If someone is really serious about getting high quality filters for the Cokin X-Pro or similar high-end holder, Singh Ray will make custom sizes for the ND Grads, Reverse Grads and others. Quoting their website, "Full customization of size, density, calibration and other properties is just a phone call away"
The blog section of their website contains some great tips and tricks from pros. Scroll down to the FIND BY LABEL section on the right hand side, click the type of filter you are interested in, and it will collect all the articles that include a discussion on that particular filter and how they use it in the field, with sample imagery. For example, there are 30 articles on hand-holding filters.
On a personal note: I just ordered 3 GND filters (in standard 4"x6" sizes): 2-stop hard-step GND, 2-stop soft-step GND, and 3-stop Reverse Grad for controlling sunlight close to the horizon. I plan on hand-holding them for now to see how it goes. My cokin holder is the regular P series, so I can't effectively use it with my 10-22. I'm heading to the Canadian Rockies next month, so I hope to get some use out of one or two of those filters (not too many flat horizons I suspect!)
If someone is really serious about getting high quality filters for the Cokin X-Pro or similar high-end holder, Singh Ray will make custom sizes for the ND Grads, Reverse Grads and others. Quoting their website, "Full customization of size, density, calibration and other properties is just a phone call away"
The blog section of their website contains some great tips and tricks from pros. Scroll down to the FIND BY LABEL section on the right hand side, click the type of filter you are interested in, and it will collect all the articles that include a discussion on that particular filter and how they use it in the field, with sample imagery. For example, there are 30 articles on hand-holding filters.
On a personal note: I just ordered 3 GND filters (in standard 4"x6" sizes): 2-stop hard-step GND, 2-stop soft-step GND, and 3-stop Reverse Grad for controlling sunlight close to the horizon. I plan on hand-holding them for now to see how it goes. My cokin holder is the regular P series, so I can't effectively use it with my 10-22. I'm heading to the Canadian Rockies next month, so I hope to get some use out of one or two of those filters (not too many flat horizons I suspect!)
Cool, I didn't know this about Singh Ray, but with the price of their filters to begin with, I can imagine how much they charge for custom work. I understand if someone wants it bad enough, they will pay for it, but for most, this maybe to much to spend on a setup. I tend to think you will use the soft edges in the rockies more than the hard edges, unless you can find a nice line to hide them with in your compositions.
I think what he is saying is he get white teflon plumbers tape and does a wrap around the threads of the screw in filters, and then you can screw filters together, without the metal of the threads binding on each others. You could also probably put a thin coating of white lithium grease, (i mean real thin, and don't get any on the glass) or you'll be cleaning them for a while. Silicone grease would work also.
-Andy
Great thread chaps! Many thanks for all the information!
I use a soft graphite pencil run around the threads of screw-in filters to help stop them binding…
NeilL, I dont recommend the dry teflon powder anymore, to big of a hassle, I read somewhere to just use some nose oil... in otherwords rub the threads on your nose and then thread it onto the lens... seems to help, I dont have lock up anymore...
but the bad news is I dropped my 77mm 3.0 B+W in the river the other day (never to be seen again) which leads to the good news...
x-pro system will be in my bag of stuff soon!
Andy, how big are the filters for the x-pro system anyway? B&H site didnt have any specs...
NeilL, I dont recommend the dry teflon powder anymore, to big of a hassle, I read somewhere to just use some nose oil... in otherwords rub the threads on your nose and then thread it onto the lens... seems to help, I dont have lock up anymore...
but the bad news is I dropped my 77mm 3.0 B+W in the river the other day (never to be seen again) which leads to the good news...
x-pro system will be in my bag of stuff soon!
Andy, how big are the filters for the x-pro system anyway? B&H site didnt have any specs...
Nose oil!! I like that!:D:D:D - nose oil is plentiful (at least in this 40+degC where I am), and in my case much more plentiful than elbow grease, and cheap (there is another oil here which is still plentiful and cheap at 25c/gallon), though I wonder if overuse could lead to RSI??rofl
Glad to hear you are 'progressing' in the filters area!
Hola Andy,
Thanks so much for all that information on filters. I had kind of been thread hopping and googling to get info, but here it is right in front of my nose--I obviously don't spend enough time on the Accessories forum.
I'm printing it as we speak as I will need to read it a few times.
Thanks again, I know that had to take up lots of your time.
still havent read everything yet, but did you cover stacking or using stepper rings and how to avoid them getting stuck together while out in the elements? (i coat the threads with some dry teflon type stuff)
iF i REMEBER CORRECTLY.......alum housed filters will stick together even when just lightly screwed together.....you want the more expensive brass housed filters as they do not stick without over tightening..........
I ave cracked several screw ins trying to get them out of the lens and then apart..........I no longer do screw in filters.................
Aaron, the Cokin Z Pro series holds 4x6 in rectangular filters. The only kind of GND to have. I used them in Toroweap.
Nose grease to lubricate filter threads is very old school - written about in the 1960s and i am certain goes back to the 19th century.
Brass threaded filters are much better, and much less likely to gall, than aluminum threaded filters. AL threads are just bad! The manufacturers know this, and that is why the brass ones do cost more, unfortunately. B&Ws are all brass I think, but not certain.
Anyone know of other brands with brass threads - Hoya perhaps?
Hi Andy-
Great post! Thanks for taking the time to put it together. A couple of quick questions. I'm thinking of picking up the Cokin Z-pro series as I will be using this mostly on my Canon 10-22 and 17-55 (both are 77mm filter size). So the questions:
Is it practical/reasonable to only get the one adapter ring?
Have you noticed any problems where the white print on the adapter ring gets reflected back onto the filter (and ends up in the final image)? Saw this as a complaint on Amazon.
Have you had any issues with the protruding pins impeding the position of the filter? Read about that complaint in this blog (link)
Finally, any thoughts on buying the Cokin Z-pro GND kit (link)
Thanks again,
E
Hola Andy,
Thanks so much for all that information on filters. I had kind of been thread hopping and googling to get info, but here it is right in front of my nose--I obviously don't spend enough time on the Accessories forum.
I'm printing it as we speak as I will need to read it a few times.
Thanks again, I know that had to take up lots of your time.
Hi Andy-
Great post! Thanks for taking the time to put it together. A couple of quick questions. I'm thinking of picking up the Cokin Z-pro series as I will be using this mostly on my Canon 10-22 and 17-55 (both are 77mm filter size). So the questions:
Is it practical/reasonable to only get the one adapter ring?
Have you noticed any problems where the white print on the adapter ring gets reflected back onto the filter (and ends up in the final image)? Saw this as a complaint on Amazon.
Have you had any issues with the protruding pins impeding the position of the filter? Read about that complaint in this blog (link)
Finally, any thoughts on buying the Cokin Z-pro GND kit (link)
Thanks again,
E
Yes it is practical, as long as you have step-up/down rings for your different size stuff. I would buy the biggest size ring, and step it down if you need it for a bunch of different lenses. I only shoot with one lens for landscapes, so I only have a 77. Also, here is what I did for the white paint on the ring. I sharpied it. Worked okay, but some flat black model paint might work better. And with a ten stop filter, I see reflection no matter what. It has to do with light getting into the space left between the filter and the lens/holder when using really dark ND's (IE a ten stop) There is more light emited through that space between the filter and holder in 1 second that there is directly through the filter itself. If you hold a 10 stop up you can barely see light through them. Basically the light goes through the space, and reflects off the filter ring, onto the filter, and then you get the reflection of the filter ring and holder into the filter, and then reflected onto the lens (and into you picture.) So you have to find a way to block that light coming in. Either a black card, or a black glove, or something. I almost recommend a Hoya screw in 10 stop, and then use a cokin setup in front of it for any grads you want to use with it. Then the light can't get in. I should have done this originally, and now will probably go back to a screw in for my 10 stop.
As far as the pins, they are plastic pins that are there to keep the square filters from falling out onto the ground. If the pins get in the way I just bend the filter (rectangle grad ND's) a bit, and slide it over them and position it. There is enough tension from the pins and the holder to keep it in there. The people on Amazon need to learn how to adapt. They don't think outside of the box.
My thoughts on the kit are this. Buy Hi-Tech Z-Pro size filters (100mm), and then get Cokin Z-Pro Holder. It holds Hi Techs just fine, and costs less than the Hi-Tech Holder. Check out 2filter.com for Hi-Tech stuff. Hi-Techs are better optical quality. (Less color casts)
I need to find a 10 stop ND & 3 stop ND for this 4x6 rectangular filter kit !!!
also,
what else do I need? How the heck does this attach to the lens?
Go to Formatt.co.uk. Check out the Hi-Tech line of filters. You can get a 10 stop rectangluar filter from them, but you have to order it directly. I do recommend that you just buy a 10 stop Hoya screw in though, due to reflections caused by light coming in through the space in the top between the filter and the holder. You will see the reflection in the picture unless you block all other light coming into the filter.
See my posts just above here for a description of the problem
Almost ready to order a grad ND setup. Pretty much sold on the Z-pro holder. Jim says he uses 4x6's in his, but I thought the tabs wouldn't allow the longer 4x5" and 4x6" filters to adjust downward. And it would seem only to affect the closest filter to the lens. Please correct me in this assumption if wrong (which I probably am).
So assuming I go with the Z-Pro holder and don't want 4x4" filters, is Hi-Tech 4x5" the way to go? Do I give up something with that size over 4x6"?
Lee seems really hard to get. B&H is always out.
My Smugmug
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take" - Wayne Gretzky
Go to Formatt.co.uk. Check out the Hi-Tech line of filters. You can get a 10 stop rectangluar filter from them, but you have to order it directly. I do recommend that you just buy a 10 stop Hoya screw in though, due to reflections caused by light coming in through the space in the top between the filter and the holder. You will see the reflection in the picture unless you block all other light coming into the filter.
See my posts just above here for a description of the problem
-Andy
thanks Andy, light leakage, that was my next question! thanks for pointing that out!
I think I will take Jims advice and go with the pro-z and I will re-purchase a B+W 3.0 ND screw in...(man I still cant believe I dropped that filter in the river!)
I'm new at this filter thing but I love my B+W 10 stop! I mainly use it on my Sigma 18mm-70mm but also attach it to my Tokina 11mm-16mm occasionally. I too went with the 77mm and step-down rings. The rings also work for my 77mm CP so it's a multi-tasker!
I also have the Cokin Z-Pro ND Grad system and like it for the grad aspects. However I am finding that I prefer literally holding the grads as opposed to using the attachment.
A Nikon D90 plus some Nikon, Sigma & Tokina lenses.
Almost ready to order a grad ND setup. Pretty much sold on the Z-pro holder. Jim says he uses 4x6's in his, but I thought the tabs wouldn't allow the longer 4x5" and 4x6" filters to adjust downward. And it would seem only to affect the closest filter to the lens. Please correct me in this assumption if wrong (which I probably am).
So assuming I go with the Z-Pro holder and don't want 4x4" filters, is Hi-Tech 4x5" the way to go? Do I give up something with that size over 4x6"?
Lee seems really hard to get. B&H is always out.
Your assumption of it only affecting the closest to the lens filter is right, but I just slide the filter over the tabs anyway. The tabs won't scratch the filter, and you can bend it enough to slide it over the tabs when it is in the holder. So if you need to have a grad on the closest slot, you can do it, just beaware it could fall out easier this way, but the tabs tend to put a bit of tension on the filter so it stays in place. You can move the tabs in and out also.
Almost ready to order a grad ND setup. Pretty much sold on the Z-pro holder. Jim says he uses 4x6's in his, but I thought the tabs wouldn't allow the longer 4x5" and 4x6" filters to adjust downward. And it would seem only to affect the closest filter to the lens. Please correct me in this assumption if wrong (which I probably am).
So assuming I go with the Z-Pro holder and don't want 4x4" filters, is Hi-Tech 4x5" the way to go? Do I give up something with that size over 4x6"?
Lee seems really hard to get. B&H is always out.
Also, if you want Lee, buy from 2filter.com. THey have stuff in stock, and are quick and do great work to get your stuff to you.
Hey Andy,
I just found a DIY variable ND solution in researching filters and thought I would share it here. The basic idea is to use a circular polarizer and then stack a linear polarizer on top to creat a variable ND filter!
Link: http://digital-photography-school.com/create-your-own-variable-neutral-density-filter
I'm curious to hear what you think.
E
Hey Andy,
I just found a DIY variable ND solution in researching filters and thought I would share it here. The basic idea is to use a circular polarizer and then stack a linear polarizer on top to creat a variable ND filter!
Link: http://digital-photography-school.com/create-your-own-variable-neutral-density-filter
I'm curious to hear what you think.
E
Here is the response from the PM you sent me. Hope this helps for you and everyone else, kind of explain how it works.
I had seen that article a while back, and havn't gotten around to messing with it yet. Mostly because I sold all of my Circ Polarizers, and pretty much only shoot with ND's now. I have realized the gap in my bag though, and plan getting a new one. But probably not the Cokin one, as it is very expensive. Probably just a Hoya 77 screw in. In theory it should work exactly like described. Has to do with the way the polarizing elements are constructed between a circ and linear. Circs have a linear in the front of them, and then also a quarter wave plate. The plate converts the polarized light from the linear polarizer to circular polarized light TTL. So......because of the linear polarizer in the front of a circular polarizer, you are actually using two linear polarizers, and a circular polarizer when you do this. So if you rotate the "circular polarizer", when they are 180 degrees off of each other (phase shift), you are cutting the light transmission due to the way the polarizing elements. If the light wavelenghts arrive at a point 180 degrees out of phase, there is a cancellation, and little or no light gets through. I suppose I should throw this conversation into the thread, do you mind?
Here is the response from the PM you sent me. Hope this helps for you and everyone else, kind of explain how it works.
I had seen that article a while back, and havn't gotten around to messing with it yet. Mostly because I sold all of my Circ Polarizers, and pretty much only shoot with ND's now. I have realized the gap in my bag though, and plan getting a new one. But probably not the Cokin one, as it is very expensive. Probably just a Hoya 77 screw in. In theory it should work exactly like described. Has to do with the way the polarizing elements are constructed between a circ and linear. Circs have a linear in the front of them, and then also a quarter wave plate. The plate converts the polarized light from the linear polarizer to circular polarized light TTL. So......because of the linear polarizer in the front of a circular polarizer, you are actually using two linear polarizers, and a circular polarizer when you do this. So if you rotate the "circular polarizer", when they are 180 degrees off of each other (phase shift), you are cutting the light transmission due to the way the polarizing elements. If the light wavelenghts arrive at a point 180 degrees out of phase, there is a cancellation, and little or no light gets through. I suppose I should throw this conversation into the thread, do you mind?
-Andy
Thanks for the detailed response Andy. The article suggests this would create a variable ND filter but in reading your thoughts, it sounds like the effect may only be seen when the two filters are at exactly 180 degrees. What would happen at say 45, 90 or 135 degrees of separation?
E
Comments
Just got back from Canadian Rockies. http://www.dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=133049
http://danielplumer.com/
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Cool, I didn't know this about Singh Ray, but with the price of their filters to begin with, I can imagine how much they charge for custom work. I understand if someone wants it bad enough, they will pay for it, but for most, this maybe to much to spend on a setup. I tend to think you will use the soft edges in the rockies more than the hard edges, unless you can find a nice line to hide them with in your compositions.
-Andy
Great thread chaps! Many thanks for all the information!
I use a soft graphite pencil run around the threads of screw-in filters to help stop them binding…
Thanks again -
- Wil
NeilL, I dont recommend the dry teflon powder anymore, to big of a hassle, I read somewhere to just use some nose oil... in otherwords rub the threads on your nose and then thread it onto the lens... seems to help, I dont have lock up anymore...
but the bad news is I dropped my 77mm 3.0 B+W in the river the other day (never to be seen again) which leads to the good news...
x-pro system will be in my bag of stuff soon!
Andy, how big are the filters for the x-pro system anyway? B&H site didnt have any specs...
Nose oil!! I like that!:D:D:D - nose oil is plentiful (at least in this 40+degC where I am), and in my case much more plentiful than elbow grease, and cheap (there is another oil here which is still plentiful and cheap at 25c/gallon), though I wonder if overuse could lead to RSI??
Glad to hear you are 'progressing' in the filters area!
Best.
Neil
http://www.behance.net/brosepix
Thanks so much for all that information on filters. I had kind of been thread hopping and googling to get info, but here it is right in front of my nose--I obviously don't spend enough time on the Accessories forum.
I'm printing it as we speak as I will need to read it a few times.
Thanks again, I know that had to take up lots of your time.
_________
iF i REMEBER CORRECTLY.......alum housed filters will stick together even when just lightly screwed together.....you want the more expensive brass housed filters as they do not stick without over tightening..........
I ave cracked several screw ins trying to get them out of the lens and then apart..........I no longer do screw in filters.................
but not talking from experiance, the square filters will be a upgrade for me...!
Nose grease to lubricate filter threads is very old school - written about in the 1960s and i am certain goes back to the 19th century.
Brass threaded filters are much better, and much less likely to gall, than aluminum threaded filters. AL threads are just bad! The manufacturers know this, and that is why the brass ones do cost more, unfortunately. B&Ws are all brass I think, but not certain.
Anyone know of other brands with brass threads - Hoya perhaps?
Moderator of the Technique Forum and Finishing School on Dgrin
Moderator of the Technique Forum and Finishing School on Dgrin
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=workaround.jsp&A=details&Q=&sku=307103&is=REG
I need to find a 10 stop ND & 3 stop ND for this 4x6 rectangular filter kit !!!
also,
what else do I need? How the heck does this attach to the lens?
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/168524-REG/Cokin_CX477_X_Pro_77mm_Adapter_Ring.html
The holder is not too expensive, but they are proud of their adapters, aren't they?
Moderator of the Technique Forum and Finishing School on Dgrin
The Cokin X Pro holds 130mm by 170mm . I do not see 130mm x 170mm filters at SinghRay's website.
The Cokin Z Pro holds 4 x 6 in filters - ( 100mm by 150 mm ) SinghRay among others sells these. (I just added a 4 stop ND and a 2 stop GND to my kit.)
This is what I started with http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/387466-REG/Cokin_CU961_Z_Pro_Grad_Filter_Kit.html This kit ends up as a nylon box that measures 6 in by 7.5 in by 4 inches, that I carabiner to my back pack. The X Pro system will be even larger I suspect
If you are shooting with the 17 TSE you may want the X Pro system.
Moderator of the Technique Forum and Finishing School on Dgrin
Great post! Thanks for taking the time to put it together. A couple of quick questions. I'm thinking of picking up the Cokin Z-pro series as I will be using this mostly on my Canon 10-22 and 17-55 (both are 77mm filter size). So the questions:
Is it practical/reasonable to only get the one adapter ring?
Have you noticed any problems where the white print on the adapter ring gets reflected back onto the filter (and ends up in the final image)? Saw this as a complaint on Amazon.
Have you had any issues with the protruding pins impeding the position of the filter? Read about that complaint in this blog (link)
Finally, any thoughts on buying the Cokin Z-pro GND kit (link)
Thanks again,
E
My site | Non-MHD Landscapes |Google+ | Twitter | Facebook | Smugmug photos
Not a problem, and glad it was useful
Yes it is practical, as long as you have step-up/down rings for your different size stuff. I would buy the biggest size ring, and step it down if you need it for a bunch of different lenses. I only shoot with one lens for landscapes, so I only have a 77. Also, here is what I did for the white paint on the ring. I sharpied it. Worked okay, but some flat black model paint might work better. And with a ten stop filter, I see reflection no matter what. It has to do with light getting into the space left between the filter and the lens/holder when using really dark ND's (IE a ten stop) There is more light emited through that space between the filter and holder in 1 second that there is directly through the filter itself. If you hold a 10 stop up you can barely see light through them. Basically the light goes through the space, and reflects off the filter ring, onto the filter, and then you get the reflection of the filter ring and holder into the filter, and then reflected onto the lens (and into you picture.) So you have to find a way to block that light coming in. Either a black card, or a black glove, or something. I almost recommend a Hoya screw in 10 stop, and then use a cokin setup in front of it for any grads you want to use with it. Then the light can't get in. I should have done this originally, and now will probably go back to a screw in for my 10 stop.
As far as the pins, they are plastic pins that are there to keep the square filters from falling out onto the ground. If the pins get in the way I just bend the filter (rectangle grad ND's) a bit, and slide it over them and position it. There is enough tension from the pins and the holder to keep it in there. The people on Amazon need to learn how to adapt. They don't think outside of the box.
My thoughts on the kit are this. Buy Hi-Tech Z-Pro size filters (100mm), and then get Cokin Z-Pro Holder. It holds Hi Techs just fine, and costs less than the Hi-Tech Holder. Check out 2filter.com for Hi-Tech stuff. Hi-Techs are better optical quality. (Less color casts)
-Andy
Go to Formatt.co.uk. Check out the Hi-Tech line of filters. You can get a 10 stop rectangluar filter from them, but you have to order it directly. I do recommend that you just buy a 10 stop Hoya screw in though, due to reflections caused by light coming in through the space in the top between the filter and the holder. You will see the reflection in the picture unless you block all other light coming into the filter.
See my posts just above here for a description of the problem
-Andy
100mm, 4X6 or 4X4 if you are talking solid ND (square) GND are rectangle.
So assuming I go with the Z-Pro holder and don't want 4x4" filters, is Hi-Tech 4x5" the way to go? Do I give up something with that size over 4x6"?
Lee seems really hard to get. B&H is always out.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take" - Wayne Gretzky
thanks Andy, light leakage, that was my next question! thanks for pointing that out!
I think I will take Jims advice and go with the pro-z and I will re-purchase a B+W 3.0 ND screw in...(man I still cant believe I dropped that filter in the river!)
I also have the Cokin Z-Pro ND Grad system and like it for the grad aspects. However I am finding that I prefer literally holding the grads as opposed to using the attachment.
Your assumption of it only affecting the closest to the lens filter is right, but I just slide the filter over the tabs anyway. The tabs won't scratch the filter, and you can bend it enough to slide it over the tabs when it is in the holder. So if you need to have a grad on the closest slot, you can do it, just beaware it could fall out easier this way, but the tabs tend to put a bit of tension on the filter so it stays in place. You can move the tabs in and out also.
-Andy
Also, if you want Lee, buy from 2filter.com. THey have stuff in stock, and are quick and do great work to get your stuff to you.
-Andy
I just found a DIY variable ND solution in researching filters and thought I would share it here. The basic idea is to use a circular polarizer and then stack a linear polarizer on top to creat a variable ND filter!
Link:
http://digital-photography-school.com/create-your-own-variable-neutral-density-filter
I'm curious to hear what you think.
E
My site | Non-MHD Landscapes |Google+ | Twitter | Facebook | Smugmug photos
Here is the response from the PM you sent me. Hope this helps for you and everyone else, kind of explain how it works.
I had seen that article a while back, and havn't gotten around to messing with it yet. Mostly because I sold all of my Circ Polarizers, and pretty much only shoot with ND's now. I have realized the gap in my bag though, and plan getting a new one. But probably not the Cokin one, as it is very expensive. Probably just a Hoya 77 screw in. In theory it should work exactly like described. Has to do with the way the polarizing elements are constructed between a circ and linear. Circs have a linear in the front of them, and then also a quarter wave plate. The plate converts the polarized light from the linear polarizer to circular polarized light TTL. So......because of the linear polarizer in the front of a circular polarizer, you are actually using two linear polarizers, and a circular polarizer when you do this. So if you rotate the "circular polarizer", when they are 180 degrees off of each other (phase shift), you are cutting the light transmission due to the way the polarizing elements. If the light wavelenghts arrive at a point 180 degrees out of phase, there is a cancellation, and little or no light gets through. I suppose I should throw this conversation into the thread, do you mind?
-Andy
Thanks for the detailed response Andy. The article suggests this would create a variable ND filter but in reading your thoughts, it sounds like the effect may only be seen when the two filters are at exactly 180 degrees. What would happen at say 45, 90 or 135 degrees of separation?
E
My site | Non-MHD Landscapes |Google+ | Twitter | Facebook | Smugmug photos