Should I be upset?

urbanaries · December 11, 2007

I had a wedding in October that I sold at my old portfolio prices, and that package included a CD with high res images for free. Big huge mistake on my part.

In the contract it states the images are used for personal only, yet they have uploaded them to Shutterfly and instructed their friends and family to order pics from them. Their facebook profile clearly displays photos I took (which I agree is personal use) but then states "buy these pics at (URL) " and that link goes to Shutterfly. I do not use shutterfly; I use smugmug, and they have a perfectly operational gallery on my website, at my print prices, that of course no one will buy from now.

I have received numerous emails from the parents and relatives of this couple, praising my artistry, professionalism and vision. Yet, they don't seem to think I deserve to be paid for that? I am not wanting to burn bridges, however, I am tired of being taken advantage of by this couple.

Rhuarc · December 11, 2007

In a word...

YES!!!

If it were my I would contact the couple and kindly request that they remove the links to their Shutterfly account, and explain that you rely on people purchasing prints for income!

Travis · December 11, 2007

There are others here that are versed in handling situations such as this but I would think that as long as the couple does not try to profit from the images, then the personal use license applies regardless if they upload them to a share site. With that said, though, I would assume that Shutterfly is making some profit off of the photos. It may be a good idea to contact Shutterfly directly and request that sales of your copyrighted work should be stopped immediately. Most reputable labs will not print copyrighted work without the express written consent of the author.

As for handling the couple....well weigh what it is worth in short term dollars vs. long term prospects resulting from their referrals and/or negative comments. It is possible that they don't realize the situation in which they put you. Your work certainly speaks for itself on quality so the only thing that they would attack is personality. I think most clients would see through that. ~unless you really are a jerk and I'm mistaken

~

Just my 2 pennies...

urbanaries · December 11, 2007

Travis wrote:

There are others here that are versed in handling situations such as this but I would think that as long as the couple does not try to profit from the images, then the personal use license applies regardless if they upload them to a share site. With that said, though, I would assume that Shutterfly is making some profit off of the photos. It may be a good idea to contact Shutterfly directly and request that sales of your copyrighted work should be stopped immediately. Most reputable labs will not print copyrighted work without the express written consent of the author.

As for handling the couple....well weigh what it is worth in short term dollars vs. long term prospects resulting from their referrals and/or negative comments. It is possible that they don't realize the situation in which they put you. Your work certainly speaks for itself on quality so the only thing that they would attack is personality. I think most clients would see through that. ~unless you really are a jerk and I'm mistaken ~

Just my 2 pennies...

I had not thought of contacting Shutterfly!!!! That is a great option. Puts the ball in the proper court.

This client raves about my work, her mom writes me sonnets comparing my creative vision to that of long dead artists (a little weird) yet has nickel and dimes me and other vendors from her wedding to the hilt. And of course, they honeymooned in Italy so it's not like they were broke. She really is skilled at screwing people over to save a buck, under the guise of syrupy sweetness. I am frankly tired of being on the screwed end.

And I have you fooled, I can be a REAL jerk when I feel marginalized!

It is very upsetting when the wedding I'm MOST proud of in 2007 is the one I am least compensated or rewarded for.

Sam · December 11, 2007

I am going to weigh in on this. I have read numerous posts like this. Who is at fault here, the couple or Shutterfly? Nether! It’s your fault!!!

You are the businessperson, you set the contract, and you sold them the full res files. What the H*!! Do you think they are going to do with them? They are going to share THEIR photos. In their eyes, this is personal use!

Caveat: If they were selling them at your prices, or at a profit off Shutterfly, then I would say it’s definitely not personal use. They have the right to share and use the photos for their personal use, but selling them for a profit is not personal use. If this were the case I would have no problem calling them and explaining the difference between commercial, profit making use, and personal use.

I think making them available at cost to friends, and relatives is personal use. Even if the law is technically on your side you will be making a big mistake to call them on this.

Most good honest people don’t have a clue about copyrights, and will argue vehemently that once they have paid you they own the photos. It doesn’t matter that they are legally incorrect; they will not understand how photos of themselves, bought and paid for by them, don’t belong to them.

In this digital world you will not be able to stop the petty copyright violations that the honest people will unwittingly commit, or the people who knowingly commit them. You do however have full control before they get their hands on the photos.

Price your package, and service accordingly, and based on the real world.

Sam

urbanaries · December 11, 2007

Sam wrote:

I am going to weigh in on this. I have read numerous posts like this. Who is at fault here, the couple or Shutterfly? Nether! It’s your fault!!!

You are the businessperson, you set the contract, and you sold them the full res files. What the H*!! Do you think they are going to do with them? They are going to share THEIR photos. In their eyes, this is personal use!

Caveat: If they were selling them at your prices, or at a profit off Shutterfly, then I would say it’s definitely not personal use. They have the right to share and use the photos for their personal use, but selling them for a profit is not personal use. If this were the case I would have no problem calling them and explaining the difference between commercial, profit making use, and personal use.

I think making them available at cost to friends, and relatives is personal use. Even if the law is technically on your side you will be making a big mistake to call them on this.

Most good honest people don’t have a clue about copyrights, and will argue vehemently that once they have paid you they own the photos. It doesn’t matter that they are legally incorrect; they will not understand how photos of themselves, bought and paid for by them, don’t belong to them.

In this digital world you will not be able to stop the petty copyright violations that the honest people will unwittingly commit, or the people who knowingly commit them. You do however have full control before they get their hands on the photos.

Price your package, and service accordingly, and based on the real world.

Sam

You know what Sam, I think you have hit the nail on the head.

I have raised my prices dramatically since I sold their painfully cheap wedding package to them, which included digital negatives. I resent that (over a year after selling it to them) I invested way more time, effort and money than I was compensated for. Gross ignorance on my part.

If they had paid me what I charge today for a digital negative CD, I wouldn't give a hoot what they did with them. But right now, I feel like a schmuck, and it's my own doing.

I am sure if my prices were then what they are today, they would haven't hired me...they would have continued looking for another overeager, underpriced photographer.

The sad thing is that now that my prices are competitive, I am having a very tough time booking weddings. I'm not sure I'm really cut out for this business!

Thanks for the tough love, Sam.

DavidTO · December 11, 2007

I think Sam's offbase. You gave them the images for personal use. They broke that contract. Protecting your copyright is something you have to do no matter how much you charge.

cdonovan · December 11, 2007

I'd be upset too. I'm one who has included CD's in packages because when making up my packages, it seemed like the easiest thing to do. Instead going through the photos and having the client order the ones they want, I thought it would be worth the while to allow the clients to print as they want. I am finding though that more ofthen than not when the compliments flow like wine there is usually something behind the scenes. I guess I have learned to not trust people as much as I used to. That it's not only the a$$holes don't pay bills

This option is Sooo different depending on the situation, and is so frustrating, but the problem erupts time and time again when it involves people along the nature that you have described urb. Tonnes of money and it's like pulling teeth to get a penny from them.

It could be that they are totally ignorant to what priviledges they do actually have with the disk, even with waivers and releases and all that bs, people will still try to do as they please with them

I feel for you! Let us know how you make out with them

as an aside, I love your work, you have such a gift especially as it relates to weddings, you'd be top pick for me....that is if I could just get past the dating stage!!!

Sam · December 11, 2007

urbanaries wrote:

You know what Sam, I think you have hit the nail on the head.

I have raised my prices dramatically since I sold their painfully cheap wedding package to them, which included digital negatives. I resent that (over a year after selling it to them) I invested way more time, effort and money than I was compensated for. Gross ignorance on my part.

If they had paid me what I charge today for a digital negative CD, I wouldn't give a hoot what they did with them. But right now, I feel like a schmuck, and it's my own doing.

I am sure if my prices were then what they are today, they would haven't hired me...they would have continued looking for another overeager, underpriced photographer.

The sad thing is that now that my prices are competitive, I am having a very tough time booking weddings. I'm not sure I'm really cut out for this business!

Thanks for the tough love, Sam.

More tough love coming............................

Look at the big picture, this is a learning experience. Forget it! Move on. You are going to win some and lose some. In the scale of things this is very minuscule.

Being business for your self is difficult at best. Venting is OK, but don’t obsess. Once it’s done it’s done. Don’t get mad, it's all a game, learn move on.

What are you going to do when you quote a wedding and after the job think, wow that was much easier than I thought, went smooth as silk? Return a portion of what they paid you?

In business it’s not the precise penny you make on each separate job, but the average per job. Some will be better than others. If over time it averages out to where you are happy, then keep dong what your doing. If or when the average is not what you want, make adjustments.

If your work is good, and your not getting the booking you want, try and figure out why. Are you getting clients to call you for an initial quote, and consultation? If not then perhaps you should look at your advertising. If on the other hand you are making lots of presentations but not booking, you should look at your sales skills, or your style, and or packages offered.

Remember if it were easy everyone would be doing it.

Sam

Tommyboy · December 11, 2007

One question: Have you asked them to take them down?

Either way, I have to go with Sam on this one. People will do what you let them get away with. If you give them your images, of course they are going to use them to get cheaper photos.

You've learned a somewhat painful lesson that you never, ever have to repeat again. And in that respect, you got off cheap.

And good for you for taking an open, honest assessment of your situation and realizing who was culpable for what, if you don't mind me saying so.

urbanaries · December 11, 2007

Tommyboy wrote:

One question: Have you asked them to take them down?

No, I wanted to get some honest feedback before hammering out an email I regretted later

Sam wrote:

Remember if it were easy everyone would be doing it.

Sam

Uh, Sam, everyone IS doing it, that's why it's so tough to make a living at it!!!

Sam · December 11, 2007

DavidTO wrote:

I think Sam's offbase. You gave them the images for personal use. They broke that contract. Protecting your copyright is something you have to do no matter how much you charge.

Which is your prerogative.
But my point is that in today’s world you can’t stop all the minor copyright violations!!! NOT possible. Whether they don’t understand them and innocently violate your copyright, or deliberately violate your copyright.

Sure if your image ends up on the front page of a national wedding magazine I agree with you, but for making thank you notes, scanning, and or printing out photos for friends. You cannot realistically stop this. You can’t hire an attorney; even small claims would be too much. So what do you propose? Make the client very unhappy? What will that accomplish?

We need to develop a strategy that provides the income we want for the job done, and control access to the images until that happens. Then they can do what they would have done anyway, but we get paid, and they get to use the images the way they want. (New concept, we are happy; the client is happy; who knew?)

The buggy whip factory has closed, and no one is buying buggy whips.

Sam

DavidTO · December 11, 2007

I think having the images pulled from Shutterfly is an entirely reasonable solution. If the client gets upset that you're protecting your copyright, then so be it.

To say that since you can't control every instance of it, therefore you shouldn't enforce it doesn't make any sense to me.

Yes, it's a lesson to be learned. In the meantime, have those images taken down!

Icebear · December 11, 2007

When you explained your services to your clients, did you stress the fantastic gallery you were going to put up for their use in SmugMug? I'm wondering why they went to all the trouble of uploading to Shutterfly. Was it really just to save their friends $$$, or was it because you didn't stress that they should provide the SmugMug link to their friends? Maybe they didn't know they could do that.?.?.

I haven't done weddings, so my experience is really different, but in my architectural photography business, my letter of agreement, and my invoice both refer to "non-exclusive, non-transferable license for your own use." I also insert "unlimited" or "one-time" depending on whether I'm licensing to an architect or designer (unlimited), or a publication (one-time). The letter of agreement has prevented misunderstandings on several occasions.

I'm just curious. Is there really a lot of $$$ in the "residual" sales?

urbanaries · December 11, 2007

I went to great lengths to promote and customize their smugmug gallery. It is there, it is easy to remember (custom link using their name, I even printed up business cards with the URL to put at placesettings) they and their friends just don't like to pay for things.

I agree with Sam that minor copyright violations are difficult to prosecute and may cause more bad blood than it's really worth.

I agree with David on the principle, but in real life, people don't like being called out, so if you're going to do it, make sure it's really worth the bitter taste you will leave in your wake.

Icebear: in this instance I had already lost a LOT of money doing this wedding. It would have been nice to recoup some of that loss. The wedding I did one week before theirs? They were furnished a personal use CD as well, and yet their guests have purchased $220 in prints, still counting.

Tango · December 11, 2007

in the end you still have your favorite wedding portfolio of 2007 to use and to attract more business.
IMHO
let it go. You never know, maybe you may get 10 fold in return from a wealthy families good word about you.

Icebear · December 11, 2007

Wow! Who knew . ? . ?

urbanaries wrote:

I went to great lengths to promote and customize their smugmug gallery. It is there, it is easy to remember (custom link using their name, I even printed up business cards with the URL to put at placesettings) they and their friends just don't like to pay for things.

Icebear: in this instance I had already lost a LOT of money doing this wedding. It would have been nice to recoup some of that loss. The wedding I did one week before theirs? They were furnished a "free" CD as well, and yet their guests have purchased $220 in prints, still counting.

Well then. They're just shits. (Sorry moderator. Sanitize to your heart's content.)

Sam · December 11, 2007

urbanaries wrote:

No, I wanted to get some honest feedback before hammering out an email I regretted later

Uh, Sam, everyone IS doing it, that's why it's so tough to make a living at it!!!

Lynn,

Yes many are doing it. BUT NOT WITH YOUR SKILL!

I could show up at a wedding with a very nice camera. Big camera bag with lots of equipment. Take some clear, semi clear, fuzzy colorful photos.

Do you want to hire me for a wedding? That would be a very bad move! I don't have the skill set for wedding photography!!!

You do..................sell it like you believe it.

The hardest thing, I think, is to sell your self. Try and separate your self from the equation. Look at your last wedding. How are the results? The album? The printed images you provided. All the images you captured? How are your people skills at the wedding? Are you proud of your work?

Sell as though you aren’t in the equation. Present your portfolio, and sample albums as though some third party did the work (PLEASE don’t speak in the third party though, this is just a mental trick for yourself).

To some extent sales is a game and contest between you and the client. Many times the clients want you to help them decide. I am assuming that this is tempered with good intentions, and ethics.

In order for your client to believe in you, you must believe in you.

Sam

Tango · December 11, 2007

.;-)

Sam · December 11, 2007

Icebear: in this instance I had already lost a LOT of money doing this wedding. It would have been nice to recoup some of that loss. The wedding I did one week before theirs? They were furnished a personal use CD as well, and yet their guests have purchased $220 in prints, still counting.

Lynn,

I would be very seriously interested in how you lost money doing this wedding.

Also with regard to the other wedding and the $220 in print sales. How much does that mean in your pocket? I am wondering if your looking a hundred or two as the difference between being happy or not why you couldn’t sell the wedding package for a hundred or two more upfront, and eliminate the concern with print sales.

Most people today have digital cameras, and know what it costs to have prints made. I believe they are, would be willing, to pay up front for the experience, and expertise of a quality photographer, but balk at print prices far above what it has cost them for their own prints.

Sam

Tango · December 11, 2007

Sam wrote:

Icebear: in this instance I had already lost a LOT of money doing this wedding. It would have been nice to recoup some of that loss. The wedding I did one week before theirs? They were furnished a personal use CD as well, and yet their guests have purchased $220 in prints, still counting.

Lynn,

I would be very seriously interested in how you lost money doing this wedding.

Also with regard to the other wedding and the $220 in print sales. How much does that mean in your pocket? I am wondering if your looking a hundred or two as the difference between being happy or not why you couldn’t sell the wedding package for a hundred or two more upfront, and eliminate the concern with print sales.

Most people today have digital cameras, and know what it costs to have prints made. I believe they are, would be willing, to pay up front for the experience, and expertise of a quality photographer, but balk at print prices far above what it has cost them for their own prints.

Sam

i agree 100% good advice!
a lot of the local photog here dont offer anything but the cd....
but let me add to it with what i have done.
in my physical portfolio i have several comparison print of the same image to show clients what they get going through me/ezprints,
or taking the cd to costco and make their own prints...usual reaction is

"OH MY"

ChatKat · December 12, 2007

Suggested Letter
Dear Client:

I really appreciate that you have loved my work so much as to share it with your loved ones and friends. The work that I did for your wedding is something I am very proud of. A great deal of time went into me having prepared your online gallery so that you would be able to share the images with friends and family.

As a matter of fact, a portion of income for photographers (inlcuding me!) comes from selling the prints from our work. In the package I put together for your wedding, I included high resolution files for strictly for your personal use. That means, for you and no one else. That is so you can view them on your computer or you are free to take my DVD of images to any lab to print but only for your own use.

My lab shows my work at it's best because I instruct them on the best papers and inks to use for my images, which is why I prefer to have my clients use the lab through my website. I want these photos to be the best they can be and something for all of us to be proud of.

It has come to my attention that the images are available on Shutterfly.com. I am sure there may have been some confusion as to the definition of Personal Use so I want to clarify that for you. I would appreciate your removal of the images from Shutterfly.com I am happy to further explain how copyrights work. That would consititute copyright infringement and our agreement for personal use.

Please let me know if I can answer any additional questions about use of the images. I hope you are both well and settling into married life by now. Please fell free to call me if I can answer any questions for you.

Thank you,

Lynn

DavidTO · December 12, 2007

ChatKat wrote:

Dear Client:

Sam · December 12, 2007

ChatKat wrote:

Dear Client:

I really appreciate that you have loved my work so much as to share it with your loved ones and friends. The work that I did for your wedding is something I am very proud of. A great deal of time went into me having prepared your online gallery so that you would be able to share the images with friends and family.

As a matter of fact, a portion of income for photographers (inlcuding me!) comes from selling the prints from our work. In the package I put together for your wedding, I included high resolution files for strictly for your personal use. That means, for you and no one else. That is so you can view them on your computer or you are free to take my DVD of images to any lab to print but only for your own use.

My lab shows my work at it's best because I instruct them on the best papers and inks to use for my images, which is why I prefer to have my clients use the lab through my website. I want these photos to be the best they can be and something for all of us to be proud of.

It has come to my attention that the images are available on Shutterfly.com. I am sure there may have been some confusion as to the definition of Personal Use so I want to clarify that for you. I would appreciate your removal of the images from Shutterfly.com I am happy to further explain how copyrights work. That would consititute copyright infringement and our agreement for personal use.

Please let me know if I can answer any additional questions about use of the images. I hope you are both well and settling into married life by now. Please fell free to call me if I can answer any questions for you.

Thank you,

Lynn

Dear Lynn,

Thank you for your e-mail. Yes we love your work, and I although I know where your web site is many of my friends, and family are not what you would call computer literate, but they do know how to find my site. Hence I put them up so they to can see them.

As far as your income, I thought the thousands of dollars we paid was pretty good, and it did include the high resolution files you promised us. I didn’t hear anything about detailed definitions of personal use. I put my photos, that I paid thousands of dollars for on my web site for my personal benefit.

I called lab after lab, and asked if I could specify the ink, or paper used, and many said they didn’t use ink, and those that did use ink said customers couldn’t specify the type of ink used. Apparently each brand of printer uses a special ink for that printer. Although I couldn’t always specify the type paper, many did have a few choices. So you must indeed have a very special pro lab somewhere that will allow to specify both the paper, which could involve 20 or 30 different brands, and hundreds of different types paper, along with whatever ink, compatible with their printers or not, you wanted.

All I wanted to do was share my photos with my friends. I didn’t want to get involved with all this. I did however read up on copyrights, after your upsetting e-mail, and have determined I have not violated your copyright in any way. I have simply used the photos for my own use.

If your worried about lost photo sales, I will inform you that there were 32 4X6 ordered off my site at $0.19 each, so if you would like to pursue this for $6.08 go for it.

Oh, and just to keep you abreast of the latest happening 3 of the bridesmaids have changed their minds about hiring you.

Your photos are fantastic, and hopefully after a few years we will be able to look at our album without the bad taste your e-mail has left.

Client

ChatKat · December 12, 2007

My contract defines Personal Use
My contract specifies the definition of personal use so for me that letter would be very clear...only prints for the B&G....and only use of the images on their blog - any one else needs to ordder via my Smugmug website.

urbanaries · December 12, 2007

I really appreciate everyone weighing in on this.

This is a polarizing issue among photographers and I expected to get a wide range of responses, to help me sift through my own feelings.

I revisited the original contract and the copyright info was pretty vague. My new contracts, after attending Shay's WPBC, are MUCH more specific and beneficial to me.

FWIW, the bride and groom paid less than one thousand dollars for 12 hours of my shooting time day of wedding (plus rehearsal, plus editing, plus consultations), 8 hours of my assistant's time, and 300 edited, high resolution files.

I have decided to let the issue go at the present time and chalk it up to learning experience. I was ignorant, eager and willing to sell my soul for a booking when I booked them. In the time that passed, I improved a great deal in my technique and business sense, so I am bitter and resentful at myself for selling myself so short. But them's the breaks!

And as someone pointed out, I did book the wedding knowing it would be at a loss, but also knowing that it would be a gem in my portfolio. And it really is, so I have to at least pat myself on the back for making the most of the photo op, even if it was underpaid.

DavidTO · December 12, 2007

Wow, Sam. You're a piece of work.

Lynne, glad you found your way through it.

urbanaries · December 12, 2007

Interestingly, this is the bride from this thread (she's mentioned from post #10 on).

Shay is a psychic!!!!!!

LiquidAir · December 12, 2007

Were I in your shoes, I'd be upset but not surprised. I generally don't sell digital originals because I expect people to print them (even if I tell them not to) and I think Wallmart quality prints of my photos reflect poorly on my craftsmanship.

If you decide you do need to sell digital originals (and I certainly know that pressure), sell them witht the idea that the price of the original will be the only revenue you will get from that image. As an example, figure out your margin on 1 16x20 and 2 8x10s and use that as the price for each digital file (personally if I get that much return from an image, I am happy, but your experience may be different).

Icebear · December 12, 2007

Refer to post #17
You had her pegged from the start didn't you.

Sam · December 12, 2007

urbanaries wrote:

I really appreciate everyone weighing in on this.

This is a polarizing issue among photographers and I expected to get a wide range of responses, to help me sift through my own feelings.

I revisited the original contract and the copyright info was pretty vague. My new contracts, after attending Shay's WPBC, are MUCH more specific and beneficial to me.

FWIW, the bride and groom paid less than one thousand dollars for 12 hours of my shooting time day of wedding (plus rehearsal, plus editing, plus consultations), 8 hours of my assistant's time, and 300 edited, high resolution files.

I have decided to let the issue go at the present time and chalk it up to learning experience. I was ignorant, eager and willing to sell my soul for a booking when I booked them. In the time that passed, I improved a great deal in my technique and business sense, so I am bitter and resentful at myself for selling myself so short. But them's the breaks!

And as someone pointed out, I did book the wedding knowing it would be at a loss, but also knowing that it would be a gem in my portfolio. And it really is, so I have to at least pat myself on the back for making the most of the photo op, even if it was underpaid.

Lynn,

You didn't do the job at a loss, and you may not have been underpaid.

There is great power, and value in knowledge. You know in your heart you can produce great results, (you have the portfolio), and you know down to your toes your worth more than you charged on this job. You have modified your contract.

How much would you have paid to learn this?

People spend tens of thousands of dollars to attend fine universities to learn. Just because you have taken a different learning route doesn't mean it will be cost free.

In the end it sounds like you are better now than before.

I bet the next job is not only better, but more financially rewarding as well.

Sam

Should I be upset?

Comments