Does anyone know if the noise levels on the 7D will be significantly less on a higher ISO compared with the 40-50D models? (Sorry if asked and answered)
Does anyone know if the noise levels on the 7D will be significantly less on a higher ISO compared with the 40-50D models? (Sorry if asked and answered)
Partially answered in post 101 and 102 in that indications are that the 7D is somewhere close to 2/3 stop "more noisy" than the 5D2. By concatination, one could assume that the 7D is quite a bit better than the xxD series.
I'm afraid I have to agree with the other post, the camera does matter. As the owner of a XX0d/Rebel-class camera (that I am very happy with since it fits 98% of what I want to shoot) there have been pro situations where my camera stopped me. For example, I joined a friend in a studio but could not use the monolights because the Rebel-class body has no sync terminal. The UI and handling is clumsier, the flash sync speed is lower which affects flash vs ambient techniques, the focusing system isn't as good, etc. Again, I have no regrets about owning a "consumer" camera, but I certainly am aware of the situations in which it holds one back compared to if a "pro" body was in my hand.
Great photographers will do great work with any camera, but if you have a great camera, at least your equipment isn't holding you back or making you work harder than necessary. Nobody who is serious needs to put up with that. And so you get a pro body.
Yes, and as I said in the other forum on that topic, there is a connection between technology and imagination. As has been memorably demonstrated multiple times in our lifetimes, advances in technology have led to results that were unpredictable and previously unachievable. Better camera and related technology helps photographers see more, better and further, practically and in inspiration and imagination. The principle applies to the past as well as now and the future. The photographer greats of the past depended on their technology to 'see', imagine and achieve what they did.
Talent is certainly part of photography, as of any other human endeavor. However, talent is also developable, and specifically by the potential offered by technology. To say talent is supreme and aloof from technology is to indulge in damp-eyed folksy idealism. IMHO of course!:Drofl
I got to play around with a 7D the other night at a press event in NYC. Shutter speed was very fast, felt good in my hand. AF was quick and precise. Seems like a great prosumer sports camera. I had to set my Nikon down to play with it so they were giving me the evil eye, hehe.
I'm afraid I have to agree with the other post, the camera does matter. As the owner of a XX0d/Rebel-class camera (that I am very happy with since it fits 98% of what I want to shoot) there have been pro situations where my camera stopped me. For example, I joined a friend in a studio but could not use the monolights because the Rebel-class body has no sync terminal. The UI and handling is clumsier, the flash sync speed is lower which affects flash vs ambient techniques, the focusing system isn't as good, etc.
So you are saying it makes sense to buy a $1800 camera just because you would have to get a $10 sync adapter for the rebel? Besides if it was a studio I setup I'd have all radios that fit in any hotshoe.
Clumsier controls? Perhaps to some, but I know plenty who prefer it. I find even after 50,000 shots or more I still can't remember which wheel changes what. And to make many changes I have to see the top LCD which is usually a pain when mounted to a tripod. The big screen approach on the recent rebels is very nice.
Flash Sync??? Are you kidding. The rebel supports 1/250 The 5D will only do 1/200. The 1D III will only handle 1/250th in studio as well.
I just don't see your complaints as valid.
Canon Gear: 5D MkII, 30D, 85 1.2 L, 70-200 2.8 IS L, 17-40mm f4 L, 50 1.4, 580EX, 2x 580EXII, Canon 1.4x TC, 300 f4 IS L, 100mm 2.8 Macro, 100-400 IS L Other Gear: Olympus E-PL1, Pan 20 1.7, Fuji 3D Camera, Lensbaby 2.0, Tamron 28-75 2.8, Alien Bees lighting, CyberSyncs, Domke, HONL, FlipIt.
~ Gear Pictures
Bitchin' review by Michael Reichmann, a guy who closely mirrors my level of crotchetiness. Canon look like they're making a big stride. Wicked looking camera!
Bitchin' review by Michael Reichmann, a guy who closely mirrors my level of crotchetiness. Canon look like they're making a big stride. Wicked looking camera!
Nik -
If you remember I came to the Shootout last year (via Phoenix) with the 50D I got 3 days before they shipped. B+H didn't have them yet. Do you want me to get you one?
"Don't ask me what I think of you, I might not give the answer that you want me to. Oh well."
-Fleetwood Mac
Nik -
If you remember I came to the Shootout last year (via Phoenix) with the 50D I got 3 days before they shipped. B+H didn't have them yet. Do you want me to get you one?
Ryan,
If you remember I came to the Shootout last year (also via Phonenix) with the 50D having it for a couple of weeks already:-)
I do appreciate the offer but I think mine is in the mail somewhere... :-)
I have a 5D2 and a 1D2N. If the 7D reviews well for AF, I may replace my 1D with the 7D. I think 5D2 + 7D would be a killer combo for shooting everything... sports, action, kids, birds, portraits, low light, landscapes, artsy stuff. Well, that is until the 5D3 comes along, presumably with 7D AF. THAT will be the "one camera to rule them all".
-Jack
An "accurate" reproduction of a scene and a good photograph are often two different things.
I need to remind folks that the 7D may have improved AF versus the 50D and before (I would bet on it), but it will not be the speed of the Canon 1D/1Ds cameras.
One limitation the 7D appears to inherit from the 50D is the shutter mechanism, or at least it looks very similar.
According to "the-digital-picture.com" the 7D has the same Shutter Lag and Viewfinder Blackout as the 50D. Since AF is a component of Shutter Lag and the AF section is disabled during Blackout, so the improvement for AF "cannot" be as fast as the 1D MKIII (for instance) with a lag of 4-19ms less and a blackout of 20ms less.
The dual image processors will undoubtedly help as will the AF module improvements, but until the lag and and blackout times are improved there won't be a magnitude improvement in AF.
The Dual-Cross-type (center) SIR AF module of the 7D is also limited in sensitivity to lenses of f5.6 aperture or faster. The Area SIR AF of the 1D/1Ds has sensitivity to f8 apertures and can "see" any subject shape.
We all want something different. I've followed this 7D thread all the way through, learning as I go, and you hit on what I'm looking for. I don't pretend to understand the underlying fine tech points, don't need to, but you've posted before that Area SIR AF is top -of-the-line, and dim light AF is exactly where my biggest problem lies (aging eyes, manual touch-up not doable). Problem is in the never-never land between good light and the point where strobe assist automatically kicks in on my Oly E3, no manual override so can't force it. Practically everything I shoot is natural light, hand-held, wide open for lots of bokeh (see Flickr and SmugMug links), so tack-sharp subject focus is my saving nirvanah. I'll be due next year for a tech catch-up, have relatively minimal investment in Zuikos, so always looking at Canon/Nikon (as well as Oly) for where to go next. Oly's 4/3 format with in-box IS and fast glass serve me well, but at this point better semi-dim-light tack-sharp focus and low noise are emerging priorities. So all else being equal (which of course they never are), if APS-C or -H or FF showed itself with top-of-the-line AF and IS/VR, coupled with constant f/2.8 glass (or faster, like Oly's equiv 28-70 f/2) zooming somewhere in the equiv 24-85mm range (28-70 bare minimum), at a body priced in the $3,000 range, I'd probably go for it. It's not out there now, but the 7D seems to make strides in the right direction (still not Area SIR, as you say, but strides; and not FF, but APS-C probably fits my aging luggability factor). Just sort of dreaming here, C/N doesn't employ IS/VR in shorter zooms, and even with its advantage of in-box IS, I don't hear of AF and noise advances from the Oly arena. Always a frustration, but oh so sweet ....
See my work at http://www.flickr.com/photos/26525400@N04/sets/. Policy is to initially upload 10-20 images from each shoot, then a few from various of the in-process shoots each time I log on, until a shoot is completely uploaded.
Partially answered in post 101 and 102 in that indications are that the 7D is somewhere close to 2/3 stop "more noisy" than the 5D2. By concatination, one could assume that the 7D is quite a bit better than the xxD series.
Partially answered in post 101 and 102 in that indications are that the 7D is somewhere close to 2/3 stop "more noisy" than the 5D2. By concatination, one could assume that the 7D is quite a bit better than the xxD series.
Canon makes an inexpensive 18-55 f/4-5.6 with IS, and the excellent 17-55 f/2.8 IS.
The f/4-5.6 is way too slow. I've looked at the 17-55, would meet my speed and bare minimum FL needs (I'd miss 24-28mm, but would survive). Bigger issue would be the EF-S format, obviously would work on the 7D, but expect FF lies somewhere down the road. I've read only good things about the 17-55, that it's an L optic in disguise, and very workable for the hand held genre I shoot. Thanks for the thought.
See my work at http://www.flickr.com/photos/26525400@N04/sets/. Policy is to initially upload 10-20 images from each shoot, then a few from various of the in-process shoots each time I log on, until a shoot is completely uploaded.
Comparative shots are amazing at 6400! Like one of those "Thanks, I needed that" experiences.
See my work at http://www.flickr.com/photos/26525400@N04/sets/. Policy is to initially upload 10-20 images from each shoot, then a few from various of the in-process shoots each time I log on, until a shoot is completely uploaded.
The 7D has a bit more noise in the lower tones, less detail in the shadow areas and less dynamic range overall as distinguished by more "plasticky" tones. The 7D is still a pleasing rendition at ISO 6400 but the 5D MKII will look visibly better at larger sizes and will hold up best in really low light (low EV values).
In those 2 examples the 7D has more contrast, so the noise has more graininess as well. I suspect it could have been processed differently to produce a more similar image, but the 5D MKII is still the reigning champion in Canon cameras for low light except in terms of AF, where the 1Ds MKIII wins.
The 7D has a bit more noise in the lower tones, less detail in the shadow areas and less dynamic range overall as distinguished by more "plasticky" tones. The 7D is still a pleasing rendition at ISO 6400 but the 5D MKII will look visibly better at larger sizes and will hold up best in really low light (low EV values).
In those 2 examples the 7D has more contrast, so the noise has more graininess as well. I suspect it could have been processed differently to produce a more similar image, but the 5D MKII is still the reigning champion in Canon cameras for low light except in terms of AF, where the 1Ds MKIII wins.
I presume that there is the option to turn off NR in high ISO, and get the capture with its native noise? I'd much prefer to get as unprocessed an image as possible from the camera, and then decide what to do with it, under my control.
I presume that there is the option to turn off NR in high ISO, and get the capture with its native noise? I'd much prefer to get as unprocessed an image as possible from the camera, and then decide what to do with it, under my control.
Neil
Don't know about the 7D but the 50D does let you control the level of noise reduction and disable it entirely. Keep in mind that a camera could conceivably do a better job than we can if it is working from an internally created black frame. I don't know whether the 7D uses this method though.
Don't know about the 7D but the 50D does let you control the level of noise reduction and disable it entirely. Keep in mind that a camera could conceivably do a better job than we can if it is working from an internally created black frame. I don't know whether the 7D uses this method though.
Ah, yes, quite so, R! Unless that was delivered in plastic wrap!
Starting with the Canon 50D and 5D MKII, high-ISO NR is "always" applied to shadow areas and does result in less recoverable shadow detail from underexposure. I would presume that the 7D carries this forward. This applies even to RAW images. It is more important than ever to properly expose and to use Highlight Tone Priority (HTP) in high dynamic range situations as the HTP curves are applied before noise processing.
Nikon D300 and D3 also use a similar NR to the shadow regions and theirs is also applied in RAW.
Comments
You can also play around at this site: http://www.imaging-resource.com/IMCOMP/COMPS01.HTM
My Photos
Thoughts on photographing a wedding, How to post a picture, AF Microadjustments?, Light Scoop
Equipment List - Check my profile
Yes, and as I said in the other forum on that topic, there is a connection between technology and imagination. As has been memorably demonstrated multiple times in our lifetimes, advances in technology have led to results that were unpredictable and previously unachievable. Better camera and related technology helps photographers see more, better and further, practically and in inspiration and imagination. The principle applies to the past as well as now and the future. The photographer greats of the past depended on their technology to 'see', imagine and achieve what they did.
Talent is certainly part of photography, as of any other human endeavor. However, talent is also developable, and specifically by the potential offered by technology. To say talent is supreme and aloof from technology is to indulge in damp-eyed folksy idealism. IMHO of course!:D
Neil
http://www.behance.net/brosepix
http://www.robgalbraith.com/bins/content_page.asp?cid=7-10043-10270
:ivar
That would be nice. Thanks for the link.
Moderator of the Cameras and Accessories forums
So you are saying it makes sense to buy a $1800 camera just because you would have to get a $10 sync adapter for the rebel? Besides if it was a studio I setup I'd have all radios that fit in any hotshoe.
Clumsier controls? Perhaps to some, but I know plenty who prefer it. I find even after 50,000 shots or more I still can't remember which wheel changes what. And to make many changes I have to see the top LCD which is usually a pain when mounted to a tripod. The big screen approach on the recent rebels is very nice.
Flash Sync??? Are you kidding. The rebel supports 1/250 The 5D will only do 1/200. The 1D III will only handle 1/250th in studio as well.
I just don't see your complaints as valid.
Other Gear: Olympus E-PL1, Pan 20 1.7, Fuji 3D Camera, Lensbaby 2.0, Tamron 28-75 2.8, Alien Bees lighting, CyberSyncs, Domke, HONL, FlipIt.
~ Gear Pictures
www.tednghiem.com
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/cameras/7D-hands-on.shtml
Nik -
If you remember I came to the Shootout last year (via Phoenix) with the 50D I got 3 days before they shipped. B+H didn't have them yet. Do you want me to get you one?
-Fleetwood Mac
If you remember I came to the Shootout last year (also via Phonenix) with the 50D having it for a couple of weeks already:-)
I do appreciate the offer
Las Cruces Photographer / Las Cruces Wedding Photographer
Other site
An "accurate" reproduction of a scene and a good photograph are often two different things.
www.tednghiem.com
(PS I'm just about to order my 7D!!!! hehe:D
Neil
http://www.behance.net/brosepix
Canon makes an inexpensive 18-55 f/4-5.6 with IS, and the excellent 17-55 f/2.8 IS.
An "accurate" reproduction of a scene and a good photograph are often two different things.
I was reading over at dpreview and it looks like someone received their 7D today?
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1019&message=33150422
that is a cool site, Scott, thanks for posting.
Las Cruces Photographer / Las Cruces Wedding Photographer
Other site
to my eye, the 7d is every bit as good as the 5d mark II at ISO 6400
Agree or disagree?
this are from the web page sited above
7d
http://75.126.132.154/PRODS/E7D/FULLRES/E7DINBI06400.JPG
5d ii
http://75.126.132.154/PRODS/E5D2/FULLRES/E5D2INBI06400.JPG
Las Cruces Photographer / Las Cruces Wedding Photographer
Other site
The 7D has a bit more noise in the lower tones, less detail in the shadow areas and less dynamic range overall as distinguished by more "plasticky" tones. The 7D is still a pleasing rendition at ISO 6400 but the 5D MKII will look visibly better at larger sizes and will hold up best in really low light (low EV values).
In those 2 examples the 7D has more contrast, so the noise has more graininess as well. I suspect it could have been processed differently to produce a more similar image, but the 5D MKII is still the reigning champion in Canon cameras for low light except in terms of AF, where the 1Ds MKIII wins.
Moderator of the Cameras and Accessories forums
I presume that there is the option to turn off NR in high ISO, and get the capture with its native noise? I'd much prefer to get as unprocessed an image as possible from the camera, and then decide what to do with it, under my control.
Neil
http://www.behance.net/brosepix
Don't know about the 7D but the 50D does let you control the level of noise reduction and disable it entirely. Keep in mind that a camera could conceivably do a better job than we can if it is working from an internally created black frame. I don't know whether the 7D uses this method though.
Ah, yes, quite so, R! Unless that was delivered in plastic wrap!
Neil
http://www.behance.net/brosepix
Nikon D300 and D3 also use a similar NR to the shadow regions and theirs is also applied in RAW.
Moderator of the Cameras and Accessories forums