriptions will work similarly to captions, they'll be displayed underneath the name of the folder/gallery. Keep in mind that options to do every little thing ends up with an extremely complex product that is hard to use and even harder to maintain. We'll add options for things that make sense. The ability to turn on/off descriptions/captions seems fair. Positioning of them will follow the current options: bottom bar, under, covering, or off. Font sizes and pixel spacing will most likely be defined by SmugMug but can be changed via CSS for those of you that want advanced customization. Most likely we won't allow a gazillion lines of text (10, 20, 30) but there may be some styles like "Under" that would allow for more lines of text. Bottom Bar would be limited to 2 lines, just like captions are in Collage Landscape style. Text alignment (left/center/right) was released the other week and would apply to this as well.

ChancyRat · December 16, 2015

Most likely we won't allow a gazillion lines of text (10, 20, 30) but there may be some styles like "Under" that would allow for more lines of text. Bottom Bar would be limited to 2 lines, just like captions are in Collage Landscape style.

Great, Aaron, thanks so much for your comments and for starting a dialogue. I've pulled out this bit to move deeper:

A. 10-20-30 are not a gazillion by any stretch. Especially when one tends to default to a 20px font size. If I'm limited to 3, for example, my reaction is, "this is not a description, it's just a dangling phrase", and "I can't tell my visitors anything significant with this, so that defeats the purpose of a description".

B. Following this, if SM is going to set up a number of lines, go for broke - More Is Better. You give owners a wider range of customization options, creativity around the use of them is magnified. Keep the number low, and you'll get complaints "we want more". Just - start - with - more, doing so is win-win.

C. Your narrative is a little confusing... I assume turning on titles, and turning on descriptions, are separate options for on-off. Both can be on at the same time, I assume. Can't throw out titles just to add descriptions.

D. Just to encourage visualization,

these would look awesome:
1. titles above, descriptions below.
2. titles above, descriptions to the right
3. titles on bottom bar, descriptions below

photoclick · December 16, 2015

A. Why can't you use the TEXT (or html) widget to write as many lines as you wish????

ChancyRat · December 16, 2015

photoclick wrote: »

A. Why can't you use the TEXT (or html) widget to write as many lines as you wish????

When you drag a Folder block, or Gallery block, onto a page, they auto-populate the thumbnail images. Then you don't have an option to add text (as a description, located under or next to them) to any of them. The only option currently is to populate gallery or folder titles. In Legacy, Javascript would allow us to add a description. New Smug, not.

Your method would work if one dragged in ONE menu block and added ONE gallery (or folder). That would allow you to position a text block adjacent to it. Then you'd have to add in another menu block and repeat for each. Plus the added pain of re-doing your customization if you were to add new galleries or folders, or re-organize any of it.

BigRed · December 16, 2015

ChancyRat wrote: »

[SNIP]
- Or, reinvent the concept - This is for a unique descriptions, not the now-current gallery description. That way your gallery description can be 5 paragraphs, and your gallery-thumb description is a different set of 2 sentences.

leftquark wrote: »

Folder/Gallery descriptions will work similarly to captions, they'll be displayed underneath the name of the folder/gallery. Keep in mind that options to do every little thing ends up with an extremely complex product that is hard to use and even harder to maintain. We'll add options for things that make sense. The ability to turn on/off descriptions/captions seems fair. Positioning of them will follow the current options: bottom bar, under, covering, or off. Font sizes and pixel spacing will most likely be defined by SmugMug but can be changed via CSS for those of you that want advanced customization. Most likely we won't allow a gazillion lines of text (10, 20, 30) but there may be some styles like "Under" that would allow for more lines of text. Bottom Bar would be limited to 2 lines, just like captions are in Collage Landscape style. Text alignment (left/center/right) was released the other week and would apply to this as well.

This exchange highlights an all-too-familiar design challenge: trying to achieve two separate purposes with a single piece of data.

First is the need to (optionally) display additional descriptive information on the navigational folder pages, adjacent to each component gallery and sub-folder feature thumbnail. (By using the Gallery Description, this was available in Legacy for galleries, and via javascript for categories.) With a few words acting as "sub-titles" to the Folder/Gallery Titles, we could more efficiently direct our visitors to the desired sub-folders & galleries. It's reasonable that text length and formatting would be limited to keep those navigational pages looking clean.

BUT using the Gallery Description would place new limits on how we currently use that data -- e.g., to convey free-form messaging/informational content that is displayed under the breadcrumb at the top of the gallery, and which is easily formatted with HTML. Ouch.

So I like the idea of a NEW "subtitle" settings field for each gallery and folder. This would serve a single and straightforward purpose: to (optionally) appear with its thumb on navigational folder pages.

A related idea is to make Folder Descriptions work just like Gallery Descriptions already do -- i.e., Whatever is entered as "Meta Description" in Folder Settings would be displayed under the breadcrumb at the top of that folder's page (the page that displays thumbs representing each of its next-level-down component galleries and/or sub-folders). It could be used flexibly to convey free-form content in any format. And, as a complement to #1 above (and/or short-term alternative), it could be useful in navigation to confirm after-the-fact that the appropriate gallery/folder was selected on the previous folder page.

leftquark · December 16, 2015

There's a lot of really great discussion here. BigRed, you make my Product Manager heart sing when I read your comment: it's well thought out and hits at the root of the struggle here.

ChancyRat brought up a good point, if the descriptions are limited to a certain # of characters (or rows), it's possible that the information in the description will never be displayed. The descriptions are not meant to be long, in fact we probably should have put some character limit (like 300 characters or less) in, but since we haven't, people have been taking advantage of long descriptions for a while. It'd be hard to get rid of that at this point. It's my belief that these descriptions are meant to be brief, slightly more detailed explanations about the context of the folder or gallery. They're not meant to be long winded instructions, especially as part of your Folder hierarchy that your visitors are using to navigate throughout your site. Your visitors need to be able to quickly find the galleries of photos and shouldn't be blocked by huge amounts of text. However, I do concur with BigRed, that if additional text is given, it should be shown somewhere. Displaying it on the Folder, like we do with galleries, below the breadcrumb and above the thumbnails (Tiles), seems logical.

I've been thinking, lately, that a character cap on both Folder (meta) description and Gallery Description would start to make sense. But I'm also nervous about that since many of you have taken advantage of no cap. My inclination is to leave it uncapped and do our best at displaying it beautifully, with the caveat that if you're going to use long descriptions, some of the usability of it may get lost in our desire to ensure your photos look their best.

We want SmugMug to be the place where your photos look their best and that means that we can't forget about the design of your folders and galleries when we talk about adding functionality. How these look is extremely important and there will be a fine balance between beautiful design and useful functionality. Swing too far either way and we miss the mark. My current philosophy is more on the easy to use/better looking but to still give you advanced users the ability to extend it further.

ChancyRat, in terms of your other thoughts:
- Folder/Gallery Titles should never be turned off. But I can see a case where Descriptions/captions might want to be turned off and just the name left. If you really wanted to hide the titles, you'd have to turn to CSS for that.
- There's so many new things we want to build for you and changing where the Titles/Descriptions go, when there's already 4 options, is going to be lower on the priority list than the completely new features we want to build for you. It's something I'd love to work on in the future but for now we'll keep to the display styles we have now (Off, under, bottom bar and covering).
- Certain display styles are more condusive to long descriptions than others. I could see "Under", or Collage Portrait allowing you to display additional lines of text, however, the Bottom Bar and Collage Landscape styles should always be limited to something smaller. We always want your photos to shine and look their best and we never want to cover them up with lots of text. For example, I mocked up an example here, to show you how things could look.

Top: Current release
Middle: 2 lines of description showing
Bottom: long description fill the photo tiles.

The bottom one just is too overwhelming. I'll caveat this by saying these are just mockups that I made for this discussion and are not from our Design team. They were just a part of my own exercise to see the feasibility.
Folder%20Descriptions%20Mock.png

In this example I've used 'Small' for the folder thumbnails and using something like Medium or Large would allow for even more text. Even with Small sizes, I have enough text to say things like "Photos of Jack and Jill's Wedding", "Photos of pretty things that I like to take in nature", etc. This is an extreme example, but it does go to show why we make some of the decisions we make.

As always, I'm open to discussing this further ...

ChancyRat · December 16, 2015

The descriptions are not meant to be long, in fact we probably should have put some character limit (like 300 characters or less) in, but since we haven't, people have been taking advantage of long descriptions for a while. It'd be hard to get rid of that at this point.

Aaron I'm going to pull out bits. Starting with THANK YOU FOR THIS DIALOGUE.

Now, on this quote -

oh my dear you are so wrong.

No one ever said descriptions were/are supposed to be short. In fact there was ONLY ever the description field for all narrative, so everything and anything and as much as anyone wanted, had to go there. This was the de facto implication. In fact I remember checking at one point and confirmed with SM that there was almost no limit to the size one could add. I might be able to find that thread on DG.

Now that you have HTML and Text blocks, one could move the description there, but in the transition if someone's descriptions transferred over well, there would be no need to make changes.

Allen · December 16, 2015

Is it possible to add a span class name (Smug defined name) around a top or any part of description defining what part of description is shown on folder image.

<span class="Smug defined">This is what appears on folder image</span> Then is the rest of description text.

The length of span text could be adjusted to fit how ever lines are on folder image.

A Smug defined class name would have to be used so they could code into the site.

Or perhaps just some special text only used for the folder image that does not show in the description. Could be placed in settings.

ChancyRat · December 16, 2015

It's my belief that these descriptions are meant to be brief, slightly more detailed explanations about the context of the folder or gallery.

No, I'm sorry, but a description's purpose is up to the user.

ChancyRat · December 16, 2015

Your visitors need to be able to quickly find the galleries of photos and shouldn't be blocked by huge amounts of text.

How the site owner decides to channel visitors is up to the site owner. One person's block is another person's spotlight. If I think 5 lines of text blocks access, I won't post 5 lines.
If I think 10 lines of text facilitates access, I will post 10 lines.

Customization is what this describes.

ChancyRat · December 16, 2015

I think we're all in agreement that your example of overlaying a lot of text ON the thumbnail of COURSE will fail. So in that case, the user doesn't make that choice. Simple. On the other hand....

ChancyRat · December 16, 2015

Aaron, I've been puzzling over your long post with all the complex ideas and themes. I think there's something I'm missing - this new functionality, please confirm, it would be something a site owner turns on or off in gallery or folder settings, correct?

What just occurred to me, and is worrisome, is if the plan is to put it under the settings for "all galleries" or "all folders" in the right side flyout area. Worrisome because a site may have several or many organizational layouts and/or designs, where titles and descriptions must then adapt. Maybe my worry isn't necessary and I'm just not understanding some of the basics.

leftquark · December 17, 2015

Allen wrote: »

Is it possible to add a span class name (Smug defined name) around a top or any part of description defining what part of description is shown on folder image.

<span class="Smug defined">This is what appears on folder image</span> Then is the rest of description text.

The length of span text could be adjusted to fit how ever lines are on folder image.

This is something that could be done but most likely wouldn't be done due to poor user experience. If you'd like me to go into the specific details, I can, however, all the scenarios to do this end with either extremely slow page loads or a poor experience and not what you'd want.

Allen wrote: »

Or perhaps just some special text only used for the folder image that does not show in the description. Could be placed in settings.

Having some "short field" that gets put with the Folder title, and a longer "Description" is certainly something that could work, however, too many options that do basically the same thing probably gets confusing for our users.

ChancyRat wrote: »

No, I'm sorry, but a description's purpose is up to the user.

I completely agree with that, however, it also must fit within certain bounds. It's extremely hard to innovate and make SmugMug better when an infinite number of things can be done. In order to improve, sometimes we have to place limitations on the extent to which you can push your site. SmugMug is about beautiful photo websites and we may have to place some restrictions on certain things to ensure your sites remain beautiful.

ChancyRat wrote: »

this new functionality, please confirm, it would be something a site owner turns on or off in gallery or folder settings, correct?

What just occurred to me, and is worrisome, is if the plan is to put it under the settings for "all galleries" or "all folders" in the right side flyout area. Worrisome because a site may have several or many organizational layouts and/or designs, where titles and descriptions must then adapt. Maybe my worry isn't necessary and I'm just not understanding some of the basics.

Choosing what information is displayed is part of Customization and would live under the Customizer, just like all of your current Folder/Gallery Display options. It would not be in Folder or Gallery settings. Like you can do today, Folders can be "Just this Folder" if one (or more) need to be different from the "All Folders".

The simplest way of thinking about this is to look at a Gallery in "Collage Landscape" style where it shows the photos caption. We'd essentially be adding that to Folders and Galleries.

photoclick · December 17, 2015

Aaron,
Seems like what you are after is a "... beautiful photo websites". You already have it and it is beautiful

What Rat wants is a blogging platform. And let's be honest - you do not have it. Perhaps it makes more sense to introduce a new element (widget, block, layout.. call it whatever you want) that will serve this purpose instead of trying to tweak an existing element into something it was not meant to be? Red is right - you are trying to fit one elements to fit separate purposes

Perhaps quick and intermediate (until blogging is truly supported) solution can be to simply add a user selectable limiter to how many lines are displayed under the tile? or maximum height of description block, in pixels, under the tile? Default it to just a few lines and let the user change it the way they want.

ChancyRat · December 17, 2015

photoclick wrote: »

Aaron,
Seems like what you are after is a "... beautiful photo websites". You already have it and it is beautiful What Rat wants is a blogging platform. And let's be honest - you do not have it. Perhaps it makes more sense to introduce a new element (widget, block, layout.. call it whatever you want) that will serve this purpose instead of trying to tweak an existing element into something it was not meant to be? Red is right - you are trying to fit one elements to fit separate purposes

....

Click, Rat here - I promise, I do not want a blog capability, and my questions and thoughts about descriptions for gallery and folder thumbs are unrelated to blog issues. Some others might want that and have contributions to make for that. My starting point is, what constitutes a description is up to the creator, and should be accommodated. If length is restricted - too tight - you immediately exclude people. Why do this?

A site owner is like the wild ox. This ox has energy and innate activities and behaviors normal to a wild beast. He needs to kick and run and jump. Wild and scraggly and kind of all over the place. If you put this ox in a tight stall, you are likely going to get planks kicked in, because "tight" is not going to help tame this wild creature - in fact, you will anger the ox and put him under stress. He might explode! On the other hand if you put the ox into a large corral, where he can roam and stretch and get exercise, you still have him penned or captured, but the energy level drops considerably. You have a much happier ox despite his living no longer in the wild. (Apologies to Buddhism if I didn't do this justice.)

My thinking is always about, how big does the corral have to be.

ChancyRat · December 17, 2015

ChancyRat, in terms of your other thoughts:
- Folder/Gallery Titles should never be turned off. But I can see a case where Descriptions/captions might want to be turned off and just the name left. If you really wanted to hide the titles, you'd have to turn to CSS for that.

Aaron, we can already turn off titles, that is one of the options?

I'm trying to wrap my my around what would be needed (I had gotten stuck on these new settings being inside the gallery or folder settings). Is "Info Style" going to mean "Both Title and Description"? If not, then some 2nd new field will be added to this block, correct? In order to turn on/off Title, and/or turn on/off Description?

photoclick · December 17, 2015

Ox (a.k.a. "Rat") - I understand your desire. I believe that Smugmug understands it as well. Perfect proof of it - Aaron is openly discussing the design aspects with those who care. Not every company will do that:) I am also all for freedom. It is MY site, MY service that I am paying for and I want to have total and complete control. However, I do remember that this site and this service has a specific purpose and promise to customers - "Stunning Photo Websites For You, Your Family, Or Your Business." This is how it was advertised and this is what I bought it as. Not as anything else. To display photos, to (maybe) sell photos, to store photos. Photos being an operative and primary purpose of this website. I'm not saying it is PERFECT, but it is pretty good compared to other SIMILAR services.

Judging by the photos to text ratio on your website - I honestly believe your primary goal is textual information while photos and video are complimentary (still important) items. And there is nothing wrong with that! Smugmug was just not designed for that exactly. Thanks to the customization ability you or I can still do it if we want to. But honestly, the format of your site is more suited for the Blog type of websites. In my opinion, it is better if Smugmug adds elements / layouts that constitute Blog style in addition to already existing photo-specific elements instead of trying to twek existing elements to fit something that they were not initially intended for.

BigRed · December 17, 2015

photoclick wrote: »

Aaron,
Seems like what you are after is a "... beautiful photo websites". You already have it and it is beautiful What Rat wants is a blogging platform. And let's be honest - you do not have it. Perhaps it makes more sense to introduce a new element (widget, block, layout.. call it whatever you want) that will serve this purpose instead of trying to tweak an existing element into something it was not meant to be? Red is right - you are trying to fit one elements to fit separate purposes
[SNIP]

I don't know if that's exactly the dichotomy, but it's a very good point. In these types of design debates, it seems that "advanced" users are often advocating for special requirements associated with organizing and serving up specialized content (be it information about rats, birds, conservation, whatever) in addition to displaying their (our) photos to best advantage. I haven't yet found a tool that supports that model, blending database management with pro photo album. Blogging tools don't cut it, and as we push to bring Smugmug closer, it's inevitable that we'll bump up against conflicting goals. So... on with the negotiations and compromises -- and thanks to Aaron for being so open and generous with his thinking!

leftquark · December 17, 2015

ChancyRat wrote: »

My starting point is, what constitutes a description is up to the creator, and should be accommodated. If length is restricted - too tight - you immediately exclude people. Why do this?

If you bought the Ox to pull the cart but the Ox spends his day roaming around the field, being the Ox that he wants to be and nothing else, then he's not doing the role you bought him for and you'll be displeased with the Ox and get rid of him. The same thing applies with SmugMug, if we allow you to have non-beautiful photo websites then we're not living up to our value and you'll go somewhere else. Our goal is to let you personalize as much as you possible can, but within the confines that it remains beautiful. Some restrictions are always made in order to maintain our value.

At SmugMug the center of attention is always on your photos. There may be other elements, and other design features that we have that work to enhance your photos but the thing that you and your visitors will focus on will be your photos (and videos). If we allow you to have what we consider "too long" descriptions, the focus goes away from your photos and onto the text. That's not a situation we want to happen on SmugMug, where your photos are supposed to be shining.

Perhaps you can help me out by giving me examples of why you would need long Folder descriptions? I've seen examples of long Gallery descriptions that make some sense to me (for example: giving the visitor instructions on how to browse the page, buy photos, or links to related galleries).

ChancyRat wrote: »

Aaron, we can already turn off titles, that is one of the options?

I'm trying to wrap my my around what would be needed (I had gotten stuck on these new settings being inside the gallery or folder settings). Is "Info Style" going to mean "Both Title and Description"? If not, then some 2nd new field will be added to this block, correct? In order to turn on/off Title, and/or turn on/off Description?

"Info Style" is the style in which your folder/gallery information (and download/buy buttons) is displayed:
- Bottom Bar places a semi-transparent bar w/the info over the bottom of the photo.
- Under places the info under the photo.
- Covering places the info centered vertically over the photo.
- Off removes the info and buttons completely.

By turning it "Off" you're not just turning off the Titles, you're turning off every piece of info, including the download/buy buttons.

None of this is designed yet -- I merely updated UserVoice so that you'd know we're planning on adding descriptions in the future. All of this could change. The way I imagine it, though, is that "Description" (or caption) would be its own setting, which could be toggled independently. However, Title will always be shown unless the entire Info bar is turned off. You can have Title ON (by having Info Bar not-off), and Description ON or OFF, but you could never have Title OFF and Description ON because title is tied to Info Style and because it doesn't make sense to turn the title off while leaving other items on.

Allen · December 17, 2015

I use a square grid folder/gallery box format with medium images. I think this is the minimum size that a description might
look good. I can visualize a description below each image with maybe 1-5 lines at most.
example: http://www.photosbyat.com/Birds/2015-Birding Loads slow because of map box at bottom.
This folder page probably would not need descriptions but down one level where the galleries are might.

Looking at the collage style folder/gallery boxes I see a problem because of the different size/orientated images.
Portraits would have tall descriptions vs landscapes, picture that. More lines allowed the uglier it would look.

Jtring · December 19, 2015

leftquark wrote: »

At SmugMug the center of attention is always on your photos. There may be other elements, and other design features that we have that work to enhance your photos but the thing that you and your visitors will focus on will be your photos (and videos). If we allow you to have what we consider "too long" descriptions, the focus goes away from your photos and onto the text. That's not a situation we want to happen on SmugMug, where your photos are supposed to be shining.

I worry a bit that your (or anybody else’s) assumptions about what puts photos at the center of attention may not match mine. I view gallery captions as providing context for the photos that follow. If that context is insufficient, the photos will have less impact, not more. But how many words is sufficient? It depends. In looking at my own galleries, which I think are pretty image-centric, most come in at 100 words or less, but just this September, I wrote one that weighted in at 281. My descriptions outline the general context for gallery, introduce any special circumstances or special features that will appear in the images, and help with any special site navigation issues. That introduction-heavy gallery had all of these. Some day I may need more. But more than just worrying the numbers, going from no limit to a defined limit strikes me as a new – and since you didn’t seem to need it before – a rather artificial constraint on SmugMug providing maximum impact for my pictures.

Note I’m only talking here about the gallery descriptions on the gallery page. As BigRed noted, you are aiming at having one field support two functions: information on the gallery page and guidance in a navigation content block. In a navigation content block, I’m happy with chopping things off with an ellipsis after a line or two. Isn’t that what the old SM did? I'd be happy enough with a "sub-title" field for the navigation content block too (although I'm not sure I'd use it). But I’d be real unhappy if issues with the navigation function generated side effects limiting the current ability of the gallery page description to serve the context function.

leftquark wrote: »

Perhaps you can help me out by giving me examples of why you would need long Folder descriptions? I've seen examples of long Gallery descriptions that make some sense to me (for example: giving the visitor instructions on how to browse the page, buy photos, or links to related galleries).

I think the handling of folder descriptions should exactly parallel that for gallery descriptions because there are situations where folders serve a logical and organizational function very close to that of a single gallery.

This is best described by example. Most of my site represents various trips, some backpacking, some more conventional travel. If these trips have few enough pictures to fit into one gallery, the context information for the trip – when/where/who/why, plus any special features or issues – naturally sits in gallery description. If these trips have lots of pictures or have natural subdivisions, it makes sense to break them up into multiple galleries. But then where does the when/where/who/why for the whole trip go? The most natural place is at the folder level, in a folder description. Today I’ve either had to insert a special text block – thus separating that folder from the template – or leave the folder “bare” and put the context information in the first (or all) of the galleries. An example of the first approach is here. Not a long description – it’s commensurate with my shorter gallery descriptions – but here it is at the folder level. The cost, again, is that this folder page is now unlinked from the template. An example of the second approach is here. I think this looks rather barren. Worse, if you go up a level from that folder and then back down to one of the galleries it contains, you get context immediately. That inconsistency – sometimes context is one step away, sometimes two – presents a small hit on the usability of my site which I’m living with. Doing so keeps those template links intact while still making use of the freedom the new SM offers with multiple levels of folders. Yet a third case is here, where it was natural that a folder containing nothing but other folders have some special contextual information. Again, nothing long, but by doing what I did, the template connection is lost.

I don't have any examples now of long folder descriptions. However, since folder and gallery descriptions can do very similar things, the potential for a needing a long one is the same in both places. I also would note that one set of rules for descriptions everywhere makes the SmugMug interface easier to use than having different rules in similar places. The capabilities should be the same in both places.

leftquark · December 19, 2015

Exactly the kind of examples I was looking for. Thanks Jim.

I do concur with you that context, and the story can enhance the photo, it's one of the reasons why all of my photos have very long captions explaining what went into the photo. Like everything, there's a balance and when you know the constraints, you can almost always find a solution that works within those bounds. What we want to get to is a balance between function and design. Adding Folder descriptions gives you the function, but we also want it to fit within our design constraints for a beautiful website. Limiting the characters helps your designs stay beautiful, but it also limits functionality. IF there was to be a character limit, it'd be set at something that balanced function with beauty. I say "if", because I don't plan on implementing a character count. I mentioned it for the sake of discussion and its good to get everyones thoughts on this.

My biggest takeaway from this discussion is that in addition to showing Folder descriptions under the title on the photo tiles, you'd also love to see it underneath the breadcrumb, like it is with Gallery Descriptions.

Jtring · December 19, 2015

leftquark wrote: »

My biggest takeaway from this discussion is that in addition to showing Folder descriptions under the title on the photo tiles, you'd also love to see it underneath the breadcrumb, like it is with Gallery Descriptions.

Absolutely. It would be one more step toward making full use of one of the new SmugMug's nicest, if sometimes unsung, improvements: the expanded and more flexible folder depth.

ChancyRat · December 19, 2015

Struggling to follow along with the options. I LOVE the idea of a folder description below the breadcrumb. Then, Would this possible in terms of how the settings would work?

I highlighted in PINK very unpleasant moments of there being not enough space to complete the description. Yes, sometimes this is a draw to click and go deeper, but that should be the site owner's decision.

leftquark · December 19, 2015

ChancyRat wrote: »

Struggling to follow along with the options. I LOVE the idea of a folder description below the breadcrumb. Then, Would this possible in terms of how the settings would work?

I highlighted in PINK very unpleasant moments of there being not enough space to complete the description. Yes, sometimes this is a draw to click and go deeper, but that should be the site owner's decision.

Most likely the Folder/Gallery Description heading area above the photo tiles, "Here I document ... for", there'd be a "Read More" or some other element to allow you to read the full description. For image tiles ("I was at boston ... picked", "Our boats and suppliers ... and") would either just cut off like they do today, or have a "...", and you'd have to open the folder, gallery, or photo to read the full description.

Something like this:

Allen · December 19, 2015

For those that can customize I think folder descriptions are best handled by adding a text/html box above the
widget. There could be multiple boxes/widgets on a folder page and each could need its own description.
There could also be an option for a under breadcrumb description as defined in Folder Settings. This is so
basic accounts also could use a description.

leftquark · January 12, 2016

For those of you curious at what I was hinting at earlier in this thread, I've released a preview of our new Gallery Header / Cover Photo feature that will be coming soon. Feel free to take a look and leave your comments: http://www.dgrin.com/showthread.php?p=2021751

Descriptions coming for galleries/folders on Folder pages!

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