Portable lighting: advice needed

Nikolai · May 19, 2005

I'm working my ways into pro photog biz step-by-step.
I did a vew "free"/"almost free" gigs before, and now another one is coming where I'll be the "top dog":-), i.e. appointed "official" phographer.
It's an indoor reception, pretty big crowd (about 50..80 ppl). Light probably is gonna be pretty poor (restaurant type of thing).
Since I hope those thing will happen more and more often, I plan to invest a little bit and get meself a set of portable lights with reflecting umbrellas and such (are they called softboxes?).

I'm thinking of a portable set, containing a "background" screen (maybe have a kit with several types - dark, light, med), and two "soft" lights. They have to come with all the stands/booms/cables or whatever is needed to operate them (and hopefully some storage/transportation case) - I currently have nada.

I have the latest B&H catalog and I still have some time to order them before the gig (end of May).

However, the options are too many, so I'd appreciate some specific advices.

What shall I get?

Thank you!

dragon300zx · May 19, 2005

Budget?

Personally I would go with strobes, Maybe a setup from alien bee. They have good stuff at great prices. A good setup from them for a portable studio for lighting a few people at a time would be around 1500 give or take a few 100. Thats actually what I want I may end up buying a temporary setup from B&H for around 500 myself for now. Backdrop stand and if you don't wanna foot out for muslin right away try a local fabric store and see what they have. Upbrella's are jsut that umprella's with a silver lining. (I know my spelling is bad) SoftBox's are even better IMHO. They are those big black things that go over the lights and have a white front to them. Nice even lighting from them.

Nikolai · May 19, 2005

I was hoping to get around with $500

dragon300zx wrote:

Budget?

Personally I would go with strobes, Maybe a setup from alien bee. They have good stuff at great prices. A good setup from them for a portable studio for lighting a few people at a time would be around 1500 give or take a few 100. Thats actually what I want I may end up buying a temporary setup from B&H for around 500 myself for now. Backdrop stand and if you don't wanna foot out for muslin right away try a local fabric store and see what they have. Upbrella's are jsut that umprella's with a silver lining. (I know my spelling is bad) SoftBox's are even better IMHO. They are those big black things that go over the lights and have a white front to them. Nice even lighting from them.

But you see, I don't know *what* I need..:-(

Softboxes(those thingies with diffusing panels in front)?
Lights with reflective umbrellas?
Strobes (they are like flashes on stands, right?)? Do I need the umbrellas for them?

What are the pros/cons of each? Which one would be the most versatile for a wannabe pro (i.e. without Andy's budget:-). I guess I need someting to match the price/versatility of my 8282's 28..200 fixed zoom lens..

Gosh, I'm such a n00b

dragon300zx · May 19, 2005

If only I was still in california we would go shopping. If ya want PM me a budget and I will do a list of what I would buy if I could afford it.

Nikolai · May 19, 2005

If you don't mind sharing..

dragon300zx wrote:

If only I was still in california we would go shopping. If ya want PM me a budget and I will do a list of what I would buy if I could afford it.

Can I ask for a favor and play it in 3 modes:
$500 - $1,000 - $1,500?

Thanks!!

dragon300zx · May 19, 2005

K ill figure something out and post it.

tmlphoto · May 19, 2005

Nik,
What kind of shots are you talking about taking at this event and how to you see using this equipment in the future? There are so many options out there that you should be able to taylor to your needs and budget. Any chance of using an available background? Can you do bounce flash with your setup? I recently used a Lightsphere II to shoot a wedding reception. It works great, especially if you have a ceiling to bounce off of.

I started my home studio with one strobe and a reflector and a black background. Lighter backgrounds will require you to have one or more lights to light the background in addition to the light/lights you use to light the subject. An umbrella is much easier to setup than a softbox ( also less expensive). Shooting with studio lights takes a bit of getting used to, as it introduces quite a few variables into the mix.

Nikolai · May 19, 2005

Thomas,

tmlphoto wrote:

Nik,
What kind of shots are you talking about taking at this event and how to you see using this equipment in the future? There are so many options out there that you should be able to taylor to your needs and budget. Any chance of using an available background? Can you do bounce flash with your setup? I recently used a Lightsphere II to shoot a wedding reception. It works great, especially if you have a ceiling to bounce off of.

I started my home studio with one strobe and a reflector and a black background. Lighter backgrounds will require you to have one or more lights to light the background in addition to the light/lights you use to light the subject. An umbrella is much easier to setup than a softbox ( also less expensive). Shooting with studio lights takes a bit of getting used to, as it introduces quite a few variables into the mix.

Thank you for your reply..

Well, here is my thoughts.

I would like to use this setup for both receiption-like shooting and possible portraits session at the customer's place.
I know from experience that ceiling is not always availalble (more often not than is), so a good pair of lights is quite a necessity.

I don't know if I need strobes or lights

I feel that I need a background, 'cause again, I had too many pictures of ppl against the doors with knobs or walls with electrical outlets. Maybe I need a stand (which one?) and buy a fabric separately?

Too many questions.. Stobes, lights, softboxes..Arrgh.. I would love to work for free for a month or two (part-time:-) in a good versatile studio just to learn the diffference.. Anybody in LA viscinity needs a high-quality photo-slave?:D

ian408 · May 19, 2005

tmlphoto wrote:

An umbrella is much easier to setup than a softbox ( also less expensive). Shooting with studio lights takes a bit of getting used to, as it introduces quite a few variables into the mix.

Indeed. Shooting like this will require you to look into things like a meter
to get the exposure correct. And it will require time to learn to do it well.

I got a bit of an introduction back in December and while I thought I did
OK, it was a lot of work to get right. Here's a sample:

This set up was lit with a softbox camera right, an umbrella just behind the
camera. A smaller fill light lower left and a reflector to the left. The
background is probably 10x20 feet.

If I had to do it again, I'd probably use a better hair light.

Ian

Shay Stephens · May 19, 2005

Start simple. You can do a lot with a single light. You can add more lights as you gain experience and/or need to light larger or more difficult things. Here is an example of some shots using a single light from my recent Arizona/Mexico wedding shoot:

For the top three photos, I was using a softbox, for the bottom shot, I was using a brollybox. I connect them to a Sunpak 555 handle mount flash on top of a light stand and triggered with a Pocketwizard plus radio transmitter/receiver pair.

Of course, you can choose any equipment you like, this is but one possibility:
PocketWizard Plus Transmitter...............$165.00 B&H # WIPWPT
Pocket Wizard Plus receiver...................$184.00 B&H # WIPWPR
10' light stand.....................................$39.95 Alienbees # LS3050
32" brollybox.......................................$29.95 Alienbees # UB32
Sunpak 555 flash unit...........................$169.95 B&H # SU555
Sunpak to Pocketwizard cord.................$17.95 B&H # WICHHM16
Chimera Softbox, White 16x22................$118.95 B&H# CHSPPBXSW
Chimera Speed Ring..............................$41.95 B&H# CHSRHMR
umbrella adapter..................................$13.95 B&H # gbmb

$782

You can save some money by just using a brolly box for soft lighting
PocketWizard Plus Transmitter...............$165.00 B&H # WIPWPT
Pocket Wizard Plus receiver...................$184.00 B&H # WIPWPR
10' light stand.....................................$39.95 Alienbees # LS3050
32" brollybox.......................................$29.95 Alienbees # UB32
Sunpak 555 flash unit...........................$169.95 B&H # SU555
Sunpak to Pocketwizard cord.................$17.95 B&H # WICHHM16
umbrella adapter..................................$13.95 B&H # gbmb

$621

Save more by using a sync cord or other means to trigger the light
10' light stand.....................................$39.95 Alienbees # LS3050
32" brollybox.......................................$29.95 Alienbees # UB32
Sunpak 555 flash unit...........................$169.95 B&H # SU555
Sunpak to Pocketwizard cord.................$17.95 B&H # WICHHM16
umbrella adapter..................................$13.95 B&H # gbmb

$272

The advantage of using battery operated lighting is not having to be close to a power outlet, which as you can probably imagine is not always within reach of your cords

which brings up another point to be aware of, on location work and cords are a terrible combination. Eliminate your dependence on cords to the barest minimum. Radio transmitter/receivers are a pricey solution, but wireless triggering is worth it's weight in gold, trust me.

*Additional note:
As Ian mentioned, a light meter is a wonderful tool when shooting with flash. I use a Sekonic L-358 and have been pleased with it. You can get by without one if only using a single flash, but once you go multiple flash, You better have already had and used successfully a light/flash meter.

Nikolai · May 19, 2005

I see your point!
Thank you very much!

Cheers!

Nikolai · May 20, 2005

Wow, Shay..
You got me here.. I feel so stupid, I don't even know what a brollybox is

It looks like I need to get "studio lighting 101" first..

Man.. Thanks for all the details! I'll try to digest the info.. Thanks a bunch!

tmlphoto · May 20, 2005

Nikolai wrote:

You got me here.. I feel so stupid, I don't even know what a brollybox is
It looks like I need to get "studio lighting 101" first..
Man.. Thanks for all the details! I'll try to digest the info.. Thanks a bunch!

A brolly box is basically a "poor mans" softbox. It is like an umbrella with a diffusion cover in front. Must faster to setup & transport than a softbox.
This site is very organized and can give you an idea about what everyone is talking about. Their prices aren't too bad. www.alienbees.com

Nikolai · May 20, 2005

thanks!

tmlphoto wrote:

A brolly box is basically a "poor mans" softbox. It is like an umbrella with a diffusion cover in front. Must faster to setup & transport than a softbox.
This site is very organized and can give you an idea about what everyone is talking about. Their prices aren't too bad. www.alienbees.com

I looked at it, but I'm still confused... Too many unknowns, too many variables..
I guess I need to made my pick (prolly a rather cheap one), start using it and then drift towards a better solution.. just like with the cameras..

Here's what I'm looking at right now:

B&H # IMQ12002K 1200 2-light quarts kit $279:

2 - Sminth-Vector 600 wt open face thungsten Lights
2 - DYH 600Wt/120V lamps
2 - Impact 6' Light Stands
2 - 45' umbrellas with removable balck/white cover
2 - Impact Shoe Mount Brackets
1 - Impact Light Kit bag (Nik: should hold the whole circus)

B&H #COR756 Background Support System $89

2 - 8.5 Aluminum Stands
Cross bar
Travel case

I read on the alienbee site about some nice fabric, so I think of paying a visit to a local fabric store, should do the decent backdrop for $20..40..

I don't seem to be able to find el cheapo hair light..:-( Will look more...

---
Does this setup make any sense to you pro guys?

Shay Stephens · May 20, 2005

Hot lights are better for studio work, harder to use for location work. But that is not to say one cannot use hot lights successfully on location. You will need AC power however, which is not always available.

The light stands are short. Look for something in the 8-10 foot range to get more versatility in where you can place the light relative to the heads of people.

The umbrellas are nice, I like the black covered/shoot through type. Very versatile.

I like the umbrella brackets.

Cases are cases for the most part. I like to use rolling cases myself since it is often a long walk to carry a heavy bag.

As far as backgrounds go, they are a major pain in the butt to use on location. If you must use a background, one of the collapsible types is easier to deal with, and ideally, no backgrounds will be used, instead, using the environment of the venue usually makes for more meaningful location backgrounds anyway.

Location work and studio work are different animals for sure. As far as hair lights for location work, I would probably opt for using the second light as a hair/accent light and using a reflector for fill instead of using three lights (main, fill, accent). The less equipment you can take with you on location, the happier you will wind up being, and the quicker you can setup and tear down.

Fabric stores are a great place for backgrounds. But the problem you may run into is that they are usually limited to single portraits (headshots to 3/4 length) because you can't get fabric wide enough to do much more. Regular muslin backgrounds are both long and wide to let you shoot full length and groups, and all that fabric and the painting can add up to a pricey little number.

Oh, by the way, lighting is expensive and complicated. There is no getting around that, if anyone tells you otherwise, they are trying to sell you something, or have no experience themselves

ian408 · May 20, 2005

Another thing not on the list. If you plan on setting lights, especially if they'll
be boomed or are large (like a softbox/brolly), you need to make sure they
don't go anywhere. You should add some sandbags to your list. Also, at
Home Depot or OSH, pick up some clamps to secure cords to stands,
background to stands, whatever. And if you aren't going wireless, a few
rolls of gaffer's tape (don't use duct tape!) to tape the cords to the floor.

Like Shay says, the stands aren't tall enough. I'd get two stands at least
13' (for backgrounds) and the other two at least 10'. You may not get a
choice with the kit though.

Look forward to seeing a few shots as you get ready!

Ian

Nikolai · May 20, 2005

Shay,
Once again, I *really* appreciate your time and your advice.
You made me thinking and that's usually good:-)

Which means I have other questions though (if you don't mind)

You said "hot lights".. What would be not "hot"? Why's one better than the other?

Do I need a "continuos" light or a "strobe" (which is like a flash unit, right?)? Or a combination?

If I buy all the parts separately (stands, booms, lights, umbrellas, reflectors, etc) - what kind of connectors would I need? Are they all standard, or they all required some additional part to interconnect?

Arrgh, too many questions.. And this comment of yours that it's complicated and expensive.. How am I supposed to *start*? There is no way I can spend 3..5 Gs on this thing, it's an overkill...:-(

Thanks alot again!

Nikolai · May 20, 2005

Ian,
Thank you very, very much, I do appreciate your time and your sharing..
I didn't even know about that gaffer's tape - but now I do:-)
I got the "hint" about the stands' height, clamps and bags..

Man, so many things to learn..

OK, I need to digest this!

Thanks!

pathfinder · May 20, 2005

Nikolai wrote:

Thank you very, very much, I do appreciate your time and your sharing..
I didn't even know about that gaffer's tape - but now I do:-)
I got the "hint" about the stands' height, clamps and bags..

Man, so many things to learn..

OK, I need to digest this!

Thanks!

Nik, Adorama sells a wedding kit with two strobes, 10ft stands, umbrelllas, with modelling lights for about ~$600. I bought the Flashpopint II version to shoot choirs and church functions. But it does have cords. I have given thought to a 12v battery with an 500watt inverter to sove this though. YOu might give this a look. Having control of the light solves so many problems with location shooting.
As Shay says, an expsoure meter is helpful, but a little pre shoot trial with your histogram will also help a lot.

Nikolai · May 20, 2005

Thanks, PF!

pathfinder wrote:

Nik, Adorama sells a wedding kit with two strobes, 10ft stands, umbrelllas, with modelling lights for about ~$600. I bought the Flashpopint II version to shoot choirs and church functions. But it does have cords. I have given thought to a 12v battery with an 500watt inverter to sove this though. YOu might give this a look. Having control of the light solves so many problems with location shooting.
As Shay says, an expsoure meter is helpful, but a little pre shoot trial with your histogram will also help a lot.

I will check it out!

Nikolai · May 20, 2005

Guys
First of all , Id' like to thank all of you for your time and the info/knowledge you shared.

However, with me being such a n00b in this aspect, I am still not sure what I need to get:-(
But I know that I need to get some for the gig in question.

I wonder if any of you would agree to perform a "together online-phone shopping" with me over the weekend?

The idea is:

We agree on a time which is most convenient for you
I call you
We discuss a few basic things over the phone (like what kind of light, etc.) and get an idea of the "kit"
We navigate to the same online store or a couple of them (b&h, adorama, alienbee, etc)
We go through the discussed kit list
You help me to choose each particular item(s)
We're done!

I think 30 min would be plenty, maybe even less, I'm not a person who goes for malls for hours, I'm more like "get in, buy it, get out", even with electronics, if you can believe that (OK, I *can* spend an hour or two in Fry's or Best Buy, but that's when I'm simply browsing:-).

I know I'm asking alot...

Your help will be much appreciated!
TIA

tmlphoto · May 20, 2005

Nikolai wrote:

I will check it out!

Hot lights or continuous lighting is kind of the old way of shooting. I have no experience with them, but I think you will be happier with strobes. When used with modeling lights they should work very well. I agree with Shay that less is better, so try to simplify your equipment and setup. I agree with Path about not absolutely needing a light meter. I generally guess at my initial settings and then adjust the strobes by taking some quick test shots and chimping the histogram and the image on the LCD. This works pretty well for basic lighting setups. Remember to put you camera on manual and adjust the lighting with the output from the strobes. Your shutter speed won't really effect the shot and your aperture should be chosen based on the FOV you want. For group shots I usually stop down some to ensure that everyone is in focus. I'm sure Shay has more knowledge about this aspect of shooting with strobes. As I said before you are opening up a whole new set of variable to contend with. I would do a test setup and get some experience with it before I would take into the field.

Nikolai · May 20, 2005

Thomas,

tmlphoto wrote:

Hot lights or continuous lighting is kind of the old way of shooting. I have no experience with them, but I think you will be happier with strobes. When used with modeling lights they should work very well. I agree with Shay that less is better, so try to simplify your equipment and setup. I agree with Path about not absolutely needing a light meter. I generally guess at my initial settings and then adjust the strobes by taking some quick test shots and chimping the histogram and the image on the LCD. This works pretty well for basic lighting setups. Remember to put you camera on manual and adjust the lighting with the output from the strobes. Your shutter speed won't really effect the shot and your aperture should be chosen based on the FOV you want. For group shots I usually stop down some to ensure that everyone is in focus. I'm sure Shay has more knowledge about this aspect of shooting with strobes. As I said before you are opening up a whole new set of variable to contend with. I would do a test setup and get some experience with it before I would take into the field.

This is great, very instructive..

Always "wanted to know but was afraid to ask": What's the "modeling lights"? Are they part of the "strobes"? Are they separate? How exactly do I use them?
Also - how do I trigger those strobes by my Sony 828 (I may also have a drebel 300 with a kit lens which I plan to borrow from a friend)? By that fancy radio trnsmitter Shay has? I guess strobes differ by the method of triggering, so I need to make a decision before buying..

Too many questions..darn..

Once I get the setup, I will definitely try it at home first (I have a very nice model who likes to pose:

this is Helen readying to play Mercedes:-)

Thanks a lot!

ian408 · May 20, 2005

A modeling light is always on low power light that helps visualize where the
strobe is aimed. It's a handy thing

Nikolai · May 20, 2005

so it's a part of any strobe?

ian408 wrote:

A modeling light is always on low power light that helps visualize where the
strobe is aimed. It's a handy thing

Or they maybe w/o it? And if I use an umbrella - how would it work then?

patch29 · May 20, 2005

I would try and get to a local retailer to look at some of the options in person, so you know what everyone is talking about.

Calumet Photo should be local to you and have some very nice strobe equipment to show you. Their house brand strobe units are very nice and give you decent value. They serve professionals and should be able to give you very good guidance.
Their pricing is good and they will often match B+H, at least if you call in an order.

White Lightning is another option for affordable strobe gear.

patch29 · May 20, 2005

Most strobe heads have a modeling light, halogen/incandecent bulb and a flash tube, typically the modeling light is in the center and the flash tube will surround the modeling light.

Shay Stephens · May 20, 2005

Regardless of what lights you decide on, there are a few things that are standard. You need light stands. They need to be tall enough to reach over peoples heads. I have 10 footers, but at times, I wish I had taller. For me 10 footers are a compromise on size and weight for location work and portability.

Depending on the light you get, you may or may not need an umbrella adapter. Some lights have it built in, some don't. They basically allow the light to tilt up and down, and have an opening that an umbrella can mount to. My Sunpak 555 flashes do not have one built in, so I need to have them. They connect to the top of the light stand, and the light connects to the top of the umbrella adapter.

You need a light next. Hot lights are typically incandescent lights that are on continuously. Flash units as you know only fire off for an instant. Hot lights need an AC power connection, flash units can be battery powered. I can usually go all day on a single set of batteries in my lights as long as I am shooting at 1/8 power or less. I don't want to unduly sway you against hot lights, but in my opinion, flash is better suited for location work.

There are studio type flash units (AC powered) and battery powered flash units. I have both the studio type (alienbees) and the battery powered type (Sunpak 555). The 555's don't have a modeling light, but they are more portable, and I always opt to use them on location rather than the studio lights. The 555's have a long handle, which is not really ideal for umbrella usage. And I continue to look for something better suited for me. As with most things here, you have to make compromises with everything hehehe.

Next comes light modifiers. Your light, unmodified, will have a hard shadow transition (not inherently bad, but not always desirable either). At times you may want to modify the light to have a softer shadow edge transition. In that case, something as simple as an umbrella can serve you very well. As mentioned above, the umbrella mounts to the light (if so equipped) or the umbrella adapter. You point the light into the umbrella and the light bounces out of the umbrella, effectively increasing the size of the light source and making the shadows softer.

Another option that is more complicated is a softbox. Softboxes require more setup time and different mounting. You need what is called a speed ring. The speed ring mounts to the light stand or the umbrella adapter (depending on type) and the light mounts to one side of the speed ring and the softbox to the other side. It allows the light to connect to and fire into the softbox. The light bounces around inside and through diffusers until it finally exits the softbox now large and as diffused as it can get for the size of the softbox. If you are just starting out however, I would stick to umbrellas to start with.

Next, you need a way to trigger the lights. This can be as simple as using a long sync cord from camera to light. However, location work is murder with sync cords. Try to avoid this like the plague. The next option is optical triggering. While this does work, it is not always reliable enough on location in varying lighting situations and other peoples flash going off triggering your lights. The most reliable method is to trigger the lights with radio signals. There are more and more manufacturers now coming out with radio units of various prices ranges, triggering distances, and triggering features. So do some homework here to find the right one for you.

The triggering method you choose and the device you decide on in particular will determine what kind of trigger cord you will need to connect the trigger to the light. These are short little things, usually around 6-12 inches or so.

Now as far as deciding on what to get, that is a hard one, because in the beginning, you just want light, and don't care how, or who, or what makes it. You see all these big price tags, and you just want to get a cheap kit to start with, with the plan of getting better in the future.

Here is the problem with that plan. You will wind up spending more money and getting poorer results than if you had just spent the time to figure it all out ahead of time. In my opinion, getting a single light in the configuration you will ultimately need is far more useful and beneficial than getting a larger kit that does not fit as well and will need replacing after your first unsatisfactory result using them.

If you buy what you really need, in smaller quantities, you can always get more later. Start with a single light setup to start, then get a second light setup, and then later still a third light. Three lights for me are the most versatile, the most bang for the buck if you will. I often use just a single light for portraits and some group shots and small venue work, two lights for some group and larger venue work, and a three light setup for lighting up very large venues has done very well for me. I rarely if ever need a fourth light.

So don't think you need to have it all now, build up your lighting kit in stages. Get what you really need and resist the urge to buy something cheap and easy, because most likely it will wind up being neither

Nikolai wrote:

Which means I have other questions though (if you don't mind)

patch29 · May 20, 2005

I found a couple of online lighting instruction sites. They are put together by manufacturers, who want to sell their product, but take a look at the techniques they are using and you can substitute other manufacturers items.

Photoflex Lighting School

Elinchrom Tips

Nikolai · May 20, 2005

Shay, I'm absolutely and totally speechless!
Thank you so much!

I cannot properly express my gratitude for this awesome Lighting 101.
I know - from being a pretty high end pro in my own trade - how hard is to explain those somewhat complex things to a total rookie.. And I can only imagine how valuable your time is, so I totally appreciate your sparing it on my silly requests.. I would like to assure you that this lesson won't go in vain.

Funny, it looks like the lighting set would cost more than a new camera.. Definitely funny considering that all I have is 828.. May be I should bite the bullet and get 20D at least with akit lens.. Otherwise it's almost like having George Lucas' studio setup to shoot with a cellphone..:):
Cheers!

Nikolai · May 20, 2005

THank you very much!

patch29 wrote:

I found a couple of online lighting instruction sites. They are put together by manufacturers, who want to sell their product, but take a look at the techniques they are using and you can substitute other manufacturers items.

Photoflex Lighting School

Elinchrom Tips

I really appreciate the time, efforts and willingness to go extra mile you and the others do to help me.

The least I can do is to use all this lore of shared knowledge, follow the lead and actually do something that would make a difference..

I guess that gig of mine would be *way* upside down considering all the investments I need to make

Portable lighting: advice needed

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