PC / Mac

gubbs

The time has come to start thinking about a new home computer as mine is 5 years old and struggling. I use it mainly for photo's (storage & Post), music (storing/playing MP3's through my Hifi, burning stuff for the car etc), web browsing and the odd letter, etc.....
first question... what are the pros & cons of Mac's against PC's? and secondly what sort of minimum spec in either should I be looking at?

Cheers

Jon

cletus

gubbs wrote:

The time has come to start thinking about a new home computer as mine is 5 years old and struggling. I use it mainly for photo's (storage & Post), music (storing/playing MP3's through my Hifi, burning stuff for the car etc), web browsing and the odd letter, etc.....
first question... what are the pros & cons of Mac's against PC's? and secondly what sort of minimum spec in either should I be looking at?

Cheers

Jon

Ahhh, a question for the ages. One of the true classics, right up there with

• Canon or Nikon?
• Film or digital?
• Dave or Sammy?
• Less filling or tastes great?

Although I'm a PC guy, for what you've described I'd say go with a Mac. I'll have to defer to someone else for the spec you would want in a Mac for photo work.

:lurk

rutt

I have a g4 powerbook 17 which I bought to run photoshop, mostly. For work, I run linux on a PC notebook. And yes, I get forced to deal with windows and have even used windows photoshop. So I have quite a bit of overall experience with this issue.

As a photographer, I really really wanted to love my mac, but:

1. Although the screen is big it isn't very high resolution. My PC notebook has WUXGA which is 1920x1200. The top of the line g4 17 inch powerbook is only 1440x900.
2. There seems to be a bug with mounting CF cards. Often this freezes my computer. It always takes a long time. This happens with both a PC Card reader and a Firewire reader. I corresponded with cmr164 who seemed to actually know somthing about this. (Charles, if you read this, pitch in.) Everyone else in the world claims it doesn't/can't happen.
3. Apples are slow compared to pcs. I know you will get all kinds of opinions on this. But it really isn't an opinion kind of thing. I know a lot about processors and belive me, it's true. The difference is minimized by some relative strengths in apple's packaging and sortware, but really it's stil there.
4. My powerbook isn't really that sturdy compared to my pc. It's really cool that it's so nice and silver and thin and all. But it keeps getting misaligned and then it won't close and stay closed and has to go to the apple store to be "readjusted".
5. The powerbook has limited battery life compared to the best available in the PC world. Many PCs allow you to remove the cd drive and replace with a second battery. This can be important if you want to bring the thing on a shoot.

On the other hand, the mac has a couple of advantages that are pretty meaningful:

1. Built in full sized firewire. This means it can power a firewire device. My PC (and I think most notebooks) have the smaller kind of plug that can access, but not power. There are hacks for solving this, but they are not great.
2. Photoshop for mac is better than same for pc, IMHO. There is at least one objective way in which this is true. Photoshop CS needs activation on pcs but not on macs. The activation thing is bound to be trouble at some point.
3. If you want iPhoto, your decision is made for you. But if you are onboard with photoshop, you won't be using iPhoto very much.

If you are already comfortable with one platform and don't love computers, then stick with it.

cmr164

rutt wrote:

I have a g4 powerbook 17 which I bought to run photoshop, mostly. For work, I run linux on a PC notebook. And yes, I get forced to deal with windows and have even used windows photoshop. So I have quite a bit of overall experience with this issue.

Since I was invited to the party My background is that of an O/S developer/architect with experience in designing digital imaging systems and cameras as well as developing internals for multiple UNIX O/S's. The quick summary is to go for a Mac.

Now to address the issues below.

rutt wrote:

As a photographer, I really really wanted to love my mac, but:

1. Although the screen is big it isn't very high resolution. My PC notebook has WUXGA which is 1920x1200. The top of the line g4 17 inch powerbook is only 1440x900.

The resolution is less than a comparable Vaio but 1440x900 with a 17" screen gives nice sized pixels. The fact that the Powerbook's DVI port allows one to hook up a 2nd screen easily adds enough real estate for even the most demanding photoshop users. Apple's choice of side by side or mirrored displays is done very well indeed.

1. There seems to be a bug with mounting CF cards. Often this freezes my computer. It always takes a long time. This happens with both a PC Card reader and a Firewire reader. I corresponded with cmr164 who seemed to actually know somthing about this. (Charles, if you read this, pitch in.) Everyone else in the world claims it doesn't/can't happen.

This happened to me after CF cards had gotten corrupted and the system seemed to just hang with only the mouse active. Power cycling "seemed" to be indicated but was actually the wrong thing to do. What I found was that the system needed to just sit and spend time (a long time!) with the card once and then it would be ok. As a driver developer, I definitely regard this as a bug. It has not happened to me in the past 9 months or so. Possibly because of Apple updates to MacOSX 10.2.X or possibly because I am no longer sticking CF cards into whatever Windows system that was screwing with them.

1. Apples are slow compared to pcs. I know you will get all kinds of opinions on this. But it really isn't an opinion kind of thing. I know a lot about processors and belive me, it's true. The difference is minimized by some relative strengths in apple's packaging and sortware, but really it's stil there.

Yes and no. Software that is written for the Apple is faster. The benchmarks that used GCC showed that to be the case. The Wintel trick compiler that was tuned for the benchmarks was of course faster but an independent GCC showed the reality. That said, a lot of S/W was written for Wintel and the Apple version just crudely brought over and is slower on the Mac. PS on the Mac is as fast or faster and surprisingly so is Office and various games. With the G4 1ghz (and faster) and the G5 machines I do not think speed is a problem with any s/w.

1. My powerbook isn't really that sturdy compared to my pc. It's really cool that it's so nice and silver and thin and all. But it keeps getting misaligned and then it won't close and stay closed and has to go to the apple store to be "readjusted".

Here I just have to disagree. Aside from the stupid rubber feet, my PB17" is sturdier than the Sony Vaio and Toshiba notebooks that I had before it. And it has had a lot of trips on the back of my ZX6R.

1. The powerbook has limited battery life compared to the best available in the PC world. Many PCs allow you to remove the cd drive and replace with a second battery. This can be important if you want to bring the thing on a shoot.

On 3 separate occasions during the past year I have gotten more that 5 hours out of a single battery while working non-stop. Dim the screen, make sure that the built in Bluetooth and WiFi 11g are turned off and it is a slam dunk. (this was without the system ever being idle)

rutt wrote:

On the other hand, the mac has a couple of advantages that are pretty meaningful:

1. Built in full sized firewire. This means it can power a firewire device. My PC (and I think most notebooks) have the smaller kind of plug that can access, but not power. There are hacks for solving this, but they are not great.

And the Mac has both firewire 400 and firwire 800 as well as USB2.0

1. Photoshop for mac is better than same for pc, IMHO. There is at least one objective way in which this is true. Photoshop CS needs activation on pcs but not on macs. The activation thing is bound to betrouble at some point.

Read the microsoft EULA and you will realise that you can never agree to its terms. Really read it sometime. The PS activation on Wintel is almost innocent compared to what you agree to just to run Windows. This area is a big big big plus for the Mac side.

rutt wrote:

1. If you want iPhoto, your decision is made for you. But if you are onboard with photoshop, you won't be using iPhoto very much.

If you are already comfortable with one platform and don't love computers, then stick with it.

I did not have an Apple system for +20 years, using various UNIX boxes and multiple windows versions in both English and Japanese. The Mac experience has been so good as to be astounding.

pathfinder

rutt wrote:

I have a g4 powerbook 17 which I bought to run photoshop, mostly. For work, I run linux on a PC notebook. And yes, I get forced to deal with windows and have even used windows photoshop. So I have quite a bit of overall experience with this issue.

As a photographer, I really really wanted to love my mac, but:

1. Although the screen is big it isn't very high resolution. My PC notebook has WUXGA which is 1920x1200. The top of the line g4 17 inch powerbook is only 1440x900.
2. There seems to be a bug with mounting CF cards. Often this freezes my computer. It always takes a long time. This happens with both a PC Card reader and a Firewire reader. I corresponded with cmr164 who seemed to actually know somthing about this. (Charles, if you read this, pitch in.) Everyone else in the world claims it doesn't/can't happen.
3. Apples are slow compared to pcs. I know you will get all kinds of opinions on this. But it really isn't an opinion kind of thing. I know a lot about processors and belive me, it's true. The difference is minimized by some relative strengths in apple's packaging and sortware, but really it's stil there.
4. My powerbook isn't really that sturdy compared to my pc. It's really cool that it's so nice and silver and thin and all. But it keeps getting misaligned and then it won't close and stay closed and has to go to the apple store to be "readjusted".
5. The powerbook has limited battery life compared to the best available in the PC world. Many PCs allow you to remove the cd drive and replace with a second battery. This can be important if you want to bring the thing on a shoot.

On the other hand, the mac has a couple of advantages that are pretty meaningful:

1. Built in full sized firewire. This means it can power a firewire device. My PC (and I think most notebooks) have the smaller kind of plug that can access, but not power. There are hacks for solving this, but they are not great.
2. Photoshop for mac is better than same for pc, IMHO. There is at least one objective way in which this is true. Photoshop CS needs activation on pcs but not on macs. The activation thing is bound to be trouble at some point.
3. If you want iPhoto, your decision is made for you. But if you are onboard with photoshop, you won't be using iPhoto very much.

If you are already comfortable with one platform and don't love computers, then stick with it.

I think this absolutely a great question - PC vs Mac for photographers. I have had such a belly full of the viruses, worms, security updates and reupdates from Microsoft that I have seriously thought of a G5 Mac as my next computer. And I am aware that that means I will have to REPURCHASE Photoshop because Adobe will not give me credit for having purchased PS 5.0, PS 6.0, PS 7.0 And last but not least PS CS for Windows.
So even tho I have used PS since 1999, I would be stuck with a NEW purchase if I were to decide to enter the MAC world. Mac fanatics all think their machines are so much faster and cooler than PCs. Interesting to hear that you are not convinced Rutt. I thought G5 Macs were particularly fast for PS. I currently run a P4 2.2Ghz with 1 Gb ram. Seems to work adequately, other than the continous aggravation of worms, viruses, security updates, et al. I thought maybe life would be simpler with a Mac. Now I ma not so convinced any longer.
As for the activation feature of PSCS ( In Windows ONLY no less!!!) - I have already had to call Adobe to have mine reactivated once in addition to the inital start up - I had simply upgraded the drivers for my ATI Radeon 9800. Not changed the card - simply upgraded the video drivers - and bang - PS would not work until reactivated. And then a few nights ago I saws the same dreaded screen again - that I needed to activate Photo shop - this while PS was open and I was working on an image - I lost the editing on the image I was working on and PS shut down. BUT - I just clicked th PS Ikon and PS loaded and ran perfectly without hesitation. But this learning experience of seeing PS shut down right in the middle of working with it because of "lack of activation verification" is downright bizarre and disturbing. Anyone else had this experience yet?

So I am left with no satisfaction it seems - unhappy in Windows but probably not likely to be completely satisfied in the MAc world either. Hmmmm.............. I don't think I would be happy with just GIMP tho...

Baldy

cmr164 wrote:

The Mac experience has been so good as to be astounding.

I have a Mac 17" PowerBook and a Windows XP desktop. My desktop before XP was a Mac G3 running OS 9.

I switched to XP for a desktop because (a) I wasn't crazy about OS 9 and (b) there are a whole lot more games available for XP and my kids love to have LAN parties and play things like Battlefield 1942.

What's changed is OS X is astoundingly good. I like it so very much more than XP for so many reasons, not the least of which is I can just smile as everyone else is worried about viruses and security. The interface, the way Photoshop works, the bundled apps — they are superb. If it weren't for games, my next desktop would definitely be a Mac.

rutt

cmr164 wrote:

I did not have an Apple system for +20 years, using various UNIX boxes and multiple windows versions in both English and Japanese. The Mac experience has been so good as to be astounding.

This was the flame I was looking for. Now you really won't know what to do!

I really wish I could agree with Charles. It's what I wanted to be true when I bought my mac. I tried really hard.

I've also had a lot of this conversation with Charles in private. I do agree with his sentiments. But my experience as a photographer (as opposed to a computer geek, which I also am) hasn't been so great. What I wrote is true. I assume that what Charles wrote is also true. It just shows it's a complex world.

Charles, the benchmarks do speak for themselves. I use a lot of free software and compile with gcc. My mac is about equal to a 1.7 GHz x86. I think that's pretty impressive, but if you want to do some batch processing on a lot of photos, it's slow compared to a fast pc.

rutt

pathfinder wrote:

\
So I am left with no satisfaction it seems - unhappy in Windows but probably not likely to be completely satisfied in the MAc world either. Hmmmm.............. I don't think I would be happy with just GIMP tho...

I don't think you will ever be happy with your computer, which puts in the great majority of people. Only crazy people like Charles, Baldy, and myself have ever experienced moments of computer love (or had astonishingly good experiences with them.)

rutt

Baldy wrote:

What's changed is OS X is astoundingly good. I like it so very much more than XP for so many reasons, not the least of which is I can just smile as everyone else is worried about viruses and security. The interface, the way Photoshop works, the bundled apps — they are superb. If it weren't for games, my next desktop would definitely be a Mac.

I'm like the only guy with a mac who doesn't just love it. So maybe that's what you should buy. But I can't really change my experience. The things I wrote are facts.

pathfinder

rutt wrote:

I'm like the only guy with a mac who doesn't just love it. So maybe that's what you should buy. But I can't really change my experience. The things I wrote are facts.

Now I am REALLY confused - Between CMR164 and Baldy on the one hand - and Rutt on the other - and juimping ship to the Mac is not a cheap thing to do - new box, more memory than standard 512kb, new software, two new lcds to match those on my wintel box desk top - this is a very expensive thing to entertain when I can get a new 3+Ghz wintel box for under $1k, probably 1/5th of what a similar equipped Mac with dual lcd monitors and software will cost. Macs may be nice, but are they really that much nicer?

I guess I'll stick with the viruses and worms in the dungeon....

patch29

I switched to my first mac back in 97. I have no desire to return to a PC. They make me ill to look at. (I did see a hack to make XP look like OS X, that might work ). I realize I may not get the most speed out there, but I am happy with what I have. I currently use a 15" PB as my main machine and run a second monitor. I would love to buy a G5, but waiting for the price to drop or really waiting to see if they can cram one into a Powerbook. That would be sweet. Everything works well for me and I do not feel a software void, so I am not going to worry about it.

One of the best deals in a Mac right now is the new eMac if you do not have any computer gear (monitor). They just did a nice bump in speed, it has a built in 17" CRT, you can max out at 1gb of ram, add a 160 gb hard drive and it now comes with an 8x DVD burner. That is smoking fast (for less than $1500.00). I am tempted to get one just to burn DVD's faster and have a workstation to do basic stuff. For the average consumer who wants to surf the web, write a few papers, email, work on some photos, make your own home movies and burn them to DVD. I think the eMac is a very good deal. Not the coolest or fastest, but more than enough for most folks.

I really enjoy my Mac. I will buy another in the future. They are worth taking a look at. That said depending on what you do a MS XP machine equipped well will do everything a Mac will, maybe not as easily or some stuff might be easier. I won't be looking for a MS based machine any time soon. They would have to come out with something spectacular to make me switch.

There are some good comparison tests, PC vs Mac that can be found here if you are most concerned about the numbers. I put a fair amount of value into how I work with the machine and I feel a Mac is easier to use.

pathfinder

patch29 wrote:

I switched to my first mac back in 97. I have no desire to return to a PC. They make me ill to look at. (I did see a hack to make XP look like OS X, that might work ). I realize I may not get the most speed out there, but I am happy with what I have. I currently use a 15" PB as my main machine and run a second monitor. I would love to buy a G5, but waiting for the price to drop or really waiting to see if they can cram one into a Powerbook. That would be sweet. Everything works well for me and I do not feel a software void, so I am not going to worry about it.

One of the best deals in a Mac right now is the new eMac if you do not have any computer gear (monitor). They just did a nice bump in speed, it has a built in 17" CRT, you can max out at 1gb of ram, add a 160 gb hard drive and it now comes with an 8x DVD burner. That is smoking fast (for less than $1500.00). I am tempted to get one just to burn DVD's faster and have a workstation to do basic stuff. For the average consumer who wants to surf the web, write a few papers, email, work on some photos, make your own home movies and burn them to DVD. I think the eMac is a very good deal. Not the coolest or fastest, but more than enough for most folks.

I really enjoy my Mac. I will buy another in the future. They are worth taking a look at. That said depending on what you do a MS XP machine equipped well will do everything a Mac will, maybe not as easily or some stuff might be easier. I won't be looking for a MS based machine any time soon. They would have to come out with something spectacular to make me switch.

There are some good comparison tests, PC vs Mac that can be found here if you are most concerned about the numbers. I put a fair amount of value into how I work with the machine and I feel a Mac is easier to use.

Much of my frustration with with Win XP boxes is that a brand new one off the show room floor will require 3-8 hours on line to get all the updates and security programs running - a virus detector like Norton, a Firewall like Zonealarm, a new better email client like Eudora. Then you get new stuff along the way - if you are on dial up, I have no idea how you would keep an XP box current. I speak as someone who has built several boxes as well as upgraded Gateways, Dell, and HPs. Hard drives, DR burners, DVV burners, Memory, vido cards - I upgraded and rebuilt them all - but I am just tired of being a maintenance man for a box. I just want a simple tool for working on photos and surfing the web now. The Thrill is gone is all.

I have reservations about doing photo editing with a laptop - Wintel or Apple. I have had several Wintel laptops over the years - my current one is a 2.8Ghz HP - but the screens are so sensitive to head position that I don't trust them for Photo editing. I think Z-Z said he has the same concerns and he uses Powerbooks I believe. I have my current laptop calibrated with Ez Color and their colorimeter - but still find it is not a consistent as my desktop with a good 19 Sharp LCD. Do you find that a Powerbook screen is reliable for image editing and color correction?

Maybe I am just grumpy today is all

patch29

pathfinder wrote:

Do you find that a Powerbook screen is reliable for image editing and color correction?

Mine is pretty good, the newest ones are a little better, brighter and more contrasty. I can do a lot on the laptop and get images pretty close, but I still run a CRT off my laptop to do final corrections, with the PB it makes a very good two monitor setup, ready to go and easy to use.

Apple still issues updates, usually monthly for security and other updates in-between. It is very easy all apples software is usually updated via software update. It does the work in the background and then you have to restart, pretty simple.

cmr164

pathfinder wrote:

... I just want a simple tool for working on photos and surfing the web now. The Thrill is gone is all.

Sounds like you need a Mac

pathfinder wrote:

I have reservations about doing photo editing with a laptop - Wintel or Apple. I have had several Wintel laptops over the years - my current one is a 2.8Ghz HP - but the screens are so sensitive to head position that I don't trust them for Photo editing. I think Z-Z said he has the same concerns and he uses Powerbooks I believe. I have my current laptop calibrated with Ez Color and their colorimeter - but still find it is not a consistent as my desktop with a good 19 Sharp LCD. Do you find that a Powerbook screen is reliable for image editing and color correction?

Maybe I am just grumpy today is all

"...reliable..." yes. Why don't you swing by your local Apple store and take a look. You don't have to buy anymore LCDs than you would if you buy a new wintel, so I don't see your $5k vs $1k analogy. When I moved, I got rid of 12 monitors ranging from 14"-21". I use 2 LCDs and a 17" monitor with a couple of kvm switches to give me a dual display Mac and heads for 8 other systems.

wxwax

Good discussion. Can't say I've regretted staying with a PC. I switched to Mozilla browsers to surf safely. I don't get attachments in my e-mail. So the virus/worm etc. threat feels lessened, although I do run three debug programs every night just in case.

I use the machine to edit in Photoshop CS, occasionally burn CDs and DVDs, surf, e-mail and infrequently, a Word document. It's a 1.6 Pentium, 1gb memory on XP, and it's been stable except for a couple of start-up hangups.

It's plenty fast for me in Photoshop: the only delays are when rendering some filter effects. I've added what feels like a lot of software, and also lots of USB external devices. Other than a slight issue with my printer, everything's run smoothly.

So my basic, uninformed user opinion is that my PC does everything that I want it to do, and I am in no way dissatisfied. At work the artists all work on Macs, and I see a reasonable amount of crashes and reboots. I always tell them that I heard the advantage of Macs was that they don't crash. And they laugh a knowing laugh.

gubbs

Thanks for all the replies,

I was expecting the Mac to come out as a clear favourite and was initially surprised to see Cletus' "Nikon Vs Canon" analogy. I thought it would have been more like Ferrari Vs Fiat where one is obviously superior but at a price.

I was wrong regarding the price and the performance. Looking at the link from patch http://www.robgalbraith.com/bins/multi_page.asp?cid=7-6451-6410 it appears that the Dell 450 has the upper hand, but what a price, £3400 for that spec (oh, that does include a 19" monitor) compared to £2800 for the G5 Dual and £2600 for the Dell 360.

The performance pretty much seems to match the price. Will this apply through the price range?

As far as useabilty is concerned, it looks like the Mac comes out on top, Most of Rutt's complaints seem to be applicable to a powerbook, but the replies prompt a few questions:-
Is the Mac OS more secure, are updates and virus' less of an issue?
I haven't got PS yet, what is the deal with the activation and why is it a problem on the PC?
I currently have a PC so therefore don't have any Mac software, how good is the software bundle, what will I need to cover the basics?

Thanks - Jon :confused

cletus

gubbs wrote:

I haven't got PS yet, what is the deal with the activation and why is it a problem on the PC?
Thanks - Jon :confused

I think how it works is that after you install Photoshop CS you need to go online and register the software, and during the registration process, Adobe provides some sort of code that "activates" Photoshop. Without the activation code, I think PS will only run for 30 days or something.

I didn't have any trouble with it. Maybe some other folks have

As far as security goes, like waxy I've switched from Internet Explorer to Firefox for web browsing, and I'm using Thunderbird for e-mail. I'm also running Zone Alarm (a software firewall). With the Firefox-Thunderbird-Zone Alarm combo, I haven't even had a hint of trouble. On the other hand, back when I was running IE by itself, I had all kinds of problems.

I can't help on the software bundle question for the Mac. The last Mac I used was one of the original Macs (I think it had 512k of RAM).

gypsy77360

Mac
Bought an eMac 2 yrs ago , upped to 512ram , added iLife update , run PSE , never any problems , have over 1000 pics in iphoto, 1000 songs in iTunes , no virus , no spam , NO PROBLEM. Once you go Mac , you'll never go back.

wxwax

One other thing on PS activation... you can do it on the phone if you want. Takes longer, but that way they can't snoop in your computer, were they to be of a mind to do so.

Seamaiden

My boyfriend, CompSci B.S., has been in this business for over 20 years as well. He started off a huge Mac fan, and at this point wouldn't even consider going back to them. He's a PC man all the way.

I've just ordered all the parts to build my youngest boy a pretty decent gaming machine, and, including a Prescott CPU with 1MB Cache 800MHZ fsb (I wish I had such a fast CPU!), Platinum SB sound card, a decent 19" 1920x1140 flatscreen CRT, we're still coming in under $1300 WITH shipping. Oh.. forgot the speaker system, too..
His machine is going to be significantly better than mine (Mom is green with envy, but the boy has earned it).

My own deal with Macs is this: I just couldn't sort the machine well enough to USE it.

AlpineRaven

I am using my 9th Macintosh here since 1996 (I'm a apple person since i was a kid since Macintosh 512) anyway I couldnt resist myself from reading about Apple/PC issues here.

I've noticed some problems with external media cards with USB/Firewire, with Firewire in OS9 crashes during copying files, OSX.3 (Panther) fixes the problem. Using USB 2.0 isn't available in OS9 but it is available in OSX.

So if you're using USB media, I recommend you to use OSX.3 or newer not under OSX.3 due updated for Firewire and USB 1.1 & 2.0 as I do not have any problems reading/writing media files.

Sorry guys i can't tell you more because I haven't yet bought USB Media Card reader to tell you the truth.
Cheers
Alpine

JohnR

Pro-Mac user here

Seamaiden wrote:

My boyfriend, CompSci B.S., has been in this business for over 20 years as well. He started off a huge Mac fan, and at this point wouldn't even consider going back to them. He's a PC man all the way.
My own deal with Macs is this: I just couldn't sort the machine well enough to USE it.

What reasons did he have for not liking Apple? And what do you mean when you say "couldn't sort the machine well enough to USE it"? What does "sort" mean in this context???



Ok...here is my take:
I used to be a Windows user (not PC...as all computers are "personal computers") until I bought my first mac, a G3. Since then, it's been no looking back.

No more dealing with virus/worms/hacks. I don't even own any anti-virus software! Plus...here's a biggie..no blue screen of death!

I now own a dual 2ghz G5 with 2.5GB of ram. Photoshop CS runs fast!! Ease of use, stability and overall pleasure of working with OSX and my G5 makes me very happy. Crash? I haven't had a "crash"/kernel panic/freezeup in over a year....never with this G5. OSX 10.3.3 is by far more stable than OS9 would even dream!

I have a 512MB CF card and a Microtech card reader (USB 1) and have had absolutely no problems. No hanging, nothing. I think those stories of CF readers having problems was maybe limited to certain makes?

The default software that comes free with new macs are very nice and robust apps. iTunes is the best music player. iPhoto is decent, but I don't use it.

The initial cost of a Mac may seem to be higher but the cost of ownership is cheaper. Read this http://www.macvspc.info/ for some good reading.

here is my setup:

Seamaiden

JohnR wrote:

What reasons did he have for not liking Apple? And what do you mean when you say "couldn't sort the machine well enough to USE it"? What does "sort" mean in this context???

I honestly don't think I could give his reasons proper credit, he got pretty technical about Apple features I am simply not familiar with. "Sort" in this context means "figure". I had trouble with my son's (IIRC a G3 too?) from the get-go, could hardly accomplish a thing. Now, remember, I've been using computers for all of three years now. I have trouble learning new technology, but I've gone from a complete Windows idiot to building my own machine (just built a gaming box for my youngest boy today, ohmygod, I want that chassis!) and installing Linux.

Ok...here is my take:
I used to be a Windows user (not PC...as all computers are "personal computers") until I bought my first mac, a G3. Since then, it's been no looking back.

Cool. At least you're not like some folks who've never even tried something, but have to say something bad about it. (And, I do hope I've qualified my answers as someone who couldn't work the Apple well enough to really use it.)

No more dealing with virus/worms/hacks. I don't even own any anti-virus software! Plus...here's a biggie..no blue screen of death!

Well, see, I have the same thing, too. I don't have to buy Apple products, I can buy any PC device or hardware and pretty much use it. That being said, in order to be free of MS, I must keep up with some things, and have to look for my answers (RTFM?). Btw, you didn't happen to read that bit by Billy G. saying he envisions a future where our homes, cars, and just about every aspect of our lives will be run by MS products, did you? My b/f's first question was, "What if your house blue screens??" I laughed.

My only problem with Apple/Mac was simply that I found it very difficult to use. I won't say the problem doesn't lie with me, either.

JohnR

Sorry to hear that you had a hard time. I figured since my 75 year old dad can switch..anyone can

mercphoto

Macs and PCs
Everyone has a different experience with computers. Like the one lady who's boyfriend, the computer pro who started in Macs and switched to PC's, I went the opposite direction.

I started working at Texas Instruments as an Applications Engineer for their PC chip sets, years back. Knew all the BIOS vendors by name, many of the customers, thought PC's were cool and Mac people were dellusional. Then I switched jobs to Motorola working design verfication on the first G4 processor and subsequent parts. I finally caved in to buy a 2nd generation iMac. I was sold and hooked. Now I"m on a 12" PowerBook.

I've discovered what is "cool" about a computer is not in building it, learning it, debugging it, or making it work. What is cool is having the machine always availble, always working, and able to do your chores.

jimf

On Macs, PCs, and laptops
I use PCs all the time ... ran NT, Win2K, and currently run XP on desktops and laptops. XP is actually pretty nice aside from the constant worry about viruses, malware, adware and the like. It's pretty stable and most stuff just works.

I also ran Linux, various versions, on desktops and laptops. Linux is really not there yet when it comes to photographic uses and on laptops various features will be balky if they work at all. Gimp works, but it's a pale shadow of Photoshop. I didn't realize quite how pale until I got Photoshop CS.

If you're looking for best bang for the buck you're going to have a hard time beating a PC with XP. The downside to that is that you're going to spend significantly more time doing system things than you would with any other system ... most particularly doing security patches, but with the cruft that is the Windows registry you can count on the occasional full reinstall. And God help you if one of the really nasty malware or spyware systems gets in there -- like CoolWeb. I spent 14 hours cleaning up an infested XP PC a few weeks ago.

I bought my wife a Ti Powerbook two and a half years ago as a way to stop having to spend significant parts of my free time doing IT support for her. Coming from PCs as she did there was definite adjustment time, and since I hadn't used a Mac since the SE was hot stuff there was a lot of adjustment for me, too. And OS X 10.0 was really weak in some areas (like printer support). And of course we had to track down a lot of applications and buy them all over again.

But, overall, the experience was hugely positive. I almost never have to do IT stuff for her. We haven't had to do a single reinstall, eradicate a single virus or any malware, and the system pretty much just keeps working. I liked her laptop so much that when my Linux laptop died I bought myself a 12" powerbook.

Now, many people will tell you that 12" is just not big enough, and we have one guy here saying that you can't trust laptop screens' accuracy. Both of those are pretty much true.

But nobody says you have to use the built-in LCD all the time. I plug it into a 17" 1280x1024 LCD when I want a big(ger), more accurate screen ... and still have the good battery life and great portability of the 12" versus a 15" or 17" model.

The big performance limiter is the internal drive. Add (and use) an external firewire drive and the system gets a lot snappier. I pretty much use the internal drive for holding apps and temporary copies of photographs.

Contrary to what some people have said or implied, PC laptop quality is not superior to Mac laptop quality in my experience. Build quality of the Macs is first rate, beating even the exceptional Sony Vaio and IBM Thinkpad lines to say nothing of the crappy Dell and HP notebooks. They're durable, well designed things. But, more importantly in my book, MacOS works a hell of a lot more cleanly on laptops than any Windows variant I've ever run (and that would be ... all of them).

If you want a big fast desktop I would seriously consider XP, despite its added IT costs. (And buy a hardware firewall and put it between the box and the net -- you absolutely need it.) But if you're looking at laptops I'd go Mac all the way, there's nothing better.

wxwax

Jim, what's an example of a hardware firewall?

jimf

wxwax wrote:

Jim, what's an example of a hardware firewall?

Cable/DSL routers are pretty effective home firewalls, just make sure NAT (Network Address Translation) is turned on. Seeing as you can buy one for less than the price of personal firewall software (assuming you use Windows, everything else has that in the box) and get multiple computer capability to boot, it's hard for me not to recommend them.

wxwax

Thanks. I'm relying on the free version of Zone Alarm, and Mozilla's obscurity, to protect me.

Seamaiden

Routers, firewalls, LANs and WANs are my beau's specialty. NAT is better than nothing, but what you really need is a router that actually inspects all packets (stateful packet inspection). Netgear is what my folks and I have just gone with, as Linksys.. well, my descriptions of Linksys are a bit colorful and not appropriate.

NAT can easily be broken (I know this as someone spoofed our MAC address and targeted one of my boys' computers). NAT is not a true firewall, but SPI is.

cmr164

Seamaiden wrote:

Routers, firewalls, LANs and WANs are my beau's specialty. NAT is better than nothing, but what you really need is a router that actually inspects all packets (stateful packet inspection). Netgear is what my folks and I have just gone with, as Linksys.. well, my descriptions of Linksys are a bit colorful and not appropriate.

NAT can easily be broken (I know this as someone spoofed our MAC address and targeted one of my boys' computers). NAT is not a true firewall, but SPI is.

Linksys has become one of the good guys by releasing their firmware source to the public and encouraging Linux/freeware flashes that offer full features.

http://www.sveasoft.com/modules/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=802

http://openwrt.ksilebo.net/