Help please? Blur issues.

Ashleighsmommy06 · February 15, 2007

Hi everyone! I am brand new to Dgrin AND photography in general. I'm taking class upon class to get a grasp on things and its slowly coming together. :scratch

My question is, how do I eliminate blur when shooting subjects that rarely stop moving? My children are 6 months and 2.5 years and NEVER stop moving. I try to use a 5.6 aperture when shooting them and it's usually a pretty bright room and I use a tripod. But it doesn't seem to work. I really don't want to use flash... any suggestions? :dunno

I've seen many of your photos on here and they are just so clear, bright and amazing... :bow any tips would be greatly appreciated! Thanks

Jill
Canon Rebel XTi
Canon 17-85mm, 70-300mm
So new that I don't even know what those numbers mean!

Rhuarc · February 15, 2007

Welcome to DGrin!! I'm in a little bit the same boat as you, having just purchased the XTi as well. I've been doing tons of reading though, so I'll try to answer your question till someone else comes along who can answer better! (probably won't have long to wait!:D) In basic answer to your question, if you want to stop motion blur you have to do one thing, increase your shutter speed to stop the motion. There are a couple of ways of doing this, and they all have tradeoffs.

Option 1 - Increase the ISO, this will increase the sensitivity of the sensor, allowing a faster shutterspeed to capture the same amount of light. The downside to this is usually higher ISO's start introducing noise into the picture.

Option 2 - Get "faster" glass. The wider open you can shoot, from an apeture stand point, the more light is hitting the sensor, the faster the shutter speed can be. The downside? COST. The lenses with wider open apetures in general are also more expensive.

Option 3 - Use flash. While you have already said you don't want to do this, there are ways of doing it so that it looks natural. If you use an external flash (not the onboard popup of the XTi) you can tilt the head straight up so it bounces off the ceiling, or in small rooms you could even bounce behind you. This will diffuse the light creating uch more natural looking photos, while still allowing the faster shutter speeds.

Option 4 - Combination!! Just doing one of these may not be enough, you may have to combine several of them to get what you want.

As far as what shutter speed you need to stop the motion of kids, I hav no idea. You'll have to wait for an answer from someone else for that. Anyway, hope this helps, and if any of this is wrong, someone please correct me!

System · February 15, 2007

The tripod will remove any motion blur associated with holding the camera steady. In order to freeze the motion of a moving subject, you need to increase the shutter speed. For a given exposure, there are multiple combinations of aperture, shutter speed, and ISO (film speed) that create a good exposure. For a given exposure, if you increase the shutter speed, you need to compensate by using a wider aperture (smaller number) or increasing the ISO (film speed). Another way is to use a flash. The flash duration is short enough to freeze the subject motion. The shutter speed you choose to sync at will control how much ambient light is recorded.

This all sounds complex but you can do some simple experiments to get the feel for how it works. Put your camera on a tripod. Set it to aperture mode. Select the widest aperture. Set your ISO to 100. Make note of the associated shutter speed. Increase the aperture and notice that the shutter speed decreases. Go back to the widest aperture. Increase the ISO and notice that the shutter speed increases.

With the camera on the tripod with a flash attached. Focus on a well lit subject. Put the camera in manual mode. Put the flash in TTL mode. Set the shutter speed to 1/60. Set the ISO 200 or 400 (you can set it to anything you want but for this example, a lower ISO will allow you to see more change in lighting). Take a picture. Notice the relation of areas illuminated by ambiient light and flash. Increase the shutter speed. Take another exposure. Compare it to the first. You should notice that the areas illuminated by ambient light are darker but the subject is correctly exposed by the flash. If you continue to increase the shutter speed, the background will eventually get very dark (very little ambient light contributing to the exposure) while the subject is still correctly exposed.

All this to say that if you want to freeze subject motion with ambient light, you have to increase the shutter speed by opening the aperture or increasing the ISO. You can use flash effectively if you use shutter speed to balance the ambient light with the flash.

Hope this helps.
Merv

Ashleighsmommy06 wrote:

Hi everyone! I am brand new to Dgrin AND photography in general. I'm taking class upon class to get a grasp on things and its slowly coming together.

My question is, how do I eliminate blur when shooting subjects that rarely stop moving? My children are 6 months and 2.5 years and NEVER stop moving. I try to use a 5.6 aperture when shooting them and it's usually a pretty bright room and I use a tripod. But it doesn't seem to work. I really don't want to use flash... any suggestions?

I've seen many of your photos on here and they are just so clear, bright and amazing... any tips would be greatly appreciated! Thanks

Jill
Canon Rebel XTi
Canon 17-85mm, 70-300mm
So new that I don't even know what those numbers mean!

Rhuarc · February 15, 2007

webelevy wrote:

With the camera on the tripod with a flash attached. Focus on a well lit subject. Put the camera in manual mode. Put the flash in TTL mode. Set the shutter speed to 1/60. Set the ISO 200 or 400 (you can set it to anything you want but for this example, a lower ISO will allow you to see more change in lighting). Take a picture. Notice the relation of areas illuminated by ambiient light and flash. Increase the shutter speed. Take another exposure. Compare it to the first. You should notice that the areas illuminated by ambient light are darker but the subject is correctly exposed by the flash. If you continue to increase the shutter speed, the background will eventually get very dark (very little ambient light contributing to the exposure) while the subject is still correctly exposed.

Hmm, I had never thought of doing this. It might help me to understand how the flash works a little more. Which mode is it best to use the flash in, Av, Tv, or M?

webelevy · February 16, 2007

Rhuarc wrote:

Hmm, I had never thought of doing this. It might help me to understand how the flash works a little more. Which mode is it best to use the flash in, Av, Tv, or M?

I would say the best mode is manual. Once you understand what is happening, it simplifies your setup and leads to more consistent and repeatable results. You have greater control over the flash to ambient light mix.

Remember, shutter speed controls the amount of ambient light that will be recorded. The flash will expose the subject based on the ISO, aperture, and distance.

Merv

Swartzy · February 16, 2007

As I was typing...
the differences in modes with flash...it dawned on me: "why re-invent the wheel?".

Our beloved Pathfinder is very knowledgeble and one of our moderators. He's written a great deal on this very subject, in fact there is a thread going on right now in this very forum! So, I will share what he's provided....now it's your turn.....go read this stuff, and re-read it, then goof around with your camera, and read it again....You'll wake up one morning and say, "OH, I get it"

EC stands for Exposure Compensation. It refers to +/- adjustments made to the Exposure Values suggested by the cameras metering system.

FEC is Flash Adjustment Compensation and is a similar +/- adjustment to the recommended flash setting suggested by the camera.

'Stopping down' refers to changing the aperture values to adjust the amount of light hitting the film or the sensor. Stopping down means adjusting the Aperture numbers to higher numbers - from f4 to f8 or on to f16 - each step decreases the amount of light hitting the sensor by 50%. Stopping down from f5.6 to f8 results in cutting the amount of ligh to the sensor by 1/2 ( unless a corresoponding change in shutter speed is made)

Here is a post I made previously about the EOS system flashes and how to use them..............................

I have described the use of the EOS sytem flashes several times, ( google flash - Pathfinder ) so I am going to refer you to the best links on the web re: the EOS system flashes. You cannnot decipher the results UNLESS you know the philosophy behind the various modes - The exposures are different when you shoot in Av or Tv, P, or Manual and you need to understand what the sytem is doing or it will be very confusing - Lots of folks complain about the exppsure with the EOS system and it is because they do not understand the basic plan behind the results.

The EOS System flashes work great and are emminently flexible and controllable, but their manuals do a poor job of explaining how to get them to do your bidding. I use the EOS flashes frequently since I read these three links and figured out what the underlying philosphy re: expsoure is. Do a search here on dgrin using "pathfinder and flash" and you should find some of the threads I have posted here also.

There are three links

http://photonotes.org/articles/eos-flash

http://photonotes.org/articles/eos-flash/index2.html

http://photonotes.org/articles/eos-flash/index3.html

There is also a great video put out by Blue Crane and available from B&H that is very helpful

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/cont...goryNavigation

Read the links, and if you still are having problems, PM me and I'll help you sort it out.
__________________
Pathfinder

Moderator of the Technique Forum and the Finishing School on Dgrin

www.pathfinder.smugmug.com

Cave fatuis!

pathfinder · February 16, 2007

Folks are quoting me now - this is really scary!!:D

pathfinder · February 16, 2007

Asleysmommy,

The best way to stop the movement of fast moving subjects, children, is with a higher, faster shutter speed. I would suggest no longer than 1/250th, maybe even 1/500th. This may be difficult to do indoors without lots of large lights, and without fast, large aperture lenses and higher ISOs than you really want to use.

The other alternative is to use flash, as it is a very brief light that does stop motion. The flash does not have to be direct, but can be bounced off a nearby white wall or ceiling and give pretty nice effects. On camera use of flash is best avoided for the best imagery.

Sam · February 16, 2007

I'm not sure you people, yes I said you people, understand just how much sharing you expertise is benefiting everyone with less knowledge of the questioned subject.

You are increasing the learning curve exponentially.

You explanations are clear, concise, and succinctly explains the elements involved.

While I have known this for quite some time this subject brought it to mind again. As I think you have read I received a set of Alien Bees AB800 strobes this week and have been trying to learn how to use the darn things.

My first project is to learn how to photograph simple small products against a white background for web, or print use.

Once everything is set up I just start taking photos, and change one thing at a time and observe the results. Time consuming. (Yes I have a few books, and am reading as well.)

Most of my photographic efforts have relied on ambient light, so this is the first time I have focused on using light from flash or strobes.

Yesterday after reviewing one particular shot I wanted to increase the exposure, so I decreased the shutter speed. I decreased it 5 times with no effect! What the heck! Wait, lets think this trough….DUH!!! The only light available is the strobe, the strobe is very fast, hence slowing the shutter down doesn’t change the amount of light getting to the sensor.

Had I known this thread was coming, I could have skipped that test, saved an hour, and read the answer today.

The point here is, thank you all for your help. You really are making positive difference for so many people.

Sam

pathfinder · February 16, 2007

Hi Sam.

Thanks,.....I think......:D

You are probably referring to webelevy's post tho............

Sam · February 16, 2007

pathfinder wrote:

Hi Sam.

Thanks,.....I think......:D

You are probably referring to webelevy's post tho............

Pathfinder,

My compliment, that's what is suposed to be, but if writting was my forte I would buy a good pen. While better camera equipment has helped my photography a good pen doesn't seem to help with the writting.

It was just ment for, and as a general positive statement about the posters here, and your definitly on the top part of that list.

Sam

Sam · February 16, 2007

Continuing with the strobe learning today. I set up a shot of a very rare bottle of wine. (I seriously doubt any one here has a bottle. I am actually thinking about auctioning off this rare wine to purchase some L glass.)

In fact I made up a sophisticated mock add for a group of investors who have expressed an interest in bringing back the perennial favorite.

I digress, after setting up the lights, and wine bottle I took some photos first with tripod, and mirror lock up, then hand holding. The tripod shots were very sharp, but I was surprised at how well the hand held shots were. I have had way too much coffee this morning and was wobbling around like Paula Abdul so I wasn’t expecting them to be very sharp.

While I can see a difference the hand held shot is very good and usable. In small sizes you won’t be able to tell them apart. Even blown up you would have to put them side-by-side to see the difference.

In conclusion I would say don’t be afraid to hand hold when using flash.

Sam

LiquidAir · February 16, 2007

I have a 2 1/2 year old so I share your pain. When shooting in a bright interior (daytime with lots of windows) without a flash, I usually start at ISO 800 and f/2.8. Depending on the circumstances, I'll bump the ISO to 1600 or open the apeture to f/2 (or occasionally f/1.4). If you really want to avoid a flash indoors, you will need a different lens. I would suggest starting with the Canon 50/1.4.

Just buying a new lens will not by itself solve your problem. It takes quite a bit of practice to get accurate focus with the shallow DoF at wide apetures. In these situations, program mode on your camera will fail you regularly. I am riding the apeture and shutter speed continuously when I am shooting in low light.

Swartzy · February 16, 2007

Sam & all
Was working on a correspondence course shoot today (they want it busy BTW). I don't have the AB's yet but do have 2 RPS Studio 5200K lights with stands (don't burn hot at all) used with bounce flash (found sto-fen worked best for this shot). I haven't done much post with it yet....

ISO 100
27mm
0.3 sec
F/11
Manual

Ashleighsmommy06 · February 16, 2007

LiquidAir wrote:

I have a 2 1/2 year old so I share your pain. When shooting in a bright interior (daytime with lots of windows) without a flash, I usually start at ISO 800 and f/2.8. Depending on the circumstances, I'll bump the ISO to 1600 or open the apeture to f/2 (or occasionally f/1.4). If you really want to avoid a flash indoors, you will need a different lens. I would suggest starting with the Canon 50/1.4.

Just buying a new lens will not by itself solve your problem. It takes quite a bit of practice to get accurate focus with the shallow DoF at wide apetures. In these situations, program mode on your camera will fail you regularly. I am riding the apeture and shutter speed continuously when I am shooting in low light.

Thank you for all that info... very helpful!!

Ok this question may really reflect my ignorance, but what is the difference between canon 50/1.8 and 50/1.4???

Jeffro · February 16, 2007

Ashleighsmommy06 wrote:

Ok this question may really reflect my ignorance, but what is the difference between canon 50/1.8 and 50/1.4???

.4

Okay, seriously now, I had the 50 1.8 for years. It's inexpensive, fast, and pretty sharp for the money. It held up for over 10 years. It finally fell to it's death...literally, and I bought the 50 1.4, it's faster, built better, focuses faster, is sharper, but cost way more. But I think the extra money was worth it. I love the 1.4. I opted for the lens hood too. This thing makes a great portrait lens on my 20D.

pathfinder · February 16, 2007

Here is an in depth explanation of aperture and the difference in various f stops.

From f1.4 to f1.8 is about 1/2 stop of light

Sam · February 17, 2007

Swartzy,

Yup, it's busy alright. looks like some work to set it up, but seems like nice even lighting.

I think the learning curve on the ABs will be a little steeper, but not all that bad, and very worth it.

I am trying to teach myself sans correspondence course.

This is one of the setups today.

Sam

Sam · February 17, 2007

And here is the best result so far. Not great, but after trying a dozen or so different light, bounce arangements I think I am learning. Slow to be sure, but getting there.

Sam

Swartzy · February 17, 2007

OOOOOhhhhhh
I am sooooo lusting....look at those softboxes...and that table...and...Nice set up Sam! One of the guys from our local club sent this link along for light modeling. I thought of this discussion immediately. The link is called Virtual Portrait Lighting:

http://www.photoworkshop.com/public/3D_rooms/lightcage/index.html

Time to hop on the bike and grab some photo ops

pathfinder · February 17, 2007

Very nice setup Sam.

I like your table, and I see a motorcycle in the background too.:D

For the shot your working on, a light tent might offer some advantages. I made a frame out of PVC pipe and cover in as needed with an old white sheet.

Sam · February 17, 2007

Ok, a couple of things. My neighbor has a light tent, and we tried to use table lamps etc with very limited success.

I found the tent awkward to work with. I have pretty much figured out how to get even lighting for small product type items. The shot I posted was an experiment to deliberately create shadows, but bounce light under the hat to illuminate the lens. This shot isn’t intended to be anything but a learning project.

I am trying to get a visual sense of what happens when I change light position, ratios, and use black, or white bounce cards. Maybe in a month or two I’ll look at gobos, grids, snoots, barn doors, polorizing gels, etc.

Also since I don’t have a light meter (yes I know, it’s on the very long list) I am trying to get a feel for what a properly exposed image looks like on the camera’s histogram, and LCD with different colored backgrounds, and varied colored subjects. This is not nearly as clear as an outdoor scene.

The plan is to first learn to light small objects with various surface characteristics, and reflectivity suitable for both web, and print use. Next to work on more creative lighting for small objects to incorporate shadows, backgrounds, and more elaborate setups. Again with a more product orientated objective. Next look at larger objects, for example a motorcycle, or larger piece of industrial equipment. Last but certainly not least people! I would really like to learn how to get those fantastic portraits I see posted.

Here are two simple shots. One is with a black object on a white background, and the next black objects on a black background.

Sam

Sam · February 17, 2007

Black on black.

Sam · February 17, 2007

In my previous post I said I had a couple of things to comment on. Yesterday I carefully chose the lure, and cast it out into the forum, and guess what? No bites! Not even a nibble!

Sniff, sniff.

This of course isn’t as good when I have to explain it. :cry

I posted what I thought was an arrogant, elitist statement:

“I set up a shot of a very rare bottle of wine. (I seriously doubt any one here has a bottle. I am actually thinking about auctioning off this rare wine to purchase some L glass.)

In fact I made up a sophisticated mock add for a group of investors who have expressed an interest in bringing back the perennial favorite.”

While it’s true I don’t believe anyone here has a bottle of this, and as far as I know I might have the last remaining bottle on earth it’s not as valuable as one might think.

Now I will post this add mock up.

Does anyone remember this?

Sam

pathfinder · February 17, 2007

It's not a great wine, but it is a good wine:D

Very nicely done lighiting on your fan and the black knife. I do see reflections of the two softboxes on the base of the fan.

Jeffro · February 17, 2007

What's this thread about again?

Attention passengers, there will be a slight change in our flight plan....

Swartzy · February 17, 2007

Ummmmmm

Jeffro wrote:

What's this thread about again? Attention passengers, there will be a slight change in our flight plan....

AFLAC?

Terrence · February 17, 2007

I'm having the same problem in my wildlife photography but worse. I'm tripod mounted in great light and *still* can't get a tack sharp picture. I'm shooting with a Rebel XT and Canon 100-400. Today, for example, I was able to shoot 400mm at 1/1000, f/8 and I'm scratching my head on why the shots are soft. Minimal motion too. On top of that, f/8 and f/11 are supposed to be the sharpest apertures for the 100-400. Argh.

pathfinder · February 18, 2007

Terrence, we have all hijacked Ashleysmommys thread far too much.

Why don't you open a new thread of your own and post a few images, maybe even with links to the original files, and we can all try to see why you aren't getting sharp images?

Your aperture and shutter speed sound like the images should be acceptable if properly focused and image stabilized, etc.

Terrence · February 18, 2007

pathfinder wrote:

Terrence, we have all hijacked Ashleysmommys thread far too much.

Why don't you open a new thread of your own and post a few images, maybe even with links to the original files, and we can all try to see why you aren't getting sharp images?

Your aperture and shutter speed sound like the images should be acceptable if properly focused and image stabilized, etc.

Will do. Appologies for the transgression of forum manners. I had a feeling I should have just posted separate.

pathfinder · February 18, 2007

Actually Terrence, I thought Sam and I were the real transgressors here, not you.:D

Help please? Blur issues.

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