I'm all for more feedback/critique on my photos (and others, too!) - it's the only way I'll get any better. I don't care if everything about it is awful - tell me what I can do to make it better!
Sometimes the truth hurts - but if you can't take it constructively, then you won't be getting any better. Pick em apart, babe!
Not getting a good feel from that example of how it would proceed as as a form of feedback or forensics of a DSS Challenge entry. It reads more like a straight tutorial, which is cool and would be useful, but I don't see where it fits what my impression of your goal was. May just be insufficient imagination on my part though, I tend to be too literal minded.
Not getting a good feel from that example of how it would proceed as as a form of feedback or forensics of a DSS Challenge entry. It reads more like a straight tutorial, which is cool and would be useful, but I don't see where it fits what my impression of your goal was. May just be insufficient imagination on my part though, I tend to be too literal minded.
The way I understand it is that a few pics from a DSS Challenge would be chosen as a how to and how not to comparison for tutorial purposes.
Not getting a good feel from that example of how it would proceed as as a form of feedback or forensics of a DSS Challenge entry. It reads more like a straight tutorial, which is cool and would be useful, but I don't see where it fits what my impression of your goal was. May just be insufficient imagination on my part though, I tend to be too literal minded.
Yeah, I think I'm just going to drop this idea for now. We've got enough to focus on for now anyway. Thanks for the input all. As you were...:D
It's still an excellent idea ... so mull it over and don't let it die. May just need to approach it from a slightly different angle, like instead of thinking of it as a forensics exrecise, maybe more of a "Spotlight On" type of thing where you highlight a DSS entry that really exemplifies a rule (or counters rule to good effect) and explain why it works and how it could have gone horribly wrong.
I think this would be better set in the techniques or finishing school areas.
Plus, I think you could be swaying people into processing to your tastes, to merely get to the voting round, rather than what they really wanted to do.
I can see the thread in my mind, "I processed this shot just like you said, why didn't it make the final list???"
I think if folks want opinions, they start a thread with their shot in it, and ask, "What do you think?"
Or start a thread after, asking "What did I do wrong?"
Sorry, but I just see a can of worms getting opened up.
This isn't really the place for something like this in the
challenges forum... This is a competition/challenge, not a school... critique on an image is all well and good (even negative) we can all accept that, and most look forward to it... When you start using someones work as an example of how not to do something, or even as an example of how to do something, in a contest forum you are overstepping your bounds, people will get their noses out of joint... We all enter our images thinking they might be good enough to win... Any way, I could go on and on but I won't... The bottom line is that people are here, and enter the contest to win! Learning and growing as photographers is a side benefit... If people want to learn more about photography there are many other forums for that...
The Challenges are great the way they are and you are doing a wonderful job Emily!
I think the idea would have some merit - but also some real problematic limitations. I worry it would keep a number of people from entering because they would not want to have their image shown as the bad example. I bet it would prevent some people from participating. I think we should be careful to not turn the challenges into the whipping post. While I am sure this is not the intent - some may feel that way. Maybe no one agrees with me, but, just my thoughts.
My other concern with this comes from a personal opinion I haven't shared about the setup of the challenges. I know it is not my place to suggest any areas of improvement in the challenges. However, my concern does come to light given the suggestion to create some teaching out of the entries.
I don't like to make a big deal over my artistic training, but, having spent 4 years in college disecting artwork as part of my Bachelor of Fine Arts degree, I feel one of the challenges assumptions goes against everything art can stand for. I have always had some concern over the assumption that a name alone should be sufficient for any viewer to understand the message of a piece of artwork. While this may be true for some artwork, most art historians and curators would likely roll over in their graves if that assumption was presented as the rule.
For example, the following image was one I recently entered into one of the challenges:
The image was in the challenge "moving forward". The title of the image is "Burning Pain". I had a number of fellow dgrinners express concern that the image alone with the name did not clearly show why it fit the theme. They were exactly right. The image alone with the name does not show why it fits "moving forward". However, the following context was provided with the image when it was entered: "Insence Burning in Chinese Temple for Sichuan Earthquake Victims. I have been in China for the past week witnessing the Chinese people struggle with the earthquake tragedy. It has been a truly sobering experience. The Temples have been flooded with mourners seeking help in moving forward." Once the context was read, many digrinners agreed the image fit the theme better. However, my entry was not considered seriously by many because it didn't fit the rule that the image and short title is all that should be necessary.
Throughout history art has been created not simply to be pretty, but to send a message or make a statement. I was trained to be cautios about giving a full review of an image without understanding the artist and a host of other issues making each images message relevant, only one of which is the name. I worry that many of the evaluations would be innaccurate, not because the judges are not competent. I think the judges are great. But, I think the judges do not have enough information to provide accurate evaluations that can be used as teaching tools. Hence, I don't think using the images of another without understanding more detail regarding context and messages would be a good idea unless more contextual information can be added as part of the challenge entries.
When I presented information in front of my art classes each week, we presented and discussed contextual issues for a period of time before the artwork was even seen or discussed. I wish there was a way context could be a part of the challenge process. However, I know this is not part of the system. I am not suggesting we need to change the system again. I am simply suggesting that we may be missing the ball trying to teach without sufficient information.
Another example:
Let's say the following image was entered into a challenge called "patriotic" and its title was "Chaos in Omaha"
It could be easy to be critical of this image and write it off because it is not clear why it fits the theme. One might assume we don't really know what's going on, maybe its a soldier or something in the water. And what does Omaha have to do with a soldier in the water? Omaha is in the middle of the midwest, not near any ocean. We also might write it off because it really is technically poor. It's grainy, out of focus, and has a poor composition. Hence, this one is a certain write off in the challenge.
However, when the context is provided, the opinion changes:
As many of you may have recognized, this is one of Robert Capa's famous images from Omaha beach when the military went ashore on June 6, 1944. Capa is known for risking his life to photograph the assault, one that resulted in many lives lost. The image is understandably out of focus when it is recognized the context in which it was shot. Also, Life Magazine accidentally ruined the film in their haste to have it processed for printing. The result was the severe grain and blotchiness in the image. However, the image has been aplauded for years as simply fantastic because the graininess and blurrieness actually illustrates the chaos if the moment, and the patriotic sacrifice of those brave soldiers. In addition, the fact that a photographer was willing to risk his life so that the families and country of the troops could witness what is happening is as patriotic an act as a photographer has ever performed. Hence, with this context, I would vote this image number 1. However, I worry with the teaching evaluations, it would be criticized as out of focus, grainy, poor composition, and it isn't clear why it fits the theme.
I think the idea would have some merit - but also some real problematic limitations.
You pose some very real and true comments. I agree that there are definitely exceptions to every rule and sometimes it IS breaking them that deems an image brilliant. Take AaronNelson's most recent entry. I looked at crops off-centered, and decided that his judgment call there was perfect (and applauded him for such). And that's where a difference comes in, is knowing the rules, knowing how to apply them and knowing instinctively when to ignore them. The comes with time and practice. I have taken the "history of photography" when I attended commercial photography school (it was actually one of my favorite classes), and I agree that many of the images that are now acclaimed would likely fail miserably in this contest along with many others.
As far as context goes, I truly believe that the image should stand alone in this particular contest. Your example image here truly does stand alone as an excellently executed shot, with great photojournalism potential as it draws you in. You see something truly interesting and want to know what it's about. The way these challenges will run, I will be considering each one and stating if I feel supporting information is a good idea. For the most part though, I really want the image to tell me a story in itself, without me having to question how it relates to the theme. It doesn't make the image any less brilliant, it just helps with my judging criteria. And then there are some judges who will read all supporting material, or will completely ignore the theme and just select images they like. There are no rules or guidelines for judging these rounds, other than the ones we assign for ourselves.
Okay, I really need to go back to bed now (and should totally avoid checking on on things in the middle of the night!). I have decided to put this idea on the back burner and just concentrate my efforts on what's currently in place.
Jonathan, that was expressed very well. thank you for the good read!
Emily, im glad your not going to do this or atleast put it on the back burner, i really really felt you maybe was going down a dangerous road with this and i was trying to think how to express my thoughts to you....but i believe Jonathan did far better than i would have....btw, thanks for the kind words, it made my day.
Comments
I'm all for more feedback/critique on my photos (and others, too!) - it's the only way I'll get any better. I don't care if everything about it is awful - tell me what I can do to make it better!
Sometimes the truth hurts - but if you can't take it constructively, then you won't be getting any better. Pick em apart, babe!
If I can help, in any way, please let me know.
Heidi
The way I understand it is that a few pics from a DSS Challenge would be chosen as a how to and how not to comparison for tutorial purposes.
Yeah, I think I'm just going to drop this idea for now. We've got enough to focus on for now anyway. Thanks for the input all. As you were...:D
This isn't really the place for something like this in the
challenges forum... This is a competition/challenge, not a school... critique on an image is all well and good (even negative) we can all accept that, and most look forward to it... When you start using someones work as an example of how not to do something, or even as an example of how to do something, in a contest forum you are overstepping your bounds, people will get their noses out of joint... We all enter our images thinking they might be good enough to win... Any way, I could go on and on but I won't... The bottom line is that people are here, and enter the contest to win! Learning and growing as photographers is a side benefit... If people want to learn more about photography there are many other forums for that...
The Challenges are great the way they are and you are doing a wonderful job Emily!
My other concern with this comes from a personal opinion I haven't shared about the setup of the challenges. I know it is not my place to suggest any areas of improvement in the challenges. However, my concern does come to light given the suggestion to create some teaching out of the entries.
I don't like to make a big deal over my artistic training, but, having spent 4 years in college disecting artwork as part of my Bachelor of Fine Arts degree, I feel one of the challenges assumptions goes against everything art can stand for. I have always had some concern over the assumption that a name alone should be sufficient for any viewer to understand the message of a piece of artwork. While this may be true for some artwork, most art historians and curators would likely roll over in their graves if that assumption was presented as the rule.
For example, the following image was one I recently entered into one of the challenges:
The image was in the challenge "moving forward". The title of the image is "Burning Pain". I had a number of fellow dgrinners express concern that the image alone with the name did not clearly show why it fit the theme. They were exactly right. The image alone with the name does not show why it fits "moving forward". However, the following context was provided with the image when it was entered: "Insence Burning in Chinese Temple for Sichuan Earthquake Victims. I have been in China for the past week witnessing the Chinese people struggle with the earthquake tragedy. It has been a truly sobering experience. The Temples have been flooded with mourners seeking help in moving forward." Once the context was read, many digrinners agreed the image fit the theme better. However, my entry was not considered seriously by many because it didn't fit the rule that the image and short title is all that should be necessary.
Throughout history art has been created not simply to be pretty, but to send a message or make a statement. I was trained to be cautios about giving a full review of an image without understanding the artist and a host of other issues making each images message relevant, only one of which is the name. I worry that many of the evaluations would be innaccurate, not because the judges are not competent. I think the judges are great. But, I think the judges do not have enough information to provide accurate evaluations that can be used as teaching tools. Hence, I don't think using the images of another without understanding more detail regarding context and messages would be a good idea unless more contextual information can be added as part of the challenge entries.
When I presented information in front of my art classes each week, we presented and discussed contextual issues for a period of time before the artwork was even seen or discussed. I wish there was a way context could be a part of the challenge process. However, I know this is not part of the system. I am not suggesting we need to change the system again. I am simply suggesting that we may be missing the ball trying to teach without sufficient information.
Another example:
Let's say the following image was entered into a challenge called "patriotic" and its title was "Chaos in Omaha"
It could be easy to be critical of this image and write it off because it is not clear why it fits the theme. One might assume we don't really know what's going on, maybe its a soldier or something in the water. And what does Omaha have to do with a soldier in the water? Omaha is in the middle of the midwest, not near any ocean. We also might write it off because it really is technically poor. It's grainy, out of focus, and has a poor composition. Hence, this one is a certain write off in the challenge.
However, when the context is provided, the opinion changes:
As many of you may have recognized, this is one of Robert Capa's famous images from Omaha beach when the military went ashore on June 6, 1944. Capa is known for risking his life to photograph the assault, one that resulted in many lives lost. The image is understandably out of focus when it is recognized the context in which it was shot. Also, Life Magazine accidentally ruined the film in their haste to have it processed for printing. The result was the severe grain and blotchiness in the image. However, the image has been aplauded for years as simply fantastic because the graininess and blurrieness actually illustrates the chaos if the moment, and the patriotic sacrifice of those brave soldiers. In addition, the fact that a photographer was willing to risk his life so that the families and country of the troops could witness what is happening is as patriotic an act as a photographer has ever performed. Hence, with this context, I would vote this image number 1. However, I worry with the teaching evaluations, it would be criticized as out of focus, grainy, poor composition, and it isn't clear why it fits the theme.
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You pose some very real and true comments. I agree that there are definitely exceptions to every rule and sometimes it IS breaking them that deems an image brilliant. Take AaronNelson's most recent entry. I looked at crops off-centered, and decided that his judgment call there was perfect (and applauded him for such). And that's where a difference comes in, is knowing the rules, knowing how to apply them and knowing instinctively when to ignore them. The comes with time and practice. I have taken the "history of photography" when I attended commercial photography school (it was actually one of my favorite classes), and I agree that many of the images that are now acclaimed would likely fail miserably in this contest along with many others.
As far as context goes, I truly believe that the image should stand alone in this particular contest. Your example image here truly does stand alone as an excellently executed shot, with great photojournalism potential as it draws you in. You see something truly interesting and want to know what it's about. The way these challenges will run, I will be considering each one and stating if I feel supporting information is a good idea. For the most part though, I really want the image to tell me a story in itself, without me having to question how it relates to the theme. It doesn't make the image any less brilliant, it just helps with my judging criteria. And then there are some judges who will read all supporting material, or will completely ignore the theme and just select images they like. There are no rules or guidelines for judging these rounds, other than the ones we assign for ourselves.
Okay, I really need to go back to bed now (and should totally avoid checking on on things in the middle of the night!). I have decided to put this idea on the back burner and just concentrate my efforts on what's currently in place.
Emily, im glad your not going to do this or atleast put it on the back burner, i really really felt you maybe was going down a dangerous road with this and i was trying to think how to express my thoughts to you....but i believe Jonathan did far better than i would have....btw, thanks for the kind words, it made my day.