How well is this forum working?

rutt

Well, on the one hand it's great to have a place where I know B.D. will see and critique my posts. It's great not to have continuous arguments about whether PJ style works. And I can see the impact B.D. is having on the regulars here.

On the other hand, we are a much smaller community than People. As predicted, B.D. hangs out only here. Our impact beyond this forum is low. So? Is it worth discussing how well this is working.

lizzard_nyc

rutt wrote:

Well, on the one hand it's great to have a place where I know B.D. will see and critique my posts. It's great not to have continuous arguments about whether PJ style works. And I can see the impact B.D. is having on the regulars here.

On the other hand, we are a much smaller community than People. As predicted, B.D. hangs out only here. Our impact beyond this forum is low. So? Is it worth discussing how well this is working.

Rutt,
At first I wasn't sure how well it was working because I felt like everyone was waiting on B.D. to comment first--I think people have gotten more comfortable about posting replies now.

I have to tell you, B.D. has been seen lately in other forums including "cool shots" and "people", I know, he trashed my PP work one of my shots there:D .

I am still sometimes hesitant about where to put certain photos--I posted the color parade photos in people and the pre parade b&w in PJ and the color shots wound up getting moved to PJ, so not sure what the criteria is still.

I'd say the forum is working itself out. I like the C&C I get here, some of the PJ shots in "people" where just passed right over without comments, not even tips on why it's not working--so I'm glad the forum is here.

BTW--Damon told me on my pre parade photos that you were supposed to comment on why one of the shots was "Weegee"--still waiting on that comment.

Mr. Quiet

I drop in here every so often, and post some. I think it is working out. I don't think people should wait for B.D. to comment. I think if you want to say something, well, go ahead and say it, right?

I really don't think it matters where B.D. posts comments, only that he comments!

It is an honor to have the dear prof tear apart your pic, then turn around on the next one and say you did an awesome job! It is of course also an honor to have you here....si....pro...B.D.:D

thoth

I must say that I dig the new forum.

As I've grown in my photography I've developed a nearly sole interest in the type of work covered in this forum. In the People section this type of work is passed over by a huge majority of viewers and, if nothing else, the tons of views with no responses is disheartening at best. The view/response ratio here is much more friendly as we all know we're opening a candid shot of some kind to begin with.

Similarly, all of us who love these styles of photography don't have to look nearly as hard to find common ground. It seems to me that the quality of replies (or, rather, the quantity of quality replies) has increased dramatically since we've got the new forum. That's worth it's weight in gold as far as I'm concerned.

bdcolen

rutt wrote:

Well, on the one hand it's great to have a place where I know B.D. will see and critique my posts. It's great not to have continuous arguments about whether PJ style works. And I can see the impact B.D. is having on the regulars here.

On the other hand, we are a much smaller community than People. As predicted, B.D. hangs out only here. Our impact beyond this forum is low. So? Is it worth discussing how well this is working.

Since you asked...

I was really concerned before this forum was set up and I'm afraid my concerns have been borne out. The problem is that we are a very tiny community. Yes, there is some wonderful work being posted here. But I am still convinced that the real solution to what may have been seen as a problem with the People forum would be to set up a Poses and Cheescake Forum, to siphon off the "seniors," the cheesecake, and all the studio and studio-like stuff. Or, alternatively, to create a "Candids" forum, which would include Street, PJ, Documentary, and general candid photography of people. I believe that "Candids" would be more inviting to more people, and less limiting that Street and PJ. Maybe it should be Candids, Street and PJ. OR - maybe it should be called Real Life...

Anyway, this is a delightful forum, but I'd love to have someone find a way to expand it.

thoth

bdcolen wrote:

OR - maybe it should be called Real Life...

I'll second that suggestion. I still see a lot of things in the People forum that I feel belong here (like kids running in the yard and the like). I agree that "Candid" is a much better line in the sand than street/pj/etc.

adbsgicom

I prowl both, so split/non-split doesn't matter. The only nice thing is that when something is in this forum you know that the shot is just a passing glance or smile vs. something staged. So "candids" works nice as a larger net.

divamum

I check both, although I don't have any images to share which fit in here. But I do read it most days!

I think it's appropriate that it should be a subdivision of some kind for street/pj/documetary although I personally would have preferred this as a "child board" of people (like "Go Figure"). I will assume that the mods had a reason for separating it out entirely.

I suspect there are plenty of lurkers and semi-lurkers who check in here, though, so it may not be quite as small a community as you think

baldmountain

For me Street and PJ are completely different things. Photo Journalism is about recording an event for publication. Usually either a newspaper or magazine. In other words, Journalism using Photos.

Street is images taken in an urban setting. They can be a bit staged, but at some point they become on-location studio shots.

Since people bunch it in here, Documentary is purely candid shots to record the conditions of a particular environment usually for publication.

You'll notice I didn't include "tell a story" in any of these descriptions. Every picture should tell a story. If it doesn't, the image is a failure.

michswiss

Here's a quick, late night comment. Is the forum working yet? No, but it's incredibly young on dgrin. Will the forum work going forward? Yes, if we stick with it and encourage participation. The vast majority of people take candid and casual shots and I'd like to think most of them would like to understand a little about the how's and why's a particular shot moves them.

Ok Core Team. That's our hook. Having an AIR in the team is great, but let's stick it out as a group. Encourage candids. Help with advice to make a seven-year old's b-day images better. Still explore our fascination with humanity. I like the idea that this should be the "Real Life" forum.

As a side note and in my view, street, documentary, candid, PJ share some roots in portraying natural settings in some idealised fashion. Some of us practise it as best we can. Richard posted a link to Vivian Maeir's work. It seems she felt compelled to have a camera in her hand taking pictures constantly to the point that she didn't develop a vast quantity of her images. Let's share what we see.

OrvSal

Thanks for having this new thread as most of my potential offerings do not fit into the People catagory as well as it does in this one. A lot of the shots already shown here are making me think out of the box when I'm out and about. It may take a bit of time to get some more ready to share. Keep em coming!

Flyinggina

I like having this forum. While I don't post that many of my photos anywhere on dGrin , I feel more comfortable doing so here - At least in the case of photos that simply don't have another home.

I can confirm that there is nothing quite so disheartening as having one's post drift down the page on the People forum without any comment whatsoever. I've seen some outstanding work go practically unnoticed.

My guess is that there are more of us closet "real life" photographers out there.

So my vote is to go with this a bit longer.

Virginia

rutt

I like the idea of tuning the name of the forum and perhaps it's place. Look really, here's what we have:

1. People
   1. Posed and snapshots
   2. Nudes
2. Street & P.J.

Here is a different taxonomy that might make more sense:

1. People
   1. Candid (includes street, PJ, documentary, family snaps)
   2. Posed
      1. G rated
      2. R rated

But there are plenty of posed portraits by great street photographers. One of my favorites:


John Paul Satre photographed by Henri Cartier Bresson

Where would you put this?

I like objective categories. Fred Miranda has "Black and White Vision". Now that's a distinction I get.

rainbow

This is quickly becoming my favorite forum both for the quality and variety of posts and the quality and expertise of feedback.

So I did an incredibly scientific and accurate glance of some other forums and noted that we are not lacking on views and replies. People does have more, but landscapes, sports, and other cool shots do not appear to have more "views" per posting than this one does.:ivar This is good for such a nascent forum.

I believe the best issue raised is to encourage participation (per michswiss). This can be done by encouraging others to post AND for each of us to be a little more active in giving feedback to these posts.

Change it? No! Evolve it? Yes!

Richard

My sense is that this forum is doing well given the brief time it has been in business. Good pics, good criticism and discussion and some fun as well. To me, that sounds like success. So far, I haven't seen much that goes beyond traditional street shooting in capturing the urban environment--not many back alleys or dimly lit bars so far. That may come in time, .

We can argue till the cows come home about what the best classification scheme is here, and in fact, the mods did just that--which is why it took so long to get this forum up and running. Sure, there are other ways of organizing things, but from the comments above, I think there is agreement that splitting this forum off from People has been a positive move for most of us. Keep in mind that Dgrin is a small community, so it's not much of a problem to find your way around. And as I have said before, the taxonomy police will not break down anybody's door for posting in the "wrong" forum.

Looking forward, I would hope that we can attract new members with fresh perspectives. If you all make an effort to welcome n00bs, that will help. The forum will become whatever we make of it, so just keep shooting, posting and commenting and the future will take care of itself.

Mr. Quiet

sara505

I love this forum, in part because it is small. This is the first forum I've actually been able to connect to in D-Grin.

aporia

I've been reading this forum for the last few weeks and find the specific focus here very helpful. I think creating an umbrella "Candids" category that also includes Documentary photography could encourage more people to participate without losing the distinctive focus of the forum.

I understand the need to have a more "general" sub-category of candids that might not fit elsewhere, but would not want to lose the excellent focus here on thoughtful composition, practical exercises, and the excellent critique that make this forum unique.

bdcolen wrote:

Since you asked...

I was really concerned before this forum was set up and I'm afraid my concerns have been borne out. The problem is that we are a very tiny community. Yes, there is some wonderful work being posted here. But I am still convinced that the real solution to what may have been seen as a problem with the People forum would be to set up a Poses and Cheescake Forum, to siphon off the "seniors," the cheesecake, and all the studio and studio-like stuff. Or, alternatively, to create a "Candids" forum, which would include Street, PJ, Documentary, and general candid photography of people. I believe that "Candids" would be more inviting to more people, and less limiting that Street and PJ. Maybe it should be Candids, Street and PJ. OR - maybe it should be called Real Life...

Anyway, this is a delightful forum, but I'd love to have someone find a way to expand it.

bdcolen

MakeMeShutter wrote:

I like the forum.

I lurk here many times.

The best thread in my opinion was the one geared to help someone get over the fear of photographing people.
I am in that boat.

There seem to be so many laws and legal issues associated with photographing people and I really don't want to have to carry around or ask someone to sign a model release and then have to keep a filing cabinet filled with releases.

I know many folks don't sell their work or use them for photojournalism which is exceptable without release as I understand it.

The laws seem to be too vague and I use this as an excuse to not take pictures of people.

Am I being too cautious or are others not being cautious enough??????

With all the video cameras and security cameras out there taking peoples images without them even knowing, are we as photographers contributing to that with our paparazzi style of "street photography"?

What are the ethics associated with this form of shooting?

Just because we as photographers may have the right to take anyones image in public legally, does it make it ethical?

ok enough of me expressing my phobias of shooting people and trying to justify it in my mind.

Yes, you are worrying much too much about legalities - because if you are shooting in the U.S., the law is, by and large, on your side. Once again -
If you are in a public place you may shoot anyone doing anything, and you may exhibit or display - or sell - the photograph for artistic, journalistic, or editorial purposes, as long as you do not misrepresent it and do not use it for commercial purposes - i.e., sell it for advertising.

Angelo

MakeMeShutter wrote:

This is very encouraging, now I have to get out and start shooting.
No excuse now.

I will venture out tomorrow and have a go at this enticing aspect of photography.

Thanks

you might want to some lurking here: http://dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=97869

CavalierPhoto

I like it as is. I'm more or less a landscape photographer but my primary camera is IR so I've been spending most of my time in either Landscapes or Other Cool Shots. I don't shoot too many (if any) candids/portraits. Any of the people in my photos tend to be, at least I consider them to be, part of the "landscape". I live in and have been travelling to many more urban settings lately and have been exploring those settings as "landscapes" lately and enjoy it immensely. Given that, it's nice to know I've got some place like Street & PJ to learn and grow.

Zarathustra

I've been a lurker on this forum since the get go. I was unbelievably excited to see it put up, and have really enjoyed seeing the work that everyone has been exhibiting here. More than that, it has given me the guts to go out into the streets of Chicago and see what I can get. The advice given has helped immeasurably and the wonderful shots that I've seen here have been very inspiring. I was always afraid of pointing the camera at strangers based on a few bad experiences, but throwing a nifty-fifty on instead of one of my behemoth lenses really seems to put other people more at ease. Maybe it just puts myself at ease and people just don't pay me any mind. Who knows.

Either way, this forum has opened up a whole new facet of photography for me and I can't thank you all enough. I just hope that I can find the time and the nerve to participate here more often.

Zarathustra

HoofClix

I think this new forum is working well and is pretty cool. I'm a little surprised to find that I come here now before any of the others besides the challenges. When in here, I find that the stuff that moves me most is on the "Street" side rather than on the PJ side, but I'm not yet ready to define either side out-loud.

As for everyone waiting for BD to comment before they place their own, I don't know if that's true, but I'd imagine if it were set up that way, we'd have called it the BD Room, or something like that. I think even BD would agree that his opinion, though experienced, is but one amongst many, and that we shouldn't just try to mimic him or shoot what he would comment positively upon..

As for the legalities, I think that we are pretty safe in most situations, thought use your head. I wouldn't hang around an elementary schoolyard or at the entrance to the Pentagon, or expect to get some guff about it.

For me this genre is more about getting to feel comfortable with it's unsolicited nature than it is about the legalities. Yes, know the rules and dangers, but you don't have to put yourself in the most delicate of situations to get good stuff. One has to get over it! For instance, at my horse shows I am well known for shooting from inside the ring, mainly to get images than no one else could possibly get. When I get a new staff shooter and tell them to get in the ring, if they look at me with a blank stare I may have to coax them to get over it. Basically, they have to get over the discomfort of being in there, or I don't need them! So either get over it, or just accept enjoying what everyone else is taking.

torags

I think its working out. I would suggest you give it time to grow. I would post more , but I don't shoot people, as a general rule.

It's interesting to me to see the different disciplines. I think on this forum you will find some images that are just snap shot quality, but the capture rules.

That said, I enjoy visiting. It gave me an appreciation for B&W that I'm still trying to work on.

I also visit nikongear.com, they have an active PJ section.

adbsgicom

So, should candid end up in people or here as a general rule?

Richard

adbsgicom wrote:

So, should candid end up in people or here as a general rule?

Most of the candids you see on the People forum should stay there. Street candids belong here unless they are so tightly cropped that all you see is a face. Interior candids could go either place depending on the story they tell (or don't). If you really can't decide one way or the other, then it probably doesn't matter.

michswiss

adbsgicom wrote:

So, should candid end up in people or here as a general rule?

As a general rule, I think it depends on the intent of the photographer. I know serendipity occurs as there are so many amazing shots taken that even the camera-wielder was unaware of at the time. But my belief is that most "candid" shots are intentional as they have some environmental or interaction component.

For me, I would post #1 in this forum and #2 in People even though #1 is indoor at a birthday party and #2 was at the end of an evening of street shooting. And it has nothing to do with B&W v colour. He was mugging for the camera and she posed (there's a story behind that.) But I don't think most people would care.

1) Candid

2) People

Angelo

michswiss wrote:

As a general rule, I think it depends on the intent of the photographer. I know serendipity occurs as there are so many amazing shots taken that even the camera-wielder was unaware of at the time. But my belief is that most "candid" shots are intentional as they have some environmental or interaction component.

For me, I would post #1 in this forum and #2 in People even though #1 is indoor at a birthday party and #2 was at the end of an evening of street shooting. And it has nothing to do with B&W v colour. He was mugging for the camera and she posed (there's a story behind that.) But I don't think most people would care.

1) Candid 2) People

IMO they both go in PEOPLE. There's nothing about either that fits the definition of STREET or PJ

People are people and regardless of their location when photographed a portrait is still a portrait, candid or not.

STREET is supposed to be about capturing environmental shots that define a moment, with or without people, in the context of the activity surrounding the photographer and/or the subject.

PJ is about capturing current events as pertains to a particular story, usually newsworthy.

It seems to me discussions regarding the intent or content of this forum are premature. The forum is doing well and was an answer to numerous requests precisely because there are some among us who do not want to share space with portraits, class reunions, family gatherings, etc.

Expanding S&PJ to include candids will only set us back to mirroring PEOPLE.

.

bdcolen

HoofClix wrote:

As for everyone waiting for BD to comment before they place their own, I don't know if that's true, but I'd imagine if it were set up that way, we'd have called it the BD Room, or something like that. I think even BD would agree that his opinion, though experienced, is but one amongst many, and that we shouldn't just try to mimic him or shoot what he would comment positively upon..

Thank you, Mark! Very well said. In fact...I am going to make it a point from now on to avoid commenting on posts until a number of other people have already commented. :ivar :ivar

lizzard_nyc

Angelo wrote:

IMO they both go in PEOPLE. There's nothing about either that fits the definition of STREET or PJ

People are people and regardless of their location when photographed a portrait is still a portrait, candid or not.

STREET is supposed to be about capturing environmental shots that define a moment, with or without people, in the context of the activity surrounding the photographer and/or the subject.

PJ is about capturing current events as pertains to a particular story, usually newsworthy.

It seems to me discussions regarding the intent or content of this forum are premature. The forum is doing well and was an answer to numerous requests precisely because there are some among us who do not want to share space with portraits, class reunions, family gatherings, etc.

Expanding S&PJ to include candids will only set us back to mirroring PEOPLE.
.

Well now it's clear as mud!
If shot #1 were posted in "people" I can pretty much guarantee you not a soul would comment. Many candid shots dont' really get commented on in "people".

I figured anything "posed" goes in people, and all else here.

bdcolen

Angelo wrote:

IMO they both go in PEOPLE. There's nothing about either that fits the definition of STREET or PJ

People are people and regardless of their location when photographed a portrait is still a portrait, candid or not.

STREET is supposed to be about capturing environmental shots that define a moment, with or without people, in the context of the activity surrounding the photographer and/or the subject.

PJ is about capturing current events as pertains to a particular story, usually newsworthy.


Expanding S&PJ to include candids will only set us back to mirroring PEOPLE.

.

First, street photography is, by and large, people photography - Yes, there are some street images where the urban landscape is the subject. But by and large, street photography is candid photography of people in a public environment; it's more about an ethos, a look, a feel, than it is about urban or 'street' per se.

Second, there is so little candid photography in "People" that allowing it in here is hardly going to turn this into "People." A candid captured moment at a kitchen table is a lot closer to "street photography" than it is to what's in the "People" forum. And, let's not forget that "documentary" is supposed to be included in here, and what is that but candid photography, usually of people?