A greedy wedding planner

SaloSV

Alright this one is stinky:

A close friend of mine hired me to cover social "goings on" for her wedding weekend. 2 days total worth of coverage for which I have been paid.

Another more established photographer (very nice person) covered the actual ceremony and most of the reception.

I made contact with the planner for the future, and when I opened up the photos for viewing, I informed her that there were some nice ones of her doing her job that she might be able to use. She, in turn, requested a short list of 22 photos total that she might use for her website "in preparation for a bridal show" coming up in January.

Obviously, anytime someone with a more established business can help me get more business, I am willing to offer free use of images, with clear stipulation for use. This is what I did in this case.

About a week ago she posted my pics, mixed with the ones she claims she originated, but without credit to me. No name, no link to my site, nothing.

I sent her a nice email requesting she place the credit there as she agreed to do (all documented in a long email thread), and she promised it would be done by the end of the day. One week later, she still has not posted credit (assuming her claim is the end all truth).

In fact, she goes so far as to credit the other photographer, who actually took NONE of the pictures on the page.

Here's the link:
http://www.onefinedaynwa.com/jonandStephanie.html

Looking for advice on how I should handle this.

I will say, this is the second reason I prefer to avoid weddings. The first is stress.

Thanks all!

ashby

Sounds to me like she misunderstood your concerns. (Sounds like she wasn't sure who she was talking to?) I'd call her on the phone and see if it couldn't be corrected without introducing a lot of drama. Stuff done by email often (for me) gets screwed up.

ChatKat

[Do you have it in writing? If you do, then tell her that she agreed to give you credit.

The thing is that if you gave them to her with nothing in writing, you have to prove that she is using them without permission. Each state has different laws on oral contracts. And if you want to work in the wedding business, you have to suck up to some people sometime. Reputation is everything. Get it all in writing.

I just did a very big event at a 5 star venue that I want to shoot in going forward. You bet the planner got my images. I wrote a letter with them telling them how they could use them - with credit. If they use them without credit to me I won't care if I don't get the business because it tells me their ethics. I also made sure I forged a relationship with the banquet manager. And I made some prints for them as a gift to the employees I shot during the event. A little pr goes a long way.

SaloSV wrote:

Alright this one is stinky:

A close friend of mine hired me to cover social "goings on" for her wedding weekend. 2 days total worth of coverage for which I have been paid.

Another more established photographer (very nice person) covered the actual ceremony and most of the reception.

I made contact with the planner for the future, and when I opened up the photos for viewing, I informed her that there were some nice ones of her doing her job that she might be able to use. She, in turn, requested a short list of 22 photos total that she might use for her website "in preparation for a bridal show" coming up in January.

Obviously, anytime someone with a more established business can help me get more business, I am willing to offer free use of images, with clear stipulation for use. This is what I did in this case.

About a week ago she posted my pics, mixed with the ones she claims she originated, but without credit to me. No name, no link to my site, nothing.

I sent her a nice email requesting she place the credit there as she agreed to do (all documented in a long email thread), and she promised it would be done by the end of the day. One week later, she still has not posted credit (assuming her claim is the end all truth).

In fact, she goes so far as to credit the other photographer, who actually took NONE of the pictures on the page.

Here's the link:
http://www.onefinedaynwa.com/jonandStephanie.html

Looking for advice on how I should handle this.

I will say, this is the second reason I prefer to avoid weddings. The first is stress.

Thanks all!

Jeremy Winterberg

I take it that your name isn't Jeremy Cavness? lol... Sweet pics though! You took the ones at the parties and such right?

I'm no attorney, but I say ask her kindly to give credit maybe one or two more times, then drop the lawsuit threat... nicely though. You dont want to make her upset, because she could take away many customers. And if she doesn't after another week or two, tell her that you'll see her in small claims court, or the big boy court if you think your images are worth that much.

I probably wouldn't listen to me. Just saying what I would do if I was in your situation.

dwayne_bradley

Something else interesting...
I would just about bet my house that she does NOT have the "rights" to post that Kenny Chesney MP3 on the page for free. I wonder if Kenny's record company would fine it interesting.?

SaloSV

dwayne_bradley wrote:

I would just about bet my house that she does NOT have the "rights" to post that Kenny Chesney MP3 on the page for free. I wonder if Kenny's record company would fine it interesting.?

Exactafreekinmundo!

The only "written" agreement I have is in the thread of emails I have exchanged with her. Believe me, there is no confusion. She did apologize in her response, blamed everything on "being crazy," but still had time to put up and collage and an unlicensed song. If she were 501c(3), she's safe. But she ain't.

Here's my brain working: isn't she taking away customers from me by not giving me credit and using my photos? I wonder what Mr. Cavness would say if I told him she was doing this (this is a setup question).

I'm not really than into weddings, but I love taking pictures of people, so that's why I occasionally do them (usually just for friends).

Very interesting thoughts so far. Thanks folks.

SaloSV

Yup! my name is Tom! I did meet Jeremy though, nice guy. I did take the ones you mention. Only 9 of the 21 posted were by someone else, the rest are mine.

Jeremy Winterberg wrote:

I take it that your name isn't Jeremy Cavness? lol... Sweet pics though! You took the ones at the parties and such right?

I'm no attorney, but I say ask her kindly to give credit maybe one or two more times, then drop the lawsuit threat... nicely though. You dont want to make her upset, because she could take away many customers. And if she doesn't after another week or two, tell her that you'll see her in small claims court, or the big boy court if you think your images are worth that much.

I probably wouldn't listen to me. Just saying what I would do if I was in your situation.

Jeremy Winterberg

SaloSV wrote:

Yup! my name is Tom! I did meet Jeremy though, nice guy. I did take the ones you mention. Only 9 of the 21 posted were by someone else, the rest are mine.

Nice to meet ya Tom! My name is Jeremy... Winterberg not Cavness.

cjmchch

Jeremy Winterberg wrote:

Nice to meet ya Tom! My name is Jeremy... Winterberg not Cavness.

Gosh I wouldn't get too hung up about it.......from what I see of the site and how the photos are showing up I'd be more than happy not to be associated with the site no matter what! I'd be asking her to remove the photos you took given she hasn't met her end of the deal and advise her that failure to do so will render her in breach of copyrite.

Man that site is ugly!

Jeremy Winterberg

cjmchch wrote:

Man that site is ugly!

Blurmore

I hate to be the party pooper...But the way NOT to handle it is to air it in a public internet forum and link to her site on the internets. I know where ALL hits to my blog and website come from...and if she is worth her salt...so does she. Call her...tell her you want proper credit/link or you want the pictures pulled. And teach her to resize.

FedererPhoto

Blurmore wrote:

And teach her to resize.

HAHAHA

SaloSV

Blurmore wrote:

I hate to be the party pooper...But the way NOT to handle it is to air it in a public internet forum and link to her site on the internets. I know where ALL hits to my blog and website come from...and if she is worth her salt...so does she. Call her...tell her you want proper credit/link or you want the pictures pulled. And teach her to resize.

Well, if that's not a chicken and egg at the same time. What am I supposed to do to get help from here, print the page and mass mail it? I've been working in IT for over 10 years now, and after meeting her face to face, my experience would tell me that she has no clue where her hits come from.

But I also agree, the site just plain sucks.

Of course, as I post this, she has changed her crediting now to "Tom Gun Photos."

LUV this little bright star of a brain she has! :puke1

Art Scott

SaloSV wrote:

Well, if that's not a chicken and egg at the same time. What am I supposed to do to get help from here, print the page and mass mail it? I've been working in IT for over 10 years now, and after meeting her face to face, my experience would tell me that she has no clue where her hits come from.

But I also agree, the site just plain sucks.

Of course, as I post this, she has changed her crediting now to "Tom Gun Photos."

LUV this little bright star of a brain she has! :puke1

Well great that she has finally credited you
She may have found this forum and went wow what are these people gonna think of me......or maybe she heard her little brother sitting on the front porch playing dueling banjos or maybe people that read your posts here went to look and used her contact page.....personally I hate having to hunt for the music controller and I even hate it more when I have to do it for each and every page......UUUgggghhhhh

or maybe she just had an epiphany

SaloSV

Art Scott wrote:

Well great that she has finally credited you
She may have found this forum and went wow what are these people gonna think of me......or maybe she heard her little brother sitting on the front porch playing dueling banjos or maybe people that read your posts here went to look and used her contact page.....personally I hate having to hunt for the music controller and I even hate it more when I have to do it for each and every page......UUUgggghhhhh

or maybe she just had an epiphany

Yeah, who knows. But what I was trying to get at is, TOM GUN PHOTOS isn't the name of my business. I would have rather her just put my name there. She's crediting someone, but I don't know who TOM GUN PHOTOS is.

I don't know, I get a little worked up about it because where I come from in the motion picture biz, proper credit is a show of thanks, and it's the professional standard. But rest assured, I'm not THAT worked up.

I am definitely interested in seeing how it all plays out.

I even went so far as to give her the HTML code needed to link back to me. Would have been a nice to have, but at this point I can deduce, that is obviously NOT going to happen. It's kind of a pain because she's not providing me the benefit needed to gen business from it. I know most of it will come through referrals, but there is still business lost when I Google "Tom Gun Photos," and I get a nice quality image of an F-14. Ya see what I'm gettin' at?

Art Scott

SaloSV wrote:

Yeah, who knows. But what I was trying to get at is, TOM GUN PHOTOS isn't the name of my business. I would have rather her just put my name there. She's crediting someone, but I don't know who TOM GUN PHOTOS is.

I don't know, I get a little worked up about it because where I come from in the motion picture biz, proper credit is a show of thanks, and it's the professional standard. But rest assured, I'm not THAT worked up.

I am definitely interested in seeing how it all plays out.

I even went so far as to give her the HTML code needed to link back to me. Would have been a nice to have, but at this point I can deduce, that is obviously NOT going to happen. It's kind of a pain because she's not providing me the benefit needed to gen business from it. I know most of it will come through referrals, but there is still business lost when I Google "Tom Gun Photos," and I get a nice quality image of an F-14. Ya see what I'm gettin' at?

I see now...said the blind photog to deef seeing eyed dawg.....Tom Gun Photo as opposed to Tommy Gun Photo .......and I understand the worry of loss business.
Give another chance to get it right and then call in the legal guns.....the law dept at the U of A should be able to help......my contacts in that part of the world are all gone to the other side (was related to Judge Cummins of Washington Co.)...but still ahve family on Benton Co. Sherrifs dept.....but that is no help to you................

SaloSV

Cool, thanks Art.

I'll allow for some patience now. I've emailed her a request for the correction, and an explanation as to why. She's already responded stating it will be fixed.

bob swanson

Weeeell you at least got a chance to vent. Your's was an easy one. You were dealing with someone with just half a brain. Most of us in the business would be pleased to deal with that much intelligence. bsvirginian

SaloSV wrote:

Cool, thanks Art.

I'll allow for some patience now. I've emailed her a request for the correction, and an explanation as to why. She's already responded stating it will be fixed.

SaloSV

bob swanson wrote:

Weeeell you at least got a chance to vent. Your's was an easy one. You were dealing with someone with just half a brain. Most of us in the business would be pleased to deal with that much intelligence. bsvirginian

I will gladly keep that in mind.

photodoug

bob swanson wrote:

Weeeell you at least got a chance to vent. Your's was an easy one. You were dealing with someone with just half a brain. Most of us in the business would be pleased to deal with that much intelligence. bsvirginian

can't help but think: you possibly created real bad blood with this person and that word will get around....accurate or not. "The customer is always right." I can't help but think that this will just negatively affect your bottom line. I understand now why folks that "vent" will choose to not include a real link to the other person's website. Maybe a print-screen or very detailed description would have sufficed.

/end of my .02

Jeremy Winterberg

photodoug wrote:

can't help but think: you possibly created real bad blood with this person and that word will get around....accurate or not. "The customer is always right." I can't help but think that this will just negatively affect your bottom line. I understand now why folks that "vent" will choose to not include a real link to the other person's website. Maybe a print-screen or very detailed description would have sufficed.

/end of my .02

But, he could also negatively affect her bottom line as well. He could tell all his friends to tell all their friends not to use her, and also not suggest her to his clients as a planner. he could make her business shut down if his client database is large enough. Anyways, good luck and I hope she does fix it.

i_worship_the_King

I still think this is just an honest mistake... Working with people everyday and their websites half of them don't have a clue what is going on or how it's accomplished. She probably just forwarded a quick note to her web guy and he had no idea what was going on and tried to please everyone even though he's the 3rd party. It honestly happens about once a week around here.

Your best defense is to be super-specific from the get-go. In the contract just say "place a 50x150 logo on every page containing a copyrighted photo from me" and then provide the logo. Don't make it super intrusive, and provide it in photoshop format, PNG, and JPG. Provide a version that can be worked to at least partially match the website design - a transparent background with a white letter version and a black letter version covers most of the bases.

Kwarta

Shes lucky, most of the photogs around here wont even "wait" to see ifs been corrected or not, They send them a bill, What ever their download price is. It either gets paid or the photos get removed. I personally don't do that. I think its harsh, But thats the world we live in now.:cry

Jeremy Winterberg

Kwarta wrote:

Shes lucky, most of the photogs around here wont even "wait" to see ifs been corrected or not, They send them a bill, What ever their download price is. It either gets paid or the photos get removed. I personally don't do that. I think its harsh, But thats the world we live in now.:cry

Thats a good idea. Charge the commercial price. I'll keep that in mind if I get screwed over. Like give them a chance to fix it, then if they dont warn them that they'll be charged, and then if they still dont bill 'em! If they are using quite a few pictures that would suck for them, but its their fault.

photodoug

Jeremy Winterberg wrote:

Thats a good idea. Charge the commercial price. I'll keep that in mind if I get screwed over. Like give them a chance to fix it, then if they dont warn them that they'll be charged, and then if they still dont bill 'em! If they are using quite a few pictures that would suck for them, but its their fault.

very professional approach, focused on fair compensation, no threats. Good choice.

bob swanson

Possibly this might have been avoided by putting your copywrite on the images individually. I just did that with a hotel that requested some of my images for their wedding book. No matter who she suggests or gives credit there is always your name on the images. Just my thoughts, bsvirginian:ivar

Kwarta wrote:

Shes lucky, most of the photogs around here wont even "wait" to see ifs been corrected or not, They send them a bill, What ever their download price is. It either gets paid or the photos get removed. I personally don't do that. I think its harsh, But thats the world we live in now.:cry

SaloSV

Believe me, I hear what everybody is saying. But I'm just starting out here, and I really don't even like to do weddings. Just when friend or colleague requests it.

I have definitely thought about charging her my commercial license price. Many here might thinks its really low, but it would mean income into the hundreds. I have certainly not given up that idea yet.

I'm giving her the benefit of the doubt in that this is probably a mistake, and allowing her the chance to correct it, once. If ever she doesn't respond, AND doesn't correct it... she'll get billed.

Right now, I think a membership with the PPA would be nice. I understand they offer lots of protection....?


p.s. I just googled several renditions of the business name she is using, and got several hits from individuals that are using that name all across the country, and all in different disciplines involving weddings. The fact that this is happening to me, from someone so unoriginal is sickening to me.

She has a week, just like last time, then she's gettin a bill for my rediculously low commercial license fee.

jeffreaux2

This is all....really....pretty ridiculous...
Everything she has done is ditsy and un-professional but....


- Have you registered your images for copyright?

- If you are just starting out, you need a contract or agreement....in writing....signed by both parties for each job. It can be as complicated as a full-out wedding contract...or as simple as an agreement to outline the rights and responsibilities of the image user.

- Airing out unhappiness with a client in a public forum isn't any more professional than anything else that has happened.

- You state that you prefer to NOT do weddings...so I don't get the beef.

I say suck-it-up....get over it...you have both made mistakes.....move on.

Jeremy Winterberg

I'm just starting out as well. In fact, I've only had a DSLR for 3 months, and its my first. I too have ridiculously low prices, but you gotta start low enough so people will accept your inexperience. Then when you get better jack everything up to pro rates! my commercial is at $20 a picture... What's yours?

Scotto

Originally Posted by cjmchch
Man that site is ugly!

Don't be associated with the site, it looks terrible.

Although I feel your frustration having had this done to me in the past, take it on the chin move on and leave well alone.

SaloSV

jeffreaux2 wrote:

This is all....really....pretty ridiculous...
Everything she has done is ditsy and un-professional but....


- Have you registered your images for copyright?

- If you are just starting out, you need a contract or agreement....in writing....signed by both parties for each job. It can be as complicated as a full-out wedding contract...or as simple as an agreement to outline the rights and responsibilities of the image user.

- Airing out unhappiness with a client in a public forum isn't any more professional than anything else that has happened.

- You state that you prefer to NOT do weddings...so I don't get the beef.

I say suck-it-up....get over it...you have both made mistakes.....move on.

I won't argue with the ridiculousness of it, but it's not like I'm sitting in a circle of experienced photographers. I post on an internet forum for help sometimes. I take it you do the same.

I need to register for copyright ownership of images that I originate? Last time I went to school, the jist of the law stated that if you originate it, you own it. So where would I register (as in, fill out a form or pay a fee, or do something else making it more "official" that it already is)? If I had to do this for every image I originate, I wouldn't have time to eat/sleep. Maybe I'm confused about what you're saying.

My beef is, I don't like being taken advantage of. As would any artist who thinks their work is worthy of being compensated for. If my self-esteem was THAT low, I wouldn't be posting here. I'd just let her have them and forget about it.

Everything else, grain of salt. :ivar

Jeremy, commercial is $25. 25 (commercial fee) x 22 (# of images I gave her) = $550. I could certainly put that to good use.