Options
First dSLR, what to get?
Ok, as the title says, I'm starting to serisouly shop around for my first dSLR. As of right now I'm looking in the $1000 area. The 4 cameras I have been looking at are the Canon 20D, 30D, XTi, and the Nikon D80. I guess my first question is, where can I even find the 20D anymore? B&H doesn't seem to sell it anymore. I'm interested in this camera because it has had so many good things said about it, and if I can get that camera for less then I'll have more money to spend on other equipment up front. (aka Lenses) I'm open to any and all suggestions! Thanks in advance!
Looks like I can get Canon EOS 20D 8.2MP Digital SLR Camera with EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 Lens from Beach Camera for $950. This seems wierd since the Rebel XTi is actually sold for less than that, but is a newer camera with more MP.
B&H has the EOS 30D, 8.2 Megapixel, SLR, Digital Camera with Canon EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 Autofocus Lens for $1150. This same camera is also available for more with different kit lenses on it but I won't post all of them that B&H lists here!
B&H has the EOS Digital Rebel XTi (a.k.a. 400D) 10.1 Megapixel, SLR, Digital Camera Kit (Black) with Canon 18-55mm EF-S Lens for $775.
The XTi is also available with EF-S 17-85mm f/4-5.6 IS USM Autofocus Lens for $1164, or without a kit lens for $695.
The D80 is listed at B&H for $925 body only, or $1050 with Nikon 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6G ED AF-S DX Zoom-Nikkor Autofocus or $1169 with Nikon 28-105mm f/3.5-4.5D IF Zoom Nikkor Autofocus Lens, or $1219 with Nikon 18-135mm f/3.5-5.6G ED-IF AF-S DX Zoom-Nikkor Lens.
Ok, so out of all those options what would be the best deal. Please keep in mind that this will be my first dSLR. The one reason I would be shying away from the D80 is because of the plastic body, vs metal on the Canons. But hopefully everyone here can help me shed some light on the subject! (pun intended!)
Looks like I can get Canon EOS 20D 8.2MP Digital SLR Camera with EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 Lens from Beach Camera for $950. This seems wierd since the Rebel XTi is actually sold for less than that, but is a newer camera with more MP.
B&H has the EOS 30D, 8.2 Megapixel, SLR, Digital Camera with Canon EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 Autofocus Lens for $1150. This same camera is also available for more with different kit lenses on it but I won't post all of them that B&H lists here!
B&H has the EOS Digital Rebel XTi (a.k.a. 400D) 10.1 Megapixel, SLR, Digital Camera Kit (Black) with Canon 18-55mm EF-S Lens for $775.
The XTi is also available with EF-S 17-85mm f/4-5.6 IS USM Autofocus Lens for $1164, or without a kit lens for $695.
The D80 is listed at B&H for $925 body only, or $1050 with Nikon 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6G ED AF-S DX Zoom-Nikkor Autofocus or $1169 with Nikon 28-105mm f/3.5-4.5D IF Zoom Nikkor Autofocus Lens, or $1219 with Nikon 18-135mm f/3.5-5.6G ED-IF AF-S DX Zoom-Nikkor Lens.
Ok, so out of all those options what would be the best deal. Please keep in mind that this will be my first dSLR. The one reason I would be shying away from the D80 is because of the plastic body, vs metal on the Canons. But hopefully everyone here can help me shed some light on the subject! (pun intended!)
0
Comments
Buying into your first SLR may not seem like a big step at first, but it can quickly spiral out into a huge investment. Don't be afraid to take it for a test drive.
Canon 40d | Canon 17-40 f/4L | Tamron 28-75mm f/2.8 | Canon 50mm f/1.8 | Canon 70-200mm f/4 L
I wouldn't necessarily let price, or "deal", dictate your choice. The XTi is a tiny camera body. Some love that. Some hate it. For some its too small for their hands to operate. Do you need the improved auto-focus capabilities of a 20D/30D? Or the faster frame rate? Etc.
A former sports shooter
Follow me at: https://www.flickr.com/photos/bjurasz/
My Etsy store: https://www.etsy.com/shop/mercphoto?ref=hdr_shop_menu
There are bodies which use more plastic for a shell than others, but that's about it, and the plastics used are typically filled polycarbonates as opposed to simpler compositions. The underlying structure of all modern dSLRs is metal, either stamped and formed, or cast and machined.
I have two copies of the Canon XT/350D, and it has been sturdy enough to support the venerable Canon 70-200mm, f2.8L, as well as an ancient 500mm Vivitar. I have had no issues with flexing or damage with either body. I do try not to support the lenses by the body alone, and I am very careful with my equipment, but that's just common sense.
I have never heard of any problems with the durability of the Nikon D80, or any other modern dSLR for that matter, so I personally feel that it a non-issue (unless you tend to drop or abuse your equipment).
As far as value, I believe that all current cameras are indeed great values. You really should focus (pun intended) on the differences in:
Responsiveness
Accuracy (focus, exposure and color)
Durability (shutter box and historical overall problems)
Use (occasional and snapshot vs. professional)
Ergonomics (how it fits your hand and layout of controls)
Versatility (high-ISO qualities and range of usable features "you" will need, fps etc.)
Notice I "didn't" mention megapixels. all of these cameras are enough to support many images to 16" x 20", so more megapixels is a relative non-factor.
Since this is a major purchase decision, I suggest you get to some stores to actually feel these cameras in your hands. Decide which features are important to you and your usage.
If you have specific questions about specific differences, we can help with those.
Remember to save much more money for a serious spread of lenses. Ultimately light and lens will have much greater impact on images than camera body, except for certain venues like sports, where the body can make a tremendous difference.
Check out the cameras here in the "Digital SLR ($1000-2000)" and "Digital SLR (under $1000)" categories.
http://www.steves-digicams.com/best_cameras.html
Once you narrow your search, compare specific models here:
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/sidebyside.asp
ziggy53
Moderator of the Cameras and Accessories forums
First off, we don't know what you plan to use this for so i'll assume that you are getting the camera to walk around and take photos.
For the body, I would take a close look at the XTi. If this is your first SLR, you most likely do not need the (more) metal body of the 30D, the finer spot metering, or faster shutter. I have both a Rebel XT and XTi and have used them both for sports photography with great results. They are GREAT little bodies and I see no reason to get the 30D at this point in time. Put your money in killer lenses.
I recommend getting a body only kit and get a black body (not silver). IMHO, all of the kit lenses are junk and not worth ANY amount of money. Some say the 18-55 is a good starter lens, but I think its a plastic kiddie toy that feels and sounds like it will fail at any moment. The 17-85IS is a WRECK. Horrible barrel distortion, obvious CA issues, and a lack luster build. I was given the 17-85IS accidentally in my kit and sold it shortly after - for an amazing $450!! I also got my hands on the 18-55 kit lens when I won my XTi and sold that POS. By getting the XTi body only and you'll leave yourself a good 300 bucks for a lens and accessories.
Accessories and lenses - Here's the fun part!
First off you need a memory card. I use a seagate 8GB microdrive with great success, but other larger CF cards are coming down in price. Figure around 100 bucks for a card. I suggest getting something AT LEAST 4GB or larger. This will allow you to shoot RAW images without running out of card space. I started out with a 2GB card shooting JPG and it sucks. RAW is where its at because it allows you to fine tune exposure and colors in post processing SO much better.
With the memory card out of the way you'll have a couple hundred bucks to get a lens with inside that $1000 budget. Again, I'm not sure what you planned on using this for so i'll just throw out one of my favorite cheap lenses. Take a peek at the Canon EF 35mm f/2.0. Its around $225 bucks and is a kick ass little lens. I bought the popular ef 50mm f/1.8 Mk1, hated it, and quickly sold in favor of the 35/2. If you give us some more info on your need, then we can help you out more with a lens.
Other things to consider down the line would be the battery grip. I have big hands, and the body feels AWESOME with the grip on there. Without the grip, I cant get my pinkey on the body. Small lenses are ok to use, but it sucks when you have a 70-200 f/2.8L (or larger) hanging off the front.
Lastly, Don't be fooled by all the marketing BS. The difference between a 8MP and 10MP 1.6x sensor is virtually undetectible in the final image. The XTi's anti-dust thing doesnt work for crap, you'll probably never need 1923843 fps... 3fps is fast enough to make a lot of people take two photos before they let off the shutter. Possibly the most important tip here is that you are buying a SYSTEM, not just a camera. There are a lot of systems out there, but few have been around for years and years and years with tons of aftermarket support and R&D. The two companies that come to mind are Canon and Nikon. Olympus and Pentax are making a come back, but I don't feel their system's are developed enough.
Do not try to save money going to a disreputable dealer. That company has one of the worst ratings of any company on the planet:
http://www.resellerratings.com/store/Best_Price_Cameras_6
Since you are just starting out, deal only with B & H and Adorama.
ziggy53
Moderator of the Cameras and Accessories forums
I keep swaying back and forth between the 30D and the XTi. I like the contols on the 30D, with the control dial on the back instead of menus to use all the time. However, like you said, for the major price difference I could get the extra lens I might need. How is the quality of the shots from the XTi? I had heard that some people were having noise problems even at lower ISO's out of it.
The other major advantage to me would be that I could get the XTi about 4 months sooner than I could the 30D, and I would have it for several trips I'm taking this summer, which would be really cool. Also, thanks for the warning about that site. I'll stick to those two dealers now!!
Which is better to go with the 20D, or the XTi?
FYI, adding IS to any lens generally adds around 500 bucks to the value. You can get some EXCELLENT short length zoomers in the 300-400 range without IS. I personally don't think IS is all that useful on lengths under 100mm anyways. If you don't have a hot shoe flash, you are better off putting that money into the 430ex or 580ex.
Also keep in mind, getting cheap lenses sounds like a good idea now but it will end up costing you more money down the line. The typical lens that people purchase that comes to mind is the 75-300 f/4-5.6 (or sigma 70-300). Both are aweful lenses and there are lenses out there for a little more that are absolutely FANTASTIC (ef 70-300 IS, ef 70-200/4).
Did you get approved for your second mortgage yet :-)
http://leeper.smugmug.com/
Would this lens work with the XTi? - Canon EF 50mm f/1.8 II - http://www.amazon.com/Canon-50mm-1-8-Camera-Lens/dp/B00007E7JU/ref=cm_lmf_tit_3/002-0573919-7275210 from reading the information about it it seems like it would be an ideal indoor available light lens for a pretty cheap price.
FYI, any lens thats listed as "EF" or "EF-S" will work with the XTi. The older "FD" mount lenses will NOT work.
http://www.adorama.com/CA352AFU.html?searchinfo=canon%20ef%2035%20f/2&item_no=5
Is that a decent price for it?
cheaper at BH
one of these couldnt hurt either...
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=Search&A=details&Q=&sku=23738&is=REG&addedTroughType=search
you'll hear different ideas, but I wouldn't get the kit lens, save the money and get a good canon lens if you can afford it, or get a really nice third party lens! you'll notice in my signature that I have Tamron 17-50 f/2.8 and I love it. it's pretty nice!
well, let's agree on one thing - - - stay away from Nikons. don't have anything against them - per se, I just don't like em...haha.
- RE
PM me with any questions you might have if you'd like!
www.rossfrazier.com/blog
My Equipment:
Canon EOS 5D w/ battery grip
Backup Canon EOS 30D | Canon 28 f/1.8 | Canon 24 f/1.4L Canon 50mm f/1.4 | Sigma 50mm f/2.8 EX DI Macro | Canon 70-200 F/2.8 L | Canon 580 EX II Flash and Canon 550 EX Flash
Apple MacBook Pro with dual 24" monitors
Domke F-802 bag and a Shootsac by Jessica Claire
Infiniti QX4
The main reason I was looking that direction was the control dial that the 30D has, and that the XTi doesn't, but the more I think about it the more I'm realizing for the extra money I really wouldn't get a whole lot out of the 30D that I couldn't get out of the XTi.
http://www.bobatkins.com/photography/reviews/18-55.html - This reviewer seems to think that while it isn't fantastic, it's hard to beat the value that you get with a lens that is basically $100. (The XTi is $695 body only, or $775 with the kit lens) That is only $80. While I realize in the long run this will not be anywhere near enough of a lens for me, if I get the camera with the kit lens I would be able to buy the whole setup basically tomorrow. If I hold off for a mor expensive lens, eve something that is only $250 or $300, I'll be waiting probably 5 or 6 months till I am able to get it. At this point I think I would rather have the camera with the kit lens for that amount of time and be able to be learning and practicing my shooting, instead sitting back waiting for a better lens that I wouldn't know how to properly use to begin with anyways.
On a slightly different note, would the 2GB Ultimate 133X be a good match for the XTi? B&H has it for 49.95, and if I go with this and the XTi with kit lens the entire package comes to around $830, something I could purchase tomorrow. Anyway, regardless of what I end up going with I want to thank everybody for the help. DGrin really is a fantastic place. Can't wait to be able to contribute a little bit more!!
The pixle counters will rant & rave about its low quality & continue take high quality shots of trees & dogs with their L lenses.
The photographers will continue to use their heads for a great shot & perform well with it.
My 2 bob ? Buy a well looked after 20D with some extras like a good tripod & head which will serve you much much better starting out.
As for the 2GB CF card... yeah that will work but thats ~200 RAW files before the card fills up. That may seem like a lot, but trust me its no problem for me to go to the zoo and knock out 600-800 photos in a couple hours. As far as faster CF cards ("ultra", "Extreme", "Insanely fast")... I think its mostly a marketing ploy and they are for the most part useless, especially with the larger memory buffer on the XTi. I use a microdrive for action photograhy and RARELY fill the buffer.
the difference between the 30D/20D and the XTi is more than simply "the dial." Back when I was making the choice between buying a 20D and the XT (all that were available at the time, this was a few years ago) the price difference between the two was about $3-400, and the megapixels were the same.
I eventually chose the 20D over the XT for the following reasons; first, I have sausage fingers, and the XT is pretty small to comfortably handle for me. This was probably reason number one- particularly later down the road when you strap a two pound lens on the thing, it does not feel like as solid or as easily gripped a platform as the 20D. The XTi is, I believe, even smaller, so the problem for a guy like me would be worse. Then again, if you have slender hands, you could find yourself in the opposite position. This is why you must hold both in your hands before you make the decision.
The dial is great, because the whole system is set up in a more ergonomic way than the XT or XTi; you can change settings without moving your camera around a whole lot, or rather, moving your hands around the camera. That makes jumping back and forth quicker and easier, and if you do stret shooting, allows you to pay more attention to your environment than the camera. I feel its more "intuitive" than the XTi, but then again, its what I am familiar with, so of course its more intuitive for me.
The heavy body helps, its' really very tough and solid- I've banged the thing a few times, and its OK. Although saying the XTi is "plastic" isn't fair really. Hell, some space shuttle parts are as "plastic" as the XTi is.
I think in the long run, the 20D/30D is the way to go; particularly if you are going to be putting a lot of time into using this thing. Simply put, it is a camera with more professional features. And the chicks dig it.
As for the megapixels, its certainly irritating (and mystifying from a marketing point of view)`that the 30D isn't a 10.1 like the XTi- that would, in my mind, make it the hands down winner. The MP count isn't as important as most people think, but its a nice thing to have.
The real question for me, if I were buying today, is wether to get the 20D or 30D. I took a look at the specs of the 30D, and there are improvements, but if its over $200 more I don't think I would go for it- particularly not when starting out, as you can get a nice lens for $2-300.
Also (Dare I speak this heresy?) don''t focus entirely on Canon. Nikon has a bunch of great stuff as well. If you have any friends with a Nikon camera, see if you can walk around for a day shooting it. Likewise with the Canon.
You will definitely be happy. And quite a bit poorer. This is just the beginning, my friend..
One thing to keep in mind is the market positioning of the cameras. The Rebels (XTi in your shopping list) are entry-level and have the most limited feature set. The 20D/30D is the mide-range "prosumer" body with additional and improved features (e.g., more control, better ergonomics, improved AF, etc). The D80 falls between those two.
Considering you are looking at low light/indoor flashless and sports shooting, I'd definitely stick with Canon.
For lenses, IMHO the 50/1.8 works just fine on the crop bodies. It translates to about an 82mm lens--great for protraiture. It can be a bit long indoors. So, no reason not to get one & it is one of the best price/performance deals Canon offers. The kit lens is inexpensive and when in it's sweet spot can make nice images, however, once you learn more that lens will just sit at the bottom of the bag and gather dust (mine does); I personally think one of the inexpensive primes is a better deal as they will still be used as experience is gained.
I personally wouldn't go overboard on memory cards right away. I prefer SanDisk Ultra II's & their prices are darn low now, AFAIK you can get a 1GB card for under $40. I have three of those & rarely feel the need to get more. Since you are just getting into DSLRs I wouldn't mess with RAW right away--that's a whole other steep learning curve, so a 1GB or 2GB card or two should be more than enough. You can always add more later.
http://www.chrislaudermilkphoto.com/
As a brand new shooter, I have to disagree with the advice to stay away from RAW. I recently got my XTi a few months ago; it's my first dSLR. For several years I've shot Nikon CoolPix cameras and loved them. Finally decided to jump in the deep end with Canon.
I decided when I got it that I would ONLY SHOOT IN RAW FORMAT, except for stock photos of things I put on eBay to sell.
Yes, the learning curve on using RAW is steep, but once you get over the hump, it's an awesome thing to be able to use. I only own a 1G card (overpaid for it, but that's another story). Just ordered two 4G cards to stretch my 'staying power' in the field. Yes, the 1G card limited me to 100 RAW shots per stretch, but that limitation, in my mind, is worth the capability to render the final picture in any way you want.
Another reason to use RAW--all the more knowledgable folks on this board are more than happy to help you figure it out. They've helped me tremendously. Yeah, I've got a long way to go, but then again, I just started.
As far as which camera to choose, I cannot help much there. I bought the XTi because it was in my price range and was attainable in the store that I have a proprietory credit account with. I also had played with my parents' XT a year ago, and enjoyed it immensely.
First thing I did was to buy a battery grip from Opteka on Amazon.com. The link is here:
http://www.amazon.com/Opteka-Battery-Canon-Digital-Rebel/dp/B000EDB1II/sr=8-3/qid=1170886712/ref=pd_bbs_sr_3/105-0349564-8045209?ie=UTF8&s=electronics
This thing is great! Makes the camera much easier to hold onto, and lengthens the shooting time available (holds two batteries instead of one). So far I have absolutely no complaints, and nothing but praise for it.
Another bit of advice...Immediately purchase a couple of extra batteries. You never know when your battery will crap out, and having two or three extras will be cheap insurance. Don't buy the "brand name" batteries though. Do an eBay search for "XTi battery" or "D30 battery"--whichever camera you get. I've used generic batteries for my Nikon CoolPix (absolute battery eaters) and I have three generics for my Canon. For about $4 each, they can't be beat. I've had no problems with them and recommend them also.
The advice so often given by others remains true: Try out a few different brands first. Hold them. Shoot with them. Compare the heft and feel of them. I really don't think you can go wrong with any one camera. They're all good, just some better than others.
I've already found one dgrinner in my area that is going to meet up with me (Thanks Christina!) and help me learn to use my camera better. I'm sure you can find others in your area that would be happy to show you their system so you can figure out which you would enjoy more.
HTH
Brad
www.facebook.com/SwearingenTurnings -- Hand made pens by yours truly
Rhuarc,
I second this train of thought. Get out shooting and learn how to use the camera and then figure out what lenses you need to get the shots you want.
Now go try the cameras and see how they work for you. The image quality will be good regardless what you pick so base your choice on the feel of the camera.
Erich
Thanks again for all the helpful insights!! I'm really looking forward to being able to contribute on a more regular basis around here now!
Im sorry but i have to say. Photography is art & thus subjective not about what the lens is worth. Dont fall into that anal retentive photography trap.
Dont look at the lenses failings but what you can see through the view finder that no-one else can. Thats what its all about.
Sorry im on a rant.