So I Found a STOLEN image

cdonovan · October 17, 2006

:gun2
In a for sale Ad, local small website that has horses for sale i found a photo from a horse show, for a couple of weeks i had taken off the watermark and she must have nabbed it then...i did a screen shot, and expect that I should start by talking to a lawyer, but boy do i ever wanna talk to a man about a horse right now.

Anyone with any experience in this wonderful show of human decency:lynnsite

Here's the link to mine in my gallery
http://cdonovanphotos.smugmug.com/gallery/1781178/1/88669434/Large

Andy · October 17, 2006

Odds are she doesn't even know what she did is wrong. You could ask her to remove the image, and see what she says? Might save some legal costs, eh?

Sorry this happened to you!

cdonovan · October 17, 2006

I am royally miffed about this.. and you think that i should .just let her get away with it...I can't see how that teaches ANYONE any lesson.

Should I send her a bill at least for the photo?

Shay Stephens · October 17, 2006

Well first off, it's not the end of the world, no one got hurt, and as Andy mentioned, the chances that this was an honest mistake are pretty high.

So cool thy jets. Breath, think clearly. The amount of money you could extract from this is insignificant compared to the time and money you would spend suing. Much better would be to just make a phone call, a freindly phone call mind you to ask to have the photo removed or for there to be a payment, or maybe a nice lunch

If you go around acting like everyone is your enemy, you will find them everywhere you look. You will be suing the world and die an unhappy sourpuss.

Smile, talk, work it out in a freindly manner. You will find much more success and cooperation that way.

Too many photographers act as if their photos are holy relics and to dare blaspheme them is punishable by a fate worse than death. Relax, it's just a photo that has commercial value. So if the photo is used without permission, then try to get that value sent to you. If they refuse, weigh the cost of escallating the matter with the potential profit. If there is no potential profit, drop it, 'cause it ain't worth it.

Steve Cavigliano · October 17, 2006

She looks to be about 14. I agree she might not even know she has done anything wrong

Even if she did, it is sort of flattering to think that someone would want to steal one of your images. Not right, but flattering none-the-less.

I wouldn't beat her up. I'd ask her to replace that image with another one I would provide. Same image, with my photo-web address across the bottom

(Photo provided by: www.weshoothorses.com)

Free advertising

Steve

Shay Stephens · October 17, 2006

Steve Cavigliano wrote:

I wouldn't beat her up. I'd ask her to replace that image with another one I would provide. Same image, with my photo-web address across the bottom (Photo provided by: www.weshoothorses.com)

Free advertising

Steve

I like that one Steve! Good idea!

cdonovan · October 18, 2006

Steve Cavigliano wrote:

She looks to be about 14. I agree she might not even know she has done anything wrong Even if she did, it is sort of flattering to think that someone would want to steal one of your images. Not right, but flattering none-the-less.

I wouldn't beat her up. I'd ask her to replace that image with another one I would provide. Same image, with my photo-web address across the bottom (Photo provided by: www.weshoothorses.com)

Free advertising

Steve

Shouldn't i charge her for the picture though....???? I have a release that i send with my pictures if purchased on disk that they are able to use them digitally as long as they have my © on it

cmason · October 18, 2006

cdonovan wrote:

Shouldn't i charge her for the picture though....???? I have a release that i send with my pictures if purchased on disk that they are able to use them digitally as long as they have my © on it

Depends on what you are after. If you want $$ for the pic, then sure, charge her. But do you think she is in a position to pay?

On the otherhand, the publication looks like it is targetted to your customers. Why not offer her a 'way out"? Supply photos for her mag, with your web address, and also perhaps ask for some ad space, all free of course. I would think the business it generates far more than the $ you could get from her.

JimM · October 18, 2006

I had a similar situation happen about a year ago. I shot this guy's truck for a magazine he was going to be published in. Mag paid me to shoot it, but I still owned the images. I posted them in SM to see if the guy wanted to buy any of them. He had mentioned interest during the shoot. He said he wanted some for his website also. Eventually I went down to $100 for a CD of the images he can use however he wants, but the guy still doesn't buy.

A month or so later, I notice my SM traffic through the roof and I get a call on my cell phone. The guy was selling his truck through ebay and told everyone for pics go here and pointed to my SM gallery. I was super ticked. I called him and told him he need to buy the images, as he was not entitled to use my site to promote his sale. I did a little threat: that I would take down the gallery if he didn't paypal me for the CD that night. It worked, I got the money that night. Not sure if he was able to sell the truck. I don't think he thought there was anything wrong with what he did. Technically, I am not sure there really was, but I wasn't about to let him use the images for his sale purposes.

Oh, the reason for the cell call? I list my cell number on my website. I actually received numerous calls from people that had questions about the truck for sale.

Here is a couple of the truck... (this is a photography forum, right???)

cdonovan · October 18, 2006

cmason wrote:

Depends on what you are after. If you want $$ for the pic, then sure, charge her. But do you think she is in a position to pay?

On the otherhand, the publication looks like it is targetted to your customers. Why not offer her a 'way out"? Supply photos for her mag, with your web address, and also perhaps ask for some ad space, all free of course. I would think the business it generates far more than the $ you could get from her.

mmm do you mean financially not in a position to pay...oh yes she definitly is. The owner of the horse is an adult and is the person who would have posted her own ad, with her "own" pictures to her ad, she must have done a screen shot and then a little magical cropping and stuck it right in there. it's a child riding the horse, but the owner is an adult. I thinking asking her to pay for that least this photo of her is only fair, and I am contemplating asking for compensation for the others in the same gallery of the horse, cause if she took one, why wouldn't she take the others as well??? Then I would send the file on a disk with my info clearly splattered on it for her to use for the Ad.

Does that sound fair???

sirsloop · October 18, 2006

How about emailing her a copy with at least your web address at the bottom. Just mention to her that you didn't authorize her use of the photo, and the least she can do is have your name on it. Besides, its hard enough getting those damn horses to stand there with ears forward! HAHA!

Suing isnt the answer, acting tough isnt either. Horse people have a close network and it you yank at one end, the other end hears about it. Remember, everyone knows everyone.

Look at problems like this as an opportunity. Maybe someone will see that photo, love it, and contact you to come shoot photos of their horse!

Just remember, you can't prevent people from stealing the photos. Even with smugmugs super right click block, and a java copy+paste+printsrn blocker, php pages, mouse overs... there is always a way to get that photo. Ensuring that everything is watermarked is your best bet

DJKennedy · October 18, 2006

Steve Cavigliano wrote:

Even if she did, it is sort of flattering to think that someone would want to steal one of your images. Not right, but flattering none-the-less.

I agree it would be flattering that someone would like my images enough to steal them (hasn't happened to me YET that I know of - hint hint).

But I definately would contact her to have her remove the image, or put your name on it as the photographer, or pay you.

cdonovan · October 18, 2006

ok...I see where this is going:cry

So basically what is being said here is that copyright means ZERO, and it's not worth fighting for my right as an artist, and that since she's someone who has stolen my image she can't afford to buy it, and myself as a budding photographer CAN afford all of this equipment not to mention time that it takes to have these images available for sale, and since she dosen't want to pay I may as well just give them away

What about the copyright laws, what about the word infringment, what about the word STOLEN...in my books that's breaking the law...it's a crime....civil or criminal dosen't make a bit of difference in my books, it's wrong. If the owner isn't being protected i think that it's time that we all start standing up for OUR rights, instead of hiding behind it's expensive and not worth the small amount of money you'd get back from it. It' our integrity and our work, and we should be proud enough to stand up for it, and find the criminal responsible for the expense.

The thing is this isn't the first time this has happened to me either, when I started out this season, I found a few other photos of another girl in someone elses hands who had no right to them, confronted the offender and got a message confession and apology from her mother...and 18 year old girl, and her mom has to apologize for her

The part about good publicity with someone seeing my work, and asking me to go do a photoshoot, well I advertise on that site as well, so people know my work, infact the hits that i get daily on my site indicate there are a LOT of people looking at my work & each day i have a new inquiry some new lead some new tidbit, a bit of hope for my future in this business. Then something like this hits me, I take it personally, it hurts, I make soo many sacrifices to do this work, to put up good quality images of as many people as I can, I set myself apart from the competition because I care about the product that my clients take home. I am doing this as a job/hobby aside from being a single mom, and I don't pull that card out for the sympathy vote here, but because it may give you better insight into my workload.

Flattering...nah I don't find it flattering, I find it disgusting and insulting, I find it dirty and ugly.

However, when someone buys my work...that my friends is flattering.

cmason · October 18, 2006

Well, I for one am not suggesting that you compromise or work to make your copyright worthless. Rather, we are simply trying to be practical.

If some one pulls out in front of you in traffic, it is both illegal and dangerous. You have every right to see that they get a ticket and get what their actions deserve. But, we rarely do, as it is impractical and doesnt help much in the end.

I think we are simply advising you to take advantage of this situation, rather than take exception to it. Yes you can go sue and keep this individual from doing it again, but will it keep it from happening again? not really

aktse · October 18, 2006

Do whatever you want. Contact a lawyer, speak with the individaul, etc. If you want to spend the money fighting it, go right ahead. It's your money, time and effort...

You have asked for people's experiences, and peope have given it; it might be different than your point of view, and you might not like it. They gave you their opinions about what they woudl do and you don't have to follow it. There are great people at dgrin, and the ones that have posted have decided that there are other things they want to spend their time and energy on rather than go after her with guns blazing.

This isn't the first time that a photo is used without permission and it won't be the last time as well.

It just really depends on the results that you want. Want her to stop using your image? Do you want money? Credit? Make her an example? Stop the world from doing it?

Personally, I would just contact her, make her aware of copyright on the photo, ask her to remove it or use something different, and go out and shoot some more beautiful horses.

sirsloop · October 18, 2006

Just remember - You catch more flies with honey than with vinegar!!

Shay Stephens · October 18, 2006

On being professional

cdonovan wrote:

ok...I see where this is going:cry

So basically what is being said here is that copyright means ZERO, and it's not worth fighting for my right as an artist, and that since she's someone who has stolen my image she can't afford to buy it, and myself as a budding photographer CAN afford all of this equipment not to mention time that it takes to have these images available for sale, and since she dosen't want to pay I may as well just give them away

I hear from a lot of people who have had bad experiences with photographers. Many of these people speak of the photographer they had to deal with as "whack jobs". Why? Because they have an unwholesome view of copyright, entitlement, and importance. Viewing any and all infractions as tantamount to human cannibalism or worse.

A photographer needs to put the infraction into proper perspective though. It's like a person getting caught for j-walking by a cop and the cop going ape and pulling his gun and locking the guy up for 20 years. That is not balanced. It is not professional. It shows a lack of understanding.

So lets say someone uses a photo without permission. Ok, what next. The electric chair? How about talking to them to see whats up, let them know that photo costs X to display as is being done. Let them know you can bill them for it now, or maybe roll that into another job upcoming, or some other kind of cooperative agreement that does not pound them into nano-particles for daring to use your photos.

The professional way to handle this is to see to it that their immediate needs are met while at the same time still leaving the door open for more business and referrals later. You won't get that by going to war with the person over something so small and petty. If you do, add another check mark on the growing list of photographer whack jobs roaming the earth looking for blood.

What about the copyright laws, what about the word infringment, what about the word STOLEN...in my books that's breaking the law

Copyright laws allow you to persue infringement. You can do this in many ways, some constructive, and some destructive. The smart professional will look for ways that are constructive.

The thing is this isn't the first time this has happened to me either, when I started out this season, I found a few other photos of another girl in someone elses hands who had no right to them, confronted the offender and got a message confession and apology from her mother...and 18 year old girl, and her mom has to apologize for her

It won't be the last either. But if you treat enough people like criminals, your customer base will start to dwindle, because who needs that kind of pressure from a photographer. In their mind, they are just photos. In the mind of some photographers, they are perfect diamonds that are priceless treasures to be locked away lest someone undesirable see them.

Then something like this hits me, I take it personally, it hurts, I make soo many sacrifices to do this work, to put up good quality images of as many people as I can, I set myself apart from the competition because I care about the product that my clients take home.

That there is the problem, you are not taking this professionally, but personally. Don't do that. The photos are not your babies. They are images that have commercial value. Nothing more. If a few people get away without paying you for a wee pic here and there, it's not going to kill you or your business. But getting a bad reputation will. Sometimes it worth it to persue and sometimes it's best to let it go.

Think about it, do you get pulled over by a cop when you blast past them going a couple miles over the speed limit? It's still against the law right? Right? Yes it is, but they let you go because it's not worth it to persue. But it is still against the law. Do you really want them to be that inflexible? Do your customers want you to be that inflexible?

Let's turn the table here. Do you get signed model releases from each and every identifiable person that is shown on your website? If not, well, think about it. Do you really want to nitpic your customers to the point where they start hounding you for every little thing too? It can be a two way street you know, and your current attitude will lead to that kind of thing eventually.

However, when someone buys my work...that my friends is flattering.

That is a good professional attitude. I share it. Gain some perspective on the rest, treat this problem in a professional way, and both you and your customers will benefit in the long run.

Mike Lane · October 18, 2006

I say sue em. Sue them for all they're worth. I bet you could make a fine example out of them. It'd be something that would make a lasting impression and would ultimately mean that nobody would ever lift pictures again. Ever.

I bet you could get their house. They deserve to be homeless for this.

Sam · October 18, 2006

You asked for other opinions on this so here is mine.

It doesn't look like you have been in business for yourself, before. You really need to relax, and put this into the proper perspective. If the photo was taken by a large corp., and used in a national add campaign that certainly would be a copyright violation you would want to pursue. On the other hand an individual using a photo of his or her own horse, and daughter might be one where it would be far better to go lightly. Most individuals have very little idea of copyright laws. If you feel you want to contact this person I would recommend going softly explaining that your sure they didn’t realize they were doing anything wrong, and that you offer the images on your website for sale. Perhaps add if they wish to continue to use the images you would be happy to offer the images in best size resolution, etc for the intended use. See what the response is. You just might be pleasantly surprised. Oh, and I highly recommend reading Shay’s response twice.

Sam

dogwood · October 19, 2006

hear hear

Sam wrote:

Perhaps add if they wish to continue to use the images you would be happy to offer the images in best size resolution, etc for the intended use. See what the response is. You just might be pleasantly surprised. Oh, and I highly recommend reading Shay’s response twice.

Sam

I agree wholeheartedly. And this from someone who very recently HAD images stolen and had to threaten to sue to collect payment (a very different situation though-- signed usage agreement and all that and the photos appeared in two print ads contrary to our agreement).

Anyway, keep in mind if you sue, you'll get fair market value for the use of your image and court costs. For something like this, that might be $100 for the use of the photos, and $250 court fees (which is just a remimbursement of your filing fees). Only you can decide whether this is worth it.

cdonovan · October 19, 2006

Shay Stephens wrote:

That there is the problem, you are not taking this professionally, but personally. Don't do that. The photos are not your babies. They are images that have commercial value. Nothing more. If a few people get away without paying you for a wee pic here and there, it's not going to kill you or your business. But getting a bad reputation will. Sometimes it worth it to persue and sometimes it's best to let it go.

You are absolutly right, because i spend so much time with them i do treat them like family. Therein is the problem, I guess it's something that I will have to learn to get over.

I did contact the lady, she said that her daughter did the ad, she didn't know that the daughter had stolen the photo, but was going to take it down right away. I said that wasn't necessarily why I was calling, I was glad that she liked the picture and if she wanted to use it, that I would love to send her a higher res with my copyright/contact info on it, that way we'd both be happy. She said no, I'll delete it and put up our own picture. She apologized for not being more diligent with watching what her daughter did, she said this is a good lesson for her in copyright law.

So now she has a really awful shot of this horse, you know the ones with the big heads little body, all crooked looking...so if that's what she think will get the horse sold...wonderful.

I feel better for having confronted the situation

sirsloop · October 19, 2006

well, not the way I would have gone about it... but as long as you feel good about what happened

...not picking a fight here but the photos were up online without watermarks. Yes, its not right of her to steal the photo but c'mon. You wouldn't leave your babies naked and alone on the sidewalk would you?

Shay Stephens · October 19, 2006

cdonovan wrote:

I feel better for having confronted the situation

Excellent!!! Problem solved in a professional way that maintained the relationship! Bravo!

Shay Stephens · October 19, 2006

sirsloop wrote:

well, not the way I would have gone about it... but as long as you feel good about what happened

...not picking a fight here but the photos were up online without watermarks. Yes, its not right of her to steal the photo but c'mon. You wouldn't leave your babies naked and alone on the sidewalk would you?

Oh please...
People can edit or crop watermarks if they are desparate enough. And photos are not babies. It is best to watermark because it lessens the chances of someone using them without permission, but it is no guarantee. It will still happen.

I was at a wedding where an uncle setup a video show during the reception and started showing baby pics and growing up pics of the new bride and groom. Next to my shock was my online photos of their engagement pictures. The uncle snagged from the web, cropped out the watermark and then blew them up. It wasn't pretty. I was not happy. But the deed was done, and there was no point in persuing this because the guy was just trying to do something nice for the bride and groom and everybody loved the show. I was not going to win anything by going after the guy, so I let it go, and actually got a few compliments from guests about how nice the engagement photos were.

So who knows, I may get some referrals. A better chance than if I berate the uncle or force him after the fact to pay up. Sometimes you have to pick your battles and realize that unauthorized use can and will happen from time to time no matter what you do or how careful you are. Weigh the cost/benefit of persuing. If there is a real tangible benefit in persuing then go for it. But if there is no benefit other than "proving a point", you may be better off letting it go.

cdonovan · October 19, 2006

Shay Stephens wrote:

Excellent!!! Problem solved in a professional way that maintained the relationship! Bravo!

Thank you Shay!

well, not the way I would have gone about it... but as long as you feel good about what happened

Geeze sirsloop I guess I am confused with how you would have delt with the situation isn't it pretty much exactly what you suggested that I do

It's up to her if she wanted to use the photo and I think after having been asked she was so darn embarassed about the situation that she declined my offer. Naked babies on the street?????

I was too trusting, I guess that is all it comes down to by taking the watermarks off

How about emailing her a copy with at least your web address at the bottom. Just mention to her that you didn't authorize her use of the photo, and the least she can do is have your name on it. Besides, its hard enough getting those damn horses to stand there with ears forward! HAHA

Mike Lane · October 19, 2006

I still think you could have gotten their house if you sued.

cdonovan · October 19, 2006

Mike Lane wrote:

I still think you could have gotten their house if you sued.

I'll keep that in mind for the next time...just incase she steps out of line again!!!:giggle

Andy · October 19, 2006

cdonovan wrote:

and you think that i should .just let her get away with it...

Did I say that? I don't think so.

I guess, without using enough words (sorry about that) I meant, "try to work it out.."

Anyhow, good luck whatever you do!

beast625 · October 20, 2006

Sorry I'm coming in late here. The best client a lawyer can have is one who will pay to prosecute on principle. It's happened to me once in my legal career. Practically, if you're wealthy enough to finance the litigation, any attorney will take that case. Realistically, no attorney will take a single photo, single use copyright case on contingency. Well, maybe if you're suing a major publication, but certainly not under the circumstances posed here. You did the right thing in resolving this amicably. Defending principle and extracting a pound of flesh can be quite satifying, but VERY expensive.

dogwood · October 20, 2006

beast625 wrote:

Sorry I'm coming in late here. The best client a lawyer can have is one who will pay to prosecute on principle. It's happened to me once in my legal career. Practically, if you're wealthy enough to finance the litigation, any attorney will take that case. Realistically, no attorney will take a single photo, single use copyright case on contingency. Well, maybe if you're suing a major publication, but certainly not under the circumstances posed here. You did the right thing in resolving this amicably. Defending principle and extracting a pound of flesh can be quite satifying, but VERY expensive.

You mean the photographer couldn't have gotten the offender's house? What kind of country is this?

All I can say is Mike, you better hope the laws in the UK are more reasonable than the US laws!

Mike Lane · October 20, 2006

dogwood wrote:

You mean the photographer couldn't have gotten the offender's house? What kind of country is this? All I can say is Mike, you better hope the laws in the UK are more reasonable than the US laws!

I know. What kind of country is it that won't let you render homeless those who steal a single picture from you?

So I Found a STOLEN image

Comments