Sharp Shooters Forensics - What do you think?

Greensquared

OK all, I've had another idea to push the Challenges even further and eventually build the tutorial archives of Dgrin.

I'd really like to post an "after the fact" tutorial. I'll pick one subject, typically very basic stuff, and use your shots from the previous round as good and not-so-good examples of each. Things covered would be along the lines of:

Rule of thirds
Contrast
Focal Point
Bokeh
Fill flash
Natural light

I have a full list of topics, but would select something after viewing the images of each round that I feel would be particularly appropriate. I would PM you first to get permission to use your image for this purpose, but you would have to have a tough skin and desire to help others learn if I choose one of your images as the "not-so-good" example.

These tutorials would be hopefully be rewritten in a more generic format (not Challenge specific) and would be placed in the Dgrin Tutorials for the benefit of all.

Unlike like Nikolai's Weekly Assignments, (which I highly recommend, especially if you are intimidated by other areas of Dgrin), these would be a dissection of a few images after the fact, and may very well have nothing to do with the theme that was set.

What do you all think? :ear

Nikolai

Emily,
I think it's a great idea, my only concern is your time... Do you, like, sleep at all?

Art Scott

Nikolai wrote:

Emily,
I think it's a great idea, my only concern is your time... Do you, like, sleep at all?

She is probably buying ROCKSTAR by the car load and Ma Huang by the ton

Emily... great ideathumbbowthumbbow

Greensquared

Art Scott wrote:

She is probably buying ROCKSTAR by the car load and Ma Huang by the ton

Emily... great ideathumbbowthumbbow

I know not what these are...please tell me more!!!!

richtersl

...Ma Huang is also known as Ephedra. It's an herb that's used to give you more energy. OK, it's a stimulant.

Nikolai

Greensquared wrote:

I know not what these are...please tell me more!!!!

Yeahright...

richtersl

Greensquared wrote:

I'd really like to post an "after the fact" tutorial. I'll pick one subject, typically very basic stuff, and use your shots from the previous round as good and not-so-good examples of each...

How do you plan on presenting the "not-so-good" examples? That could get tricky and cause some bad feelings.

Nikolai

richtersl wrote:

How do you plan on presenting the "not-so-good" examples? That could get tricky and cause some bad feelings.

That's easy. Take any of mine and go have a ball...

fashiznitsngrins

I can only speak for myself, but I certainly would not have a problem with you using any of mine for examples as I am sure you would be tackful about your comments and not just rip an image apart for the sake of it. I think this is the best way to learn as it helps us get into the minds of *what were the judges thinking* and *why didn't that one make the cut* and will help us compose images better before we even start shooting. Just my 2 cents worth.

Greensquared

richtersl wrote:

How do you plan on presenting the "not-so-good" examples? That could get tricky and cause some bad feelings.

fashiznitsngrins wrote:

I can only speak for myself, but I certainly would not have a problem with you using any of mine for examples as I am sure you would be tackful about your comments and not just rip an image apart for the sake of it. I think this is the best way to learn as it helps us get into the minds of *what were the judges thinking* and *why didn't that one make the cut* and will help us compose images better before we even start shooting. Just my 2 cents worth.

Yes, I would certainly do my best to be tactful and pointed. And, what I would really like is if those particular photogs might be able to reshoot/rework the image and post the improved version. This is not meant to embarass anyone, but to help everyone to grow. And since I would be PMing them first, it would not be without their permission.

Greensquared

Nikolai wrote:

Emily,
I think it's a great idea, my only concern is your time... Do you, like, sleep at all?

Hmmm, well, yes, I do sleep. At the moment, the biggest time drain is the full feedback, but I want to keep doing that. It just may be several days before I get it posted. Also, I should have my system for doing stuff streamlined soon. I was planning on just writing some basic tutorials and trying to take example images myself, but I thought this would be a much more fun way to do it (and less work for me).

I am very blessed to now be a stay-at-home mom who is homeschooling and have a few side jobs. I do have an extremely full life, but this is a passion of mine. And I need adult interaction time. For as long as I have the energy for it, I plan to give to this community as much as I can, as I feel it has brought me so far. In October I have another project coming up which will take more of my time (nursery supervisor for our church). This is another reason why I can't do the Sunday midnight thread close thing. Really, can you imagine running a nursery full of crying babies and hyper toddlers, come home and do a full family dinner (which is my Sunday tradition), and then stay up until midnight for this...then to have to be up raring to go for my kids on Monday? I think not.

Okay, well that was probably way more personal information than anyone is interested in, but you asked a personal question that caused me to seriously contemplate my commitments. :giggle

davev

I think this would be better set in the techniques or finishing school areas.

Plus, I think you could be swaying people into processing to your tastes, to merely get to the voting round, rather than what they really wanted to do.
I can see the thread in my mind, "I processed this shot just like you said, why didn't it make the final list???"

I think if folks want opinions, they start a thread with their shot in it, and ask, "What do you think?"
Or start a thread after, asking "What did I do wrong?"

Sorry, but I just see a can of worms getting opened up.

richtersl

I don't have a problem with my pictures being picked apart, either.

I just don't want to see Emily get into a tussle like Shay did with someone who got all bent out of shape as to why her photo didn't make the cut in a challenge. He explained very nicely and she got really defensive about it. (OK, she got just a tad nasty.) She never showed up again in the challenges, either. So here we had someone whose ego got bruised for not making the cut. I'd hate to think how she'd have behaved had her photo been ripped apart as a not-so-good example, even tactfully. YIKES :eek1

KevXman

If someone can learn from my mistakes I would not have a problem as long as you extended a hand to help me back up after knocking me down and stomping on my dreams.
Just keep the laughing down to a minimum. :haha:cry

— Kevin

Greensquared

davev wrote:

I think this would be better set in the techniques or finishing school areas.

Plus, I think you could be swaying people into processing to your tastes, to merely get to the voting round, rather than what they really wanted to do.
I can see the thread in my mind, "I processed this shot just like you said, why didn't it make the final list???"

I think if folks want opinions, they start a thread with their shot in it, and ask, "What do you think?"
Or start a thread after asking "What did I do wrong?"

Sorry, but I just see a can of worms getting opened up.

Good point, but I'm really talking the basics here, not tastes. Known and respected composition rules, light, exposure, etc. Stuff you can really find in any basic photography book or basic photography class, except with your own work as examples. Just because an image follows the rule of thirds or not, does not mean the image will be a success or failure in these Challenges.

However, if a number of you agree with Dave here, then I can certainly just write the tutorials in my own time and shoot my own decent vs. crappy images for Dgrin.

KevXman

Greensquared wrote:

Good point, but I'm really talking the basics here, not tastes. Known and respected composition rules, light, exposure, etc. Stuff you can really find in any basic photography book or basic photography class, except with your own work as examples. Just because an image follows the rule of thirds or not, does not mean the image will be a success or failure in these Challenges.

However, if a number of you agree with Dave here, then I can certainly just write the tutorials in my own time and shoot my own decent vs. crappy images for Dgrin.

I'm always trying learn something new or improve myself in what I love doing and would be more than happy to help someone else do so as well. Whether you decide to do it here as an extention of the challenges or in another area of the forum you will have my support.

— Kevin

Greensquared

KevXman wrote:

I'm always trying learn something new or improve myself in what I love doing and would be more than happy to help someone else do so as well. Whether you decide to do it here as an extention of the challenges or in another area of the forum you will have my support.

— Kevin

Thanks Kevin!

jziegler

As someone who runs towards the bottom of the pack in the challenges (and LPS before them) when I enter, I have mixed feelings about this idea. It could be a great learning experience, or it could be humiliating. Emily, I think that you would have a good chance to make it constructive, your feedback so far has been excellent. I like the overall idea, but I'm not sure how it would work.

Greensquared

jziegler wrote:

As someone who runs towards the bottom of the pack in the challenges (and LPS before them) when I enter, I have mixed feelings about this idea. It could be a great learning experience, or it could be humiliating. Emily, I think that you would have a good chance to make it constructive, your feedback so far has been excellent. I like the overall idea, but I'm not sure how it would work.

Hmmm...ok well the only alternative that I can think of is to use some of your images as good examples, and then shoot some others myelf as bad examples (that shouldn't be too hard, heck, I'll just search my existing files...plenty of useful stuff there ). At least that way half of the shooting work would be done for me and no feelings hurt, yeah? But then again, what's the point of even putting it in the Challenges forum? Maybe I'll just ask some of you for permission to use select images when I go put my own tutorial together. Or maybe I'll just stick the whole thing on the back burner for now...

KurtPreston

Why not try a test run or two with shots from already completed challenges to let everyone see exactly what you are talking about, and to get a feel for if it will work.

I think the idea is splendid, and you have pre-approved, blanket permission to use any shots I submit to the challenges You may also beat me like a rented mule for any of he mistakes I make :beatwax

jziegler

Greensquared wrote:

Hmmm...ok well the only alternative that I can think of is to use some of your images as good examples, and then shoot some others myelf as bad examples (that shouldn't be too hard, heck, I'll just search my existing files...plenty of useful stuff there ). At least that way half of the shooting work would be done for me and no feelings hurt, yeah? But then again, what's the point of even putting it in the Challenges forum? Maybe I'll just ask some of you for permission to use select images when I go put my own tutorial together. Or maybe I'll just stick the whole thing on the back burner for now...

As I said, I like the idea overall, I just have concerns about implementing it so that the photographers for the bad examples don't feel bad about it. As long as it is done in a constructive manner, it could be a good learning experience for all. If good advice on how to improve something is given (which I'm guessing that you would) then it has value. If it is just this one is good, this one is bad, there is much less value to it. I would like to improve (as would most of the people participating in the challenges) and see how this could take them up another level. But it is something that must be done carefully. I'm having difficulty putting my thoughts into words here, so I'll just hope that I have made a little bit of sense. I don't want to stop this idea, I really like it, but I want to make sure that it can be a positive experience for everyone, even those whose photos are chosen as bad examples of something.

Tango

how about set up like Marc Muench and Schmoo have it in the lanscape forum.??
http://www.dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=88305


people whom want to submit for c&c of their past entries....

Nikolai

AaronNelson wrote:

how about set up like Marc Muench and Schmoo have it in the lanscape forum.??
http://www.dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=88305


people whom want to submit for c&c of their past entries....

Well, now we seem to get into the whole WP area..:-)

Greensquared

Nikolai wrote:

Well, now we seem to get into the whole WP area..:-)

Yeah, that's totally not where I'm wanting to go with this. Hmm, let me see if I can do a mock trial run with my own shots and see what you guys think.

Nikolai

Greensquared wrote:

Yeah, that's totally not where I'm wanting to go with this. Hmm, let me see if I can do a mock trial run with my own shots and see what you guys think.

Maybe a good idea to try. Again, you can use any of mine if you deem necessary, be it for good or bad example...

Greensquared

Mock Tutorial
DSS Forensics: Having a clear focal point

Many times we are in a place or situation that we feel is beautiful and start clicking. We see something interesting, raise the camera to our eye and snap! It's a bad habit that I find myself doing: not intentionally selecting a focal point.

Take this image as our first example:


We have some interesting stuff going on here. The light is nice and soft, the subject's not bad at all, but the image has left the viewer questioning what the photographer was really wanting us to look at. Is it the peacock? The red hens perhaps? There's also a very distracting background with a fence, a pole, grass and whatever that metal thing is on the right. Our eyes are now darting all over the image, but not having any real place to settle, we would soon be moving on.

Example number 2:


Now here we have the same subject, same light, but with a very definite focal point. There is no question as to what this image is about. Yes, the fence is still there, but the blur in it helps. Also the color in his face draws us in and away from the other monotones. We allow ourselves to drift around the image, but have a very definite place to settle back on.

When finding a scene pleasing, try to determine exactly what it is about that scene that you like. Zoom in, get up close. Focus on detail. Back away, zoom out. Take your time in the shooting process to really determine what you wish your image to be about, and how to best make it the focal point, and your image will have the impact you desire!

Greensquared

So? Does anybody out there have an opinion?

Jet

Great example... I dont see a problem with using material like that. Using your own material stops anyone getting touchy about their own work too.

Keep up the grand work

jziegler

Greensquared wrote:

So? Does anybody out there have an opinion?

Seems good to me. If you can make them like that, I'd be happy

Greensquared

Jet wrote:

Great example... I dont see a problem with using material like that. Using your own material stops anyone getting touchy about their own work too.

Keep up the grand work

Well, the point was that I would be using entries as examples and now my own work. This was just a "mock" version of what it would be like. If I do use my own work, then this will not happen in the Challenges forum. I'll just see about getting it posted directly in tutes.

Jet

Greensquared wrote:

Well, the point was that I would be using entries as examples and now my own work. This was just a "mock" version of what it would be like. If I do use my own work, then this will not happen in the Challenges forum. I'll just see about getting it posted directly in tutes.

Ah rightio. I think most people wouldnt have a problem with you using their entries - I certainly wouldnt, but there are the few out there that may feel the need to be asked first...?