Wow ... Tom, that borders on abuse of the photographer! I'm surprised you stuck it out. I'm pretty sure I would have had words with the bride's side about how the photos were going to turn out - kind of give them some warning and manage their expectations and not just a little CYA. Kudos for your handling of that situation.
Wow ... Tom, that borders on abuse of the photographer! I'm surprised you stuck it out. I'm pretty sure I would have had words with the bride's side about how the photos were going to turn out - kind of give them some warning and manage their expectations and not just a little CYA. Kudos for your handling of that situation.
Thanks Scott! Oh, no doubt emotional abuse is uncalled for.
You're right, one would think a few words would be needed to CYA, but indeed it was so blatant that she (Grooms Mom) even gave ME words throughout the event to encourage me and thank me and I suppose to C her A~:D...but what do you do. I remembered who my client was... and The Lady would have had to fire me on the spot to make me not do my job! The others were obviously a PIA, but it is the client who counts.
And true that...the Golfing Cart photo is a winner!! Great idea!
Even though weddings are full of amazing photographic moments... they generally take place at the worst time of day, with a bunch of people trying to change things, with poor schedules, in an environment over which you have minimal, if any, control.
Anyone can make awesome wedding photographs on a overcast day with an amazing location and super-cooperative people. You really become a wedding photographer when you can do it at high noon on a cloudless day with people who hate your very guts.
So here is the biggest issue I've had with weddings. I've shot none! Long story short: Started off with photography as a hobby, and trying to turn it into a career. I've found literally hundreds of people who are willing to get their pictures taken in any style (TFCD), but I have no clue how to begin to get my first wedding. Of course I would do this at absolutely no charge to the B&G. Any advice? I'd really appreciate!
BTW LOOOOVE the picture you posted. Very creative!
So here is the biggest issue I've had with weddings. I've shot none! Long story short: Started off with photography as a hobby, and trying to turn it into a career. I've found literally hundreds of people who are willing to get their pictures taken in any style (TFCD), but I have no clue how to begin to get my first wedding. Of course I would do this at absolutely no charge to the B&G. Any advice? I'd really appreciate!
BTW LOOOOVE the picture you posted. Very creative!
This is going to sound very harsh. Sorry about that. Long story - short ....
If you are going to shoot weddings for the $$ rather than for the love of the event, you will quickly burn out. The money is seldom worth the down-sides of shooting weddings.
Get experience shooting. Shooting anything. Know the technical side inside and out. For example, and this is just a trivial example, if you can't do exposure conversions (what's the required ISO to convert from f/2.8, ISO 200, 1/15 ==> f/2.8, ??, 1/125) without taking off your shoes, you might need more experience.
Know your gear. I've, on occassion, had to find the right lens, mount it, attached flash bracket, cables, speedlights, modifier, etc - in near complete darkness. Can you change the settings on your cameras in the dark? How about without taking your eye from the viewfinder (though this is easier than it used to be)?
Learn all you can about how light behaves, how colors of light mix (or don't).
Learn how to light venues - there are no cookbook solutions to this as every venue is different. Learn to always ask the question of yourself, "What problems do I have that can be solved with additional light?"
Get good enough such that you don't have to do your first two or three for free. Find someone to second shoot for. To second for me, one must have the technical skills.
Like John said, read everything linked to in the Resources Sticky - there's a lot of solid gold advice in there.
more whining...the saga continues.....
I wanted to thank everyone again who responded for their support. I think this thread turned out to be valuable to a lot of people for different reasons.... Just thought I would throw out an update. I uploaded all of the pictures... almost 800 of them. The bride came back from the honeymoon and I sent her to her gallery. She said she loves the photos. I had reiterated the fact that I would offer her a bridal shoot since we had such a time constraint for the formals and that I didn't have any of her alone. Her comeback? No I don't think so but I would love for you to give me a book. Meaning an album that was not part of her package. She chose my basic... shoot and give a disc package..... and didn't want the bigger one I offer that includes a book. She can't possibly believe that I owe her anything....the lack of formals was not my fault. I have a pretty good contract that she signed about missed opportunity etc... due to lateness. I don't feel I owe her anything at all and designing an album and paying for the printing is not in my plans. I am too busy to deal with that at the moment. I haven't answered her. I also should tell you (sheepishly) that I haven't been paid yet either. Only a small retainer I took early on. She conveniently forgot the check when she came to the venue then left right away for her honeymoon. She says she will give it to me when I deliver the cd....ugh... do you smell something fishy here? WWYD?
Snady :thumb
my money well spent
Nikon D4, D3s, D3, D700, Nikkor 24-70, 70-200 2.8 vrII, 50mm 1.4, 85mm 1.4, 105mm macro, sigma fisheye, SB 800's and lots of other goodies!
Ugh, how horrible! I'd probably write her a very polite email saying that I am actually under no obligation to give her another shoot (see contract clause about missed opportunities) but that I'm offering it out of the goodness of my heart. It's up to her to take advantage of said shoot, but that is all I'm offering. If she'd like to purchase an album, I'd be happy to give her a quote.
Or something like that. I'd like to know what you say lol.
I would let her know that you have to receive the check before you release the CD. Perhaps you should have sent a friendly e-mail saying, "Your images are now ready to view online as soon as I receive payment." No, you absolutely don't owe her a book. You could ask if she wants to add a book a la carte and quote a price for that.
I know it's hard to do but it's time to get tough. Since she's turning down the offer of formals, then she has no rights to anything else. This isn't lets make a deal.
You have her photos, she has your money. She ponies up, you give her a CD. If she wants a book she can compensate you for it.
I know it's hard to do but it's time to get tough. Since she's turning down the offer of formals, then she has no rights to anything else. This isn't lets make a deal.
You have her photos, she has your money. She ponies up, you give her a CD. If she wants a book she can compensate you for it.
She hasn't PAID YOU? WHOA! Immediately take that gallery private NOW. I would not let any bride even see photos who hasn't paid for them. Actually, I would not even shoot a wedding unless I was paid in full before shooting. As a matter of fact, at this point, I would not give her a CD until the payment has cleared the bank.
My first wedding was completely STOLEN from me from my former website. Photos appeared on the web. Even with right click protection - it's possible to copy photos. If you haven't WATERMARKED them - hide them. NOW.
Yikes. You are in for a royal screwing with this client. You owe them nothing. It's time to be a grown up business person and follow your contract to the letter or be forewarned.
I wanted to thank everyone again who responded for their support. I think this thread turned out to be valuable to a lot of people for different reasons.... Just thought I would throw out an update. I uploaded all of the pictures... almost 800 of them. The bride came back from the honeymoon and I sent her to her gallery. She said she loves the photos. I had reiterated the fact that I would offer her a bridal shoot since we had such a time constraint for the formals and that I didn't have any of her alone. Her comeback? No I don't think so but I would love for you to give me a book. Meaning an album that was not part of her package. She chose my basic... shoot and give a disc package..... and didn't want the bigger one I offer that includes a book. She can't possibly believe that I owe her anything....the lack of formals was not my fault. I have a pretty good contract that she signed about missed opportunity etc... due to lateness. I don't feel I owe her anything at all and designing an album and paying for the printing is not in my plans. I am too busy to deal with that at the moment. I haven't answered her. I also should tell you (sheepishly) that I haven't been paid yet either. Only a small retainer I took early on. She conveniently forgot the check when she came to the venue then left right away for her honeymoon. She says she will give it to me when I deliver the cd....ugh... do you smell something fishy here? WWYD?
Ummmm .... two mistakes:
1. You can feel bad about something with out compounding the problem. Offering the bridal shoot to make up for not getting in all the formals - bad move. You were not at fault and you opened the door for negotiation. The book - that's a non-starter.
2. Giving the bride access to the photos before you got your money - bad idea. If she's so inclined to do so, what's left to encourage her to satisfy her obligations to you. Making the galleries private at this point is not really good enough. If she has a link into the galleries, she's in. What you need to do is put a password on the gallery(ies). Then you can let her know that she's back in when you get full payment for the work you've already done.
I think I have to agree with Kathy - I fear you're in for a couple of very painful lessons.
I wanted to thank everyone again who responded for their support. I think this thread turned out to be valuable to a lot of people for different reasons.... Just thought I would throw out an update. I uploaded all of the pictures... almost 800 of them. The bride came back from the honeymoon and I sent her to her gallery. She said she loves the photos. I had reiterated the fact that I would offer her a bridal shoot since we had such a time constraint for the formals and that I didn't have any of her alone. Her comeback? No I don't think so but I would love for you to give me a book. Meaning an album that was not part of her package. She chose my basic... shoot and give a disc package..... and didn't want the bigger one I offer that includes a book. She can't possibly believe that I owe her anything....the lack of formals was not my fault. I have a pretty good contract that she signed about missed opportunity etc... due to lateness. I don't feel I owe her anything at all and designing an album and paying for the printing is not in my plans. I am too busy to deal with that at the moment. I haven't answered her. I also should tell you (sheepishly) that I haven't been paid yet either. Only a small retainer I took early on. She conveniently forgot the check when she came to the venue then left right away for her honeymoon. She says she will give it to me when I deliver the cd....ugh... do you smell something fishy here? WWYD?
Ok, I can sympathize, You are wanting to compensate for what you feel were short comings of the wedding. Has the bride said anything to you about being disappointed about the backgrounds, or the lack of formals? Remember it's not always about us, it's about the bride, and if she was happy with the pictures that you were able to get, (which again were very nice) then offering her freebies is not necessary. Now, because you've already offered her a free service, she feels like you still owe her something, and well, she'd rather have the book!
I agree with the others, it's time to lock up the pictures and hope she hasn't already saved them for printing. Demand your money, very gently tell her the cost to her to add the book to her bill, telling her you'd gladly add that if she's interested, of course full prepayment required.
I also wanted to comment on the fact that you state in your contract the number of pictures that they walk away with. You may want to reconsider! In a consultation, you'll get that answer, and you can discuss it them. I always tell them that the more interaction, the more comfortable they are in front of the camera, the more pictures they'll get, an average that I think Scott Q uses is 30-50 per hour. It's dangerous to tell them how many you've shot during the wedding...more isn't always best! They hear, of I've shot about 1500 and think, WOW, I'm getting 1500 images, and when they don't...well...
Anyway, giving them an average based on the amount of time is a much safer way, for the photographer to give them an idea. Then there is nothing in your contract that may come back to bite you later on. You then also don't have to worry about cropping the same picture several different ways to sometimes make up for the lack of photos!
Best of luck with the bride, hope it all works out well! I wonder if her ears are burning!!! lol
I am going to offer a different direction here. Disclaimer: This may or may not be the best approach. I am simply providing you with an idea of how I see it and what I would do.
The last thing I want to do is get tough with the client. If I have to get tough then yes I will get tough, but I would hold off on that approach to begin with. It's not difficult to start soft and get tough, but it's much harder to start tough and back up. This will always leave a bad taste in the clients mouth.
First you know the mistake you made. You put yourself in a bad situation where a bride with out funds or perhaps scruples can take advantage of you.
Now your goal is to get paid and leave the bride happy with the outcome.
I would talk to her and explain that the offer for an additional photo shoot was made as an extra gift for her, and that there just isn't enough in the budget for a book. I would ask her if she would like me to design and add a book to the package, and if so we could get together and look at some samples and discuss the additional costs. If she goes for this you can let her know payment upfront is a requirement.
Since your behind the 8 ball so to speak why not go ahead and burn the CD / DVD, and schedule an exchange.
if you are only dealing via e-mail, long distance etc. then I would let her know that the CD / DVD is done and waiting to be mailed out just as soon as you receive payment.
If none of this works............then I would pull the images down, change the pass word and send her a bill.
The letter I would send along with the bill would be one of great disappointment and sadness after all the creative effort and work you put in to capture her day, to immortalize this for her, her family, her children, her grand children. I think the loss of these images far out ways any money that could possibly be saved by not honoring the contract.
If again if none of this works I would go to small claims court. The images you posted are absolutely professional quality and will stand up as such in a court of law.
I am going to offer a different direction here. Disclaimer: This may or may not be the best approach. I am simply providing you with an idea of how I see it and what I would do.
The last thing I want to do is get tough with the client. If I have to get tough then yes I will get tough, but I would hold off on that approach to begin with. It's not difficult to start soft and get tough, but it's much harder to start tough and back up. This will always leave a bad taste in the clients mouth.
First you know the mistake you made. You put yourself in a bad situation where a bride with out funds or perhaps scruples can take advantage of you.
Now your goal is to get paid and leave the bride happy with the outcome.
I would talk to her and explain that the offer for an additional photo shoot was made as an extra gift for her, and that there just isn't enough in the budget for a book. I would ask her if she would like me to design and add a book to the package, and if so we could get together and look at some samples and discuss the additional costs. If she goes for this you can let her know payment upfront is a requirement.
Since your behind the 8 ball so to speak why not go ahead and burn the CD / DVD, and schedule an exchange.
if you are only dealing via e-mail, long distance etc. then I would let her know that the CD / DVD is done and waiting to be mailed out just as soon as you receive payment.
If none of this works............then I would pull the images down, change the pass word and send her a bill.
The letter I would send along with the bill would be one of great disappointment and sadness after all the creative effort and work you put in to capture her day, to immortalize this for her, her family, her children, her grand children. I think the loss of these images far out ways any money that could possibly be saved by not honoring the contract.
If again if none of this works I would go to small claims court. The images you posted are absolutely professional quality and will stand up as such in a court of law.
I'll throw in my 2 cents, even though I think everyone here has directly answered the OP's concerns.
The first is that, of course your wedding contract should have paragraphs about needing full cooperation from everyone and not being liable in the event that anyone is uncooperative and you miss photos. There should also be paragraphs about accepting the possibly bad results due to restrictions of the officiant (no flash, etc).
However, in addition to that, during your consultation with the B&G, you should fully verbally spell out all of your expectations. For example, I tell my B&G's that, while they're there to get married and a wedding is not a photo shoot, I require a certain minimum amount of time to get certain shots and they have to accept the results if they're running late or are uncooperative and as a result, the pictures are not what they expect. I explain to them about how officiant limitations affect the photos. I make sure they leave with a full understanding that their cooperation and good spirit are required to get their shots and that anything less than a full uninterrupted hour between the ceremony and reception is too short to get everything.
Not having the B&G prepay in full is just crazy. I require a 50% retainer to be paid at the time the contract is signed, and the remaining 50% to be paid 2 weeks prior to wedding.
Anyway, something very important I've learned: If you look in wedding magazines or wedding photography books, they typically only show shots in beautiful locations with optimal lighting conditions. If these are your only reference materials, it can be hard to understand what you're supposed to do if the location isn't grand. However, it is possible. I've found that I can get very nice formals and artistic shots in the worst locations imaginable.
In case I get stuck shooting in a "hot pink" room, as the OP describes, or in awful fluorescent, I carry a full array of color gels for my flashes so that I can white balance in any situation.
Comments
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Thoughts on photographing a wedding, How to post a picture, AF Microadjustments?, Light Scoop
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I have to say that I really love that photo that you put up here! It is totally rad! Poor chap looks to be chased by the bride in the golf cart.
www.tednghiem.com
You're right, one would think a few words would be needed to CYA, but indeed it was so blatant that she (Grooms Mom) even gave ME words throughout the event to encourage me and thank me and I suppose to C her A~:D...but what do you do. I remembered who my client was... and The Lady would have had to fire me on the spot to make me not do my job! The others were obviously a PIA, but it is the client who counts.
And true that...the Golfing Cart photo is a winner!! Great idea!
So here is the biggest issue I've had with weddings.
BTW LOOOOVE
Do a search here for "first wedding"
Additionally, make sure to read this sticky: http://www.dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=114862
Here is a wedding website I created for a customer as a value-add. Comments appreciated.
Founding member of The Professional Photography Forum as well.
My Photos
Thoughts on photographing a wedding, How to post a picture, AF Microadjustments?, Light Scoop
Equipment List - Check my profile
I wanted to thank everyone again who responded for their support. I think this thread turned out to be valuable to a lot of people for different reasons.... Just thought I would throw out an update. I uploaded all of the pictures... almost 800 of them. The bride came back from the honeymoon and I sent her to her gallery. She said she loves the photos. I had reiterated the fact that I would offer her a bridal shoot since we had such a time constraint for the formals and that I didn't have any of her alone. Her comeback? No I don't think so but I would love for you to give me a book. Meaning an album that was not part of her package. She chose my basic... shoot and give a disc package..... and didn't want the bigger one I offer that includes a book. She can't possibly believe that I owe her anything....the lack of formals was not my fault. I have a pretty good contract that she signed about missed opportunity etc... due to lateness. I don't feel I owe her anything at all and designing an album and paying for the printing is not in my plans. I am too busy to deal with that at the moment. I haven't answered her. I also should tell you (sheepishly) that I haven't been paid yet either. Only a small retainer I took early on. She conveniently forgot the check when she came to the venue then left right away for her honeymoon. She says she will give it to me when I deliver the cd....ugh... do you smell something fishy here? WWYD?
Or something like that. I'd like to know what you say lol.
Good luck! Hope you get paid soon!
Houston Portrait Photographer
Children's Illustrator
Caroline
You have her photos, she has your money. She ponies up, you give her a CD. If she wants a book she can compensate you for it.
She hasn't PAID YOU? WHOA! Immediately take that gallery private NOW. I would not let any bride even see photos who hasn't paid for them. Actually, I would not even shoot a wedding unless I was paid in full before shooting. As a matter of fact, at this point, I would not give her a CD until the payment has cleared the bank.
My first wedding was completely STOLEN from me from my former website. Photos appeared on the web. Even with right click protection - it's possible to copy photos. If you haven't WATERMARKED them - hide them. NOW.
Yikes. You are in for a royal screwing with this client. You owe them nothing. It's time to be a grown up business person and follow your contract to the letter or be forewarned.
Flash Frozen Photography, Inc.
http://flashfrozenphotography.com
1. You can feel bad about something with out compounding the problem. Offering the bridal shoot to make up for not getting in all the formals - bad move. You were not at fault and you opened the door for negotiation. The book - that's a non-starter.
2. Giving the bride access to the photos before you got your money - bad idea. If she's so inclined to do so, what's left to encourage her to satisfy her obligations to you. Making the galleries private at this point is not really good enough. If she has a link into the galleries, she's in. What you need to do is put a password on the gallery(ies). Then you can let her know that she's back in when you get full payment for the work you've already done.
I think I have to agree with Kathy - I fear you're in for a couple of very painful lessons.
My Photos
Thoughts on photographing a wedding, How to post a picture, AF Microadjustments?, Light Scoop
Equipment List - Check my profile
Ok, I can sympathize, You are wanting to compensate for what you feel were short comings of the wedding. Has the bride said anything to you about being disappointed about the backgrounds, or the lack of formals? Remember it's not always about us, it's about the bride, and if she was happy with the pictures that you were able to get, (which again were very nice) then offering her freebies is not necessary. Now, because you've already offered her a free service, she feels like you still owe her something, and well, she'd rather have the book!
I agree with the others, it's time to lock up the pictures and hope she hasn't already saved them for printing. Demand your money, very gently tell her the cost to her to add the book to her bill, telling her you'd gladly add that if she's interested, of course full prepayment required.
I also wanted to comment on the fact that you state in your contract the number of pictures that they walk away with. You may want to reconsider! In a consultation, you'll get that answer, and you can discuss it them. I always tell them that the more interaction, the more comfortable they are in front of the camera, the more pictures they'll get, an average that I think Scott Q uses is 30-50 per hour. It's dangerous to tell them how many you've shot during the wedding...more isn't always best! They hear, of I've shot about 1500 and think, WOW, I'm getting 1500 images, and when they don't...well...
Anyway, giving them an average based on the amount of time is a much safer way, for the photographer to give them an idea. Then there is nothing in your contract that may come back to bite you later on. You then also don't have to worry about cropping the same picture several different ways to sometimes make up for the lack of photos!
Best of luck with the bride, hope it all works out well! I wonder if her ears are burning!!! lol
I am going to offer a different direction here. Disclaimer: This may or may not be the best approach. I am simply providing you with an idea of how I see it and what I would do.
The last thing I want to do is get tough with the client. If I have to get tough then yes I will get tough, but I would hold off on that approach to begin with. It's not difficult to start soft and get tough, but it's much harder to start tough and back up. This will always leave a bad taste in the clients mouth.
First you know the mistake you made. You put yourself in a bad situation where a bride with out funds or perhaps scruples can take advantage of you.
Now your goal is to get paid and leave the bride happy with the outcome.
I would talk to her and explain that the offer for an additional photo shoot was made as an extra gift for her, and that there just isn't enough in the budget for a book. I would ask her if she would like me to design and add a book to the package, and if so we could get together and look at some samples and discuss the additional costs. If she goes for this you can let her know payment upfront is a requirement.
Since your behind the 8 ball so to speak why not go ahead and burn the CD / DVD, and schedule an exchange.
if you are only dealing via e-mail, long distance etc. then I would let her know that the CD / DVD is done and waiting to be mailed out just as soon as you receive payment.
If none of this works............then I would pull the images down, change the pass word and send her a bill.
The letter I would send along with the bill would be one of great disappointment and sadness after all the creative effort and work you put in to capture her day, to immortalize this for her, her family, her children, her grand children. I think the loss of these images far out ways any money that could possibly be saved by not honoring the contract.
If again if none of this works I would go to small claims court. The images you posted are absolutely professional quality and will stand up as such in a court of law.
Them's me thoughts.
Sam
Very nice way to handle the situation.
My Photos
Thoughts on photographing a wedding, How to post a picture, AF Microadjustments?, Light Scoop
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I'll throw in my 2 cents, even though I think everyone here has directly answered the OP's concerns.
The first is that, of course your wedding contract should have paragraphs about needing full cooperation from everyone and not being liable in the event that anyone is uncooperative and you miss photos. There should also be paragraphs about accepting the possibly bad results due to restrictions of the officiant (no flash, etc).
However, in addition to that, during your consultation with the B&G, you should fully verbally spell out all of your expectations. For example, I tell my B&G's that, while they're there to get married and a wedding is not a photo shoot, I require a certain minimum amount of time to get certain shots and they have to accept the results if they're running late or are uncooperative and as a result, the pictures are not what they expect. I explain to them about how officiant limitations affect the photos. I make sure they leave with a full understanding that their cooperation and good spirit are required to get their shots and that anything less than a full uninterrupted hour between the ceremony and reception is too short to get everything.
Not having the B&G prepay in full is just crazy. I require a 50% retainer to be paid at the time the contract is signed, and the remaining 50% to be paid 2 weeks prior to wedding.
Anyway, something very important I've learned: If you look in wedding magazines or wedding photography books, they typically only show shots in beautiful locations with optimal lighting conditions. If these are your only reference materials, it can be hard to understand what you're supposed to do if the location isn't grand. However, it is possible. I've found that I can get very nice formals and artistic shots in the worst locations imaginable.
In case I get stuck shooting in a "hot pink" room, as the OP describes, or in awful fluorescent, I carry a full array of color gels for my flashes so that I can white balance in any situation.