Prize update! fotoflot bling

AndyAndy BicameralNew YorkPosts: 50,151Registered Users Major grins
edited December 23, 2007 in The Dgrin Challenges
[IMGL]http://myskitch.com/awilliamsny/mozilla_firefox-20071019-163814.jpg[/IMGL]Our newest member of ClubSmug is fotoflōt, and they've added to the LPS prize bootay!!!!!!!


Prizes & Rules updated :D

Oh and guess what. If you won 1st, 2nd or 3rd already this year, you can email me and we'll hit you up with the good stuff from fotoflōt :deal

:barb :ivar
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Comments

  • DavidTODavidTO Mod Emeritus Thousand Oaks, CAPosts: 19,160Registered Users, Retired Mod Major grins
    edited October 19, 2007
    That is so cool!
    Moderator Emeritus
    Dgrin FAQ | Me | Workshops
  • wxwaxwxwax Immoderator Posts: 15,471Registered Users Major grins
    edited October 19, 2007
    Agreed, looks great.
    Sid.
    Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis, ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam
    http://www.mcneel.com/users/jb/foghorn/ill_shut_up.au
  • ShudderzShudderz Major grins Posts: 346Registered Users Major grins
    edited October 19, 2007
    These look beautiful. What a great way to make a quick change in a gallery. You mount the hardware and then the pictures attach by magnets. When you have new pictures done, simply pull the old one off and put a new one up with magnets! How Cool!wings.gif


    EDIT: And once you log in using your smugmug ID, you have immediate access to your smugmug albums and images!!!
    Heather
    www.heatherdunnphotography.com
    My Blog My Facebook Page
    GIVING BACK - How will you give?
    "I look at life outside of the lens and capture the world through it." -Thomas Robinson
  • peterst6906peterst6906 Expat Aussie Posts: 267Registered Users Major grins
    edited October 19, 2007
    That is fantastic. Great kudos to both fotoflot and to SmugMug.

    Regards,

    Peter
    It's not my camera's fault, I'm just visually illiterate
  • jdryan3jdryan3 tao te grin Posts: 1,353Registered Users Major grins
    edited October 19, 2007
    DavidTO wrote:
    That is so cool!

    David -
    Could the image be printed/mounted like the large one you showed from Marc Muench and then hung on the wall using this system/magnets? Would one want to do that? headscratch.gif
    "Don't ask me what I think of you, I might not give the answer that you want me to. Oh well."
    -Fleetwood Mac
  • DavidTODavidTO Mod Emeritus Thousand Oaks, CAPosts: 19,160Registered Users, Retired Mod Major grins
    edited October 19, 2007
    jdryan3 wrote:
    David -
    Could the image be printed/mounted like the large one you showed from Marc Muench and then hung on the wall using this system/magnets? Would one want to do that? headscratch.gif


    Sure looks like it, and probably.
    Moderator Emeritus
    Dgrin FAQ | Me | Workshops
  • ShudderzShudderz Major grins Posts: 346Registered Users Major grins
    edited October 20, 2007
    I had a few questions regarding the products offered from fotoflōt. I sent an email to them and they were very quick to respond and provide me some answers. I thought I'd share the info w/ you all.

    Currently their website only has pricing for the photo panels with a mounting bracket. Once you've bought a panel with the bracket and want to replace it with a different photo, you can order a panel without the bracket. They should have that pricing up on their site soon.

    The following sizes share the same wall mounting bracket: 5x15, 7.5x10, 7.5x15, 10x10, 10x12.5, 10x15 and 12.5x15. So you can interchange all these sizes on a single bracket - as long as they're all either portrait or landscape orientation, and there's enough wall space.

    All the other sizes use different mounting brackets - or in some cases pairs of the same bracket above, but spacing differences would preclude using them for different product sizes.


    For just a bracket: For the small sizes mentioned above (5x15 to 12.5x15), the wall mount is $5.00 plus shipping. For other sizes, the price ranges from $10 to $35.
    Subtract those amount from product prices to get the price of the photo panel alone. E.g. the 7.5x10 product is $45; without the wall mount it's $40. The 15x30 is $185; without the wall mount it's $150.



    I'm looking forward to placing my first order with fotoflōt!
    Heather
    www.heatherdunnphotography.com
    My Blog My Facebook Page
    GIVING BACK - How will you give?
    "I look at life outside of the lens and capture the world through it." -Thomas Robinson
  • tommcatommca Big grins Posts: 34Registered Users Big grins
    edited October 20, 2007
    DavidTO wrote:
    Sure looks like it, and probably.
    Andy, thanks for letting the group know about fotoflōt.

    David, you're right that there are similarities between fotoflōt and the mounting process used by Finishing Concepts and others - both are mounting a photographic print to a thin, rigid material.

    There are several differences as well. First, we're using acrylic panels as the substrate. That allows us to trim the edges of the print and acrylic with a laser, fusing the print and acrylic and creating a polished edge. To achieve that, we're using a process that's unique in the industry.

    Second, we use matte paper (Fuji Crystal Archive) and don't over-laminate the surface of the print to minimize glare. Photo paper is very durable these days. You can clean it with a damp cloth and even use a little alcohol if necessary - it won't damage the emulsion. You don't need UV protection with papers like Fuji Crystal Archive - it would be many decades before you'd see any perceptible fading under typical lighting conditions.

    Third, the magnetic mounting system is unique and makes it easy to change out pictures. We've filed patents on the system, and expect them to issue in a few months.

    I hope that's helpful. I would appreciate hearing any questions or feedback that you and others have.

    Tom McAuliffe
  • peterst6906peterst6906 Expat Aussie Posts: 267Registered Users Major grins
    edited October 20, 2007
    tommca wrote:
    I hope that's helpful. I would appreciate hearing any questions or feedback that you and others have.

    Tom,

    Very helpful indeed.

    A quick question about embedded color profile.

    In general, files on SmugMug are embeeded with sRGB to match both the web viewing environment and the recommendation from EzPrints.

    However, I notice that you can handle Adobe RGB and also, after I login, I can select any image from my collection of SmugMug images (which is a great feature in my opinion).

    As a result, I am thinking of creating a private gallery and then uploading images embedded with Adobe RGB to use for the fotoflot prints.

    Just wondering whether you have any comments or recommendations on the best profile to embed for your printing process (I'm no printing genius as you can easily tell).

    Can you also handle ProPhoto embedded files?

    Also, is there are downloadable profile for your printer/paper combination we can use for softproofing and do you normally use perceptual or relative for rendering intent?

    Thanks in advance.

    Regards,

    Peter
    It's not my camera's fault, I'm just visually illiterate
  • jdryan3jdryan3 tao te grin Posts: 1,353Registered Users Major grins
    edited October 20, 2007
    Also, is there are downloadable profile for your printer/paper combination we can use for softproofing and do you normally use perceptual or relative for rendering intent?

    15524779-Ti.gif This would be very nice indeed!
    "Don't ask me what I think of you, I might not give the answer that you want me to. Oh well."
    -Fleetwood Mac
  • beacazilbeacazil Big grins Posts: 25Registered Users Big grins
    edited October 21, 2007
    Tom,

    ...

    Just wondering whether you have any comments or recommendations on the best profile to embed for your printing process (I'm no printing genius as you can easily tell).

    Can you also handle ProPhoto embedded files?

    Also, is there are downloadable profile for your printer/paper combination we can use for softproofing and do you normally use perceptual or relative for rendering intent?

    Peter

    Peter,

    Let me answer your questions. I co-founded sentiam with Tom and Jim and wrote the sentiam/fotoflōt image work flow.

    In answer to your question about ProPhoto - yes, we can handle files with a ProPhoto profile. We can handle any ICC profile as long as it is embedded in the file. We even have customers who shoot in black & white, and we handle their gray scale profiles as well. In all cases, we convert directly from the embedded profile to the native profile for our machine/paper combination (Durst Theta 51/Fuji Crystal Archive), avoiding any intermediate conversion steps that could affect dynamic range or accuracy. We also handle a range of file formats, including TIFF as well as JPEG.

    Right now only SmugMug members can order from fotoflot.com, with images coming directly from your SmugMug account. As you mentioned, SmugMug converts all files to an sRGB profile. We're in the process of adding direct upload capability to fotoflot.com; once it's implemented in the next few weeks, you can upload a file to fotoflot.com with any embedded ICC profile you choose.

    Regarding your question of which profile is best, here are my views. They're based on working with people from Durst, SmugMug, and i2e, reading a lot of theoretical papers and opinions from respected practitioners, and implementing our work flow:
    • For most images there will be minimal, if any, difference between prints made with an sRGB profile vs. an Adobe RGB or ProPhoto profile. For those images containing some highly saturated colors that are out of gamut for an sRGB profile, high-quality conversion engines using high-quality color profiles can do a very good job of selecting replacement colors.
    • When you have images containing highly saturated colors and you want to achieve the best possible print quality, then you should select Adobe RGB (or ProPhoto, which has an even wider gamut). But to get full advantage from the color profile, you must also shoot and post process in RAW mode and save images in 16-bit TIFF format using no or lossless compression before printing. Otherwise you'll gain color information in some areas, but at the expense of color information in other areas. (See the explanation in this SmugMug blog, and especially this reference in that blog.)
    • Your choice of profile needs to be driven by your work flow and intent. If you have several camera sources and maybe even scans from negatives, standardizing on sRGB for your portfolio might be the best bet. That way you have more consistency across your portfolio and when you make prints. You also have much better results when people look at the images on monitors that are not calibrated or profiled. Finally, you'll probably spend less time in post-processing – but for the majority of photos the results will be very close to the more involved work flows and profiles.
    • If your work flow requires extreme color accuracy with the object in the photo (like product photography, certain medical and scientific photography) your best bet may be the process described above: shoot and process in RAW, export the results to 16-bit TIFF (no compression or lossless compression like LZW or ZIP), using the ProPhoto profile.
    • In any case, you should aim for the smallest possible number of profile conversions from the moment you take a photo to the moment it is printed. If sRGB is the profile for you, you may want to set the camera to shoot sRGB natively, rather than shooting in some other profile and then later converting to sRGB (exception: if you shoot raw and export to TIFF with profile later).
    • You should use very high quality profiles (who made the profile that claims to be sRGB, Adobe RGB, ProPhoto...?) and conversion engines. After all, the combination of profile and software changes the color values of all your pixels. I have seen all kinds of “sRGB” profiles show up on in my profile folder after installing various photo related software. Looking at their content, some of them were quite questionable.
    Bottom line on the profile decision: you'll get the absolute best print quality - with fotoflōt and elsewhere - by using a ProPhoto profile, shooting and post processing in RAW mode, and exporting your files as 16-bit TIFF (no compression or lossless compression ). But in reality you won't see a difference in most images, and the difference may be minimal in most of the rest. Given all factors, I would recommend the sRGB route for most customers, but only you can decide which option is best, and for which images. fotoflot.com can handle all approaches once our direct upload capability is implemented in a few weeks.

    Regarding your question about a downloadable profile for your printer/paper combination: At present we have opted not to provide profiles for download. Please remember that many factors impact color representation (changes over time in the machine, the chemistry, the paper, ...), and that a profile is only a snapshot in time. Therefore, we periodically make test prints and adjust the profile as needed, and we can't see an easy way of “revoking” downloaded profiles when we generate a new one. So far this approach hasn't created any problems and has actually provided better consistency over time.

    We use perceptual rendering intent with black-point compensation when we convert customers images to our internal Durst/Fuji profiles.

    Hope this helped.
  • peterst6906peterst6906 Expat Aussie Posts: 267Registered Users Major grins
    edited October 22, 2007
    Thanks Jurgen,

    That had all the info I wanted and then some.

    I'm looking forward to seeing the results hanging on my wall.

    Regards,

    Peter
    It's not my camera's fault, I'm just visually illiterate
  • tommcatommca Big grins Posts: 34Registered Users Big grins
    edited October 22, 2007
    fotoflōt and canvas mount - differences
    I got a question via email from a SmugMugger asking about the differences between fotoflōt and canvas mounting. I thought it would be useful to post my response for others to see too:

    fotoflōt is similar to a canvas-mount photograph in that it is displayed in simple fashion without glass in front of the image. But there are key differences as well:
    • The fotoflōt image is true photographic quality, since it is printed on Fuji Crystal Archive paper. The print is adhered to the front of an acrylic panel. Print and acrylic are then trimmed with a laser, fusing the two together and creating a polished edge. There is no lamination or other treatment of the print's surface. Canvas mounts are made by removing the emulsion layer from a print and transferring it to a canvas-like material. While the process can produce a beautiful painting-like effect, it also significantly affects the image's appearance. That's not necessarily bad, it's just different.
    • As mentioned above, the fotoflōt manufacturing process produces a smooth, highly polished edge, which creates a unique appearance.
    • The process also produces a very precise edge. There is no need to allow for a "bleed" border: because of the laser's precision, the fotoflōt image edges precisely match the edges of the digital image.
    • fotoflōt panels are displayed using a unique magnetic mounting system. Align the magnetic cups on the back of the photo panel with the magnetic discs on the wall bracket, and the panel snaps into place. You can remove the panel and replace it with a different one in seconds. The mounting system produces a floating effect, so that the thin panel seems to float 1/2" or so off the wall.
    • Finally, a number of fotoflōt sizes are available with desk mounts to display on flat surfaces.

  • AndyAndy Bicameral New YorkPosts: 50,151Registered Users Major grins
    edited October 22, 2007
    15 more fotoflōts on the way to me now :ivar
  • tommcatommca Big grins Posts: 34Registered Users Big grins
    edited October 24, 2007
    Andy wrote:
    Oh and guess what. If you won 1st, 2nd or 3rd already this year, you can email me and we'll hit you up with the good stuff from fotoflōt deal.gif

    wings.gif :ivar
    peterst6906 and annnna8888 have claimed their good stuff from fotoflot. There are four more winners out there from Semifinals 1 and 2 - just email Andy and you'll get your fotoflot gift certificates!
  • seastackseastack Major grins Posts: 716Registered Users Major grins
    edited October 24, 2007
    tommca wrote:
    peterst6906 and annnna8888 have claimed their good stuff from fotoflot. There are four more winners out there from Semifinals 1 and 2 - just email Andy and you'll get your fotoflot gift certificates!

    Email sent. Looking forward to it, what a great product! So many possibilities!
  • LlywellynLlywellyn Temperamental Irishwoman Mountain View, CAPosts: 3,186Registered Users, Retired Mod
    edited October 24, 2007
    Andy wrote:
    15 more fotoflōts on the way to me now :ivar

    15? eek7.gif Wow!

    This is really so cool. SmugMug (and those it partners with) never ceases to amaze me. I love this group! clap.gif

    I have a feeling a few things from the Scotland workshop next year will be making it to fotoflōt. mwink.gif
  • AndyAndy Bicameral New YorkPosts: 50,151Registered Users Major grins
    edited October 26, 2007
    seastack wrote:
    Email sent. Looking forward to it, what a great product! So many possibilities!
    I may have missed your email - pls pm tommyca and go direct to the source, okay?
  • zweiblumenzweiblumen Spec Ops Posts: 369Registered Users Major grins
    edited October 26, 2007
    Just got my fotoflot today. It's the image of Gus I put up in the best of gallery.

    Picture of it hanging coming soon. FWIW I think it's bloody awesome!

    Thanks fotoflot and smugmug. Great combination, and when I had questions Jürgen was quick to respond. thumb.gif thumb.gif
    Travis
  • presencepresence Big grins Posts: 54Registered Users Big grins
    edited November 3, 2007
    @ the fotoflot guys
    Your products look great thumb.gif On your website, I really like the sample pictures that show your products above the sofa. It's a great visual selling tool.

    My question is not strictly photo-related. I realise you're probably focussed on the American market at the moment but there are a lot of non-American smugmuggers here.

    Your T&C's say:

    Your are responsible for the payment of any shipping outside the United States.

    Does this mean you'll pre-quote for YOU to ship it outside of the States to, say, Europe or do you mean WE have to arrange to collect it from your HQ? P.S. don't use USPS!

    Good luck with your venture.
  • tommcatommca Big grins Posts: 34Registered Users Big grins
    edited November 3, 2007
    presence wrote:
    Does this mean you'll pre-quote for YOU to ship it outside of the States to, say, Europe or do you mean WE have to arrange to collect it from your HQ? P.S. don't use USPS!
    Thanks for the positive feedback. We need to clarify our language in the T&C's, as we have recently implemented shipping outside the U.S.

    You can ship fotoflots to most countries, including Ireland. The product price includes shipping within the U.S.; when you ship to another country, we charge for the incremental shipping cost. When you order and enter your country and postal code, it will display the cost of shipping. For Ireland, the shipping cost ranges from $19 US to $30 US depending on the product.

    We are using USPS (Priority Mail), and our experience has been excellent, including with shipments outside the U.S. But I would appreciate more detail on your experience with them, and we always listen to customer feedback and work to improve our product and service.

    Thanks, Tom
  • presencepresence Big grins Posts: 54Registered Users Big grins
    edited November 3, 2007
    Thanks for the quick reply.
    We are using USPS (Priority Mail), and our experience has been excellent, including with shipments outside the U.S. But I would appreciate more detail on your experience with them, and we always listen to customer feedback and work to improve our product and service.

    This paragraph is going may sound more dramatic than it actually was. Before I set up my photography business, it's wasn't my main job but I dealt with many courier companies shipping our products around mainly Europe and, to a lesser extent, from USA to Europe. I've had to sign many a non-disclosure agreement (NDA's) so I can't be too specific about the industry.

    The main thing is a tracking number. You and I should be able to track my purchase from your front door to my front door. When, and something will go wrong, e.g., 1% of the time, it's important for everyone to be able to document what happened...

    -- it left fotoflot HQ on Monday @9am
    -- It arrived in courier's regional hub on Monday @ 2pm
    -- it arrived in courier's main hub on Tues @ 9am
    -- it was put on the plane on Tues @ 1pm
    -- it arrived in courier's main European hub on Wed @ 1pm




    -- etc.

    See how much involvement the courier has with a 'simple' transaction between fotoflot and I? It's scary. But if something goes wrong, it's easy to figure out who made the mistake. I used to be the general manager at my last company and this easily took up 20% of my time :cry

    For example, customer complains, 'where's my product'? You can say (private courier company) picked it up on Monday and here's the tracking number. Or you can say, USPS picked it up and there's no tracking number. Here's a freephone number which doesn't work outside of the States, go call a civil servant.

    With a tracking number, the courier company is the responsible party if something goes missing. I haven't checked in a while but I'm pretty sure USPS won't agree service level agreements (SLA's) whereas the private courier companies will generally agree to some sort of compensation.

    Courier companies get it to Europe within the week. USPS, IIRC, quote 2-8 WEEKS! We used to wonder if USPS were sailing it across the Atlantic ocean.

    </rant> <img src="https://us.v-cdn.net/6029383/emoji/rolleyes1.gif"; border="0" alt="" >

    To finish, obviously I have a personal bias against USPS. It's funny because, just today, I was researching getting some photos block-mounted. Your product sounds better. Serendipity!! I'll sign up to fotoflot and see how things develop but I, personally, would be reluctant to use you if you use USPS. Obviously, not everyone will share my opinions or experiences. And maybe it's a problem specific to Ireland??

    Apologies to everyone else for getting away from talking about photography!
  • presencepresence Big grins Posts: 54Registered Users Big grins
    edited November 3, 2007
    @fotoflot & smugmug
    I'm sorry for posting so much in a short space of time but when I get excited about a product...

    How do we smugmuggers integrate this into our site? Do either marketing dept have a suggestion? Will it be available in the SM shopping cart? Can fotoflot take our css and mimic our SM site over on their site?

    This is a potentially stupid idea but imagine pitching to a family with a new-born child...

    Fix 4 or 5 wall brackets to the stairwell (or hallway or kitchen). You can take photos of little johhny and update the photos every month/6months/yearly as little johnny grows up.
  • tommcatommca Big grins Posts: 34Registered Users Big grins
    edited November 4, 2007
    presence wrote:
    How do we smugmuggers integrate this into our site? Do either marketing dept have a suggestion? Will it be available in the SM shopping cart?
    presence, SmugMug and we had very brief discussions about this kind of possibility, and all agreed that the first step was to get out there on the partner page. Your support for moving in this direction is appreciated.
    This is a potentially stupid idea but imagine pitching to a family with a new-born child...

    Fix 4 or 5 wall brackets to the stairwell (or hallway or kitchen). You can take photos of little johhny and update the photos every month/6months/yearly as little johnny grows up.
    NOT a stupid idea! fotoflōt's magnetic mounting system was designed for exactly this type of application, and some customers have already set up "clusters" with this kind of use in mind.

    Tom
  • rich56krich56k Major grins SoCalPosts: 547Registered Users Major grins
    edited November 4, 2007
    Sizes available / aspect ratios....
    Tom,

    Sounds and looks like a great product.... thumb.gif

    How about more sizes in the 2:3 aspect ratio?

    specifically: 8x12", 12x18", 20x30", 24x36"

    Thanks,
    rich56k
    http://HooliganUnderground.com
    Member: ASMP; EP; NPPA; CPS
  • beacazilbeacazil Big grins Posts: 25Registered Users Big grins
    edited November 5, 2007
    rich56k wrote:
    How about more sizes in the 2:3 aspect ratio?

    specifically: 8x12", 12x18", 20x30", 24x36"

    fotoflōts are created in constant size panels and the individual products are "cut out" with a laser. The product sizes we have chosen optimize the use of material to a point that we have no unused areas on our panels. We are currently limited to product sizes up to 15x30, but hope to produce larger sizes in the near future.

    Having said that, we do have the two sizes in the 2:3 aspect ratio. They are 10x15 and 15x22.5. We have chosen those two as they are very similar to the more standard sizes of 8x12 and 12x18. Think about it this way. After matting and framing,
    • a traditional 8x12 is about the size of our 10x15 on the wall
    • a traditional 12x18 is about the size of our 15x22.5 on the wall
    Dedicating about the same wall space, you get more picture with fotoflōts.

    When we increase the maximum product size, we will add larger 2:3 aspect ratio products.
  • rich56krich56k Major grins SoCalPosts: 547Registered Users Major grins
    edited November 5, 2007
    Thanks for both the prompt response and explanation... thumb.gif

    When you put it that way (minus matting, etc) it makes a lot of sense! rolleyes1.gif

    I've used a lot the 'clipless' frames (Ikea style) - so I don't do much window matting any more - but between the obscure sizes Ikea offers and the weight of the glass - your product is looking even more practical, interesting and attractive....

    Will there be any quantity discounts?

    rich56k
    http://HooliganUnderground.com
    Member: ASMP; EP; NPPA; CPS
  • DalantechDalantech No cropping zone... Posts: 1,519Registered Users Major grins
    edited November 8, 2007
    beacazil wrote:
    When we increase the maximum product size, we will add larger 2:3 aspect ratio products.

    Excellent, and it looks like I'm not the only one around here who doesn't crop his images :cool

    Now if we could just get your product in our pro accounts so people can order our prints on a fotoflōts...
    My SmugMug Gallery

    Looking for tips on macro photography? Check out my Blog: No Cropping Zone.
  • peterst6906peterst6906 Expat Aussie Posts: 267Registered Users Major grins
    edited November 13, 2007
    Quick feedback on my first order
    Having placed my first order, I just want to say how good the service was and how good the print looks.

    I reprocessed my entry from LPS Round 14 and then ordered through the online system, picking the file directly from my Smugmug account.

    I received a confirmation pretty quickly from Jurgen and then a few days later, a message indicating that my order had been shipped. Due to the holiday weekend, it arrived 4 days later, this morning by USPS priority shipping.

    The outer packaging was nice and solid:

    221151776-O.jpg

    And while I was a little concerned with slipping a knife into the tape around the outer edge, I didn't need to worry. There is an inner box containing the photo and the wall mount:

    221151786-O.jpg

    The inner box opens up to reveal the print; which was wrapped in plastic:

    221151799-O.jpg

    And the print is just fantastic. This image doesn't do the real thing justice, but I am totally happy with the detail and clarity of the print:

    221151808-O.jpg

    The print is nice and light with a nice thin profile:

    221151815-O.jpg

    Definitely a product I'll be ordering more of and thanks to Jurgen and Tom. Great product and great service.

    Regards,

    Peter
    It's not my camera's fault, I'm just visually illiterate
  • NanaMoNanaMo always grinning Posts: 189Registered Users Major grins
    edited November 14, 2007
    Hi Andy,

    Well, not only did I check out FotoFlot....I got FotoFloted!!! I had my horse "Wandering" from #5 printed with this process and LOVE iloveyou.gif it.

    5 - Translucent or Silhouette - entries, finalists, judges critique #16 "Wandering"

    Had a few questions and they were so accomodating and prompt with a response. In fact, after I made the decision to try the process and uploaded my picture....Jurgen wrote back and told me how much he liked it!! wings.gif (Never hurts the ego.)

    So......if there is someone out there considering this treatment.....I would encourage you to try it thumb.gif.


    Maureen
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