2nd shooter advice

Calm Light Photos · March 6, 2009

I know there's been a post or two on second shooters for weddings, but I can't seem to locate them - even through search.

What I want to know is this: I want to shoot weddings, but I've been reading loads of advice here on Dgrin about learning from the pros before going out on my own. I understand fully that wedding photography is much more than shooting images, and so I want to experience it first hand before I decide to go solo.

What are my rights as a second shooter? Does the primary photographer "get" my pictures or do I retain ownership? My objective as a second shooter would be to learn all I can and to build a portfolio of my own. Who knows, maybe I will want to stay as a second shooter. Only time and experience will tell.

I've only shot one wedding - last summer. It was a spur of the moment thing, I had no time to prepare, I didn't have the right gear, I tried to talk them out of hiring me, it didn't work, but in the end it turned out well. I now have a D90, an 85 1.8 and a 55-200 4.5, so I feel more confident. I'll rent a lens or two when hired, but for now this is what I have.

Any advice will be most appreciated!
Thank you,
Darlene

geospatial_junkie · March 6, 2009

Calm Light Photos wrote:

I know there's been a post or two on second shooters for weddings, but I can't seem to locate them - even through search.

What I want to know is this: I want to shoot weddings, but I've been reading loads of advice here on Dgrin about learning from the pros before going out on my own. I understand fully that wedding photography is much more than shooting images, and so I want to experience it first hand before I decide to go solo.

What are my rights as a second shooter? Does the primary photographer "get" my pictures or do I retain ownership? My objective as a second shooter would be to learn all I can and to build a portfolio of my own. Who knows, maybe I will want to stay as a second shooter. Only time and experience will tell.

I've only shot one wedding - last summer. It was a spur of the moment thing, I had no time to prepare, I didn't have the right gear, I tried to talk them out of hiring me, it didn't work, but in the end it turned out well. I now have a D90, an 85 1.8 and a 55-200 4.5, so I feel more confident. I'll rent a lens or two when hired, but for now this is what I have.

Any advice will be most appreciated!
Thank you,
Darlene

What are your rights?

That depends on what is agreed upon by the photographer. Never work with a pro that insists on taking your photos and making them theirs. Its misleading by the pro and you then need to question the photos on their website as being "theirs". How will you learn and build a portfolio without those images?

Also, don't work with a pro that doesn't let you post-process you raw images. Again, it makes no sense as they didn't take the shot and don't really know what you intended with it.

If you are a proactive second-shooter that doesn't take the same shot as the primary photographer then those images should definitely be yours to use in a portfolio (but not on the primary shooter's website as their own work). For example if you are taking shots at different angles or at different locations, then why should that photographer pass those images off as his/her own? Its unethical and you won't learn off someone like that.

Scott_Quier · March 6, 2009

Calm Light Photos wrote:

What are my rights as a second shooter? Does the primary photographer "get" my pictures or do I retain ownership? My objective as a second shooter would be to learn all I can and to build a portfolio of my own. Who knows, maybe I will want to stay as a second shooter. Only time and experience will tell.

I've only shot one wedding - last summer. It was a spur of the moment thing, I had no time to prepare, I didn't have the right gear, I tried to talk them out of hiring me, it didn't work, but in the end it turned out well. I now have a D90, an 85 1.8 and a 55-200 4.5, so I feel more confident. I'll rent a lens or two when hired, but for now this is what I have.

Any advice will be most appreciated!
Thank you,
Darlene

Sounds like you have the right attitude with regards to both getting the experience and about having the right equipment for the job!

As to your "rights" ... they are whatever you negotiate with the primary. If he/she negotiates you out of the copyright on your images - well, you have only yourself to blame. That having been said, this is how I handle this (as both the primary and the second):

The shooter owns the copyright on the photos. If, as the second, you pressed the shutter for that photo, you own the copyright on it - not the primary.
The primary gets a copy of all the photos shot by the second for whatever purposes the primary deems appropriate. What this means is when I second shoot, I provide the primary with a copy of my RAW files. They can modify, edit, sell, etc to their heart's content. I get to use these photos for my portfolio purposes. I do not use these images to poach on the primary's sales!

Bottom line .... Everything is negoiatable. Talk to your primary before the shooting starts - hopefully when the primary is first starting to build his team (two people can make a team

). Get it in writing. If you don't like the terms, thank him/her for the consideration and the time and walk away from it.

geospatial_junkie wrote:

If you are a proactive second-shooter that doesn't take the same shot as the primary photographer then those images should definitely be yours to use in a portfolio (but not on the primary shooter's website as their own work). For example if you are taking shots at different angles or at different locations, then why should that photographer pass those images off as his/her own? Its unethical and you won't learn off someone like that.

Keep in mind, there's a difference between the primary passing your photos off as his/hers and selling prints of your images to his clients (the B&G and guests). The primary should not be using your shots for advertising/portfolio purposes. The primary does have the right to sell prints of your images to the B&G (and their guests). This does not mean the primary has the right to sell your image.

From a purely pragmatic stand point, if the primary couldn't sell prints of your images, what would be the incentive for the primary to pay you to second shoot and/or teach you the trade?

bmoreshooter · March 6, 2009

While I agree with most of what GEO said it is unfortunately not that clear cut. The attitude that hireing a second shooter gives them the right to use photos from your wedding is a major reason that pros don't want to hire seconds. That does'nt mean that you can't make an agreement with the first shooter who owns the job. The key is communication. I beleive that the phrase 2nd shooter vs. assistant has blurred the lines a bit. You have to remember that your main reason for following a pro is to learn how to do the job. You should make up your portfolio from your own weddings. As far as them using your work as their own it technically is theirs because it was their job. If they specifically state that they took the photos then that's bad business and you probably should'nt have hooked up with them in the first place. But that will come back to bite them in the butt eventually. When I started out I worked for a studio. I agreed to learn from them for several montrhs and then agreed to shoot weddings for them for one year (with pay). Everthing I did was theirs. Of course that was before the internet. To sum up we all need to pay our dues, while it does'nt necessisarily feel good to have someone else profiting from our work it's, just needed if you want to break into the profession. Remember, that pro sees you as future competition.

Calm Light Photos · March 6, 2009

Thank you all for your wonderful insight and advice! Very much appreciated! This is all quite helpful.

Now, you guys are probably going to laugh but I have to say it anyway.....I've never shot RAW

The only thing I know about it is it takes up more room on the SD card and you have more control in PP. Bear in mind I don't know photoshop, I do very minimal PP in Picasa and occasionally Corel Paint Shot Pro. I do my best to get it right SOOC. I imagine if I shoot RAW I'll need to become proficient in PS?

Scott_Quier · March 6, 2009

Calm Light Photos wrote:

Thank you all for your wonderful insight and advice! Very much appreciated! This is all quite helpful.

Now, you guys are probably going to laugh but I have to say it anyway.....I've never shot RAW The only thing I know about it is it takes up more room on the SD card and you have more control in PP. Bear in mind I don't know photoshop, I do very minimal PP in Picasa and occasionally Corel Paint Shot Pro. I do my best to get it right SOOC. I imagine if I shoot RAW I'll need to become proficient in PS?

I can't suggest this strongly enough, Shoot weddings RAW! or RAW + JPG. Unless you KNOW you can get the exposure and WB spot-on each and every time, RAW can save you.

Shooting RAW does require you to convert. Your camera came with a RAW conversion program. You can use that to do the major/global changes (exposure, WB, etc) and export the result to the editor of your choice. You might want to investigate Light Room. It would seem to be perfectly suited to someone like you who strives to "get it right in the camera". Contrary to what you may read on the net, shooting RAW does not impose a significant impact on your workflow - the incremental time cost to process a RAW file over a JPG is miniscule ... trivial even - once you have a good workflow worked out.

As the second shooter, it doesn't matter if it takes you a day or a month to get the images processed. You don't have a client waiting for them. But, your primary will, unless he/she has specifically stated otherwise, will appreciate the RAW files. Oh, BTW, like you said, you will need more memory or the primary will have to supply you with adequate memory (that's a point of negotiation:D).

Blurmore · March 6, 2009

Rights wise...that really depends on the photographer you are working for. I have no formal agreement with any of the photographers I work for as a second. My contract with the large company I work for states that we share the copyright but I am not allowed to sell to the client. With one of the guys I work for I have had the opportunity to photograph an inaugural ball and after party, AND major media mogul's celebrity filled retirement party in Washington DC. As much as I'd love to have either of these jobs on my personal site if for nothing more than wow factor I have never displayed them and never will. I LIKE working these events, and while we have no formal agreement, I'm sure that if I plastered my shots all over the web, he would not only be angry, but would probably never have me work for him again. For weddings and Mitzvahs I shoot for other people, I will process my 2 or 3 bests shots and post them to my blog, they both know I do it and have no problem with it. If you are worried about it, at least get a verbal agreement before you start.

The most valuable thing you can learn from being a second shooter is how the main photographer interacts with the client, the "Blarney Stone" aspect of the job. Everything else is technical and can be picked up/practiced off the job. The primary photographer will be looking for you to do one of 2 things at different times of the day. The first used to be more common in the days of film, that was "backing up" the primary. Basically you are shooting almost the same thing to make sure the essence of the moment is captured. The second is to be shooting something DIFFERENT from what the primary is shooting, different angles, different details, different expression, using different light. My best advice is to follow direction, and if it is not given ask for it. Don't get your ire up if they tell you what to do, but don't let them belittle you either. A lot of wedding photographers are passive aggressive ego-maniacs, and treat their assistants/seconds like shit. Some are very cool to work for. I've worked with both, but more of the former than the latter.

Scott_Quier · March 6, 2009

bmoreshooter wrote:

I beleive that the phrase 2nd shooter vs. assistant has blurred the lines a bit.

- and I wonder .... I don't know so I'm asking ....

Is this blurring of the lines maybe, in part, due to the advent of the digital camera? In the days of film, wedding photogs had a set list of shots they got and the clients knew this. With the advent of digital, clients are expecting "boat-loads" of images taken from every possible angle. One person can't do it all - they can only be in one place at a time.

When I use the term "2nd shooter" that's what I mean. When I'm the second, I follow directions, help with setup, help with positioning of lights, whatever the primary wants - cause that's what I expect. I'm also there to shoot when the above duties allow me to do so - again, 'cause that's what I expect of my second. People who second for me (and for whom I second) are my "photograhic equals" and I pay for that expertise. If all I needed was a sherpa .... well, my overhead would be a bit less:D

And, like Blurmore says, when I second, I will take the top 2 or 3 and use them for portfolio purposes. The rest - who cares?

urbanaries · March 6, 2009

Scott_Quier wrote:

Keep in mind, there's a difference between the primary passing your photos off as his/hers and selling prints of your images to his clients (the B&G and guests). The primary should not be using your shots for advertising/portfolio purposes. The primary does have the right to sell prints of your images to the B&G (and their guests). This does not mean the primary has the right to sell your image.

Interesting....I've shot a few weddings where the (paid) second was places I couldn't be, or got angles I couldn't get. When I tell the "story" of the wedding, their shots complete the story. Maybe it's just one great shot I didn't get, maybe it's 30. If it's the primary's gig, the primary's culling, processing....is it really bad form to include those shots in a sample album, or in a gallery of that wedding on a website?

I think when folks are hiring a photographer they're not just hiring *A* person, they're hiring a vendor's end product, vision as a whole. Just like husband/wife teams, maybe they work under "her" name, but does the client really care who took which photos? They are hiring for all things related to the wedding end product, and sometimes that includes the work of folks employed as second shooters.

I find actually pointing out that shots in my sample albums were of a second shooter (see, I couldn't be here because I was getting THAT shot) proves the point that they are worth the expense, which results in more work for my second shooters

Just playin' devil's advocate...

geospatial_junkie · March 6, 2009

Bottom line is that if you own or share to copyright, you are legally entitled to do what you want with them, unless otherwise stated in the contract. What I would do is give someone a limited copyright for promotional purposes only (i.e. website, print, competitions, shows, etc...) and state that the limited copyright does not entitle the photographer to the selling of the photographs. Also, why would I want my photo as a shared copyright?? Its my photo. I chose the aperture, shutterspeed, focal length, ISO, etc... no one else. I would just allow the printing and selling rights to be transfered to the principle photographer.

Not using them on your website or in a portfolio makes the whole thing kind of useless doesn't it? I mean, yes you can garner a ton of experience (and quite frankly this can be very over-rated too as you need to develop your own style), but ultimately you need to show a product to get those jobs. Again, do NOT 2nd shoot for anyone that wants to use your photos as their own and will not allow you to display them on your website.

I had an interesting situation a while back as a 2nd shooter and created a clause in my contract the photographer signed. In it I stated that any shot that I took was mine to use as I saw fit promotionally (I couldn't sell them though). I went further to say that if she used more than 50% of my photos in the package to the bride and groom, then she would need to credit me in the wedding album and the bride and groom would need my permission to include those photos.

Why did I do this? Simple. I didn't trust her and I didn't want any possibility of her taking credit with the bride and groom if there were a ton of MY photos in HER package. Needless to say, I got a call from the bride and groom asking my permission which I gladly gave and I've gotten 3 referrals based on that. The photographer is ticked at me for it because I "stole work from her." I "stole" nothing as I never once solicited business at the wedding or reception. I explained to her if she had done a better job shooting the wedding, then maybe she would have gotten more business. Why should she be rewarded for someone else's work?

I agree that the lines between 2nd shooter and assistant are fuzzy. To me, an assistant has quite a bit of knowledge and would be getting some form of formal compensation for his/her work whereas a 2nd shooter would be more of a learning role.

Blurmore · March 6, 2009

urbanaries wrote:

Interesting....I've shot a few weddings where the second was places I couldn't be, or got angles I couldn't get. When I tell the "story" of the wedding, their shots complete the story. Maybe it's just one great shot I didn't get, maybe it's 30. If it's the primary's gig, the primary's culling, processing....is it really bad form to include those shots in a sample album, or in a gallery of that wedding on a website?

I think when folks are hiring a photographer they're not just hiring *A* person, they're hiring a vendor's end product, vision as a whole. Just like husband/wife teams, maybe they work under "her" name, but does the client really care who took which photos? They are hiring for all things related to the wedding end product, and sometimes that includes the work of folks employed as second shooters.

I find actually pointing out that shots in my sample albums were of a second shooter (see, I couldn't be here because I was getting THAT shot) proves the point that they are worth the expense, which results in more work for my second shooters

Just playin' devil's advocate...

I think we are talking about 2 different kinds of second shooters. Where I am NOW, I don't consider anyone I shoot for as a second as my photographic superior. Where I was 5 years ago??? Yes. I started as an "assistant" in the days of medium format cameras and studio lights. I set up lights, I ran extension cords, I metered lights, I helped pose, I loaded backs, I fixed cameras. During the ceremony and reception if I was LUCKY I got to shoot some with a 35mm camera, and occasionally with the medium format camera. I was an ASSISTANT. With the advent of digital, working for the SAME person, I still did all the stuff with the lights, and the posing, but I got to shoot a lot more, because I wasn't costing the primary film. Now when I shoot with that SAME person, I still set up lights (though there are less of them) but I am expected to get shots that contribute to the story intricately. With the other photographers, they don't use off camera lights, so I'm expected to shoot what they aren't shooting, and sometimes back them up, and the final mix down is usually 60/40 theirs to mine. I think Calm Light is at the bottom of this learning curve called wedding photography, and will be being hired as more of an assistant than an equal "second shooter".

urbanaries · March 6, 2009

geospatial_junkie wrote:

... I didn't want any possibility of her taking credit with the bride and groom if there were a ton of MY photos in HER package. Needless to say, I got a call from the bride and groom asking my permission which I gladly gave and I've gotten 3 referrals based on that. The photographer is ticked at me for it because I "stole work from her." I "stole" nothing as I never once solicited business at the wedding or reception. I explained to her if she had done a better job shooting the wedding, then maybe she would have gotten more business. Why should she be rewarded for someone else's work?

I can tell this is going to be an interesting thread...

Why are you approaching an employment situation (either you're trading your time for knowledge, or money, or both) like a competition?

If you work for an ad agency or other creative firm, do you expect them to put YOUR name on the website if they're using your work to generate more business?

A team attitude will get you a lot farther than a "me first" one....just sayin'. Not to say you should let yourself get walked on, but there must have been SOME motivation on your part...you got something out of it or you wouldn't have done it. Right?

For the record, I pay second shooters that I initiate hiring. If my client is paying for a second shooter, they have to be reliable enough technically and creatively to "get the shot" if I assign something to them during the day. I reserve the right to process and sell their images to my clients, and allow them to use their shots in their portfolio (which is considered generous in the marketplace) as well as pay them. I haven't put any of their images on my site but certainly in sample albums/slideshows at client sales meetings. I have two second shooters here on dgrin, it would be awesome for them to weigh in...

Blurmore · March 6, 2009

geospatial_junkie wrote:

Again, do NOT 2nd shoot for anyone that wants to use your photos as their own and will not allow you to display them on your website.

I do it for the money, the guy I shoot high profile events for pays me very well. Besides, I'm not going to use the photos I take at his events to try to market to his clientele. I have neither the desire nor the chops (business wise) to run with that set. Sure I show my friends the shots when they come over to my house and they are all impressed, but really that is all I'd be doing with them if I put them on my website. No bride is going to see shots I took of a celebrity at a private event and want to hire me on that basis, and if there were such a bride I doubt I'd want to shoot her wedding. Using your images, and having complete control over your work isn't everything, getting paid, and paid well counts for a lot.

geospatial_junkie · March 6, 2009

bmoreshooter wrote:

You should make up your portfolio from your own weddings. As far as them using your work as their own it technically is theirs because it was their job.

You can't get weddings without a wedding portfolio. A wedding portfolio is created from wedding images...

No wedding images = no wedding work.

When an author writes a book, he/she credits whomever helped them in the book. By your definition... there would be no credits. Portfolio work is a way of giving that credit...

geospatial_junkie · March 6, 2009

Blurmore wrote:

I do it for the money, the guy I shoot high profile events for pays me very well.

This is a unique circumstance and I totally agree with your discretion here.

geospatial_junkie · March 6, 2009

urbanaries wrote:

I can tell this is going to be an interesting thread...

If you work for an ad agency or other creative firm, do you expect them to put YOUR name on the website if they're using your work to generate more business? .

I don't work for either. If I wanted this type of approach, I would try and get hired by a studio. Remember, I'm not complaining. I won't sign a 2nd shooter contract for any photographer if its not to my liking and I'm sure its vice versa.

As for treating it as a competition. I'm not. I'm treating it as a business. Its a competitive marketplace for wedding photography. I don't mind giving up my selling rights... but not my copyright. One is only money...

I agree that this is going to be an interesting thread.

geospatial_junkie · March 6, 2009

Somebody has to pile on.... C'mon... anyone?! :beatwax

I've always wanted to use that symbol!

geospatial_junkie · March 6, 2009

urbanaries wrote:

A team attitude will get you a lot farther than a "me first" one....just sayin'. Not to say you should let yourself get walked on, but there must have been SOME motivation on your part...you got something out of it or you wouldn't have done it. Right?

I did get something out of it, but I wouldn't have unless I covered my own butt (3 referrals).

I think the attitude you take is terrific and refreshing Urbanaries, however, most of the time, the pros I've 2nd shot for were very strict, egotistical (sometimes warranted, others not so much), and pompous. You sound like a reasonable person to work for and maybe we just don't have much of them around in my neck of the woods.

As for post-processing? How do you bridge that disconnect between your 2nd shooters intention with the shot and your post-processing?

Swartzy · March 6, 2009

Not using them on your website or in a portfolio makes the whole thing kind of useless doesn't it? I mean, yes you can garner a ton of experience (and quite frankly this can be very over-rated too as you need to develop your own style), but ultimately you need to show a product to get those jobs. Again, do NOT 2nd shoot for anyone that wants to use your photos as their own and will not allow you to display them on your website.

I completely agree with this....yes, why would you (in most cases...Jason's examples excluded or those with specific ramifications).

I agree that the lines between 2nd shooter and assistant are fuzzy. To me, an assistant has quite a bit of knowledge and would be getting some form of formal compensation for his/her work whereas a 2nd shooter would be more of a learning role.

I would consider it complete opposite. The 2nd shooter is/can be/should be as vital as the primary when it comes to image taking. This whole concept of having a 2nd for learning purposes may be the norm in today's marketplace but honestly, a 2nd is an invaluable aid in the final outcome.....it's all about the end product for the CLIENT..period...it's not about who shoots what (even though we are conditioned to think that way). There are many who use the same assistant for years..and the assistant never picks up a camera...they load the film, work w/lighting (see above in Blurmore's post). A second shooter does assist and should know that part of their presence will warrent those tasks but they also should be skilled in image capture. This whole idea of "hey, let me shoot with you so I can learn how to shoot" concept is a bit backwards.

Often, we get into discussions (choose your poison) and make it personal..like, "Well, I do thus and such". In reality, as a primary it is our job and responsibility to our client to use the best tools for the best outcome available to us (or what we have to work with at the time)....hence, taking on a 2nd, it would stand to reason that we would want someone with camera skills, a good photographic eye, a great people personality, non-confrontal, and a team player...all inclusive of holding a strobe, fixing a vail, straightening a gown, running to the car for a piece of equiment. I'm a firm believer a good 2nd plays a vital role........not substandard.

bmoreshooter · March 6, 2009

I still think we have not cleared up that "blurred" line. When we discuss a second shooter and refer to someone on the level of Blurmore we are talking about a different scenario than someone with no experience and a minimum of photo knowledge. If you hire someone to "second" that does'nt know what they are doing you're not going to get much for your money. No disrespct meant to anyone but hireing someone that is a total neophyte is hireing an "assistant". The fact that we allow them to take a few shots does'nt make them a second photographer. When I book a wedding or shoot for someone else and sell the job with 2 shooters I charge accordingly. If I take an assistant I don't charge extra. Their stipend comes out of my profit. A photographer that takes on an assistant with the intentions of teaching that person their trade does'nt really owe them anything. In fact it's the other way around. It can often be an unnecessary nuisance. As to building your portfolio that comes later. Learn first sell later. As we have seen on this site there are a lot of people out there looking for someone to shoot their wedding for free.

geospatial_junkie · March 6, 2009

Interesting. In other words experience=good. This is a pretty standard fallacy. Again, I could find lots examples to refute that. The ulimate litmus test is talent... it will always shine through. Boy are there a lot of experienced photographers that dont have "it". I've seen lots of primary photographers in which the bride and groom didn't get "much for their money".

Weddings are tough to get into nowadays. Sorry, I just don't understand how you can assume someone will shoot for a year for free and not get ANY images to use as a portfolio. In my mind, its a little unethical.

We'll agree to disagree.

bmoreshooter · March 6, 2009

geospatial_junkie wrote:

Interesting. In other words experience=good. This is a pretty standard fallacy. Again, I could find lots examples to refute that. The ulimate litmus test is talent... it will always shine through. Boy are there a lot of experienced photographers that dont have "it". I've seen lots of primary photographers in which the bride and groom didn't get "much for their money".

Weddings are tough to get into nowadays. Sorry, I just don't understand how you can assume someone will shoot for a year for free and not get ANY images to use as a portfolio. In my mind, its a little unethical.

We'll agree to disagree.

I did not say that anyone should shoot for a year without pay. If you re-read my post you will see that I specified (with pay). Disagreement is what makes these post work, otherwise we would all just sit around here and pat each other on the back for a job well done. The origanal post ask for advice on the subject and we are all going to have our own point of view. It is up to her to decide which path to follow. As to experience=good if the person isn't getting any better, how long are we going to keep them hanging on. Yes, there are a lot of so-so photographers out there with a lot of experience but that's not what this post is about. It's about getting started in the wedding business with the help of others and what should be expected. There is nothing unethical about hireing someone to do a specific job with specific requirements. We all have the right to turn down the job and find someone who will let us do it our way.

jhelms · March 6, 2009

I've volunteered around here a few times to be a 2nd shooter but haven't had anyone take me up on it yet.

In the meantime, I've heard that people are very careful about taking on 2nd shooters because of the tons of obvious potential issues that could come up with just dealing with a 2nd 'unknown' photographer (attitude, etc.)

But I've also heard that people don't necessarily (sp?) want to 'reveal' their methods and tricks to a 2nd shooter that might one day be their direct competition.

Would it be a good idea to offer to sign a short term non-compete clause to make potential mentors feel more relaxed about this?

Calm Light Photos · March 7, 2009

Blurmore wrote:

I think we are talking about 2 different kinds of second shooters. Where I am NOW, I don't consider anyone I shoot for as a second as my photographic superior. Where I was 5 years ago??? Yes. I started as an "assistant" in the days of medium format cameras and studio lights. I set up lights, I ran extension cords, I metered lights, I helped pose, I loaded backs, I fixed cameras. During the ceremony and reception if I was LUCKY I got to shoot some with a 35mm camera, and occasionally with the medium format camera. I was an ASSISTANT. With the advent of digital, working for the SAME person, I still did all the stuff with the lights, and the posing, but I got to shoot a lot more, because I wasn't costing the primary film. Now when I shoot with that SAME person, I still set up lights (though there are less of them) but I am expected to get shots that contribute to the story intricately. With the other photographers, they don't use off camera lights, so I'm expected to shoot what they aren't shooting, and sometimes back them up, and the final mix down is usually 60/40 theirs to mine. I think Calm Light is at the bottom of this learning curve called wedding photography, and will be being hired as more of an assistant than an equal "second shooter".

My goodness, what a conversation we have going here!! Thank you all for your insight, experiences, advice, etc!!

I totally agree with the last sentence Blurmore said - "Calm Light is at the bottom of this learning curve called wedding photography, and will be hired as more of an assistant than an equal "second shooter."

There's too much to re-cap here so I'll try to remember what stood out for me as it relates to my current situation. First of all, I do have an eye so I certainly wouldn't need anyone showing me "how" to take pictures. From what I've read here and other forums, there are certain shots that are important and then there are some that are "MUST HAVE!" There are many creative methods in which to capture those moments, too, some of which will depend entirely on the couple being married.

What I want to learn is how the primary works with their clients. I'm already a people person and I'm teachable. My ego is very quiet and I can easily be a fly on the wall, giving me the ability to capture great candid moments.

Yes, I'm still learning lots of technicalities with my camera and I know nothing about the use of off camera flashes & strobes, etc.
I understand that a professional wedding photographer may not want to show me the ropes, because, after all, I could become better than them

So, maybe my question should really be this:
Where did you all start? Did you just jump into the fire and hope for the best, or were you an assistant first, then a second shooter, then a primary? Did you go to photography school? Take wedding photography courses?

Thank you!!

Matthew Saville · March 7, 2009

There definitely needs to be an understanding between any two photographers before they go into a situation like this.

And a BIG part of what I see in the business to day is, well, almost zero preparation in this respect. Either the 2nd shooter has never done it before and hasn't been properly clued in to what his "job" is and what his rights are, or worse, the primary photographer hardly has any experience either and they find themselves learning everything in hindsight. Which is a great way to make offenses, break potential friendships... It's just bad business.

So like I said what is most necessary is preparation. Have "the talk" about image rights, referral bookings, etc. BEFORE you go into your jobs. If you're the 2nd shooter, don't just assume that the primary will clue you in to everything. Take the initiative, and let them know exactly what you'd like to do with the images after you take them. Also ask about what to do if people try and go "behind their back" and book the 2nd photographer.

If I were a 2nd shooter, I'd respect ANYTHING the primary shooter asked. If they wanted me to shoot on their memory cards and never even see my images again, I'd be fine with that if they were paying well enough. Or, in certain situations I might decide that I simply don't want to be bound by certain rules, and I'd respectfully decline the job.

If I'm the primary photographer, I'm going to look for 2nd shooters who don't just take nice photos, but who are interested in making US look like an awesome team. I usually am so in sync with other shooters that when people talk about referrals it's always along the lines of "gosh, we gotta get you two to shoot OUR wedding, too!" ...It doesn't even cross their minds that we can be booked individually!

But I digress... I would allow any 2nd shooters to use images they take, in their web portfolio or on their blog, but I would expect them to not go handing out their own business cards at my event, or even giving out their email / number or taking down other people's... If a potential client approaches my 2nd shooter *on* the wedding day, I'd expect them to insist that people contact ME.

Or at least, I'd want to have 2nd shooters who would simply *want* to respect me that way. Cause I'm really a nice guy in person, and chances are if for example I overheard a bridesmaid trying to get my assistant's business card and the assistant was refusing, trying to refer them back to me, I'd go let them both know that it's cool, she's more than welcome to contact him. I mean honestly- if she doesn't like MY style, or cant' afford my prices, then why on earth would I wanna TRY to make it work? Sure, I'd like her to at least consider me; maybe wait until after the wedding and see if she can even tell who took which shots, but if she's trying to book my 2nd shooter and NOT me, then chances are I've got MUCH bigger problems with respect to my own personality and attitude, know what I mean?

My point being- It's the mentality, it's being on the same page, that counts. Not the exact legalities / procedures in each and every situation. And a little preparation can go a LONG way towards team-building!

=Matt=

jeffreaux2 · March 8, 2009

Calm Light Photos wrote:

So, maybe my question should really be this:
Where did you all start? Did you just jump into the fire and hope for the best, or were you an assistant first, then a second shooter, then a primary? Did you go to photography school? Take wedding photography courses?

Thank you!!

-I borrowed a long lense from a gal photographer friend to take into the swamp for shots of bald eagles. The "strings attatched" was to help her shoot a friend's wedding that she had been roped into..for free. She is a very good wildlife photographer, but has less confidence with people. I was already hiring out for portrait work....but have less confidence with wildlife.

-We wound up shooting two more small weddings together for friends....for free. Later that year I charged for my first wedding....and so it goes. Keep in mind that I only do this part time. I have turned down several weddings in the last year because of conflicting dates with my regular work schedule. Still though....I try to do several per year.

Photography has been a hobby since the mid-80's for me, so the fundamentals are second nature. Digital photography, though, is still a technology that is ever changing. I make it a point to "keep up"!

-BTW....the "bald eagle" nest that my "guide" brought me to photograph turned out to be a nest full of osprey.

divamum · March 8, 2009

Ok, looking at this from the "outside", but as somebody who freelances in a different artistic field...

1. Contracts, contracts, contracts. I can't imagine any reputable shooter (primary or 2nd) would want to leave it to a verbal. Spelling it out protects EVERYBODY. A lot of people seem to think that an explicit contract is somehow insulting or embarassing but from 20 years experience in the music biz I can tell you: it's a LIFELINE. The more clearly it's spelled out, the fewer problems there are likely to be. Even a "casual" arrangement between friends can benefit from WRITTEN agreements of some kind (emails are legally binding for contracts, btw, so even an email exchange about who does what can be valuable)

2. Seems to me there are three categories of team-shooting emerging here, but they're not (yet) universally defined? What I see - as an outsider - is these distinctions:

Assistant. Paid (perhaps nominally), expected to do the assisting (ie a lot of the dogsbody legwork, holding stands and flashes, set up, running around etc etc). May or may not be allowed/encouraged to shoot, but those images likely to be turned over to the primary, with rights resting with the primary. Likely to be a "training gig" more than anything else, with the Assistant taking the opportunity to learn the ropes and procedures as much as anything else.
Second shooter. Paid, probably somewhat more than an assistant. Primary takes the booking and the gig is performed under their business terms/licence/protocols. While the 2nd may be asked to perform some of the duties of an assistant, it is also assumed that they will shoot, may be assigned specific moments/areas to shoot, and is not restricted from shooting (unless specific restrictions are detailed beforhand). Rights to the images retained by BOTH parties, with details ideally spelled out so that there is no confusion (does the 2nd need to acknowledge the primary in crediting? Who does the post-processing? Online rights only, or prints for personal/promotional use? etc etc). Sales of the images, however, will rest with the primary.
Associate shooter. Two photographers with an established business relationship booked as a team, either under a business banner (ie they work together all the time) or because the primary knows the event will require more than one equally experienced/talented/same-page shooter to cover it adequately. One would assume that the income and rights would be split equally OR that a substantial fee would be paid to the associate (pre-arranged, spelled out, and with rights information clearly defined).

3. If you accept a gig as a second, whether as a learning experience or as a backup photographer to cover a larger gig, I would have that you have to accept that you are not in charge and that your job is to SUPPORT the primary - however that has been determined in the contract. That could be anything from holding the flash, to being in charge of specific shots/people/areas.

Maybe I'm way off base here, but I know that in my musical world, the terms of the contract and expectations therein are always MUCH MUCH MUCH happier when everything is clearly understood.

Just my wedding-forum-lurking 2c....

Scott_Quier · March 8, 2009

Calm Light Photos wrote:

So, maybe my question should really be this:
Where did you all start? Did you just jump into the fire and hope for the best, or were you an assistant first, then a second shooter, then a primary? Did you go to photography school? Take wedding photography courses?

Thank you!!

I have to admit I was very stupid ....

I was a guest at my first wedding. I went stag and brought along my 20D and Tammy 28-75. I shot a view from the pew during the wedding and a lot during the reception. I processed them and offered them to the B&G as a wedding gift.
Second one - I volunteered to shoot it for the cost of a flash bracket ($200). Very stupid idea, but they weren't going to have any photos at all - so it all worked out.
The third one I did for a decent fee, something like $500. Based on my lack of experience, I should not have charged anything. It all worked out.

Each successive wedding, I learned more about what I was supposed to be doing.

In hind-sight, I've been very lucky. I didn't screw up any gig. All the clients were quite happy.

Had I to do it all over again, I think a better course would be to find someone that would show me the ropes at least once or twice before I jumped into it on my own.

sweet caroline · March 8, 2009

Matt made some great points about coming across as a TEAM. My primary career is as a preschool teacher. I have an assistant, but I'd never think to treat her as inferior even though her role is to support me in the way I run my class. The parents need to feel confident in both our abilities. By the same token, if I start doing weddings seriously (I've done a handful for friends, not that I didn't take them seriously), I'd want a working relationship with another photographer that has the team mentality. It's better for business, and better for quality of life:)

Caroline

Matthew Saville · March 9, 2009

sweet caroline wrote:

Matt made some great points about coming across as a TEAM. My primary career is as a preschool teacher. I have an assistant, but I'd never think to treat her as inferior even though her role is to support me in the way I run my class. The parents need to feel confident in both our abilities. By the same token, if I start doing weddings seriously (I've done a handful for friends, not that I didn't take them seriously), I'd want a working relationship with another photographer that has the team mentality. It's better for business, and better for quality of life:)

Caroline

Thanks Caroline!

Divamum (?) made some AWESOME comments too-

1.) CONTRACTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!11

2.) If you're getting paid, be prepared to do things you don't find that exciting, like fetching a tripod, holding a flash, organizing a boring formal shot, etc. etc. There's REASON I'm paying "you" to help me! I need HELP! In all honesty, if all I need is more pictures of the wedding, I know a huge group of amateur and beginning professionals who would love to shoot with me for free. Most all of them take fantastic photos, too!

(That doesn't mean I don't pay for my 2nd shooters most of the time. I am always up front with brides and grooms; I tell them that it's THEIR choice as to what quality of 2nd shooter they want. I can either bring a friend for free, or they can officially *contract* a 2nd shooter for $300 or $600 depending on how good the 2nd shooter is.)

=Matt=

Calm Light Photos · March 11, 2009

I just wanted to say thank you to everyone who took the time to spell out the important stuff of wedding photography. I fully understand that photographing a wedding goes much deeper than depressing the shutter button. It's harnessing each important moment in such a way that will allow those who view them to actually recreate the emotions of the day. This takes an eye, this takes intuition, this takes knowledge and preparation, and of course, practice.

You have given me much food for thought and I really appreciate it! I believe my next step is to continue to educate myself, keep shooting and perfecting my skill, and seek out a professional who would be willing to mentor me in whatever big or small way they can. Sounds like assistant is my goal for now; second shooter and beyond is the bigger picture!

2nd shooter advice

Comments