Need help on outside photo shoot ~

marikris · February 25, 2009

I'm supposed to take pictures of the Fashion Club in my college, and the club president has very specific location and times. She wants to have the models (with clothing made by a local fashion designer) posing outside the college campus at a certain location and she wants to start at 11AM.

I have always tended to steer clear of the noon lighting, choosing the softer afternoon light instead. In your experience, should I bring a reflector or will a flash do? I should probably say that atm my flash is still firmly "on" camera (I haven't the gear to get it "off".) What else should I consider?

Thank you guys for any help you provide

Scott_Quier · February 25, 2009

Are you getting compensated for the shoot? If not, then I think I might take a pass on this one. This just sounds like a train wreck.

Take a good look at the location. Is there any chance that you'll encounter dappled light - as in shade from trees but the shade isn't complete? If yes and the pres is not open to moving the location - take a pass or explain (in writing) to the her that she's asking for trouble and why.

Same thing for the time of day - that's just asking for trouble.

Shooting with noon sun is going to present lots of problems. If you shoot with off-camera light, you are going to need a decent amount of it to offset the need for a very small aperture - I would guess you are going to need at least f/8 lighting at the position of the models to act as fill.

Depending on your distance between the camera and the models, your flash may have a problem keeping up. You'll either be shooting at a small aperture (f/8 or smaller is my guess) or you'll need to use high-speed shutter sync. Of course, HSS requires the flash to work extra hard and you still have to be quite close to the models 'cause your GN becomes quite a bit small than "normal".

As you suggest, a reflector might work. But it'll have to be quite large and will require an assistant that understands how to reflect light. You won't be able to handle the reflector and shoot at the same time.

Qarik · February 25, 2009

look for some shaded areas to bring the models over to and hope for some cloud cover. Other then that good luck.

divamum · February 25, 2009

What part of the world are you in, ie can you count on sunshine? If so, I agree with Quarik - find some shade, and get a reflector (probably a large one) to bounce the light back onto them. If you can't get hold of/afford a full-size reflector, get large foamboard sheets and use that.

Otherwise, if you're a college student (photography student, or other major?), could you borrow something FROM the photo department to use as lighting (and if you can't, could the Fashion Club borrow it for you?)

Just some possible suggestions....

marikris · February 25, 2009

Gosh, Scoot, Qarik, you guys bring up a lot of good points. No, sadly, this is not paid but voluntary, which is why I am writing an email to the club pres. at this very moment to tell her about the noon light. Going to ask her also where she wants to shoot so I can look at the light in the next couple of days. I'm also going to scout the campus for other good locations. I think I may aim to start the shoot around 3PM as well. What do you guys think?

I actually volunteered for the experience since I have only really done an outside shoot once...which is why I'm so nervous lol. I just want this to work so badly =(

marikris · February 25, 2009

divamum wrote:

Otherwise, if you're a college student (photography student, or other major?), could you borrow something FROM the photo department to use as lighting (and if you can't, could the Fashion Club borrow it for you?)

Just some possible suggestions....

Those are great ideas. Thank you, divamum. I've completely forgot I have access to some lighting equipment. What kind of power supply do you guys use, though, out in the open?

Qarik · February 25, 2009

oh..one last thing. I have just finished reading "Understanding Exposure" and one piece of advice sticks out for shooting on sunny days. 1st pic your aperture to say the "who cares" f/8 setting then point your camera to the blue sky well away from the sun ("brother blue sky" as it were). Look at your on camera meter and set shutter speed accordingly to get a good 1st cut correct exposure. If the shutter speed is too long (say more then 1/30 sec) then readjust your aperture so you can be shoot faster. Then snap away knowing you are pretty close to ideal.

This is of course with no flash or just a weak fill flash.

Scott_Quier · February 25, 2009

marikris wrote:

I think I may aim to start the shoot around 3PM as well. What do you guys think?

Depending on where you are and how many poses/models in the shoot, you may not have enough time between 3:00 and sundown. There's a better than even chance that things are going to take longer than you expect and .... the more people involved, the better the chances that things will go longer than planned.

marikris · February 27, 2009

quarik: I have that book! I will dig it up now, but I do remember reading about the "who cares" apertures. Thanks for reminding me!

scott: I keep asking her these questions and haven't received the right answers yet. She did reserve as a place indoors after I wrote talking about the noon lighting. She moved the time to 12pm (lol) and told me to plan to shoot outside unless they deem the lighting bad...and this after I kept asking how many models were coming so I can bring the studio lights and have them set up before they get there. They had a photographer last year. From the way they're dealing with me, I guess that photographer didn't have much objections with location and time, which makes me feel like I'm being pesky lol. But I don't just want to take pictures - I want to take good pictures -_-

Anyway, I went to the location they want to shoot and took a couple of pics of my friend. It was afternoon, around 3 with cloudy skies. My flash was out of batteries (oops). What do you guys think in terms of composition and pp?

1.

2. (I probably should have gotten rid of the stray hairs on her forehead)

And for #3-4, what do you guys think of just the pp?
3. Just goofing off.

4.

Thanks in advance!

gmonkeh · February 27, 2009

Hi Marikris,

You mind if I ask what you're shooting with ie. camera/lens? And are you able to post some exif info on the shots.

Something just seems off to me. It might just be the web conversion.

Alex

marikris · February 27, 2009

Hi, Alex:

Sure, but noob question here: should I just post the originals? I'm not sure how to get the exif otherwise.

Also, I was shooting with 5dii and 24-70L.

For some reason, photoshop wouldn't save as jpg - I had to "save for web and devices" in order for it to not be tiff. I shoot raw, but Lightroom and photoshop CS3 won't open the cr2 files straight from my card, saying it's not a format it knows. So I open it with the software that came with the 5dii, then transfer to photoshop as a tiff. If there's an easier way, I'd love to know lol.

EDIT- Is this what you mean? I found the data for the first shot:

File Name IMG_3925.CR2
Camera Model Canon EOS 5D Mark II
Firmware Firmware Version 1.0.7
Shooting Date/Time 2/26/2009 3:59:42 PM
Owner's Name
Shooting Mode Manual Exposure
Tv( Shutter Speed ) 1/2000
Av( Aperture Value ) 5.0
Metering Mode Evaluative Metering
ISO Speed 400
Auto ISO Speed ON
Lens EF24-70mm f/2.8L USM
Focal Length 70.0mm
Image Size 5616x3744
Image Quality RAW
Flash Off
FE lock OFF
White Balance Mode Cloudy
AF Mode Manual focusing
Picture Style Faithful
Sharpness 0
Contrast 0
Saturation 0
Color tone 0
Color Space sRGB
Long exposure noise reduction 0:Off
High ISO speed noise reduction 0:Standard
Highlight tone priority 0:Disable
Auto Lighting Optimizer 0:Standard
Peripheral illumination correction Enable
File Size 23921KB
Dust Delete Data No
Drive Mode Single shooting
Live View Shooting OFF

Llywellyn · February 27, 2009

A workaround for your PS-saving problem: if your TIFF is a 16-bit file, PS won't have "JPG" in your Save As options. I usually get around this by saving my TIFF file then changing it to an 8-bit file so I can Save As JPG. I then close the 8-bit TIFF file without saving (because I want to keep my 16-bit version).

I don't understand this quirk (someone more technically able than I may be able to explain), I just found a workaround if I get stuck in that situation.

Qarik · February 27, 2009

did you mean for the red/orange cast on the photos? imo it is not entirely flattering. Check your WB setting make sure that is on the sunny setting or at least auto. Also I think your DOF was bit shallow because ears are out of focus in the 1st 2 shots. That is fine if you are going for that but again not entirely flattering for a model type shoot imo.

With 24-70mm I think f/8 would be reasonable aperture to get you better DOF even on tight head shots.

I do like the BW of the 1st shot over the color though.

marikris · February 27, 2009

Llywellyn wrote:

A workaround for your PS-saving problem: if your TIFF is a 16-bit file, PS won't have "JPG" in your Save As options. I usually get around this by saving my TIFF file then changing it to an 8-bit file so I can Save As JPG. I then close the 8-bit TIFF file without saving (because I want to keep my 16-bit version).

I don't understand this quirk (someone more technically able than I may be able to explain), I just found a workaround if I get stuck in that situation.

Oh thank you so much for this - I was going crazy trying to figure out how to save a jpg yesterday! But tell me, do you also have a problem opening the raw file in photoshop? Do you also open it up with the canon software and then transfer the tiff to photoshop, or is this just me?

marikris · February 27, 2009

Qarik wrote:

did you mean for the red/orange cast on the photos? imo it is not entirely flattering. Check your WB setting make sure that is on the sunny setting or at least auto. Also I think your DOF was bit shallow because ears are out of focus in the 1st 2 shots. That is fine if you are going for that but again not entirely flattering for a model type shoot imo.

With 24-70mm I think f/8 would be reasonable aperture to get you better DOF even on tight head shots.

I do like the BW of the 1st shot over the color though.

Thanks for the cc Qarik. I did process it this way, though the original image was already pretty warm. It was a cloudy day so I had set the WB on camera for cloudy. Because I could only open up the raw using canon's software, I did set it there for cloudy as well. Should I have done differently? Maybe I'll try Auto on the software.

I will keep f/8 in mind next time, definitely.

Llywellyn · February 27, 2009

marikris wrote:

Oh thank you so much for this - I was going crazy trying to figure out how to save a jpg yesterday! But tell me, do you also have a problem opening the raw file in photoshop? Do you also open it up with the canon software and then transfer the tiff to photoshop, or is this just me?

I shoot Nikon and use Lightroom.

I did have problems with LR when I got my D700, but I just had to grab an updated camera profile and it worked fine for importing the RAWs. You could try just using ACR in Photoshop and saving yourself a step, or double-check the camera profiles are updated for your Canon software.

marikris · February 27, 2009

Qarik wrote:

did you mean for the red/orange cast on the photos? imo it is not entirely flattering. Check your WB setting make sure that is on the sunny setting or at least auto. Also I think your DOF was bit shallow because ears are out of focus in the 1st 2 shots. That is fine if you are going for that but again not entirely flattering for a model type shoot imo.

With 24-70mm I think f/8 would be reasonable aperture to get you better DOF even on tight head shots.

Here's one that was f/8 and processed without tinting. Does this work better?

gmonkeh · February 27, 2009

marikris wrote:

Here's one that was f/8 and processed without tinting. Does this work better?

You have an L lens and a pretty good body, so I'm thinking it's just the conversion. Is there any way you can upload the original somewhere? With your equipment you should be able to pull off some crisp/clean shots, which is a little lacking from the sample shots.

When you setup for your shoot try to shoot in shade and use reflectors to control the light. Just try to avoid direct sunlight to avoid headaches later on. Use spot metering mode and meter off the skin, keep the zone system in mind. Try to place "white" skin in zone 6.

+|--|--|--0--|--|--|-

^

Around there would suffice. And check your histograms.

Cloud cover is your friend too, it's God's softbox

marikris · February 27, 2009

gmonkeh wrote:

You have an L lens and a pretty good body, so I'm thinking it's just the conversion. Is there any way you can upload the original somewhere? With your equipment you should be able to pull off some crisp/clean shots, which is a little lacking from the sample shots.

I think my shot's iffy to begin with...focused on her left eye =/ Sadly, I'm also kind of new with manual so that is not helping lol. I want to be better at it for sure. (You can click on the pic to get to my smugmug image. I finally figured out how to do it lol).

gmonkeh wrote:

When you setup for your shoot try to shoot in shade and use reflectors to control the light. Just try to avoid direct sunlight to avoid headaches later on. Use spot metering mode and meter off the skin, keep the zone system in mind. Try to place "white" skin in zone 6.

+|--|--|--0--|--|--|-
^

Around there would suffice. And check your histograms.

Cloud cover is your friend too, it's God's softbox

Thank you for this!! As you can tell, I'm still at 2 (out of 10) on skill/knowledge level, so I am sponging everything up. I kept checking my histograms and I was definitely not getting more density on the left and right side than the middle on most of the pics. I am going to shoot tomorrow though so I can put what you wrote to practice, though the reflectors will have to wait till I get one from Amazon. I can say, though, there will be questions afterwards

gmonkeh · February 27, 2009

Hi again Marikris,

Hope you don't mind. Tried to give your shot a little more pop. Also enlarged the pupils a little bit and added some catchlights. Tweaked the bokeh a little bit too.

Art Scott · February 27, 2009

marikris wrote:

Also, I was shooting with 5dii and 24-70L.

For some reason, photoshop wouldn't save as jpg - I had to "save for web and devices" in order for it to not be tiff. I shoot raw, but Lightroom and photoshop CS3 won't open the cr2 files straight from my card, saying it's not a format it knows. So I open it with the software that came with the 5dii, then transfer to photoshop as a tiff. If there's an easier way, I'd love to know lol.

If PSCS3 nor LR2 will open your CR2 files then you need to update them........in LR2.....under "HELP"....run the check for updates......and should any pop up.....install them.........do the same for PSCS3....for PS you may have to goto downloads at adobe.com and see if the raw converter is availblefor PSCS3 or if it only works for PSCS4.....enven if it does you have lightroom and just need to have it up to date............

My LR2 is at V2.2 which I was just told is up to date and current........

marikris · February 27, 2009

gmonkeh wrote:

Hi again Marikris,

Hope you don't mind. Tried to give your shot a little more pop. Also enlarged the pupils a little bit and added some catchlights. Tweaked the bokeh a little bit too.

Oh, I don't mind at all! It's easier to see than to read, so I really appreciate that. That image is beautiful - It's never occurred to me to tweak the eyes in this way, and I really love the color. Did you add guassian blur to the bokeh? I had the hardest time on her skin color. Yours look very luminous.

gmonkeh · February 28, 2009

I actually did some minor dodging and burning on her face, to give it a little more depth. And for the bg I did do a little blur and adjusted opacity until it was more uniform.

For the colors here's what I did. First duplicate original.
STEP 1: Go to image > mode > LAB (don't do anything else go directly to step 2)
STEP 2: go to image > apply image
in the screen that pops up use these settings:
Layer: Merged
Channel: B
Blending: Soft Light
Opacity: 60%

Click ok.

Adjust contrast using a basic S Curve in the Lightness channel.

You're done.

I think what I found off before was her eyes. Studies have shown that people tend to favor portraits with larger pupils than the opposite. Don't know who would do a study on that but apparently somebody did. lol

Noticed as well you we're shooting at ISO400 outdoors at 3 in the pm, shouldn't be that much of a diff, but you should still have more than enough light to shoot at your lowest ISO setting. This will help to keep your images as clean as possible.

marikris · February 28, 2009

Art Scott wrote:

If PSCS3 nor LR2 will open your CR2 files then you need to update them........in LR2.....under "HELP"....run the check for updates......and should any pop up.....install them.........do the same for PSCS3....for PS you may have to goto downloads at adobe.com and see if the raw converter is availblefor PSCS3 or if it only works for PSCS4.....enven if it does you have lightroom and just need to have it up to date............

My LR2 is at V2.2 which I was just told is up to date and current........

Ah, I see. I am running Lightroom 1.x instead of the new Lightroom 2, and will only be able to upgrade for $99. According to their lightoom blog: "Photoshop CS3 works with the Camera Raw 4 plug-in. The 5D Mark II support is only available in the Camera Raw 5 plug-in which requires Photoshop CS4. You can also use the DNG Converter 5.2 application(freely available at www.adobe.com/dng) to convert the 5D Mark II files to DNG and open them in Camera Raw 4.6."

So it looks like I'm S.O.L. for now

Well, I'll just suck up the extra step I've been doing with the software that came with the camera for free lol.

gmonkeh · February 28, 2009

Im guessing you're a student at the college right? You can usually get good student pricing for Photoshop CS3. If you're serious about digital photography, you need to get photoshop.

It's really a double edged sword nowadays, you really have to be as good a photographer along with being a good photoshop user. My 2 cents at least.

marikris · February 28, 2009

gmonkeh wrote:

Im guessing you're a student at the college right? You can usually get good student pricing for Photoshop CS3. If you're serious about digital photography, you need to get photoshop.

It's really a double edged sword nowadays, you really have to be as good a photographer along with being a good photoshop user. My 2 cents at least.

Oh, yes, I have Photoshop CS3. Unfortunately, to open the cr2 files from the 5d ii, you need CS4. I'll hold out for the upgrade for a while though. I don't mind doing the extra conversion from the canon disc after finding out I had to upgrade to CS4 lol.

PS. I'm practicing your steps now. So far, it's not looking like yours, but I'll keep trying! I definitely see the benefits to working it in LAB mode this way - I mean, I can already see the change in the skin's luminance!

gmonkeh · February 28, 2009

You know to be completely honest, I don't shoot in RAW at all unless I'm faced with challenging lighting situations.

JPEG is completely acceptable. Others might disagree but I'm happy with it.

colourbox · February 28, 2009

marikris wrote:

You can also use the DNG Converter 5.2 application(freely available at www.adobe.com/dng) to convert the 5D Mark II files to DNG and open them in Camera Raw 4.6."
[/I]
So it looks like I'm S.O.L. for now Well, I'll just suck up the extra step I've been doing with the software that came with the camera for free lol.

No, you're not SOL if you use the free DNG converter to convert for Camera Raw 4.6 and maybe Lightroom 1.x, just as it says up there. DNG is more backwards compatible, which is why converting to DNG lets you use the raws with CS3, but few cameras save straight to DNG, therefore the free converter.

marikris · February 28, 2009

gmonkeh wrote:

This is how mine turned out: (I think I pushed the highlights too far; too much contrast; too saturated. I'll retry from scratch again tomorrow. Good practice though.) Oh, also, how did you widen the pupils and make the catch lights? I tried cloning and filling but those looked totally fake. Specially zooming in. If you don't mind, that is. You guys have helped me tremendously.

marikris · February 28, 2009

colourbox wrote:

No, you're not SOL if you use the free DNG converter to convert for Camera Raw 4.6 and maybe Lightroom 1.x, just as it says up there. DNG is more backwards compatible, which is why converting to DNG lets you use the raws with CS3, but few cameras save straight to DNG, therefore the free converter.

Thank you for explaining that! All is not lost after all

I'm downloading it now.

divamum · February 28, 2009

gmonkeh wrote:

You know to be completely honest, I don't shoot in RAW at all unless I'm faced with challenging lighting situations.

JPEG is completely acceptable. Others might disagree but I'm happy with it.

That's what I thought 5 months ago, too.

I now go back and look at my jpgs which have been adjusted as far as they can and nearly CRY that they're not raw files that I can actually correct now I know more about white balancing and processing in general! And yeah this is also what everybody said to me (I know, I know, Jeff and Scott and a few others are sitting there reading this and laughing their behinds off!!), and my response was exactly as yours, so I get your point of view but I also know that once I finally sucked it up and went raw.... BOY do I now appreciate it!!! Do it if you can. I now only shoot jpgs for things I KNOW are throwaways or if I actually start to run out of space on the card....

Re manual: I am still not 100% comfortable shooting 100% manual when there are other pressures and considerations as well - I understand the principles and theories, and I do shoot manual when I have time to stop and think slowly and very carefully (or when I have a specific effect/specific needs and KNOW exactly what to set to get them), but when I'm trying to move fast and keep things likely, ie like you are with a model, I usually shoot raw and aperture priority, meaning the main thing I have to adjust fast is my focus point. That means I get great control over depth of field (which is usually what I want in a portrait) but without having to stop and recalculate. If I need to move to manual to fix a specific issue, then I switch over with SPECIFIC settings in mind. (And now that I"m starting to work w/studio equipment, if I'm working with an incident light meter with a flash I'll use manual too, since the incident meter will override the camera's interpretation of the situation)

This may not work for everybody (and, of course, I may grow into a different approach in time) but at the moment it's working out ok for me. Manual for situations where I can take a little more time and really set what I need with forethought (and multiple histogram checks and/or on the basis of an incident meter), aperture priority for portraits or situations where dof is going to be the dominant requirement, and shutter priority when my subject is moving fast and/or if I'm using a long lens and want to guarantee no camera shake by ensuring a certain shutter speed. Like I say, ymmv, but it works for me at this "just coming out of n00b" stage.

Btw, I see nobody has mentioned Gimp as a possible editing solution for you. Will it support the new 5d raw files? (I don't know because I don't use it, but it can't hurt to check and see if it will plug the gap until you get your upgrades.....)

Need help on outside photo shoot ~

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