BB: Help - What am I doing wrong?

MDalby · December 19, 2008

Guys, I am an admitted rookie at photography. I am just snapping a lot of pictures and hoping some of them stick.

I am not happy with hte quality. More photos than I would like are out of focus.

I am pretty happy with this first photo but the second appears to be out of focus and noit have the clarity that I would like.

Here is the complete gallery:

http://dalbyphoto.smugmug.com/gallery/6867152_AZ6jL#439287252_xrHN2

Any help is appreciated.

MD

clemensphoto's · December 19, 2008

What kind of equipment are you using?

Harryb · December 19, 2008

We will need some additional info such as the exif data for the images. I'm assuming that you took those with your D300. If so what are your in-camera AF settings?

johng · December 19, 2008

The second photo is simply too loosely framed. Even with the best equipment it will be tough to keep that shot in focus.

Here's a simple guideline to follow - when shooting low light in portrait orientation make sure your subject is filling 3/4 of the vertical frame. The second shot is filling maybe 10% of the vertical frame.

Regardless of your gear if you start applying that guideline you'll have less focus issues. It's tougher because it requires better tracking on your part to keep the subject in the frame. Additionally you'll find that the quality and detail are far superior to loosely framed shots that you crop - even if those shots had good focus.

KMCC · December 19, 2008

I looked at several of the photos on your web site. It appears that you're shooting in aperture priority (Av) mode, f/2.8, at ISO 2000.

Most of the time it looks like you're getting more than enough shutter speed (1/400 or faster). I did see one that was at 1/250 which is a bit slow. There seems to be plenty of light in the gymnasium.

It appears that shot #2 above is focused on the fans sitting in the bleachers. How many autofocus points are you using? What is the lens that are you shooting with?

MDalby · December 19, 2008

Guys, I really appreciate the advice. I am a real rookie at this stuff so I am not sure if I can answer all of your questions to the detail that you are needing.

My equipment is the Nikon D300, Nikon 70-200mm f/2.8D VR Lens

I have been using the middle crosshair setting for the AF sensor. I tried the gig white rectangle mode but it was too slow for my action shots. I also have the Focus Mode Selector set to Single.

MDalby · December 19, 2008

John,

I agree on the subject taking up more of the frame. So, in basketball, do you guys just focus on one end of the court. get offensive plays one half and defensive plays the last half?

Thanks for helping out a rook.

MDalby · December 19, 2008

I just found this link for Nikon D300 users for settings.

Do you guys agree with these settings?

http://sportsphotoguy.com/camera-settings-basketball-d300/

MDalby · December 19, 2008

What do you guys think of hte battery grip? Should this be on my Christmas list from my wife?

KMCC · December 19, 2008

MDalby wrote:

John,

I agree on the subject taking up more of the frame. So, in basketball, do you guys just focus on one end of the court. get offensive plays one half and defensive plays the last half?

Thanks for helping out a rook.

I use two bodies when I shoot basketball. One with a 70-200mm f/2.8 for shots in the back court (from where I'm sitting on the baseline), and one with a 85mm f/1.8 for shots in the front court.

I shoot everything in Manual (M) mode; typically 1/320 shutter speed, ISO 1600/3200 (depending on lighting in the gym), and f/2.8 on the 70-200 - f/2.2 on the 85.

If I'm shooting one team in particular, I change ends at the half so that I'm always shooting them on offense. If I'm not focusing on one team, I shoot the entire game from one baseline in order to get both teams playing offense and defense.

Re: grips - basketball is basically a "vertical" game. Doing the chicken-wing in order to get to the shutter button can get old real fast. Grips are great!

Harryb · December 19, 2008

MDalby wrote:

I just found this link for Nikon D300 users for settings.

Do you guys agree with these settings?

http://sportsphotoguy.com/camera-settings-basketball-d300/

Nope, I would suggest Aperture Priority mode as I find it faster than manual.

For the AF settings I use the following

a1 - AF-C Priority selection - Release - I prefer that to focus mainly because of speed. Using focus as the setting builds in some shutter lag to your captures.

a2 - AF-S - Since speed here isn't important I have it seed to Focus.

a3 - Dynamic AF Area - For basketball I would go with 9 points unless you are trying to focus on mor ethan an individual palyer.

a4 -Focus Tracking with Lock On - I use Normal

a5 - AF Activation - I use Shutter/AF on but many others prefer the AF On only option where the AF is activated by pushing the AE-L/AF-ON button.

a8 - AF Point Selection - I use 11, once again I find this setting faster.

I would also set the shooting mode to Continuous/Low

MDalby · December 19, 2008

Harry,

Thank you

MDalby · December 19, 2008

Kent,

Do you do any changes in the Picture Control Setting?

Do you change the sharpening and saturation at all? I currently have mine set to Sharpening +6 and Sat +2.

johng · December 20, 2008

Harryb wrote:

Nope, I would suggest Aperture Priority mode as I find it faster than manual.

Harry - what do you mean by 'faster'? Faster to set up or faster shutter speeds or what?

Personally I prefer manual exposure and here's why. Very often one team has white jerseys and one team dark. With the camera in AV mode, you can easily see a 1- 1 1/2 stop swing in exposures based upon the makeup of white / dark jerseys in your frame - especially when framing tightly so the jersey is really driving your metering (unless you use spot metering and meter on the face which is tricky). But the trouble is you don't want to expose for jerseys you want to expose for faces. Whether a person has a white or dark blue jersey on the right exposure for their face doesn't change. I've found shooting manual mode really reduces post processing workflow quite a bit. Lighting inside the arc is pretty consistent in most gyms it gets a little darker right under the basket if the head isn't up but that's a minority of shots - usually the head is up and thus catching light.

Everyone is different. To the OP, give both a try but for me manual gives me much more stable results.

KMCC · December 20, 2008

MDalby wrote:

Kent,

Do you do any changes in the Picture Control Setting?

Do you change the sharpening and saturation at all? I currently have mine set to Sharpening +6 and Sat +2.

No. Any adjustments of that nature I do when I post-process the photographs. And then I only crop, use USM to sharpen, tweak levels, and sometimes adjust color due to the vagaries of gym lighting.

Any time I shoot over ISO 800, I first run all of the files through either Noise Ninja or Noiseware (depending on which computer I'm using to process the shots).

Note: my reason for shooting sports in Manual mode is exactly the same as stated by JohnG. Using Av will allow the camera to fool itself regarding proper exposure as it tries to properly interprete light vs dark jerseys. I use manual and then check the histogram occasionally to make sure the exposure is where I want it to be.

Harryb · December 20, 2008

johng wrote:

Harry - what do you mean by 'faster'? Faster to set up or faster shutter speeds or what?

Personally I prefer manual exposure and here's why. Very often one team has white jerseys and one team dark. With the camera in AV mode, you can easily see a 1- 1 1/2 stop swing in exposures based upon the makeup of white / dark jerseys in your frame - especially when framing tightly so the jersey is really driving your metering (unless you use spot metering and meter on the face which is tricky). But the trouble is you don't want to expose for jerseys you want to expose for faces. Whether a person has a white or dark blue jersey on the right exposure for their face doesn't change. I've found shooting manual mode really reduces post processing workflow quite a bit. Lighting inside the arc is pretty consistent in most gyms it gets a little darker right under the basket if the head isn't up but that's a minority of shots - usually the head is up and thus catching light.

Everyone is different. To the OP, give both a try but for me manual gives me much more stable results.

I have taken a few workshops with pros who recommended using aperture priority. I followed their advice and it has worked well for me over the years. Metering problems are easily handled with EV adjustments. The D300 can be set up for easy metering adjustments where you can just turn the rear wheel to adjust the exposure (your eye never leaves the viewfinder).

Shooting wildlife in Florida, I'm constantly dealing with difficult metering situations and shooting aperture priority with EV adjustments has been the most effective method I've tried.

After a while the ev adjustments become second nature and your eye can look at a scene and determine the necessary EV adj.

nipprdog · December 20, 2008

Harryb wrote:

I have taken a few workshops with pros who recommended using aperture priority. I followed their advice and it has worked well for me over the years. Metering problems are easily handled with EV adjustments. The D300 can be set up for easy metering adjustments where you can just turn the rear wheel to adjust the exposure (your eye never leaves the viewfinder).

Shooting wildlife in Florida, I'm constantly dealing with difficult metering situations and shooting aperture priority with EV adjustments has been the most effective method I've tried.

After a while the ev adjustments become second nature and your eye can look at a scene and determine the necessary EV adj.

Agreed. Many, if not most, of us here shoot in AP when we're outdoors. But we're talking indoor sports.

Like John, I shoot manual indoors.

Dbl · December 20, 2008

I am a bit confused on how Av is faster than manual? What is faster? Indoors manual is the preferable way to go. Johng explained it well, if you want consistent results it is much easier to use manual. I fail to see how changing EC would be easier than setting the camera and concentrating on action.

I don't know how you could recognize when to change EC fast enough as a player moves down court. A good example are the lighted scorers table that many gyms have. As the player moves by the lighted table in Av you will suddenly have a very underexposed player until they move past the table. In manual you have set your exposure for correct face exposure, as the player moves past the lighted table the subjects exposure remains the same, the table will be blow out but that doesn't really matter.

In the end we are all free to shoot in a manner that works best for us. I happen to think as do the majority of folks shooting sports that when shooting indoors manual is your best option.

SportsPhotoGuy · December 21, 2008

Like others have said...
There's a reason for preferring manual over other metering modes for arena lighting - having nothing to do with being "faster" (whatever that means) but arenas are chock-full of things that can throw your meter off. Dark/light jerseys are one, but more serious are low-hanging arena lights (esp in basketball where under the basket you are usually shooting up from the floor) and those annoying lighted advertising panels that line the court in many arenas. :ivar
As for focus issues...could be several things. First, set AF-C priority to FOCUS if you're getting out-of-focus shots. Release-priority is faster this time, but of course speed is useless if your shots are OOF. Focus area selection is a bit tricky; a lot depends on how tight you are framing your intended subject. For shots like the OP's second, 9 points is probably the way to go. But most important is your own AF tracking, and this simply comes with experience. Make sure your selected AF sensor is aligned with your subject when you first acquire focus, and keep it there. This is especially critical for that first fraction of a second as your camera acquires focus.
Finally, for anyone concerned with going FASTER, setting your shooting speed to Continuous-Low doesn't make a lot of sense. Unless you have a specific reason (such as when shooting with strobe to allow for recycle time), blast away as fast as you can.

KMCC · December 21, 2008

SportsPhotoGuy wrote:

Season's Greetings and welcome to Digital Grin.

jonh68 · December 21, 2008

Under lights or inside, I have found it best to shoot manual. Outside, it's a different story.

MDalby · December 22, 2008

Guys, I am sorry for the VERY basic questions that I have. I think I am going to find some training classes for me under the Christmas tree. Right now, I am just learning as I go at this.

I really appreciate your help.

Can you help me understand a couple of things? How do I determine the optimal ISO in the particular conditions? How do I determine 1600 or 2000? Do i just take a couple of shots and see if it is blurred or grainy? I don't seem to be very good at recognizing issues on my viewfinder. Things seem to be fine and then when I get it on my laptop and the issues are much more apparent.

I puchased Noise Ninja but I must be doing something wrong. When I put photos through Ninja, the shots lose the details. Do you have a set noise reduction that you put all of your files through on Ninja or is it unique for each and every shoot?

Thanks,

MD

jonh68 · December 22, 2008

What I do is look at the LCD and see if it looks underexposed or overexposed. Then, I look at the histogram and make sure peaks are near the center of the graph.

If you want to check your noise levels, you can blow up the image in the LCD some.

Optimal noise is a tricky question. It depends on your ss and aperture desired and the tradeoffs. The higher ISO, the higher SS. It also depends on your camera threshold for delivering noise at high ISO and how much you tolerate it.

For indoor sports, I set my SS to around 1/320 and A wide open. Then adjust the ISO from there to get that mark. If it can't, then it's a matter of going down to 1/250 ss. If I find the camera can easily make 1/320ss then I increase ss or even aperture. There isn't a one setting fits all, just start with 1/250 or 1/320 and adjust from there.

Looking at your camera equipment, I suggest you use the 50 1.4 for some of your shots and see if using a fixed lens will force you into taking shots without having to worry about your focal length. You will have to get close to the action, but I have found many errors by beginners can be attributed to using a zoom and pulling back and forth.

Also, the D300 smooths out detail the higher the ISO. Check to see if you have NR applied and how aggressive it is. To make ISO selection simpler, select auto ISO and make your threshold 1600. I don't like the D300 performance past 1600. Also, if the gym allows flash, use your Sb-800 and bounce the light of the ceilings or backwall. To keep things simple for the moment, put the flash in TTL mode.

Now, my best recommendation is to sell the D300 and buy a D700. Much simpler to use as noise and high ISO problems go away.

MDalby · December 22, 2008

jonh68 wrote:

Now, my best recommendation is to sell the D300 and buy a D700. Much simpler to use as noise and high ISO problems go away.

John,

Thank you for the replies to this thread. This is a great help.

I understand the advantages of hte D700, however, the advantages do not compensate for the loss of my wife if I did invest that much more into this hobby.

MD

johng · December 22, 2008

MDalby wrote:

Can you help me understand a couple of things? How do I determine the optimal ISO in the particular conditions? How do I determine 1600 or 2000? Do i just take a couple of shots and see if it is blurred or grainy? I don't seem to be very good at recognizing issues on my viewfinder. Things seem to be fine and then when I get it on my laptop and the issues are much more apparent.

I puchased Noise Ninja but I must be doing something wrong. When I put photos through Ninja, the shots lose the details. Do you have a set noise reduction that you put all of your files through on Ninja or is it unique for each and every shoot?

Thanks,

MD

First off the D300 should be fine up to ISO 3200. What ISO to use depends on the shutter speed you need. I find 1/400 to be the very minimum I will go to. 1/640 is great if you can get it but that's tough to get.

The key to noise performance is proper exposure. Several people have talked about how things in the frame can fool the camera's metering - lights, jerseys, etc. You want to expose for faces not jerseys. Usually in H gyms I'm shooting around F2.8 1/400 and ISO 3200. The histogram is typically pushed slightly to the right but the faces are properly exposed. Left to it's own devices the camera would often expose a full stop below that - leading to more shadows which leads to more noise.

So next time out try dialing in those settings - then take some test shots during warmups - at most 1/2 body shots - the more of the face in the frame the better. Then judge by how the face looks in the LCD. Does it look properly exposed or a little dark? It should NOT look dark at all. The histogram is secondary for me. If it's shifted to the left it's a clue I'm probably under exposed. When my faces are properly exposed the histogram is centered or to the right.

As for noise reduction you'll want to tone it down. I use NOiseware not ninja but they both allow you to change all the parameters. I usually start about 35% color and luminence reduction and increase slightly until it looks good. play around with the values - the key is to remove just enough to make the image good - a little bit of noise isn't bad - when you remove too much you lose detail and texture.

When you shoot with manual exposure in a gym the lighting is usually consistent - might be really poor but it's consistently poor. With manual exposure if you got the exposure right then your noise profiles on all your shots will be similar. Get the exposure right, then do the above 'tweaking' in ninja to find the right amount of reduction and you save those values. Then whenever you can process the images.
For me, I have settings for ISO 1600, 2000, 3200 and 6400 saved in noiseware. Because I know my exposures are correct for faces regardless of the sport I simply batch process all my shots based upon the ISO setting I used.

crockett · December 23, 2008

I do it exactly as johng just described and I think it is the reply you should read and follow for now. Once, you get it down you can make your own personal adjustments.

I also want to emphasize that keeping your SS fast is a BIG key. I too find 1/320 just too slow and would much rather be at 1/500 and 1/640. On my current camera if I'm at 3200 I'll settle for 1/400 but that's as low as I go.

Manual all the way, indoors and even outdoors if the light isn't changing. You take enough frames and you'll see why it makes a big difference. Lots of reasons.

MDalby · December 24, 2008

JonH68, JohnG, Crockett... All of you. Thank you for spending the time to educate a rookie like me. I cannot wait for hte next game to try all of these things out. I hope the next games shots will not be a total waste with me changing things around so much trying new things.

Thanks again!

MDalby · December 24, 2008

All,

If I do shoot with my Nikon 70-200mm f/2.8D VR lens, should I turn off the VR?

jonh68 · December 24, 2008

MDalby wrote:

All,

If I do shoot with my Nikon 70-200mm f/2.8D VR lens, should I turn off the VR?

You can try it on or off, but the general consensus is off as ss is fast anyway for sports and VR will actually hinder AF as it takes time to kick in when it focuses.

attorneyjay · December 24, 2008

Have you considered alternating your shooting location each quarter (i.e., moving to opposite end of court) just to give some variety in your angle and background? This way, you still get all offense but the scenery changes more often.

Jay

MDalby · December 25, 2008

attorneyjay wrote:

Have you considered alternating your shooting location each quarter (i.e., moving to opposite end of court) just to give some variety in your angle and background? This way, you still get all offense but the scenery changes more often.

Jay

Jay,

I have been changng sides of the court at half so I am on the offensive end throughout the game. My porblem is that I have been trying to give emphasis to both offense and defense so I have shots that are not very tight when I try to shoot the D side. I thyink I will just emphasize the O side and get really tight shots now.

MD

BB: Help - What am I doing wrong?

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