smugmug and Internet Explorer 5 get a divorce

onethumbonethumb Administrators Posts: 1,269 Major grins
edited July 7, 2005 in SmugMug Support
Read it and rejoice! :)

Comments? Concerns? Let's hear them.

Don
«1

Comments

  • wxwaxwxwax Registered Users Posts: 15,471 Major grins
    edited June 30, 2005
    I look forward to the changes. thumb.gif On a side note, I do find the dark blue type in your blog hard to read against the black background, I had to highlight it.
    Sid.
    Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis, ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam
    http://www.mcneel.com/users/jb/foghorn/ill_shut_up.au
  • JamesJWegJamesJWeg Registered Users Posts: 795 Major grins
    edited June 30, 2005
    Cool, I am suprised you waited this long, on a side note, your proof reader failed.

    "Safari is comes on every Mac."

    James.
    http://pics.jamesjweg.com
    http://www.jamesjweg.com
  • DavidTODavidTO Registered Users, Retired Mod Posts: 19,160 Major grins
    edited June 30, 2005
    onethumb wrote:
    Read it and rejoice! :)

    Comments? Concerns? Let's hear them.

    Don


    Since when are there blogs on smugmug? Is it something available to the masses?
    Moderator Emeritus
    Dgrin FAQ | Me | Workshops
  • NikolaiNikolai Registered Users Posts: 19,035 Major grins
    edited June 30, 2005
    Good riddance...
    onethumb wrote:
    Read it and rejoice! :)
    Comments? Concerns? Let's hear them.
    Don
    Smart decision!thumb.gif
    "May the f/stop be with you!"
  • Mike LaneMike Lane Registered Users Posts: 7,106 Major grins
    edited June 30, 2005
    Curse the smart filter here at work. Anyone want to give a lowly blocked guy a hint about what is going on?
    Y'all don't want to hear me, you just want to dance.

    http://photos.mikelanestudios.com/
  • flyingpylonflyingpylon Registered Users Posts: 260 Major grins
    edited June 30, 2005
    What's the actual percentage of IE 5 users on Smugmug? I'm not sure that if I were running a commercial site that I would so quickly dismiss a browser as recent and ubiquitous as IE 5. But I assume that you guys have a handle on your stats and plan to make things degrade gracefully enough for those users that you don't end up shooting yourselves in the foot with the additional support cases.

    I wonder what browsers Amazon designs for these days?
  • JamesJWegJamesJWeg Registered Users Posts: 795 Major grins
    edited June 30, 2005
    flyingpylon wrote:
    What's the actual percentage of IE 5 users on Smugmug? I'm not sure that if I were running a commercial site that I would so quickly dismiss a browser as recent and ubiquitous as IE 5. But I assume that you guys have a handle on your stats and plan to make things degrade gracefully enough for those users that you don't end up shooting yourselves in the foot with the additional support cases.

    I wonder what browsers Amazon designs for these days?
    As a network administrator I can tell you that there are MANY applications etc, which require IE6, in fact, very little still works well with IE5. It is no secret that I have not been supportive of every change SM has made, however this one is long overdue.

    James.
    http://pics.jamesjweg.com
    http://www.jamesjweg.com
  • onethumbonethumb Administrators Posts: 1,269 Major grins
    edited June 30, 2005
    JamesJWeg wrote:
    Cool, I am suprised you waited this long, on a side note, your proof reader failed.

    "Safari is comes on every Mac."

    James.

    You mean I failed. :)

    So-called "spell checkers" so often completely miss the words I type that I've given up using them. Combine that with the fact that I never proof-read.... :)

    Oops!

    Don
  • onethumbonethumb Administrators Posts: 1,269 Major grins
    edited June 30, 2005
    wxwax wrote:
    I look forward to the changes. thumb.gif On a side note, I do find the dark blue type in your blog hard to read against the black background, I had to highlight it.

    Aha! Improperly calibrated monitor! ;)

    Don
  • onethumbonethumb Administrators Posts: 1,269 Major grins
    edited June 30, 2005
    flyingpylon wrote:
    What's the actual percentage of IE 5 users on Smugmug? I'm not sure that if I were running a commercial site that I would so quickly dismiss a browser as recent and ubiquitous as IE 5. But I assume that you guys have a handle on your stats and plan to make things degrade gracefully enough for those users that you don't end up shooting yourselves in the foot with the additional support cases.

    I wonder what browsers Amazon designs for these days?

    We're running at less than 4.5% usage including Mac OS 9 IE5.

    We spend more than 4.5% of our time writing crappy stuff to deal with IE5's lameness.

    Just wait till you see what we can do without it... :)

    (Now, if we could get rid of IE6, as well, we'd really be in the money. Firefox and Safari can do some amazing things).

    Don
  • DeeDee Registered Users Posts: 2,981 Major grins
    edited June 30, 2005
    Do tell...
    onethumb wrote:
    Firefox and Safari can do some amazing things).

    Don

    I use both, so am curious as to what the amazing things are. Sometimes I have to use IE5 if Firefox or Safari can't handle the site.
    http://www.deegolden.smugmug.com
    http://www.twitter.com/deegolden
  • onethumbonethumb Administrators Posts: 1,269 Major grins
    edited June 30, 2005
    Dee wrote:
    I use both, so am curious as to what the amazing things are. Sometimes I have to use IE5 if Firefox or Safari can't handle the site.

    FYI, the only sites I've ever seen that work in IE5 and don't in Firefox/Safari use non-standard HTML and CSS. In other words, they were written expressly for IE5, ignored all of the standards on the net, and just used Microsoft's incompatible "additions".

    There are a vast array of things that Firefox and Safari do, which IE6 should but doesn't. They have fully compliant CSS2 renderers, for example, so we can do all sorts of complex layouts (and awesome cobranding/cuztomization for our customers). Best of all, though, they support the use of 8-bit transparency PNGs, so we can have nice overlays of graphic elements.

    Every web developer on earth has been begging Microsoft to support these two things for the last 6 years - and it's finally paying off. IE7 beta will be out this summer, and supports both.

    Don
  • JamesJWegJamesJWeg Registered Users Posts: 795 Major grins
    edited June 30, 2005
    onethumb wrote:
    You mean I failed. :)

    So-called "spell checkers" so often completely miss the words I type that I've given up using them. Combine that with the fact that I never proof-read.... :)

    Oops!

    Don
    Awe, come on Don, I thought that was what you hired that hot blonde for.

    :hide

    James.
    http://pics.jamesjweg.com
    http://www.jamesjweg.com
  • Mac WriteMac Write Registered Users Posts: 208 Major grins
    edited June 30, 2005
    While your at it upgrade to vbulletin 3.0.7 (or be daring and 3.5 Beta). Why not just do a simple browser check? then you can support IE5 (What will OS 9 users use then) and still be bleeding edge. Oh bleeding edge that will be so cool.
    My Photos | Use this referral code and get $5 off your first year of Smugmug! PIKZSgEQUVtu2 or just click here
    Get busy living or get busy dying
    --Stephen King
  • onethumbonethumb Administrators Posts: 1,269 Major grins
    edited July 1, 2005
    Mac Write wrote:
    While your at it upgrade to vbulletin 3.0.7 (or be daring and 3.5 Beta). Why not just do a simple browser check? then you can support IE5 (What will OS 9 users use then) and still be bleeding edge. Oh bleeding edge that will be so cool.

    We have a limited amount of development time. (Everyone does, from Microsoft to smugmug).

    There are really neat features that 96.5% of my users would use and love.

    The other 4.5% (mostly) have free alternatives to join the other 96.5%.

    Finally, building a complete 2nd copy of the entire website, using a browser check, to support that 4.5% would take up more than 50% of the aforementioned precious time time (because IE5 is broken, and thus, requires more effort and time).

    So I think we're gonna skip the browser check and get right to the really neat features :)

    Don
  • Mac WriteMac Write Registered Users Posts: 208 Major grins
    edited July 1, 2005
    BTW can't you do the check on parts of the code only :D.

    What are the new features? I would love full page control and CSS control like Pbase :D:D:D:D:D
    My Photos | Use this referral code and get $5 off your first year of Smugmug! PIKZSgEQUVtu2 or just click here
    Get busy living or get busy dying
    --Stephen King
  • David_S85David_S85 Administrators Posts: 13,310 moderator
    edited July 1, 2005
    Don,

    What about IE5.5?
    My Smugmug
    "You miss 100% of the shots you don't take" - Wayne Gretzky
  • onethumbonethumb Administrators Posts: 1,269 Major grins
    edited July 1, 2005
    Mac Write wrote:
    BTW can't you do the check on parts of the code only :D.

    What are the new features? I would love full page control and CSS control like Pbase :D:D:D:D:D

    Every single part of smugmug will be IE5.x incompatible in the future, so "parts of the code" really means "the entire codebase". Anyone who's developed for IE5 can regale you with stories of the hacks needed to get it to behave. We're all excited we don't have to waste time doing them anymore.

    Wait, we don't offer full page control and CSS control? We've had this forever. What am I missing?

    Don
  • onethumbonethumb Administrators Posts: 1,269 Major grins
    edited July 1, 2005
    David_S85 wrote:
    Don,

    What about IE5.5?

    Bullet to the head. Had to put her down.

    Don
  • Mike LaneMike Lane Registered Users Posts: 7,106 Major grins
    edited July 1, 2005
    onethumb wrote:
    Every single part of smugmug will be IE5.x incompatible in the future, so "parts of the code" really means "the entire codebase". Anyone who's developed for IE5 can regale you with stories of the hacks needed to get it to behave. We're all excited we don't have to waste time doing them anymore.

    Wait, we don't offer full page control and CSS control? We've had this forever. What am I missing?

    Don
    You're missing complete control. I feel for you when you say you have to hack your code to get ie to behave because that's what I have to do to get my site to behave. I've been able to control about 95% of what I wanted to control (and it wasn't all that easy by the way) but that other 5% is beyond my reach either because the thing I want to change is associated with a class that something else that I don't want to change has (e.g. .headmd) or the thing I want to control is not associated with a class and is therefore out of my reach with the current cobranding setup (e.g. in the journal view the horizontal line between the pictures blends in with my background, I'd really like to make it 3px thick and color #202020 to fit in with my design). Also, I for one wouldn't use tables if I didn't have to (I'd use layers instead).

    Yeah, I've gotten pretty far and I do like what I've been able to do with my site (have a look http://www.mikelanephotography.com) but it shouldn't require so many round about "hacks" to make it work.
    Y'all don't want to hear me, you just want to dance.

    http://photos.mikelanestudios.com/
  • {JT}{JT} Registered Users Posts: 1,016 Major grins
    edited July 1, 2005
    Complete control is coming with 0% tables.
    Mike Lane wrote:
    You're missing complete control. I feel for you when you say you have to hack your code to get ie to behave because that's what I have to do to get my site to behave. I've been able to control about 95% of what I wanted to control (and it wasn't all that easy by the way) but that other 5% is beyond my reach either because the thing I want to change is associated with a class that something else that I don't want to change has (e.g. .headmd) or the thing I want to control is not associated with a class and is therefore out of my reach with the current cobranding setup (e.g. in the journal view the horizontal line between the pictures blends in with my background, I'd really like to make it 3px thick and color #202020 to fit in with my design). Also, I for one wouldn't use tables if I didn't have to (I'd use layers instead).

    Yeah, I've gotten pretty far and I do like what I've been able to do with my site (have a look http://www.mikelanephotography.com) but it shouldn't require so many round about "hacks" to make it work.
  • Mike LaneMike Lane Registered Users Posts: 7,106 Major grins
    edited July 1, 2005
    {JT} wrote:
    Complete control is coming with 0% tables.
    Don't tease me...clap.gif
    Y'all don't want to hear me, you just want to dance.

    http://photos.mikelanestudios.com/
  • wxwaxwxwax Registered Users Posts: 15,471 Major grins
    edited July 1, 2005
    onethumb wrote:
    Aha! Improperly calibrated monitor! ;)

    Don
    umph.gif

    naughty.gif No choice at work. Me and tens of thousands of others, I'm sure.
    Sid.
    Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis, ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam
    http://www.mcneel.com/users/jb/foghorn/ill_shut_up.au
  • onethumbonethumb Administrators Posts: 1,269 Major grins
    edited July 2, 2005
    wxwax wrote:
    umph.gif

    naughty.gif No choice at work. Me and tens of thousands of others, I'm sure.

    Blame JT! I always do!

    Don
  • Mac WriteMac Write Registered Users Posts: 208 Major grins
    edited July 2, 2005
    {JT} wrote:
    Complete control is coming with 0% tables.
    When. I can't wait to see you dump IE support, but am just concerned about that 5% (as Mac users are 5%). All my sites I work on now will say "Best Viewed With FireFox or Safari." No other browsers will be tested on :D:D:D:D:D.
    My Photos | Use this referral code and get $5 off your first year of Smugmug! PIKZSgEQUVtu2 or just click here
    Get busy living or get busy dying
    --Stephen King
  • BaldyBaldy Registered Users, Super Moderators Posts: 2,853 moderator
    edited July 2, 2005
    onethumb wrote:
    Blame JT! I always do!

    Don
    Good idea. My monitor is calibrated and the blue nearly vanishes when I hover. And it's darker than the smugmug blue when you don't hover. We converted the smugmug blue to a lighter shade because of the feedback about being hard to read.
    My Smug Mug
  • onethumbonethumb Administrators Posts: 1,269 Major grins
    edited July 6, 2005
    Mac Write wrote:
    When. I can't wait to see you dump IE support, but am just concerned about that 5% (as Mac users are 5%). All my sites I work on now will say "Best Viewed With FireFox or Safari." No other browsers will be tested on :D:D:D:D:D.

    We love Safari, and show more than 5% of the people browsing smugmug using it. I imagine a decent percentage of Mac OS X users are also using Firefox, so the Mac OS X installed base is probably even larger.

    We hate IE5, though. Since Safari and Firefox are both free and excellent for Mac OS X users, I think we're covered there.

    We show a maximum of 1% of the browsers at smugmug using Mac OS 9 or lower, and I'm afraid they'll be left out in the cold. But we can't devote tons of time and energy to something that 1% or less of our users use.

    Don
  • muddykneesmuddyknees Registered Users Posts: 181 Major grins
    edited July 7, 2005
    onethumb wrote:
    Every single part of smugmug will be IE5.x incompatible in the future, so "parts of the code" really means "the entire codebase". Anyone who's developed for IE5 can regale you with stories of the hacks needed to get it to behave. We're all excited we don't have to waste time doing them anymore.
    Don
    So even basic account browsing will break for IE5? :uhoh

    Hmm... I am involved in a group that I take a lot of photo's for that I post on smugmug. Someone in the group also happens to be revamping the group's website and running into some compatibility problems with IE5, so, I referred them to this thread as a reason to just not worry about IE5, but promptly learned that there are "quite a few" mac users in the group that are still running OS 9 and are thus stuck with IE5 as their "best choice" browser.

    So, If indeed my site will no longer work properly for those users, I may need to design my own "front end" ASAP to serve the photo's on smug from my other site. True, I've got a prototype with some features (map-based browsing) beyond what smug offers that I've been meaning to use to present photo's on smug, but in the near term I've got other priorities that I can't afford to rearrange.

    Gary

    Gary
    Gary http://muddyknees.smugmug.com
  • muddykneesmuddyknees Registered Users Posts: 181 Major grins
    edited July 7, 2005
    onethumb wrote:
    Every single part of smugmug will be IE5.x incompatible in the future, so "parts of the code" really means "the entire codebase". Anyone who's developed for IE5 can regale you with stories of the hacks needed to get it to behave. We're all excited we don't have to waste time doing them anymore.
    Don
    What are you going to do about smugmug account holders who are on OS 9?

    I know one member that I turned on to smugmug who I know is a mac user and may be still OS 9 - I've got a message to her to find out.

    Gary
    Gary http://muddyknees.smugmug.com
  • BodleyBodley Registered Users Posts: 766 Major grins
    edited July 7, 2005
    Am I missing something?
    Since IE6 is free what is the big deal to upgrade. The 1% - 5% of IE5 users can upgrade.

    Sorta like "Tuff-Love". It's for their own good. :D
    Greg
    "Tis better keep your mouth shut and be thought of as an idiot than to open your mouth and remove all doubt"
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